Should I Give Up on Literature?

[goldberry]

DD hates reading.  I have to fight constantly to get her to read anything.  (*sniff* this breaks my heart, but that's a whole other issue!)

 

She is starting 11th grade.  She will be taking two classes from Write at Home, essay and research paper.  She took some practice ACT/SAT tests, and not surprisingly did not do well on reading comprehension.  She is a SLOW reader, which contributes to her hating it.

 

So in addition to the Write at Home classes she is taking for writing, I plan to work with her on practice and strategies for reading comprehension on a regular basis.

 

Should I just give up on forcing her to read books?  (Did I really say that???)  She is a science kid who will likely go into a healthcare or science field.  I'm just wondering how much it is really worth to keep struggling with this battle.  

[EKS]

Do you know why she is a slow reader?  Does she have a learning disability?  Has she had a developmental vision exam?

 

If she has not been evaluated, I'd make that a priority.  There *are* things you can do even at her age that can help.

 

(I know this isn't answering your question exactly.  I'd still do some literature with her--as a read aloud or with audiobooks.  I'd have her focus her reading energy on fluency remediation.  If she is reading very slowly, her lack of fluency is very likely contributing to--if not actually causing--her problems with comprehension.)

[J-rap]

I've learned that some people just really aren't "into" reading.  That being said, I'd encourage her to find a genre of reading that she enjoys.  Four out of my five children loved reading, and one did not.  I finally discovered after years of searching for the right thing that she only enjoyed reading about things that were true.  So that meant biographies, and as she got older, informational type books.  She never got into fiction no matter how great it was.

[elegantlion]

We moved to audiobooks and kept up read alouds along with other very prioritized readings. Ds is not a big reader of fiction. He prefers non-fiction. I tried to determine what skills he might need in college and, honestly, he can get through his chosen degree without any lit classes. I'm still not sure how I feel about it all. His reading comprehension is good, he's just a slow reader. No disabilities either. 

 

We tried to read and enjoy some books together with some discussion, just to share stories. I also picked a few shorter titles to do the more thorough literature analysis. For instance, we used Lord of The Flies as one of those books. Easier reading, heavier topic, so many themes to explore. 

 

I opted to prioritize his writing over literature. He did a lot of critical thinking type classes (logic and argumentation) and being able to analyze things like current events topics helped his logic skills and critical readings. 

 

He likes manga, he has a respect for books and takes great care of the ones he owns. So, some part of the love of the  written word seeped in. He will probably never be a volume reader though. He has other talents though, so in the end, I didn't force as much literature as I hoped. 

[Guest puedosonar]

I have a child with a processing disorder who hates reading books. However, like your daughter, he is loves math and science. I have found that he loves reading science articles (probably because they are short and easier to digest than 300 page books.) So I would say, try something she is really interested in. It might not be Faulkner, but maybe Steven Hawkins...

[Lori D.]

"Hating to read" and "slow reader" could be symptoms of a potential LD that has managed to stay under the radar all these years, rather than just a personal preference. My first thought would be to get some expert evaluations to see if there are any issues that can be addressed to make reading easier, quicker, and hence, more enjoyable. Examples:

- vision problem -- glasses reduce eye strain and pain of reading

- vision tracking (convergence) issue that vision therapy would address

- "stealth dyslexia"

 

As far as giving up on Literature...

If you don't do any Literature, what will you do to complete the 4 credits of English required for admission to a 4-year university? The typical English credit is half Writing and half Literature. Often, 0.5 of 1.0 credit is accomplished with Public Speaking or Speech/Debate -- in place of the Writing portion of an English credit (not a substitute for the Literature portion). But even if you do that, you'll still be short in the Literature portion of the 11th and 12th grade English credits, unless DD has done a full credit's worth of Literature each in 9th and 10th grades...

 

What have been your goals with Literature in the past? What would be your goals for Literature right now?

- read the works traditionally taught in high school/college?

- provide exposure to/understanding of classic works that are frequently referenced in our culture?

- learn how to (and practice) literary analysis?

- springboard for discussions about "big ideas" of real life?

- use Literature as a way to learn through example, and apply to oneself, real life lessons?

 

And if some of these are still your goals, then I would not be giving up on Literature, but perhaps look for ways to do Literature in a different way (while also looking into evaluations and finding out if there's a possible hidden issue that can to be addressed to make reading better for the rest of DD's life).

 

- Perhaps do Literature aloud together

As audiobooks, or you read aloud, or as "popcorn style" ("you read a page, I read a page") and discuss as you go.

 

- Perhaps watch rather than read

Do the longer/harder works of Literature by watching a faithful film version, researching the author/times/work, and discussing/writing about the work. If still in the learning curve of how to do literary analysis, you might enjoy doing Movies as Literature together as the Lit. portion of your English credit next year.

 

- Focus on short works

Consider sticking with short works for this year as the Lit. portion of the English credit -- poems and short stories (and read them aloud together), and plays (for plays: watch them, and then just go back and read excerpts of key passages -- maybe even aloud as "reader theater"). That would help alleviate the slow reading by sticking with short works, AND, it gives you the opportunity to "go deep" with poetry, plays, and short stories. And, you still cover lots of key authors -- many of the great novelists also wrote great short stories.

 

 

:grouphug: Goldberry  :grouphug:  You are sounding weary. Sending you hugs and encouragement, and also hopes that you'll not only figure out how to best accomplish the Literature portion of your English credit, but also find out what's going on with DD's slow reading and dislike for reading, and find a way to make that better for her! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[texasmama]

:grouphug: Oh, don't give up.  Yes, audiobooks.  Read aloud to her.  Whatever it takes.

[Beircheart]

My two cents is to not give up on Lit. Bear in mind that Lit. isn't about just reading books. That's what Ms. Marple, Harry Potter, and  graphic novels (I remember when they were called comic books!) are for. True Lit. says something about humanity; our beauty of character as well as our foibles. Also, much of what civilization is today stems from Lit. serving as the model.

 

Praise of the characters' strengths or ridicule of ther idiocy is pretty important.  If your daughter wants to vent her frustration over the story, unrealistic characters, absolutley wacky author perspectives, or so on, let her. Just insist she back it up with examples and as good or better alternatives: "Well, how would have written Mr. Darcey to behave?" "Well, how about not act like a snobbish jerk!"

 

I've always thought books are best discussed.

 

Finally, I would be negligent if I didn't point out that not every assignment in school or in the workplace is enjoyable. That doesn't mean they can go undone. Echoing others who recommeded exploring root causes for the difficulty, I can't say simply avoiding the syptomatic requirement will result in long-term benefits to your daughter.  If, in the end, reading really isn't going to get the job done, fall back on audio books as a last resort. As I began with, where Lit. is concerned it is all about the ideas conveyed not slogging through words on a page. That still leaves the question of why getting through those words is such a chore to be answered.

 

[goldberry]

Do you know why she is a slow reader?  Does she have a learning disability?  Has she had a developmental vision exam?

 

If she has not been evaluated, I'd make that a priority.  There *are* things you can do even at her age that can help.

 

 

 

I don't know why she is a slow reader.  Maybe I should have said "slow compared to me"?  She and my husband read about the same, which seems very slow to me.  I never had her tested for reading because she never had problems that were noticeable.  She is diagnosed ADD though.

 

She scored in the 20th percentile on reading comprehension, but mostly because she only finished the first section of about four sections if I remember.  We have experimented with different genres and presentations (comic books, magazine articles, etc.)  She does better with shorter items predictably.  But we tried a short story unit and she still fought and clawed over that as well.  

[goldberry]

As far as giving up on Literature...

If you don't do any Literature, what will you do to complete the 4 credits of English required for admission to a 4-year university? The typical English credit is half Writing and half Literature. Often, 0.5 of 1.0 credit is accomplished with Public Speaking or Speech/Debate -- in place of the Writing portion of an English credit (not a substitute for the Literature portion). But even if you do that, you'll still be short in the Literature portion of the 11th and 12th grade English credits, unless DD has done a full credit's worth of Literature each in 9th and 10th grades...

 

Well, I was going to work with her on her reading comprehension, specifically with short excerpts like you see on the ACT/SAT.  I was planning on doing that a little bit each week.  Then just have her read maybe a couple of books of her choosing.  Her senior year she is taking Comp 101 at the community college.  

 

What have been your goals with Literature in the past? What would be your goals for Literature right now?

- read the works traditionally taught in high school/college?

- provide exposure to/understanding of classic works that are frequently referenced in our culture?

- learn how to (and practice) literary analysis?

- springboard for discussions about "big ideas" of real life?

- use Literature as a way to learn through example, and apply to oneself, real life lessons?

 

The two ideas I highlighted above have been my primary goals.  Because of that, I have tried very hard to pick books that meet those parameters but also are "not torture" for her.  So, the ideas about magazines and short articles doesn't really do as much meeting those goals.  Reading has been so much an enriching part of my life, I have trouble imagining a life without it.  But I know everyone is different.  

 

 

And if some of these are still your goals, then I would not be giving up on Literature, but perhaps look for ways to do Literature in a different way (while also looking into evaluations and finding out if there's a possible hidden issue that can to be addressed to make reading better for the rest of DD's life).

 

- Perhaps do Literature aloud together

As audiobooks, or you read aloud, or as "popcorn style" ("you read a page, I read a page") and discuss as you go.

 

- Perhaps watch rather than read

Do the longer/harder works of Literature by watching a faithful film version, researching the author/times/work, and discussing/writing about the work. If still in the learning curve of how to do literary analysis, you might enjoy doing Movies as Literature together as the Lit. portion of your English credit next year.

 

- Focus on short works

Consider sticking with short works for this year as the Lit. portion of the English credit -- poems and short stories (and read them aloud together), and plays (for plays: watch them, and then just go back and read excerpts of key passages -- maybe even aloud as "reader theater"). That would help alleviate the slow reading by sticking with short works, AND, it gives you the opportunity to "go deep" with poetry, plays, and short stories. And, you still cover lots of key authors -- many of the great novelists also wrote great short stories.

 

I appreciate the ideas.  We have tried most of these.  She doesn't care for audio books.  We have watched a few movies.  We've done short stories and some of the shorter works (Lord of the Flies, etc.)  The Crucible took about 3 months.  :(  I basically have to tell her, you are not doing anything else (math or science) until you sit down and do what I am asking and read this information.  That is why I'm wondering if it is really worth it to continue to force feed books into her, based on her goals compared to my goals.

 

Also, we don't have insurance, so a reading evaluation is probably not realistic right now.  But as I mentioned, I don't think she is inordinately slow, just slow-er.   

 

 

 

 

[goldberry]

My two cents is to not give up on Lit. Bear in mind that Lit. isn't about just reading books. That's what Ms. Marple, Harry Potter, and  graphic novels (I remember when they were called comic books!) are for. True Lit. says something about humanity; our beauty of character as well as our foibles. Also, much of what civilization is today stems from Lit. serving as the model.

 

 

 

That is what literature is to me, but I just don't see it communicating to her in that way, even when she reads it.  Because of how she fights it and the poor attitude towards it, she is not getting very much out of it.  So I am wondering what we are accomplishing.

[Julie of KY]

If she's not reading at what you suspect her potential is then I'd definitely look into getting her tested for possible learning difficulties (dyslexia, etc) and/or vision problems such as convergence insufficiency - both can cause a teen to baulk at doing much reading.

 

Meanwhile, don't give up on literature. Literature does not have to be read, it can be listened to - and in the  case of plays like Shakespeare, it can be watched. If she does end up with a dyslexia diagnosis, then there are services like Learning Ally where she can listen to human read books and textbooks.

 

Pick some literature - read some as a family (read-aloud), listen to some on audio-books, and pick a play to watch. All of these modes count toward literature as long as you are doing unabridged books.

[EKS]

Not finishing the reading comprehension test (and getting a bad score) and not having good reading comprehension are two different things.  It's important to understand if she is just slow but comprehending well or slow and *also* not comprehending.  Did she get the questions right (or mostly right) that she did answer?  If the answer is yes, you're going to want to take a different approach to remediation than if the answer is no.  

[Lori D.]

Well, I was going to work with her on her reading comprehension, specifically with short excerpts like you see on the ACT/SAT.  I was planning on doing that a little bit each week.  Then just have her read maybe a couple of books of her choosing.  Her senior year she is taking Comp 101 at the community college.  

 

I totally agree with you that working on reading comprehension needs to be the priority part of DD's English credit next year (and probably into 12th grade, too). She absolutely needs to be able to understand and absorb written material for ANY future college class (Math, Science, Social Science, as well as Literature). However, I'm not sure that just working on reading comprehension and reading a few books of her choosing in 11th grade is going to be all of the prep and scaffolding DD will need for that Comp 101 class in 12th grade.

 

Most college Composition 101 courses include reading of Literature (usually short stories), basic literary analysis, and writing reader responses to the stories -- so, an ability to understand/comprehend the basic plot (the "what happened"), but *also* the ability to interact with, and think about/analyze what is going on in the "sub-text" of the work and making personal connections, or seeing "big ideas" going on beyond just the plot.

 

I would definitely include discussion and literary analysis as part of the work done with those books of her choosing. And I'd suggest together going through something like How to Read Like a Professor to help get her seeing beyond just plot once she starts gaining some traction with the reading comprehension. Some students are extremely literal and black and white in their understanding, and can only see what is directly written as the plot -- that there is something subtle under the surface revealed through imagery, repetition, metaphor, etc. is absolutely a mystery to them, so sometimes a book like the one I mentioned helps link them up with the idea that some things have both a direct (denotation) meaning, and symbolic/indirect (connotation) meaning. 

 

 

What have been your goals with Literature in the past? What would be your goals for Literature right now?

- read the works traditionally taught in high school/college?

- provide exposure to/understanding of classic works that are frequently referenced in our culture?

- learn how to (and practice) literary analysis?

- springboard for discussions about "big ideas" of real life?

- use Literature as a way to learn through example, and apply to oneself, real life lessons?

 

The two ideas I highlighted above have been my primary goals...

 

...We have watched a few movies...

 

To meet those two goals, I'd make weekly movie night a priority. That would give you over 70 movies over 11th and 12th grades to watch and practice discussing -- to just get at real-life applications! :)

 

Watch versions of classic Literature, so at least she'll know the basic storylines and characters; and use the movies to talk about themes and "big ideas" of real life. Ask her what she thought of this character's choices and what the consequences were… what would DD do differently, or the same… would it have the same consequences in our current times… etc.

 

Also watch recent blockbusters and films that would be of high interest to DD and that have high discuss-ability -- some of the recent Marvel comic action films (choices, ethnics, etc.), sci-fi (politics of dystopias and totalitarian states, ethics of technology, etc.) -- even the Twilight series (  :ack2: ) if DD has high interest in those; a DF of mine endured the Twilight books and movies and she and her teen DD were able to have some significant and meaningful discussions about good vs. dysfunctional life choices, relationships, sexuality, where we get our sense of purpose, and what brings value/meaning in life.

 

 

We've done short stories and some of the shorter works (Lord of the Flies, etc.)  The Crucible took about 3 months.   :(  I basically have to tell her, you are not doing anything else (math or science) until you sit down and do what I am asking and read this information.  That is why I'm wondering if it is really worth it to continue to force feed books into her, based on her goals compared to my goals.

 

Also, we don't have insurance, so a reading evaluation is probably not realistic right now.  But as I mentioned, I don't think she is inordinately slow, just slow-er.  

 

 

You know your DD best and what works with her best, but I know that force and threats with DS#2 who had mild LDs and mild ADD absolutely would have been a big-time fail. Abstract math (rather than reading comprehension) was his area of tremendous dislike. Algebra was extremely difficult for him, and he was very slow at it. I sat with him, and walked through it with him. I made it clear that we were on the same team, and as his team mate I would be there for him all the way through. Being a whip cracker absolutely would not have worked with his personality or his learning style, especially when he was a teen… Just a thought, FWIW! :)

 

Reading aloud together, alternating the reading and discussing as you go would not be any slower than a slow reader, and it might be less "painful" to DD (reading/discussing all in one sitting). And *you* might be happier, knowing it's getting done, one 40 minute bite per day.

 

Also, those may not have been books of high interest to DD. Students with ADD are very distractible -- but have *very* high/very long levels of attention when it is something of high interest to them and is complex enough to present a challenge to them. Your idea of having DD read books of her choosing is a great one! :)

 

Perhaps this is the time to discuss with DD and get her input. She is probably about 16yo, and is starting to think ahead, or have an idea of what she might want to do in the future. Be realistic and lay the cards on the table:

- here's what credits need to happen for graduation, and what goes into the English credit; how can we work as a team to make that happen?

- here are the weak areas; you know yourself best -- what do you think would best help you move forward/improve?

- what are your future goals? what will it take to get there?

 

Wishing you and DD all the BEST! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[elegantlion]

You might also poke around on this site MsEffie. She has a lot of useful information and assignments. 

[goldberry]

You might also poke around on this site MsEffie. She has a lot of useful information and assignments. 

 

That site looks great!

 

And thank you to Lori, you always provide such specific and useful advice!  You are a great resource! 

[Beircheart]

My daughter and I have ADD without Hyperactivity. In HS mine went undiagnosed. Mine was/is relatively mild and at the time I was a bit of a punk so everyone just chalked it up to bad attitude. For me, I'd physically be reading the words but mentally I was absant so it was like I didn't read them at all. I did come up with a few strategies on my own back then so here is what got me through:

 

1) I read in lots of short bursts, stopping often to summarize in my head what I had just read. There were days I'd have to stop and sum up every 5 minutes.

 

2) If I read in long sessions I forced myself to re-read and re-read until I got it. There were days I read the same paragraph 4 or 5 times.

 

3) I read aloud. I made sure no one else could hear me. This led to other benefits down the road but at the time, yuk!

 

4) Perhaps the most helpful was that I read summaries such as cliff notes, spark, etc. before I read the material. There were two benefits to this. The first was that I had guide posts to help keep me aware of where I was in the story.  The second was, since I went to a brick and morter school, that if I didn't read the material I could skate by as if I did. I know, not really a benefit, unless you are 15 and struggling! And I did freely admit earlier to being a bit of a punk at that time of my life.

 

5) Maybe it was puberty causing the fluctuations but some days were definately worse than others (though that is still the case and I'm 50 now!). On many occasions I simply had to blow it off entirely because it just wasn't going to happen. So another important strategy I learned was to know when it was time to walk away, be OK with that, and not view it as some sort of failure. Unfortunately that made 5 1/2 necessary.

 

5 1/2) I had to suck it up and come back again and again until I got through it.

 

6) I split my time between stuff I had to read and stuff I wanted to read. It really helped to make it through stuff I had no interest at all in reading to have plots and characters elsewhere I actually found engaging.

 

Now the good news. I now love reading! I enjoy mysteries, classics, poetry, everything (except roomance; probably a guy-thing). It still takes me a month or maybe two to get through a book but, away from time-pressured assigned reading, who gives a hoot!? It is really enjoyable and since it does take a bit more effort for me it is a labour of love. As I grew older and became more self disciplined, less willing to cut myself slack (the Army helped with that!), and developing the attitude of this is who I am so deal with it, things became much easier. When I finally did go to college, I still worked and read very slow but accepted the extra effort as part of being me and did rather well.  Sure, the time-pressured requirements were still there and tests were a nightmare since I could never finish them, but even then I had figured out ways to meet the requirements on my own terms.  Everyone's situation is different so I would never presume to say since this is how it was for me this must be how it will go for everyone. Still, there is always hope your daughter will settle into her own reading groove in her and God's good time.

 

As for not enjoying Lit., and I say this in love and compassion, she's young. To be honest, most kids are not into Lit. and I often question its appropriateness for them. It is a chore, not a choice. I dig it now but at 15, 16, 17?  Oh Heck No! If the barbarians weren't quaffing ale and brawling, starships weren't blowing each other up, or rogues weren't wenching, I was not interested! On the other hand, seeds were sewn that grew into fruition later down the road.

[Lori D.]

My daughter and I have ADD without Hyperactivity... I did come up with a few strategies on my own back then so here is what got me through...

 

Thanks so much for sharing from your experiences of what worked for you, with not being interested in Lit., and finding reading to be a struggle due to ADD. Those are some *great* specific strategies! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[goldberry]

. For me, I'd physically be reading the words but mentally I was absant so it was like I didn't read them at all. 

 

 

Thank you for your great post!  This sentence is exactly what my daughter describes.  I will happily share your story and ideas with her.

[FLHomeschool2000]

I hated reading as well! Diagnosed as an adult with vision issues that require Therapy or prism glasses which explained why I kept thinking I needed glasses for 30 years.

 

That said--the moment the school system let me bail on literature, I could not run fast enough. I had a regular English class in 9th with, that I recall, only Romeo and Juliet plus other light reading, 2 strictly literature classes in 10th and 11th and DE English in 12th. That was comp courses only, ENC 1101 and 1102 in the state of Florida.

 

So I would say if she has at least 2 years of lit but pursues English in other legit ways, she may be fine. Even in college, I avoided lit. I did have to do more Gordon rule classes, but found not lit classes to satisfy that. One was a computers course (mostly history and impact on society and stuff) and the other was a music appreciation class.

 

Most colleges seem to want 4 years of English, so if you could accomplish the next 2 years in satisfying that requirement without Lit, she may be fine.

[jetzmama]

One friend had a remarkable turnaround in her dd's attitude toward reading when she allowed dd to watch the movie 1st, then read the book.  Discussions followed both.  Having the framework in mind already was helpful to her. 

[Aras]

"Hating to read" and "slow reader" could be symptoms of a potential LD that has managed to stay under the radar all these years, rather than just a personal preference. My first thought would be to get some expert evaluations to see if there are any issues that can be addressed to make reading easier, quicker, and hence, more enjoyable. Examples:

- vision problem -- glasses reduce eye strain and pain of reading

- vision tracking (convergence) issue that vision therapy would address

- "stealth dyslexia"

 

 

I don't usually come to this particular board because we are in logic stage, but thank you so much for the stealth dyslexia link, Lori. That is my daughter: slow reader, skips words and substitutes words when reading. She enjoyed reading k-2, but has struggled with chapter books. We had a lot of remediation to address when I took them out of public school 2 years ago. My son's reading skills have increased by leaps and bounds, but my daughter's skills have stagnated. I made an appointment to have her eyes checked and I will talk to her doctor about my concerns. 

[Guest jannajohnson891]

No, definitely, you shouldn't give up on literature, it helps person to develop and improve imagination, makes vocabulary wider and the speech more correct. When i think about people, who don't read, i imagine them speaking like "best write my essay for me make english". Maybe she just hasn't found the book she would like.

[Mom22ns]

I haven't read all the responses, although I did read your responses OP.

 

First, don't give up. To do something in a science field she will have to do lots of reading and she will need to comprehend what she reads! If you need to switch to non-fiction, that is fine, but don't let her quit reading.

 

One really easy suggestion is Wordly Wise. This may sound crazy, but every chapter contains a reading passage that they have to answer questions about. My oldest in particular (who does have LDs) really struggled with this and I credit working through WW for helping him master reading comprehension and particularly being able to pull what someone else wants from a passage. Use WW at a level where the vocabulary is not overly challenging. She'll improve her vocab and her ability to read and answer questions over a passage which is what ACT/SAT are looking for.

[Aretemama]

I also have a couple of slow readers. I have found that the sentence chunking practice in Sentence Composing for Middle School: A Worktext on Sentence Variety and Maturity by Don Killgallon to be very helpful.

 

When I was trying to figure out how to help DS with his speed for the ACT I had him read aloud for me, which I hadn't done in quite awhile. I noticed that as he read there were no breaks or inflection. This is a boy who has done lots of drama, speech, and debate! But, somehow when it came to "regular reading" he had slipped into a bad reading habit of just trying to get through it. I had to preface this book with, "A lot of adults found this difficult also...." so he wasn't insulted by the "middle school" label on the book. It didn't take a lot of practice in sentence chunking to help him increase his speed and comprehension. 

 

*edited because spacing came out weird....

[Junie]

What about letting her do a children's literature class?  The books would be much easier, but you could still find meaning/author voice/discussion in them.