Unhappy with Barton?

[frogger]

So I have a soon to be ten year old that is still reading at early second grade level. It seems like no matter how hard we try he can't get to the fluency stage much less be able to focus on the comprehension though he can sound out a lot of words and knows the 70 phonograms from Spell to Write and Read forwards and backwards. He just can't do it fast enough or easily enough to get a chance to focus on meaning.

 

I've been dwelling and dwelling on the super pricey Barton system. I'm really looking for a negative review. I always like to hear the negatives because it gives me an idea of whether those are things we can deal with or not. I seriously doubt that any system has absolutely no negatives.

 

Or perhaps you love Barton but are willing to share anything that might be considered a flaw or even just a learning preference issue with it.

 

I would really appreciate it.

 

 

 

 

 

[lyssaflin]

Barton was the only thing that worked for my dysgraphic/stealth dyslexic ds.  I would recommend it 100%.  BUT it is really boring.  I have to bribe him to get through lessons (usually skittles or m&ms).  The videos are even worse.  i actually fell asleep several times while trying to watch them.

[PeterPan]

Oh man, I LOVE the videos.  They're so slow and peaceful.  My brain is helter skelter, so I enjoy watching them and slowing down.   :D

 

I taught my dd to read with SWR and liked it a lot.  I never fathomed it could not work for someone, until ds came along.  Honestly, you are going to KICK yourself if you wait longer.  Going to Barton will SO expedite what you're trying to do.  Barton is everything SWR isn't.  It's everything SWR SHOULD have been and isn't.  It's SWR that needs the criticism, not Barton.

 

Flaws of Barton?  Um, it doesn't have built in "Do not eat chocolate today" reminders.  

 

I like my Quizlet compilations better than hers. (But they're free with the tutor support, so who's quibbling??)  

 

There seem to be a surprising number of drinking references.  They go over the head of my socially oblivious 6 yo, but I do keep having to explain to him what a KEG is, lol.  Keg seems to be a popular word in Barton.  I'm thinking that's to appeal to the older target audience.  Really though, that's still a plus for us.  Her word choices and sentence structures are much more sophisticated than other curricula, making them ideal for my 2E (4E) ds.

 

She doesn't have a Barton Batphone line.  Oh wait, yes she does!   :D  Seriously, you can pick up the phone and call her and get directly through to her.  It's the Barton Batphone line!  AND she answers emails.  She's my total hero.   :)

 

She needs to write a pre-Barton level that makes LIPS simpler to implement for people.  Personally I think it's good to merge Barton 1 and LIPS, but that's just my opinion.

 

Ok, there are NO, count them, NO hands-on physical things for my crazy kinesthetic learner, at least not in the tm. There are a few ideas in the back of the manual, but they aren't super kinesthetic like my ds would enjoy. Now there's SCADS of stuff in the tutor support section, all tidy and organized by level and whatnot.  If I were a better woman, I'd be in there often, gleaning ideas.  I'm just saying *I* tend to revert to just what is in the manual and don't get really pizzazzy, even though some movement and motion would be good for my ds.

 

She doesn't integrate any RAN/RAS work.  I'm guessing, just guessing, that you need to work on RAN/RAS and working memory to get the breakthrough you're wanting.  You need Barton, yes, but you also need to do the cognitive work.  Barton, just by the way it works, builds working memory.  Still, you can do more.  RAN/RAS you can definitely do.  These files are free and will get you started.  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Barton turned things around here, as well. It isn't perfect. Nothing is. But it helped where nothing else had. DD, especially, went from reading Clifford books (just barely) in 5th grade, having been in a brick and mortar school for 7 years with all kinds of tutoring, to reading Divergent 18 months later with Barton.

 

My first question to you is have you had any evaluations? There could be many underlying issues causing a delay in reading. Without knowing what the underlying factors are, it may be hard to find a successful path.

 

My second question is have you given the student screening and the tutor screening from Barton? Before even considering purchasing Barton, I would administer the screenings. They are free, relatively short, and pretty easy to do. You need to pass the tutor screening and your child needs to pass the student screening if you intend to be the one teaching this system. It is not a test of knowledge but of ability to basically hear the sounds necessary to function within the program. If your child cannot pass the screening, he may need remediation at a more basic level with something like LiPS before using something like Barton. Here is the link if you haven't seen it...

 

http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen

 

As for the price, yes it seems pricey. However, from my perspective it is a tremendous bargain. My kids are both dyslexic. The brick and mortar school they were in could not help them. We paid $35 an hour for tutoring through the school and it was useless. Then we hired a "dyslexia specialist" and paid over $800 in one month for specialized tutoring. It was also less than useless and caused my kids to cry. When we implemented Barton, things finally started to click for both kids. Are the videos boring? Yes. But they give a layman the ability to tutor without specialized training. And the TM is brilliantly done. I would pay that money again in a heartbeat. Does it solve every problem? No. Each child has their own strengths and weaknesses. It may help some more than others. DD has done much better with this program than DS. They just have different strengths and weaknesses.

 

This older thread might help. Although it started out being about LiPS we all ended up discussing Barton, both pros and cons. It is three pages long but the bulk of the Barton info is sprinkled through page 2 and 3, I believe. Haven't read it in a while but it has a lot of info (pros and cons) that might help you. Best wishes.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/494226-lips-by-lindamood/page-2?hl=lips%20ohelizabeth

[PeterPan]

OneStep, you realize how surreal that is to go back and read that thread from two years ago?  Wow.  We've come a long way, baby.

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep, you realize how surreal that is to go back and read that thread from two years ago? Wow. We've come a long way, baby.

Just went back and skimmed it. I agree. Way odd to read that thread again now. :)

[FairProspects]

I couldn't stand the videos and it moved way too slowly even for my more "classic" dyslexic. It would have been insanely slow for my older stealth dyslexic. They just didn't need such intensive intervention because they were compensating with whole word, top down reading quite a bit (neuropsych approved approach in this case - ds has a blending glitch, different from a guessing method that causes problems for some dyslexics). Morphology like with Rewards works better for us. We also use AAS which is OG phonics but moves at a bit faster pace. My youngest did Barton levels 1 & 2 and in the middle of 3 he jumped into reading and made the 2nd half completely redundant. He still struggles with fluency, but working on echo reading or Rewards & Six Minute Solution are much better avenues for him to gain fluency than Barton.

[merry gardens]

The first level is small. Really small. Like 1/10th the size one might expect for something that costly. If I hadn't been prepared for that, I would have been seriously disappointed. Plus, there's a screening one should do before starting level one, and if your child fails the screening, be prepared for disappointment. If your child does the remediation to get to the point of doing Barton level one and then takes a month or more to do level one, you might find yourself disappointed because it illustrates the extent of your child's struggle. My ds went through this all at age 8 and it took months; his twin sister passed the screen and got through the entire level in one afternoon.

 

Otherwise, by the later levels there are lots and lots of tiles. Find some kind of system to manage them so you don't have to start every lesson laying out all those tiles. Or buy the app, which wasn't available when we first started. ( except, I think I'd still go with tiles).

Losing tiles or having younger kids mess with costly materials is disturbing.

 

One of mine clearly needed all the remediation that Barton provided. Not everyone does, and I'm finding myself less motivated to continue going through all of that work for a child who's already reading. My six younger children have all had some lessons with Barton. I want to do it with them in theory, but in practice, I'm just not as motivated to do it for children reading at or above grade level. And while my others enjoyed doing Barton with me, my youngest (5) really doesn't like it. For a young child, it's not a "fun" as some of the other ways to learn how to read. It was developed for people with dyslexia, so it's not specifically for children.

[Lecka]

I bought Barton Level 1 and I found the videos helpful.  I never really used it, though.  I thought that at my son's level there was no need to worry about him guessing and I also thought he needed to still get the letter/letter sound connection ----- so I did not think it made sense to not use letters (vs the colored counters representing letter sounds).  I just used letter tiles for him.  I also wanted to practice his skills with basic words instead of nonsense words.  

 

He did not have any kind of sight word base, and he did not have a guessing habit.  

 

Is your son solid with sounding out?  

 

Do you know how his phonemic awareness is?  

 

If his phonemic awareness is weak, you have got to work on it.  Barton is known as an excellent way to work on phonemic awareness, but there are also other options.  If you have been possibly skipping phonemic awareness, or you have moved on but maybe his foundation is weak there, then that is something to work on.

 

If you think his phonemic awareness is good and he has basic decoding skills, then there are things out there for fluency for recognizing words.  A lot of times fluency is about reading passages smoothly -- but it can also mean just reading words smoothly.  I did not know about this program when I was working with my son, but I think it looks goodhttp://www.oxtonhouse.com/decoding_automaticity_and_reading_fluency.html.  Or  this http://www.oxtonhouse.com/reading_speed_drills.html.  I used another program (I used Abecedarian reading program for a while) and it included speed drills, and I saw them help, and then I could make my own.  There are a lot of options to make speed drills have a shorter or longer amount of words, one pattern or two patterns, etc.  It is basically a glorified "read a list of words" thing.  

 

It is not enough to do this, if there is not phonemic awareness and basic decoding.  But if there is and he is not moving forward -- then you may be looking for fluency.  Another program targeting fluency that I have read about ishttp://ganderpublishing.com/product/seeing-stars-kit.asp.  I managed to see a video of this program once.  It did not grab me for my son, but it is an option for fluency if you think it would be targeting his weak area.  

 

http://www.readingrockets.org/helping/target This is a website -- if you are not familiar with phonemic awareness, decoding, and fluency as terms -- might be worth reading through.  

 

If you have not worked on phonemic awareness -- then it is important to know, this is a really, really common problem.  A lot of non-dyslexia reading programs do not cover it adequately.  They cover it adequately for children who do not have any weakness in phonemic awareness, but they don't cover it enough for a child who does have a weakness.  When you use a program like Barton -- you are going to cover phonemic awareness very well.  Sometimes when a child has other good skills (that it sounds like your child has) then covering phonemic awareness lets them pull those other skills together and they make fast progress or a big jump, b/c that is what they need to pull all their other skills together.

 

If you have already been through phonemic awareness in a fairly intense way, and decoding, -- then I think you can look at fluency options.  

 

Overall -- fluency is included in Barton.  If you think maybe he needs phonemic awareness, then Barton is a good choice.  Especially as you do have an older child -- and a lot of phonemic awareness materials are aimed at pre-school.  And the pre-school stuff is not even necessarily going to be helpful.  I tried a lot of the pre-school stuff and my son just could not do it -- so he did not get anything out of it.  He had a really hard time with phonemic awareness, though.  But do not get discouraged with any materials saying "oh, just read your child a rhyming book."  That does not apply to a lot of kids.  It is great for the kids where it is helpful, but it is just an out people use sometimes "child struggling?  the parent must not have read him enough rhyming books!" Like -- let's just blame the parent and child.  So do not get sucked into anything like that (like I was, oops).  

 

I think Barton is a really good option, though.

 

Another con for me was I wanted my son to be able to "join his class" and so I did want him to be doing things like "silent e" earlier.  I also did not need him doing multi-syllable words so early.  

It is more efficient for an older child to learn in the Barton order, I believe, I believe that is why that order is used.  But I wanted my son to be in public school reading, and that means learning one-syllable words first including "silent e" type stuff, and not doing multi-syllable words as soon.  That was a negative *to me* of Barton, but I do not think it is an actual negative.  I just thought it was not what I wanted.  But my son was 5-6 when I was looking and I ordered Barton 1 during the end of his Kindergarten.  We got a dire report from his Kindergarten teacher and I realized how he really was behind in some skills that I did not think were a big deal before.  I was hoping for a quick boost for him and then being able to go into regular reading at school.  He did get into a regular classroom reading group half-way through 1st grade :) But it was not as simple as I had hoped, he still needed a lot of help.  

 

Edit:  Level 1 looked way out of my child's league when it came.  That is honestly the main reason I had to modify it instead of using it exact.  My son was in speech therapy at the same time and he just had a lot of trouble with phonemic awareness.  He was in speech therapy partly for "phonological processes" so he had trouble even at the level of identifying just a sound, not even the point of hearing sounds within words.  I was also trying to coordinate what I was doing with what he was doing in speech -- I did not work on sounds he had not covered in speech.  But I could do a lot with him using the sounds he was good at.  

 

Edit:  And my big overall -- I made a patchwork program for my son in a lot of ways.  It was never quite as easy as I thought it would be for him to read, there was always "one more thing" that was hard for him and needed to be worked on.  So it was never like "oh, I can just do this one thing, problem solved."  

 

But I think with Barton -- you do get that.  So I am a big supporter of Barton in that way.

 

But also since my son was getting reading instruction in school, too, I wanted to be able to pick things to work with that.  For Barton -- it is not going to go along with what is happening in a school reading program.  My son was still in that age group and he could benefit from school instruction once he got to a certain point.  

 

I did not want to pull him from school, as there were a lot of positives to school, and I was extremely busy/overwhelmed with my younger kids, too.  I did a lot with him during summers and on weekends, and tried for 30 minutes total on school nights (broken up).  

 

So this also becomes a negative of Barton *to me* but I don't think it is an actual flaw in Barton.  

[Lecka]

https://www.bartonreading.com/scope.html#scope

 

This is the scope and sequence.  

 

Between this and other common sequences ----- Barton does syllable division rules much earlier.  They do "6 reasons for a silent e" much later.  There are other things here and there, but those are two big ones.  

A lot of programs throw in all the one-syllable word stuff first, and Barton spreads that out more.  

 

So this is where I felt like I would try for the sequence that my son's school was going to follow.  

 

My son is reading well now!  I am not sure I did the right thing by not using Barton, though.  I don't really look back and think what I did was better.  I don't look back and think it was worse, either, though.  Mostly I did think it was only one thing (with his speech and phonemic awareness, I thought once he got past that, everything would fall into place for him) and he would catch up and be fine, but that never really happened.  He caught up, in a way, but he did not suddenly become a kid who picked up reading skills easily.  But now he is a good reader so I think the end point is the same.  

 

[imagine.more]

I love Barton, it's been a lifesaver for DD13. I'd recommend it in a heartbeat for any dyslexic or even just extremely struggling reader.

 

But here are some negatives I've found thus far (we're on Level 4)

 

1. As someone said above Level 1 looks very short and light for the price and that could have been alarming if I wasn't prepared for it and already desperate enough to try anything :) So be forewarned, it's good stuff and necessary but it does look too small at first. The rest of the levels are very different.

 

2. The exclusivity of some of the materials. Like needing to buy a legit copy and the regulation on who can buy tiles (only if you've bought a legit copy of that one Barton level), etc. Kinda annoying.

 

3. The videos are DULL! Like I take a week or more to watch them because I either fall asleep or just get bored and want to gouge my eyeballs out so I turn it off and do something more interesting....like laundry ;) I suggest multi-tasking while watching them if you are not dyslexic yourself. 

 

4. The pace of Level 3 is a bit slow and it starts to wear on tutor and student. My DH's aunt has used Barton and she has also had the experience of Level 3 kinda being a slog to get through. I'm excited to get into Level 4 and more meaty things. 

 

I would never recommend the full Barton program for a non-dyslexic and honestly it goes too slow for many 2E dyslexics who are highly gifted. A faster program like Wilson or Bowman or AAR would be better for a 2E student because they cover all the bases but move faster and are more flexible with pacing. 

 

But for a moderate-severely dyslexic child, or a child who has a lower IQ Barton is magic. It's gotten through to my daughter when no other program the schools or I tried did, even with her language deficiencies because of being HOH and ESL. It's extremely thorough and rigorous but Susan Barton really focuses on and models a positive and gentle attitude throughout the tutoring which is a good morale booster for a student who is accustomed to failing at reading. 

[Crimson Wife]

I read on another forum Susan Barton said not to do her program with a child who has expressive language delay (it's referenced in passing on her website but I know I've seen a longer explanation from her somewhere) :.

 

BUT there are plenty of posters here who've had success with Barton in their language-delayed kids. So I go back and forth on whether I should try Barton with my SN child vs. an O-G based program specifically designed for deaf/hard-of-hearing students like SMiLE or duBard Association Method.

 

Right now I'm working through LiPS and auditory training to get the phonemic discrimination sorted out. Also we have an appointment at the specialized neuropsych clinic this coming week and I want to see the results of that testing.

[MyLittleBears]

Barton was the only thing that worked for my dysgraphic/stealth dyslexic ds.  I would recommend it 100%.  BUT it is really boring.  I have to bribe him to get through lessons (usually skittles or m&ms).  The videos are even worse.  i actually fell asleep several times while trying to watch them.

 

 

 

 

This exactly! I could have written this post. This is the only program that has truly worked for my ds. I watch the videos alone after the kids go to bed and it always mellows me out to the point of unconsciousness. It should be marketed as a sleep med.  I still LOVE the program though, and really really appreciate the videos. Don't know what I'd do without them.

[PeterPan]

I read on another forum Susan Barton said not to do her program with a child who has expressive language delay (it's referenced in passing on her website but I know I've seen a longer explanation from her somewhere) :.

 

BUT there are plenty of posters here who've had success with Barton in their language-delayed kids. So I go back and forth on whether I should try Barton with my SN child vs. an O-G based program specifically designed for deaf/hard-of-hearing students like SMiLE or duBard Association Method.

 

Right now I'm working through LiPS and auditory training to get the phonemic discrimination sorted out. Also we have an appointment at the specialized neuropsych clinic this coming week and I want to see the results of that testing.

Crimson, my ds has crazy high vocabulary but quite low single sentence comprehension on the CELF5.  He didn't get a language delay, but it's a huge relative weakness (60+% spread).  For him, Barton is the bees' knees, because he understands most of the words, enjoys learning the ones he doesn't, and can use the grammatical challenge to clarify how he understands things.  He's also at the young end for it, being 6.  (Her target age is much higher, 10+ I think?)  Someone mentioned IQ, and again I think age factors in there. 

 

So I can totally see where if any of those components were missing language-wise and the dc was on the young end to boot it could be really, really disastrous.  I think the language is complex enough that it's entirely possible it would cause extreme frustration in a young for target age dc with a language delay.  It happens that the ways my ds is behind make it work, but I could totally see situations where it would not.  

 

I'm all in favor of diagnosis-specific materials if they exist, mercy.  Not my decision, but I'm just saying I could see where it (Barton) could go wrong for some kids.  Is there a reason the diagnosis-specific materials aren't your default choice?  Are they dramatically more expensive?  Or does it just seem safer to stay with the crowd?  There are actually so many good OG-based programs out there.  Just because Barton is the most common in homeschooling doesn't mean it's necessarily magically better than many of the others.  SandyKC had a list of them, and all were just fine, just fine.  I'm all about tools for connecting with our highly unusual kids.  (Apraxia is a 1:1000 diagnosis, just a bit unusual.)  I would think you'd be really glad to have the extra tools the specialty curriculum for the hearing impaired would provide.

[Crimson Wife]

 

I'm all in favor of diagnosis-specific materials if they exist, mercy.  Not my decision, but I'm just saying I could see where it (Barton) could go wrong for some kids.  Is there a reason the diagnosis-specific materials aren't your default choice?  Are they dramatically more expensive?  

 

They're actually cheaper to purchase the materials BUT they aren't as "open-and-go" as Barton with the DVD's. They are designed to be used by a teacher with special training, like Wilson or Slingerland. Furthermore, the training isn't local to me (SMiLE is in Vancouver, BC and duBard is in Mississippi). I don't have to make a decision right away because my DD needs to master phonemic discrimination via LiPS before she's going to get anywhere with a reading program.

[imagine.more]

Crimson Wife, I think it's definitely a valid point to look at language ability with Barton. Especially for a younger child it could not work for them if their IQ/Language Level was lower than average. I'd say if a child has a 6 year old's language ability they can do Barton, but that means a 6/7 year old who is delayed might not benefit from it because their language, to be delayed, would generally be at a 5 year old level or less. But for my language delayed 13 year old her language is at a 6 year old level exactly, so she squeaks by and does benefit just fine from it even though she has a language delay. If I'd tried back when she was 8 and had the language of a 4 year old I bet she'd not have benefited past Level Two of Barton honestly. 

 

I'd say finish the LiPS tutoring and see what her language level is at then. If it's equivalent roughly to that of a 6+ year old you might be more comfortable using Barton as it's more teacher-friendly. But if she's far below a 6 year old in expressive/receptive language then I think you could confidently say that Barton would not be the right thing for her and a more deaf-oriented curriculum would be better even if it was a lot more work or expense. Your bachelor's in SLP should help with your own ability to implement any O-G program and I'm confident you could easily learn the basics of O-G if you had just a bit of exposure to some training or materials you could read through online. 

[Heathermomster]

OP, I'm curious to know, has your child has been evaluated by a neuropsychologist?  What testing has been completed?  Does your child actually have a dyslexia diagnosis?

 

ETA: The Barton website has a free pretest that you can administer to determine whether your child is ready for Barton.  The resale value is also quite high.

 

 

[LizzyBee]

Another happy Barton customer here. These are not negatives, but just things to be aware of.

 

We did LIPS just long enough to get dd to a point where she could pass the Barton screening test, then we switched to Barton. Well, even with the LIPS preparation, Level 1 of Barton was incredibly difficult for my dd. Level 2 (with letters on the tiles instead of just colors) was much easier. 

 

Barton works, but it's a slow process for some kids. When my dd was 9 and we'd done LIPS/Barton for over 2 years, I was seriously starting to think my dd would never learn to read fluently. I remember being very discouraged. But by age 12, she was reading at grade level. It takes persistence.

 

Your child might hate Barton. On days that my dd particiularly didn't want to do Barton, I told she'd thank me some day. I told her she would even thank Susan some day. I sympathized with her because I knew it was hard and I knew that the brain re-wiring that is taking place is physically exhausting and even painful. But if she was going to learn to read, we had to push through. She's 13 now and doesn't read as much as my older two kids, but she does enjoy reading. 

 

When we first started Barton, we could only do 10 minutes at a time. My dd is severely dyslexic, so she hit the wall pretty quickly. It was a big deal when we worked up to a point where she could do an hour at a time. 

 

One thing that helped with the tedium was for her to teach me some days. This worked best after we finished a level and then reviewed the lessons before moving up to the next level. And of course, it only worked after she reached a certain point in her reading ability. 

 

I don't know what your child's background is, but my dd has an alphabet soup of diagnoses, and she needed occupational and speech therapy to go along with the right curriculum. She has graduated from all of her therapy, but she is an Irish dancer. Without that physical outlet and input, I suspect she'd still need OT. 

 

 

[LizzyBee]

 

 

She needs to write a pre-Barton level that makes LIPS simpler to implement for people.  Personally I think it's good to merge Barton 1 and LIPS, but that's just my opinion.

 

 

 

:hurray:  :iagree:

[Crimson Wife]

 

I'd say finish the LiPS tutoring and see what her language level is at then. If it's equivalent roughly to that of a 6+ year old you might be more comfortable using Barton as it's more teacher-friendly. But if she's far below a 6 year old in expressive/receptive language then I think you could confidently say that Barton would not be the right thing for her and a more deaf-oriented curriculum would be better even if it was a lot more work or expense. Your bachelor's in SLP should help with your own ability to implement any O-G program and I'm confident you could easily learn the basics of O-G if you had just a bit of exposure to some training or materials you could read through online. 

 

There's a possibility I might do my master's at the university that sponsors the duBard training. If that's the case, it'd be a no-brainer to invest in the training while I'm there (particularly since it would count towards ed therapy certification).

 

The other wrinkle is that it's too soon to tell yet the impact my DD's hearing aids will have on her language development. She's had them 2 weeks and they do seem to be helping her. But we just have to wait and see how much improvement (if any) there will be on her language.

[PeterPan]

They're actually cheaper to purchase the materials BUT they aren't as "open-and-go" as Barton with the DVD's. They are designed to be used by a teacher with special training, like Wilson or Slingerland. Furthermore, the training isn't local to me (SMiLE is in Vancouver, BC and duBard is in Mississippi). I don't have to make a decision right away because my DD needs to master phonemic discrimination via LiPS before she's going to get anywhere with a reading program.

Well I'll just make a leap here and suggest you go ahead and look into regular OG training, then go to the SMILE training.  That way you can add SMILE onto Barton if that makes it easier to teach.  There are people who do OG training who go on to use Barton.  

 

I just am thinking (assuming) SMILE adds something to the techniques, some tools that you'd be glad to have.  Even just a 2 week training session in OG would be enough to give you the jist to be ready for SMILE, seems to me.  I can't imagine going into a complex situation not knowing where things are heading.  I head so much off at the pass and preteach and can plant seeds because I know where stuff is going (because of my years doing SWR, etc.).  Maybe you already did those programs with other kids?  Anyways,that's why I'm thinking if you get *some* OG training and get the overview in your head, then get the SMILE training to be hearing impairment specific, then go back and use Barton (if you want) for day to day ease of use, it wouldn't be so crazy.  Circuitous, but not crazy.  You really can't learn too much with this stuff.  The more you learn the more you'll connect dots and see how you can connect the things you're doing in one program with another.  It will all integrate into your brain better.

 

Most people have a real WHOA, WHAT IN THE WORLD JUST HAPPENED TO MY BRAIN sorta mental explosion when they first hit OG-based programs.  Maybe you won't, but I'm just saying it can happen.  It's not overkill to do a 2 week online OG course, then hit the same material again with a new program.  Someone here was saying she, as a fully trained experienced tutor who works from scratch, spends 2 hours prepping for a 1 hour session.  I don't have time for that and I can see why you don't, whew.  But when you go into a program like Barton knowing your extra parameters (in my ds' case, avoid certain sounds), you can work on the fly, changing word lists, etc.  I can't imagine if I were having to do that kind of specialized altering AND learning how the program works, kwim?  Maybe I just hyperventilate easily.  I'm just saying going through the approach a few times from multiple perspectives will NOT be overkill.  It will make you a more confident teacher.

[MistyMountain]

I was wondering this too. I do not know if ds will need something like Barton or not or if something else will work and what that something else is. He is struggling to learn to read but has good phonemic awareness.

[frogger]

OP, I'm curious to know, has your child has been evaluated by a neuropsychologist?  What testing has been completed?  Does your child actually have a dyslexia diagnosis?

 

ETA: The Barton website has a free pretest that you can administer to determine whether your child is ready for Barton.  The resale value is also quite high.

 

I have talked with some evaluators but have not payed for a full evaluation from a neuropsychologist. I have some learning assessments scheduled for this month and depending on what I get out of that I will see about more testing. Honestly reading is his only problem that I can see. He has good phonological awareness. He can narrate stories back to me although not so well as his siblings. He was slower to listen to chapter books rather than picture books so there could be some issues with language in general.  He hears rhyming words fine and can come up with his own. He can tell me what sound comes at the beginning, middle, or end of a word.  He can hear the sounds and spell the words in Spell to Write and Read if they are phonograms that don't overlap with others. Of course, there is a lot of overlap in sounds and phonograms and that is honestly what confuses him. Which /o/ to use when there are so many choices for example. Is it /o/, /a/, /au/, /aw/, /ough/. Of course, I use the hand clues and tell him with the spelling but he can't decide which ones to use with reading either.  When he is reading he doesn't know if "beginning" starts with "be" or "beg" even though he does know about open and closed syllables. He just doesn't know where to break up each word or by the time he has figured it out he has forgotten what came earlier in the sentence or paragraph.

 

My first diversion was with vision. Getting his vision tested since he seemed to be struggling so hard and concentrating until he said he was sick to his stomach. Now that I know that isn't a problem I decided to move on with other testing and such. It is like he is puzzling out each word. You cannot focus on the meaning of what you are reading if you are puzzling out words.

 

I emailed Susan Barton and she sent me the assessments to see which level he is at. I guess that will be his reading lessons for now since there are a few pages for each level. Knowing he can easily sound out (even nonsense words) asy cvc words I'm guessing he will need to start at Level 3. We can handle boredom if it works and it's only one subject. I have a game based math (Rightstart) so it's not like he will do reading all day.  I don't want to waste anymore time though.

[geodob]

Hi Frogger,

 

You wrote that 'it is like he is puzzling out each word'?

Where I would suggest that he reading in the same way as we read 'nonsense words'?

With nonsense words, we have to read them, 'phoneme by phoneme' to work them out.

Identify the sound elements and put them together.

 

But with 'normal' reading, we see and recognize known words a whole.

It is only an unfamiliar word, that we might deconstruct it and put the sounds together?

 

Your example of his difficulty with "beginning" starts with "be" or "beg", highlights a constructive approach, of adding sounds together to form a word.

Rather than seeing and recognizing the word as a whole.

[Julie of KY]

Level 2 of Barton may be too easy for you, but that is where they start teaching the sounds. Initially kids are only taught ONE sound per letter. O makes the /au/ sound as in "olive". Everything they see at first follows these sounds. Eventually they add on some sight words and other sounds, but it is one step at a time and kids are taught how to figure out each sound at each step.

 

Negatives of Barton - boring, pricey, no chocolate.

 

Barton has been a lifesaver at my home.

[Lecka]

Geodob -- of course that is how it is for a mature reader.  But how is that helpful to say to a child who is not yet reading at that level?  Who is having a problem at the decoding level and has not moved on to fluency?  (Or worked on decoding and fluency at the same time.)  

 

This sounds like decoding (and fluency -- but primarily decoding) to me.  He does not have a good system for applying different sounds as he reads a word.  He does not have any fluency with any one sound that can help him move a little faster.  

 

There are kids where it is better to introduce one sound for a phonogram at a time.  It sounds like he is one of those kids.

 

I think you should look for a program where one sound at a time is introduced and kids get solid with that one sound.  Then later another sound is added and there is explicit practice in switching between the two sounds.  

 

My son was that way, too.  It was way too confusing for him.  It made him be lost, very very lost.  

 

So ---- does mean that he is a solid reader of words that have a short vowel sound?  Words like:  map, cup, ten, sip, tap, cot....  Can he read those words easily?  

 

Can he *reliably* sound those words out?  

 

If he is reading these kinds of words and using a wrong vowel sound, I think you need to just go back to all short vowels for a while.  Get a picture cue for him to show what sound he will be using for the vowel, or a key word if he has a key word.  (Aka -- either a picture of an apple, or the word "hat" with the a underlined, if he is really, really solid with the word hat.)  Have that out for him to refer to.  Tell him there will be no surprises -- for now he only needs to worry about one sound.  

 

Okay -- so that is easy enough, right?  

 

But moving on after that -- I think you need a program where they are going to introduce the phonics moving on in a way that is known to be less confusing to kids who are going to struggle with multiple sounds for a phonogram.  That means -- where they have spaced them through units in a certain way.

 

I will be honest -- it is harder than you would think to space them yourself.  I would go with a program.

 

I used Abecedarian for this, it is a program where they only introduce one sound at a time.  Then after two units of practicing with one sound, they add the next sound.  There are word sorts where you look at words with the same phonogram and sort them by sound.  There is a thing where you read through words and practice applying one or the other spelling.  

 

I liked that about Abecedarian.  

 

But then ---- did I use Abecedarian for syllable division?  Not so much.  I used something else for syllable division.  Which is fine and I like what I used.  It is not what I used for common prefixes and suffixes, either.  

 

I don't think it is a one-stop shop.  

 

But if you are really just looking for an option besides Barton to work on reading words -- I can say that I liked it :)  It is very plain and not busy ----- this is something that appealed to me, too.  My son was easily overwhelmed if things "looked hard" and Abecedarian didn't look hard to him.  It was easier to feel like we had gotten a lot done.  

 

Honestly -- I did not use Barton that far, but I think you are going to need something really known for syllable division, too.  You are using a program that is teaching syllable division, so that means -- he needs more than just being taught it (like kids where they have never been taught it at all), you need one where they are taught it really, really good.  

 

As far as I know, Barton is great for syllable division, but I did not use it.  I used Abecedarian some (it has a method it teaches that is nice, but not enough for my son).  http://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Phonics-Study-Intermediate-Grades/dp/0439163528/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1433766138&sr=8-2&keywords=wiley+blevins+phonics Then I used this book.  It is not a curriculum.  It is like -- a book that tells you how to make some lessons.  I thought it had a very good section on syllable division and prefixes and suffixes.  Was it easy to use?  Not really.  

 

Something about Barton, as far as I know, it introduces syllable division while kids are only having to worry about a small number of sounds.  I think this would make it easier to learn syllable division.  

 

Otherwise -- if you are trying to become fluent with all the sounds, it is going to be hard to recognize and then become fluent with syllables.  (B/c you do want to become fluent at recognizing syllable chunks -- it is part of reading).)  But what is the best way for that process to happen?  Honestly it is to not be confused and stuck at the level of decoding and trying to figure out which sound to use.  

 

Either b/c the number of sounds is limited for you, or b/c you have spent so much time you have really gotten fluent before moving on to syllable division.  

 

Now with an older child -- I do think it makes sense to work on syllable division first, and get that down, then add more sounds.  

 

For a younger child -- I think saying "well, we will just spend another year on one syllable words and getting solid and fluent with those, b/c look, it is taking forever for him to develop fluency" is fine (this was our situation).  

 

There is no rushing fluency.  It just takes time.

 

But for fluency to develop, there is a need for *accurate practice.*  Inaccurate practice does not develop fluency.  

 

som my opinion is -- go back to simpler things, keep it simple, look for accurate decoding.  Look for fluency with his accurate decoding.  Maybe not crazy good fluency, but at least a significant improvement.  My son would get frustrated if we spent too much time without moving on, so I had ways to review while still moving on.  But at a certain point -- if it is not fluent and there is a lot of inaccuracy, just go back, and take away the place the mistakes are happening, and only add those in slowly and with specific practice.  Look at what his errors are, keep a note of them, and see if you see a consistent error, and if you do, make a point to work on it.  If you never do this, he keeps on with inaccurate decoding and this means he is not going to be getting a "stable representation" in his mind, and that is what is needed for fluency to develop.  

 

It is great news that his phonemic awareness is good, though.  Yay!!!!!!!!!!  Yay!!!!!!!!!!!  Yay!!!!!!!!!!

 

But honestly I think you are going to have to take a big step back to doing one sound at a time.  

 

But also in good news -- he has all his phonograms memorized!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!  Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I think he has got a lot going for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I do think Barton would be a good program for him based on what you say.  If you are looking for:  very good syllable division, and very good introducing one sound at a time.  As far as I know since I didn't use it, lol.    

 

Since my son struggled also with phonemic awareness, I make a big deal about that.  

 

But don't think, just because your son doesn't struggle with that, then Barton is out.  

 

B/c after phonemic awareness there is decoding, and it sounds like your son is struggling with decoding.  So you can't skip decoding and go to fluency.  He has got to have accurate decoding and if he is seeing stuck at not knowing which sound to use for a phonogram and this is keeping him from quickly and accurately decoding a word -- then that is where you have to go.  

 

If he can quickly and accurately decode a word, but it just falls apart in his reading, then that is where you might go straight to fluency materials and working on just fluency.

 

It also sounds like he has been taught a rule for syllable division but has not had the practice in applying it, or maybe he didn't have the foundation he needed.  Ime with syllable division, if the child is still struggling with decoding at the letter-to-letter level (aka has not developed fluency at that little level) then it is just really hard. That was my experience, and it meant we waited and kept practicing with one-syllable words until he had time to develop fluency with them.  There is just too much going on at one time, if the smaller pieces are not more fluent, and things fall apart.  But I think it would be a benefit of Barton to go into syllable division without having to worry about so many sounds, I think it makes sense.  

 

So -- that is my opinion.  I think it is better to listen to the people you talk to in person than someone on the Internet!  But I have definitely been there with being confused by multiple sounds, and syllable division, so I can share my experience on that.  

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Pretty much agree with Lecka, OP. Your child sounds like he is going to need to go back and start with just one sound per vowel and build SLOWLY from there, along with starting over on syllable division. That is what finally started to unlock things for my kids. They needed to go back to the basics and start again, this time focusing on one sound at a time. Same with syllable division. One rule at a time, worked on to mastery, then the next layer carefully added, no short cuts, no rushing, until it is all internalized.

 

Using Barton helped me keep on track and keep from rushing or making too many leaps when they weren't ready.

 

There are many programs out there, though. Barton is only one of several with good track records. I do think it is the best designed for easier implementation by a layman to do at home with kids that have dyslexia.

[frogger]

Thanks for all the thoughts. I do like the sound of being able to focus on one thing at a time until it becomes automatic. I originally tried that concept with Phonics Pathways but when he was having difficulties went with a Orton-Gillingham method but SWR went to fast and probably confused him more. Step-by-step is good and lessons planned out for me is good because when your child is getting older there is a huge temptation, for me at least, to rush.

 

From what I understand from the posts it is really good and slow on the syllable division (to the point of making people feel like they will never get through Level 3) but honestly that is probably what he needs. We can deal with boredom for one subject at least. It sounds like it isn't likely it will confuse him which is something we couldn't deal with at this time.

[OneStepAtATime]

One thing that I found helpful with Barton was the suggestions on the site and the back of the TM for how to deal with a resistant teenager.  I very definitely had a resistant pre-teen.  We had tried many programs/tutors to no avail.  She really was tired of trying new things.  She had no faith that any of them would work.  And we started with Level 1 even though she was in 6th grade.  She hated how basic it seemed.  She felt insulted.

 

Turns out she really, really needed to go back that far to correct a lot of underlying issues that were tripping her up.  It was tough, though.  She was so insulted at how basic Level 1 seemed that she dragged her feet a lot.  She wasn't much more impressed with Level 2.  Level 3 also really irritated her...right up until the moment when she finally realized it was working.  At that point things changed.  Sometimes she even asked for lessons when we were taking a day off.  Until we got to that point, though, incorporating the suggestions Barton really helped us keep going.

 

Word of warning, all the hand gestures, etc. may seem weird and stupid and annoying (they were to DD) but they are absolutely a blessing, especially in later levels.  I really strongly encourage you, if you go with Barton, to be pretty strict about the hand gestures until the communication is automatic.  Sometimes these kids get really tripped up by too much verbal instruction.  And we instructors sometimes ramble on too long, or accidentally use confusing terminology and it mucks with their working memory and ability to process what you are actually trying to teach.  Learning those hand gestures cuts out a ton of verbiage makes it much easier for you and the student to just focus on the lesson.  (The videos really do help with this, especially in the beginning).

[PeterPan]

Frogger, what are the learning assessments you're getting?  If they don't include a WISC (IQ testing), I wouldn't bother but would go straight for psych testing.  If a neuropsych is too expensive in your area, just a regular clinical psych will do.  What you need to hear in the list are: 

 

-WISC (IQ)

-achievement testing (so they can read the tea leaves)

-something for language processing like the CELF

-something for ADHD like the TOVA or EF questionaires like the BRIEF

-motor planning testing (pegs, tower, whatever)

-CTOPP (test of phonological processing) or something similar

 

The reason is because you need them to have enough data to discriminate what is visual memory, what is dyslexia, etc.  You've probably got some working memory issues going on from what you've described, so you need the full WISC to dig in on that.  Without that you don't have working memory and processing speed. I'm not a psych, and obviously a psych will throw in more as they do their thing.  They might see reason to run an APD screening, for instance.  You'd be surprised how many clinical psychs DON'T do the extra testing but just do the WISC and achievement and read tea leaves off that, so you need to avoid that.  (That's why I'm saying to ask when you call places.)

 

My ds had the CELF5 as part of his psych testing, and indeed he had some really low numbers in the midst of his crazy high numbers.  That might be why he's been a hard sell on the read alouds.  My ds gets around it by listening to something over and over on the kindle to memorize it.  So he didn't get it the first time, but he got it with repetition over time.  

 

I would suggest you stop SWR completely.  It sounds like you've got some serious detoxing to do from the negative approach it created.  What you're describing, with a dc guessing what combination of phonograms to use, shouldn't even be happening.  With SWR you should be specifying the phonograms as part of your dictation, and his visual memory should kick in, allowing him to remember them at that point.  Since it's NOT coming together for him, that's your big clue to STOP.  It should not be happening the way you're describing, and I think it's because it's not a good program for him.  It does NOT do that to other kids who do NOT have the disability.  My dd used SWR for years and NEVER had a problem like that.

 

I think you're going to find Barton a huge breath of fresh air.  I think you're going to need to back up and give his brain time to detox from the bad experiences of SWR and to free himself of that guessing and anxiety.  I can't even imagine dealing with that anxiety.  Try proceeding with an "errorless learning" approach.  In other words, make your goal from now on to facilitate errorless, even if that means giving him a spelling dictionary or telling him every phonogram ahead of time.  No more testing or guessing or him being wrong.  Just TELL him the right answer even before it's an issue.  If he doesn't know, TELL him.  That's what Sanseri wanted you to do in SWR anyway.  It was never supposed to be like this.  The fact that it has gone so radioactive nuclear wrong is your big clue phone that it's not the right program for him.

 

Where to start?  I adore Barton and the peace you get with it.  As the others said, it builds them such a clear progression and builds automaticity so quietly, I'd be tempted to err toward backing up more.  It's NOT going to slow you down.  It's going to rebuild his confidence.  Get level 2 and go through it in a week, kwim?  Or, you know, maybe he blows through those tests and goes into 3 or 4.  Your resale value will be high, so your real cost is maybe $50 for the level.  But I'd make it about rebuilding his confidence.

 

And yes, I'm with OneStep.  The things my ds' is trying to do, even just as he's finishing B3 and starting B4, are ASTOUNDING.  Do NOT underestimate what could happen with this.  And you know, your SWR knowledge will affirm your work in Barton and make you more confident.  You'll find yourself using SWR terminology when you do the Barton sight words, and that's FINE!  But it's a super pared list, not this huge conglomeration all the time.  Our kids need more time, a LOT more time, doing just one thing to automaticity.  Doing so many rules all at once the way SWR does is just TOO much.  That's why you're having the problem.  So I'd encourage you to set it aside, get some proper evals scheduled to get that CTOPP done, and get going on Barton.  They'll still be able to diagnose the dyslexia, even when you start Barton, but it would be nice to get the CTOPP done sooner, rather than later.  It will get you access to dyslexia services (some free!), etc. etc.  If the assessments you've found so far don't include a CTOPP, you might try to move up getting some that will.

 

PS.  Keep us posted on his progress!  It will be fun to hear how he does.  I'll bet he's AMAZING with Barton.  You're going to love it. I used RightStart and SWR for years and years with my dd, and I super love Barton.   :)

 

 

[Lecka]

If you feel a temptation to rush -- think about all the good things your son is bringing to the table.  He already does know a lot.  And, it sounds like he is willing to work hard, too.  Those two things are going to go a long way for him.

 

But I think just recognizing the temptation is the biggest step!  And you are already there!   

 

Good luck :)  

 

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Maybe read some books about dyslexia such as Overcoming Dyslexia by Shaywitz. OG reading instruction literally rewires the brain to develop new neural pathways for learning. The process may be challenging and slow, but the efforts are worth it.