Anyone have data on homeschooler averages on PSAT/SAT/ACT?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm trying to find any kind of report that gives a breakdown of PSAT/SAT or ACT scores for homeschoolers.  You would think that this would be out there at least for the PSAT/SAT since homeschoolers have a specific code to use, but I'm not finding anything.

 

The closest I'm coming is the "other/unknown" field for type of school in the state reports.

[teachermom2834]

I don't know but my kids have codes that correspond to their umbrella schools where they are technically independent study students, not homeschoolers.  So, it might be hard to get an accurate picture because of those sorts of things.

 

I actually, just today, was wondering if my son and other homeschoolers boosted the average ACT the private school he is under has been boasting of.

[Little Women]

Homeschoolers are usually somewhat above the average on all standardized tests.   I wonder if NHERI (Hm, is that the right acronym?) would have info like this.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Homeschoolers are usually somewhat above the average on all standardized tests. I wonder if NHERI (Hm, is that the right acronym?) would have info like this.

I glanced at NHERI but didn't see anything. Also I was hoping for a report from the testing bodies rather than a specifically pro homeschool center.

[JDoe]

Hmm, so the Baylor entry requirements are higher for homeschooled kids?  :confused1:

[HootyTooty]

I really don't think the information is out there. I've been looking for a friend and just can't find a neutral/non-homeschooling resource site.

[EKS]

The problem with all of the "studies" that I've seen about homeschoolers' achievement is that they are not looking at a random sample of the *entire* population of homeschoolers.  The big study commissioned by the HSLDA was done using the scores of kids who took standardized tests through places like BJU.  The parents had to give permission for their kids' data to be used.  There are several different selection biases there.  First, parents who decide to have their kids tested are more likely to offer rigorous academic experiences that produce higher achievement scores.  Second, many, if not most, of the students being tested are being tested at home where they are more comfortable, and, frankly, where there may be more help in the way of hints and extra time.  Third, parents whose kids are unlikely to do well on standardized tests for whatever reason may tend to avoid them and/or would be less likely to have their kids' scores included in the study.

 

Even looking at SAT/ACT results, if such a thing were available, doesn't tell you much about the achievement of the homeschool population as a whole because kids taking those tests tend to be college bound--so you're basically losing the bottom half of the curve.

 

I don't think it's possible to do a properly controlled study of this sort because of the logistics of getting the full spectrum of homeschoolers to participate. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The problem with all of the "studies" that I've seen about homeschoolers' achievement is that they are not looking at a random sample of the *entire* population of homeschoolers. The big study commissioned by the HSLDA was done using the scores of kids who took standardized tests through places like BJU. The parents had to give permission for their kids' data to be used. There are several different selection biases there. First, parents who decide to have their kids tested are more likely to offer rigorous academic experiences that produce higher achievement scores. Second, many, if not most, of the students being tested are being tested at home where they are more comfortable, and, frankly, where there may be more help in the way of hints and extra time. Third, parents whose kids are unlikely to do well on standardized tests for whatever reason may tend to avoid them and/or would be less likely to have their kids' scores included in the study.

 

Even looking at SAT/ACT results, if such a thing were available, doesn't tell you much about the achievement of the homeschool population as a whole because kids taking those tests tend to be college bound--so you're basically losing the bottom half of the curve.

 

I don't think it's possible to do a properly controlled study of this sort because of the logistics of getting the full spectrum of homeschoolers to participate.

Education research of all types is hard to do. You can't teach the same kid to read twice. It's why people love the studies that look at charter schools by assessing outcomes of families that all applied to charters and were assigned via lottery. Sometimes I amuse myself by imagining famines buying randomly assigned to homeschooling...

 

One reason I was looking for SAT info is because it would be coded right on the test. Of course there would be some uncertainty with kids going in and out of homeschooling, but I think there is less movement during high school (as opposed to the period as students are about to enter high school).

 

And it would be a number that might compare college bound cohorts.

[EKS]

I suspect that if it were possible to examine a truly representative sample of homeschoolers, you would find a bimodal distribution of achievement scores.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This isn't nationwide, but Baylor did a study of their homeschool students between 2007-2012

http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/184173.pdf

 

I guess they do this every so often.  Here is the one from 2005-2009

http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/119942.pdf

 

Thanks, that was interesting.  It does make me wonder if homeschoolers had higher scores or if Baylor picked homeschoolers with higher scores as students to accept.

 

I found a similar study for Ave Maria, but that school is so much smaller that a couple students would throw the results one way or the other.  http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1737&context=ce

[HootyTooty]

I just realized we are looking for information for the same person. lol.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I suspect that if it were possible to examine a truly representative sample of homeschoolers, you would find a bimodal distribution of achievement scores.

 

Meaning that there would be a high achieving hump and a cluster at lower ranges too?  

 

It would be interesting to see.  Given that many families leave public schools because they feel their students' needs aren't being taken care of, on either ends of the scale I wouldn't be surprised to see such a distribution.  And there may be a sense that if the student is in the middle that public school is just as good and has lower opportunity costs (especially in high school, where there is a perception of higher stakes and when parents looking at college costs and weighing the economic cost of years of having one parent out of the work force).

 

There are some states that require testing at certain grades.  I wonder if there is any collection of information or if it ends up just sitting at the local school level unless a student doesn't hit the progress goals.  (I remember asking something like this of the Virginia DOE back around 1998 and being told that they didn't collect the information on a state level.)

[ElizabethB]

Different test, but Arkansas requires all homeschoolers to test using the ITBS for math and LA from 3rd grade on and the results are just FYI, so people do not avoid the testing requirement. 16 years worth of testing data, almost 30 years worth of enrollment numbers.

 

http://www.arkansased.org/divisions/learning-services/home-schools/home-school-reports

 

(Well, extreme government is out to track us and get us people might avoid registering and testing, but I met a lot of homeschoolers when we lived there and even the smaller government types I knew took the test.)

[8filltheheart]

Fwiw, I don't know about the SAt/ACT, but I have zero doubts that there are states which definitely know the avg stats of their homeschoolers. States which require or allow submission of yrly test scores as evidence of academic progress do have the numbers in their possession for those homeschooling legally under that particular statute.

 

I have always been curious as to why that information is not available.

[HootyTooty]

Do homeschoolers nationwide use the same code when taking the SAT or ACT?

[JennyD]

 

Joseph Murphy's book, Homeschooling in America, has an extremely comprehensive bibliography of the very limited research that has been done about homeschooling and homeschoolers.   If there is data about SAT/ACT scores, I would bet it's cited in there.  (IMNSHO, the book itself has essentially no added value and I don't quite understand how it got published in the first place, but the bibliography is very useful.)

 

 

 

[ElizabethB]

Slightly off topic, but one of the interesting things that we learned at out 20th year reunion for the AF Academy is that the PFT scores went from a nice bell curve to a more bi modal curve, I don't remember the exact change point or if they mentioned a timeframe for the change. The high end is higher, but the low end is lower, and there is less of a middle in the curve. It followed a stable bell curve for the entire history until the change.

 

It makes sense in retrospect, but was interesting. Everyone used to walk to school and do a bit of neighborhood playing around and sports were less competitive. Now, your high achievers do a lot more and are in better shape, but those on the low end are not walking to school and are not doing much physical activity at all.

[EKS]

Meaning that there would be a high achieving hump and a cluster at lower ranges too?  

 

Yes.  Though, now that I think about it, there would probably also be a peak in the middle (so maybe a flatter curve or a curve with shoulders on the right and left or something).

[creekland]

 

Even looking at SAT/ACT results, if such a thing were available, doesn't tell you much about the achievement of the homeschool population as a whole because kids taking those tests tend to be college bound--so you're basically losing the bottom half of the curve.

 

 

This is the exact same deal at our ps too.  Only those students thinking of 4 year schools take the SAT and/or ACT.  Those who are heading to cc, military, vocational schools, the work force, etc, do not take them.  I'm not sure we even have a 50% rate of those taking these tests.

[creekland]

I just looked up our stats for the SAT (and very few take the ACT).  For the last 4 years our test taking numbers have been less than 50% of students (each year).  It also said that 42% of our graduates required remediation in math and/or reading before being prepared to take college level courses.  I didn't know they kept such info, but it supposedly came from the PA Dept of Education so should be as reliable as it gets.

[EKS]

 

 

Joseph Murphy's book, Homeschooling in America, has an extremely comprehensive bibliography of the very limited research that has been done about homeschooling and homeschoolers.   If there is data about SAT/ACT scores, I would bet it's cited in there.  (IMNSHO, the book itself has essentially no added value and I don't quite understand how it got published in the first place, but the bibliography is very useful.)

 

 

 

 

Thank you for mentioning this book!  I haven't been paying much attention to the homeschooling literature in the past few years, so I hadn't come across it before.  I just ordered it and am reading a sample on my tablet right now.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Do homeschoolers nationwide use the same code when taking the SAT or ACT?

 

There is one code for the SAT.  For the PSAT there is a code for each state.  AP tests also have state codes.  We haven't done an ACT yet so I'm not sure what they do.

 

Having said that, I think that charter schools for home study (which seemed very popular in California and which we've also encountered in Hawaii) probably have their own codes.  But since students input their own code when registering for the SAT, it's hard to say if these charter students would put down the charter school code or homeschool.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Honestly, I don't think so...  I think the ones that apply are higher and/or the ones that attend.  You can get higher scholarships, the higher your SAT score.  Plus, many many homschoolers couldn't afford to attend so it self-selects some, I think.    I guess what I liked about the study and what reassured me is that they did well while they were there at school... 

 

I don't think we can say either way if Baylor was being harder on homeschoolers, if homeschoolers had higher scores across the board or if mainly homeschoolers with higher scores applied.  Given that the percentage of homeschoolers as part of the incoming class is around 1%, it doesn't sound like they were unduly excluding homeschoolers.  (1% is about what I'd expect as the percentage of high schoolers who are home schooled.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thank you for mentioning this book!  I haven't been paying much attention to the homeschooling literature in the past few years, so I hadn't come across it before.  I just ordered it and am reading a sample on my tablet right now.

 

I remember hearing an interview with Milton Gaither a few years ago and thinking that he had done a good job of trying to write about homeschooling without being emotional from either end of the discussion.  His blog seems to collect a lot of articles and research.

 

https://gaither.wordpress.com/

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This one is interesting.  I'd love to see the scores they analyzed as well as current scores.

 

https://gaither.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/ray-and-eagleson-on-government-regulations-and-sat-scores/

[JennyD]

 

That is interesting. i read part of Gaither's book and thought it was pretty good. (I can't remember why I put it down, come to think of it.)  Far better than the Murphy book I mentioned upthread.   I did not know that Gaither had a blog, will have to check it out.  

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think one problem with assessing homeschoolers on standardized tests is the way the school code is entered.

 

Between the various College Board exams I know proctors have often instructed or tried to persuade my kids put the code for the school they are testing at on their exam rather than the homeschool code.  Some kids when faced with an instruction by the testing proctor are likely to write what they are instructed rather than the code their parents gave them.

 

I suspect this ultimately lumps many homeschoolers into the local school/test site but as they are such a small proportion statistically no one notices or possibly cares.

 

No scientific evidence but if our experience is widespread then it does happen.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think one problem with assessing homeschoolers on standardized tests is the way the school code is entered.

 

Between the various College Board exams I know proctors have often instructed or tried to persuade my kids put the code for the school they are testing at on their exam rather than the homeschool code. Some kids when faced with an instruction by the testing proctor are likely to write what they are instructed rather than the code their parents gave them.

 

I suspect this ultimately lumps many homeschoolers into the local school/test site but as they are such a small proportion statistically no one notices or possibly cares.

 

No scientific evidence but if our experience is widespread then it does happen.

This ought not occur with the SAT because that registration is done online and students from several schools are at the same test site. There isn't a chance for proctors to make a change like there is on the PSAT and AP.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

This ought not occur with the SAT because that registration is done online and students from several schools are at the same test site. There isn't a chance for proctors to make a change like there is on the PSAT and AP.

 

True-I forgot that was part of the online system.

[JDoe]

Honestly, I don't think so...  I think the ones that apply are higher and/or the ones that attend.  You can get higher scholarships, the higher your SAT score.  Plus, many many homschoolers couldn't afford to attend so it self-selects some, I think.    I guess what I liked about the study and what reassured me is that they did well while they were there at school... 

 

I was only trying to point out a potential problem wit extrapolating Baylor study to universe of homeschoolers.