flyingiguana Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I've played on a lot of bad grands. And some good ones. My conclusion? You'd have to spend a LOT to get a good one. You'd be better off with a good upright than a so so grand. And even a so so grand is going to cost a lot. There's a number of them out there in the used piano world. Some are "affordable" but I'm not sure I'd want to go that route. A good upright is cheaper and takes up less room. And, to be honest, I kind of prefer playing on an upright. I get more feedback. The sound goes to me rather than to the audience. Otherwise, I don't notice a lot of difference. Yeah, the mechanics of the action are different, but I've noticed a lot more difference in action between pianos of the same type than between upright and grand. Trills? Really? I don't see much difference (I'm talking between decent pianos of the two types). It is true that the grand (a good one) will rebound faster so you can play faster repeated notes, but usually the fingers are the limiting factor in speed of trills. Frankly, I don't think your daughter's teacher knows what she's talking about, to be blunt. It would make me rethink taking lessons from her. She might be pretty clueless about other things too. (I got to a fairly high level in piano -- at one point, my teacher who could play really well, pointed out that my trills were a lot better than hers. I did not own a grand and did not practice on one. We used one for lessons, but that was about it) There will be plenty your daughter can work on over the next few years without the perfect instrument for repeated notes and trills. There's really no rush to get the top of the line piano. New uprights can be better than old grands. But, you'd probably want a good player to try them out for you. Maybe a teacher, but it sounds like your teacher doesn't want to go that route. There are a lot of old uprights in the world that would be better junked. It could be that your teacher is thinking of *those* when she compares grands to uprights. I would definitely look into getting your daughter practice time on a decent grand. But until your daughter notices a big marked difference in the action (not the sound) I really wouldn't worry about it. And, by then, she'll likely have either given up piano for other things or will be a music major in college and won't need the grand at home. A good digital can be cheaper and not need tuning. There isn't that much difference between a good digital and a good upright -- although you'll get better sound quality out of the digital if you use headphones. The sound out of the speakers can be so-so if you're up close -- so the player might not be happy with the sound, even though it's acceptable across the room. You probably do not want a cheap or free piano off craigslist. Grand or otherwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Bingo. I feel the same way. And I'm coveting a Charles Walter upright far more than a grand for the same price range, I'll tell you that! Yeah, see, that's what I HAVE. And a digital for early mornings or when I just can't handle the full, um, rich sound (sensitive ears here) or when I haven't gotten around to getting the upright tuned or when the living room is occupied by the rest of the family. This is why I don't covet much else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I really enjoy Yammies - so bright and crisp! There are some styles of piano I don't prefer them for, and like a warmer and more sonorous tone, but they'd absolutely be near the top of my list for a solid upright for my children. And seriously, if you live near a dealer of Walters try one out: http://www.walterpiano.com/pianos/studio-pianos/?walterpiano=3ae61b97cb979d89b786e70f00f4e4dd It's a much lesser known piano maker but they're aMAZing! So. I didn't really pay THAT much for mine. Was surprised on reading some piano forums about people finding good deals on used ones that were a lot more than what I paid. So I checked out the blue book of piano pricing: http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/listprices/walter.htm My. They have certainly gone up in price. Yeah, so, um, are Yamahas cheaper? Cause I've liked those. Or have all decent uprights gone way up in price? Just for comparison, scroll down to the grands -- 60K? Yeah. I can't see any piano teacher talking me into that. Have you considered having your daughter take up trombone? Last my professional trombone player priced good trombones, I think they were well under 10K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 It is entirely possible that your current piano is not worth refurbishment. This is very likely true. If a tech also agrees. Refurbishing a piano is not cheap. There are a lot of little parts that need replacement. There has to be something there to make it worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 If your daughter is that good and that dedicated, there is likely to be a church that would let her practice on theirs. That's what my DS11 and another boy do at pour church. The music director at the church loves it - he often comes in just to listen and praise. Yeah, there's all these wonderful pianos just sitting around unused during the week -- at churches and senior homes and hospitals and such. When my kids wanted to play on a grand, the local church secretary (who's in charge of everything) was just *thrilled* to have them come in and practice. It was close enough that my kids could bike over, so I didn't have to go over and sit there with them. They got to play the organ too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Yeah, there's all these wonderful pianos just sitting around unused during the week -- at churches and senior homes and hospitals and such. When my kids wanted to play on a grand, the local church secretary (who's in charge of everything) was just *thrilled* to have them come in and practice. It was close enough that my kids could bike over, so I didn't have to go over and sit there with them. They got to play the organ too. My sister in law and I both did this growing up. My church had a 7 foot Steinway that I practiced on. I loved that piano. My sister in law practiced on her church's organ growing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 so the parents actually cut a hole in the side of the house to get the grand in there. I would not have been able to resist asking, wide-eyed, if she wasn't cold in there in the winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Huh? This makes no sense to me. Parents often spend large amounts of money on their children when their children are involved in sports or music study. Maybe it's the "large chunk all at one time" aspect of it. We've spent a mint on Rebecca's gymnastics, and it's not going to get any cheaper, but it goes little by little. Just a thought, I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuzu822 Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I had thought about what I'm calling my Beth March solution--putting up a sign in the neighborhood about our situation with the hope that some nice elderly person might be willing to have my kiddo come over once/week to play their grand. There's a church down the street with a grand, so I could ask them too. Do you know someone at the piano store, or did they just welcome him? Thanks for the ideas! I'm sorry I'm just getting back to this thread. It looks like other people have had similar ideas about using instruments on "off days" for churches, nursing homes, etc., but to address your question about the store: they welcome customers to try out their pianos. (Some are obviously off limits, but they have many display models). Although the average clerk wouldn't recognize us, my husband is a member of a professional music organization with one of the proprietors and they know our piano teacher as well, so when the right people are on duty we have even more leeway and can use the nicest grands. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara in AZ Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I've played on a lot of bad grands. And some good ones. My conclusion? You'd have to spend a LOT to get a good one. You'd be better off with a good upright than a so so grand. And even a so so grand is going to cost a lot. There's a number of them out there in the used piano world. Some are "affordable" but I'm not sure I'd want to go that route. A good upright is cheaper and takes up less room. And, to be honest, I kind of prefer playing on an upright. I get more feedback. The sound goes to me rather than to the audience. Otherwise, I don't notice a lot of difference. Yeah, the mechanics of the action are different, but I've noticed a lot more difference in action between pianos of the same type than between upright and grand. Trills? Really? I don't see much difference (I'm talking between decent pianos of the two types). It is true that the grand (a good one) will rebound faster so you can play faster repeated notes, but usually the fingers are the limiting factor in speed of trills. Frankly, I don't think your daughter's teacher knows what she's talking about, to be blunt. It would make me rethink taking lessons from her. She might be pretty clueless about other things too. (I got to a fairly high level in piano -- at one point, my teacher who could play really well, pointed out that my trills were a lot better than hers. I did not own a grand and did not practice on one. We used one for lessons, but that was about it) There will be plenty your daughter can work on over the next few years without the perfect instrument for repeated notes and trills. There's really no rush to get the top of the line piano. New uprights can be better than old grands. But, you'd probably want a good player to try them out for you. Maybe a teacher, but it sounds like your teacher doesn't want to go that route. There are a lot of old uprights in the world that would be better junked. It could be that your teacher is thinking of *those* when she compares grands to uprights. I would definitely look into getting your daughter practice time on a decent grand. But until your daughter notices a big marked difference in the action (not the sound) I really wouldn't worry about it. And, by then, she'll likely have either given up piano for other things or will be a music major in college and won't need the grand at home. A good digital can be cheaper and not need tuning. There isn't that much difference between a good digital and a good upright -- although you'll get better sound quality out of the digital if you use headphones. The sound out of the speakers can be so-so if you're up close -- so the player might not be happy with the sound, even though it's acceptable across the room. You probably do not want a cheap or free piano off craigslist. Grand or otherwise. This is really sound advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingmom Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I haven't read ALL the responses - but looks like you have gotten overall good advice. My thoughts. 1) I don't see this as spoiling the child.... 2) 1200sq feet house sounds pretty small to fit one in.... 3) I have a hard time seeing it being 'needed' - but I'm not an expert by any means.... Just wanted to say that my sister did the Organ, and at one point my parents had to upgrade our organ (which was a pretty good one) a LOT as she needed a full pedal-board and more manuals.... it did take a fair bit of room in our living room. It didn't spoil her one bit. (She also needed to practice weekly on a church with a pipe-organ.) She was truly at a level where it was necessary.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Why are you going to this teacher? Do you want/expect your child to compete and win, as the other students of this teacher do? Is your daughter doing this as a hobby or something more? Until you are clear on your goals for using this particular teacher you can't make this decision. If you want your child to succeed as her other students do, then you'll have to follow the teacher's guidelines. If you want what the other students have, then you'll have to do with the other students do. If this is just a fun hobby for your child, then stick with an upright and don't worry about the competitions. Maybe even find a teacher whose goals are the same as yours. Of course, you need to have a clear idea of what your goals are. I used to play for 60-90 minutes a day at that age and it was just a joyous hobby for me and nothing more. A grand piano would have been a ludicrous purchase for me. By 12, I was done with lessons, though I still played for a good hour a day for the pleasure of it. Playing for that length of time a day at that age isn't impressive, but I don't mean that statement in a mean way! I mean that 60-90 minutes is a good starting point to answering the above: Is she playing that much because it's just fun or is your child driven to succeed or pursue music as more than a hobby? I suppose you'd have to try to assess your child's drive and ambitions. Is this an all-consuming passion? Or simply a fun thing to do? If it's an all-consuming passion and you expect her to compete and win, then do what the teacher says. If this is a simple joy in your daughter's life, then don't get the grand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I would have loved to have a grand piano growing up and would love one now. I was never a serious piano student, although I took lessons for many years as a child (I loved it but was not talented). So these are my thoughts: * Your child obviously loves piano now. She may not stick with it. Buy the piano for your family if you want to have one whether she continues with her lessons or ends up quitting in a few years. * Your house sounds very small for that large of a piano. I think you said you measured out where it would stand in your room and saw that it would fit? Remember that the piano will take up a lot of visual space vertically as well; it may look much bigger in your room than it now seems with just the dimensions marked out on your floor. * Your teacher sounds like she is very serious about grand pianos. That may be right and good as a piano instructor. But she does not have the right to tell you how to spend your money. And I'm not sure how she can be so sure that you could afford it. Even if you told her your bank balance, it wouldn't be a full picture of your finances. If she has a requirement to have a grand in order to learn from her, then you need to either get one or find a new teacher, because she can require whatever she wants of her students. However, you are the steward of your money, and she shouldn't dictate to you how to spend it. * I don't have a piano student, but I have a child who is extremely talented in an activity that requires our family to make a large financial commitment each year. And another child who also participates in an expensive sport. So it can cost money to help our children achieve at a high level. I get that. I just don't get the teacher's pushiness about this. It's your family's decision; she can only make suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I don't think a piano is going to spoil any kid, but I agree that the teacher is bonkers. My kids are *serious* musicians. They've all played various instruments quite seriously since they were toddlers (Suzuki violin at first). My youngest (12) is a pianist, adores it, is quite advanced, plays for probably an average of 90 min/day (much more some days, and very self-motivated) and has for years, considers (plausibly) a career in music . . . and she is playing on a hand-me-down $500 upright in need of tuning at the moment. (We do also have a $1000 digital piano that we bought for her to practice on when we spend a month at the beach, so I'm not averse to spending money on her instruments, but I'm not convinced by your teacher's arguments.) My kid *loves* playing her teacher's Steinway during lessons, but I am in no hurry to get her a (baby) grand, even though I recognize that it might be inevitable. Money doesn't actually grow on trees, lol. Just this weekend, my son's guitar professor (and another visiting professor) informed me that it was time to shop for the "life time" guitar. ($20+k) While scraping myself off the floor, I recognize that it makes sense for *him* because he is 15, it takes 12-18 months to choose and buy the guitar, and 16 months from now, he'll be preparing auditions for conservatories, potentially ones like Juilliard or Curtis . . . and if he wants to compete next summer (critical season audition-wise), then he has to have that level of guitar to actually win the big contests (one of the professors today has been a judge at the biggest of those contests, so this is coming from very reliable sources.) That kid has been studying guitar for 10years, typically 2-3 hours a day, often more, won an international contest by age 11, and has studied with elite international artists . . . And, only NOW, age 15, that we're actually pondering a career in music (or a lifetime of very, very serious hobby-study), are we considering the next step. Personally, that's about my criteria for my youngest with the baby grand/Steinway/etc level of piano . . . When it becomes plausible that this is a life-time passion (whether professionally or personally), then I can see buying an instrument in place of a car . . . but not yet. So, anyway, I think you should save your money. If anything, figure out what the monthly payment would be on one of those pianos, and start saving it religiously in an interest bearing account. When it comes time to buy, you can pay cash (or at least a lot of cash down), and if you never buy, you'll have a very nice rainy day fund! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 About guitars -- my guitar playing husband who would happily spend 20K on a guitar if I would let him says that he's tried some very pricey guitars. And he's much happier with some of the lower priced ones he's actually got (I hesitate to admit how many he has...) So I'd be curious to know what the 20K+ guitars are that your son's professors are recommending. I'm assuming they're classical guitars? I know where they're coming from, though. Most auditioning committees seem unable to separate the instrument from the player. It has always seemed a bit ridiculous to me that one has to have a ton of money to do well in a competition. I also have wondered about the wisdom of getting the "lifetime" instrument just when the student is about to embark on getting really really good. Their needs may change after four years at Julliard or Curtis. Julliard ought to institute a loaner program for the year before the audition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 For comparison, we would never consider buying a car that cost 20K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I need your wisdom! My DD is 10, and her piano teacher says that it's time for her to have a grand piano. My DD can't practice many of the things the teacher is asking her to do, and the teacher says it's because she's not on a grand. She says my DD can try to compensate but that it isn't fair to a student if it's not necessary to put them through that. She even went so far as to tell me that it wasn't really worth paying the extra money for lessons with her (this teacher is double the price of her old teacher) if we aren't going to commit to a grand sometime soon. We could cut back on things and find a way to afford it, but it hasn't felt right to me and DH. It feels so extravagant for such a young child to have such an expensive piece of equipment. I guess I am very worried about the message it would send her to spend that kind of money on her. I guess I could see spending that kind of money when she's 13 or 14, but it feels like the wrong thing to do with a young kid. How the heck would I keep her grounded if I spend that kind of money on her? To be fair, she has shown tremendous dedication and has practiced piano for 60-90 minutes almost every day for about 2 1/2 years. She's working on a Chopin waltz that is level 7 or 8 (the one in B minor--I think it's his easiest). I'm not worried about her dedication or seriousness about piano. She loves it and this is her life. Are DH and I worried about nothing? Or is there something to our worry? We don't live an extravagant lifestyle (1 tiny car, small house, clothes from thrift stores), so this is new territory for us. Any wisdom? What exactly is she planning on teaching your child that can't be done on an upright? The only person I know of who does anything that obviously can't be done on an upright is George Winston, who at times reaches into the piano to fiddle with the strings while he plays. I agree with other posters -- you can more affordably rent or borrow time on a piano elsewhere than buy a grand and squeeze it into a small house. Local churches, a local campus that teaches piano, local high schools -- ask around. Shoot, if your daughter is good (which is sounds like she is) a local piano STORE might be willing to let her come in to practice on theirs. Hearing beautiful playing helps sell pianos, especially when folks see that it's a kid playing it. Any chance you'd consider switching piano teachers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Some of the Kawai digital pianos have what they call a grand piano action: http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/Features/new_actions2010.html I don't know if it truly is the same feel. I didn't spend that much time playing one when we were picking out our digital. The action did seem a lot harder, but I wasn't aware of, say, trills being different. (But I don't know a huge difference in trills between upright and grand anyway) There are some other digitals that act as if it's a grand piano feel, but I haven't seen explanations of the mechanics of that so I suspect those are more marketing than a different action. I actually find the dynamic range on a grand frustrating. As I mentioned before, the sound is going AWAY from me on a grand so I'm constantly bothered by the fact that my louds don't get as loud as I think they should. So while the teacher may find a student playing on a grand can get a better dynamic range, it doesn't necessarily follow that a student needs to practice all the time on a grand to understand how to get that. Unless it's just to train the student that grands don't give the same auditory feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Our local hardware store has a nice grand piano. I'm sure they'd be happy to have good players using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 About guitars -- my guitar playing husband who would happily spend 20K on a guitar if I would let him says that he's tried some very pricey guitars. And he's much happier with some of the lower priced ones he's actually got (I hesitate to admit how many he has...) So I'd be curious to know what the 20K+ guitars are that your son's professors are recommending. I'm assuming they're classical guitars? I know where they're coming from, though. Most auditioning committees seem unable to separate the instrument from the player. It has always seemed a bit ridiculous to me that one has to have a ton of money to do well in a competition. I also have wondered about the wisdom of getting the "lifetime" instrument just when the student is about to embark on getting really really good. Their needs may change after four years at Julliard or Curtis. Julliard ought to institute a loaner program for the year before the audition. Responded in a PM, as details are too traceable to share publicly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Yeah, see, that's what I HAVE. And a digital for early mornings or when I just can't handle the full, um, rich sound (sensitive ears here) or when I haven't gotten around to getting the upright tuned or when the living room is occupied by the rest of the family. This is why I don't covet much else. We use a nicer digital and I've been so happy with it, since I practice when the children are asleep. There is something to be said for it always being perfectly tuned :) And lucky your with your Walter! They sound so amazingly warm. I'm always amazed at how inexpensive they are for the quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 So. I didn't really pay THAT much for mine. Was surprised on reading some piano forums about people finding good deals on used ones that were a lot more than what I paid. So I checked out the blue book of piano pricing: http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/listprices/walter.htm My. They have certainly gone up in price. Yeah, so, um, are Yamahas cheaper? Cause I've liked those. Or have all decent uprights gone way up in price? Just for comparison, scroll down to the grands -- 60K? Yeah. I can't see any piano teacher talking me into that. Have you considered having your daughter take up trombone? Last my professional trombone player priced good trombones, I think they were well under 10K. They really have jumped in price. But I, too, will take an excellent upright over a comparably priced grand. A nice grand is fabulous, but I truly don't believe it necessary for skilled performing and accompanying. I'm just glad someone else has heard of Charles Walter :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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