RS, Miquon, MM, MEP...help for K math!

[AHASRADA]

I have searched and read a ton of threads on this subject, but I felt it was time to bite the bullet and drag you all through my scrambled brain in an effort to plan my youngest's K math for next year.

 

We have used Critical Thinking Press Mathematical Reasoning workbooks for Pre-K, and I would like to continue with that. It is a very spiral workbook that I would like to shore up with something more thorough and complete. (We also used McRuffy this year, which was great, but she's ready to move beyond it).

 

She enjoys manipulatives, building and creating with them, lining them up, making "equals" (equal groups), etc. I was thinking about getting Miquon for her to start messing around with this spring and summer, and if she enjoys it, continue next school year.

 

At the same time, I still don't feel like Miquon is "complete", and am seriously leaning toward using RS as our spine. I used RS B with my elder dd 10 years ago (long since sold, of course), and it gave her an excellent foundation in place value and addition with carrying. I ended up moving her to Saxon because she needed and thrived on the spiral and constant repetition. I don't think this dd is going to need that, and will thrive on the conceptual approach. She also doesn't write yet, so RS would be a good fit at the moment, although she does love workbooks to circle and x objects, etc. (Mathematical Reasoning satisfies this).

 

I have a couple of concerns with RS. First of all, I hate the idea of rebuying the exact curriculum I already sold. I would feel better about buying the new updated version, but it is a huge investment since all the manips need to be purchased upfront. I have tried enough math curric. over the years that I am hesitant to put such a huge investment into a program I have no guarantee will click with this dd. I have a few of the manips. left, and have found other components used, so I could cobble together a set of the old version (still close to $100, but better than $250+ for V2). ) I could also buy only the games and Abacus activity books. My only fear with this option is that I tend not to use resources that don't include scheduled lessons. I would need to coordinate RS activities with the same concepts in another program and plan that into our schedule, since I doubt I would just spontaneously pull out a game or flip through the activity book for inspiration.

 

I took a look at MEP, and liked the looks of a lot of the activities. I don't see myself using it as a primary curriculum, though. It seems like one of those where I would fear something was missing, and I also don't like having to adapt classroom lessons to individual instruction. I'm still toying with the idea of working some of it in somehow, though.

 

At the same time, I really like the looks of MM. I feel like, no matter how much hands-on conceptual stuff (Miquon & RS) and spiral review (MR) we do, we still need a mastery approach, worksheet-based curriculum to pull it all together, aka MM.

 

At the moment, I'm thinking of doing Miquon with MR and maybe some of MEP from now until Sept. (finishing K4). In Sept., I could continue with MR and Miquon, add in either RS B and go slowly at her pace (rather than using level A) or the RS activities, and MM 1A (again going slowly at her pace).

 

Thoughts? (Please don't suggest SM; I used it with ds and I just wasn't crazy about the format. I would prefer MM and RS).

 

 

If I do follow this sequence, any suggestions on how to implement it?

 

Also, any suggestions for a choice of RS materials (level A or B, version 1 or 2, games & activities)?

 

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse after reading all the other threads, but I'm still conflicted. Thanks for your help :)

[desertflower]

I'm following.  I have the same exact question!  Except I am considering SM.  :) 

 

 

[Slache]

I think I posted this 2 or 3 months ago. We went with Mathematics Made Meaningful because it was perfect for him and it's a great precursor to Miquon. I know both the old RS & MM are pretty inexpensive through HSBC, and many people strongly encouraged me to use the new RS if we went that rout. I think we'll do AL Abacus activities and card games no mater which curriculum we stick with. Good luck.

[Sherry in OH]

MEP Reception does not take a full year.  I vaguely remember reading that it was designed to be done 2-3 times a week, during the second half of the pre-k or k year (age 5).   The first half of the year the focus was to be on coloring, drawing, painting, patterning, games, and other fine and gross motor activities.  

 

We used Reception for the later part of pre-k and moved on to year 1 for kindergarten. The program is easily adapted for home use.  Reception is fun.  You could start it now and finish the level this school year.  Or do it for fun during the summer.  Lessons are short and sweet.

 

One of my children used the AL abacus as his manipulative of choice for his MEP lessons.  I had the RS worksheets book, but it frustrated him.  His mental math ability far outstripped his writing ability.

[kateingr]

Your daughter sounds like she's off to a great start already! My personal preference is RightStart, but RS and MM are both great programs, so you really can't go wrong here. 

 

I find the biggest difference between RS and MM to be the way they present the concepts. RS tends to be very inductive, asking kids to reason through a process and figure it out for themselves. Dr. Cotter has an amazing ability to lead kids right to the edge of understanding but allow them to take the leap themselves. I love the way this has built my kids' math confidence. Math Mammoth does a lot to develop conceptual understanding, but it tends more to tell kids what to do and why it works. I find this a plus for RS, but it might drive some kids crazy.

 

Also, I find the mental math much stronger in RS. MM does some good work here, but the abacus develops number sense in such a deep way, and the games do so much to reinforce this. Using the abacus with MM would certainly help strengthen MM in this regard, and I believe Maria Miller even recommends the RS abacus to go along with MM, so that would be one way to address this. 

 

Regarding the cost on RightStart, I agree that the manipulative package cost is crazy, especially considering that the AL abacus is the most useful manipulative there is for young children learning math. (I actually just wrote a post about it, I love it so much.)  It sounds like you've already thought through how you can whittle it down, but for what it's worth, I believe you can do really well with just the abacus, place value cards, base 10 picture cards, and basic card deck. Most of the other things are used for only one or two lessons in the early grades, so they've never seemed very worth it to me, especially that huge math balance that I've used twice!

 

Regarding level and edition, I've only used first edition, so I don't know about the difference between the two, but I wonder if you could find a used first edition for cheaper. Many people seem to like to skip A, but I think it's well worth it for the slow and steady development of the topics for little ones. 

 

 

 

 

[Farrar]

Sometimes it's nice to have a lot of approaches and some kids resonate with using different things. For other kids, I think you're talking about way too much math. I don't know MR that well, but I am pretty familiar with all the others. They are all pretty complete. Don't let your worries that MEP or Miquon aren't good enough be the deciders. Lots of kids have gone from Miquon as a mostly standalone or MEP as a mostly standalone to other solid programs later on without issue. Your dd is only 4, right? What she wants and needs from a program may change in the next couple of years. I wouldn't overthink this so much. Since Miquon is inexpensive and MEP is free and MM is also inexpensive, I'd start with one of those and add things as you feel like you need to. You know RS and if those aren't working so great, then think about adding that. But I wouldn't wring your hands over it now. I would wait and see.

[Ellie]

For a 5yo, Miquon is certainly "complete." :-)

 

Before Miquon, though, I like to do Mathematics Made Meaningful, where children become really familiar with the rods. And it's fun: task cards that begin with "Pile the rods on a table, and sort them into colors. Mess up the piles and sort them by size. Hey--same piles!" :-) By the time the dc get to Miquon, they know the rods in their heart of hearts. :-)

[blondeviolin]

I started a grade 1 program with both of my older kids in K and that worked fine. But my current Ker is different. She's experimenting with Miquon a bit, but she also needs some time to mature. It's okay to focus on math concepts without a curriculum at 5 too.

[AHASRADA]

Thanks for the food for thought, everyone. Ellie, I am planning to get the MMM rod set and work with the cards this spring before I buy the full Miquon materials, to make sure she takes to them first.

 

Farrar, I know you are probably the voice of reason, telling me to stick with c-rods and MEP (cheap & free) at this level, and that is one of the two options I am leaning toward.

 

At the same time, I know RS also gives a great conceptual foundation and I like the fact that it can be used up to grade 5/6. I feel like this dd is a similar learner to ds, and I jumped around, switching curricula several times with him, which I feel did him a disservice. I want to stick with something at least grades 1-6, if possible.

 

I could do Miquon and MEP for K, then move to RS or MM for 1st. I'd like her to practice beginning concepts on the abacus, though, so I guess I could just integrate that into K. If I bought a used RS B and MM1A for 1st, I could see which works best, then continue grades 2-6 with that.

 

Still, a part of me really wants her to learn basic K math with both c-rods and the abacus, and while I could integrate the abacus myself, maybe it makes more sense to do Miquon and RS A together for K.

 

I know I have plenty of time and things change, I just would like to have a general long-term plan in order to avoid too much curriculum switching in the long run (learning from experience and all that).

 

Getting closer...thanks!

 

[AimeeM]

I really do feel like Miquon is pretty darn complete, although I'll admit that I also have the What Your ---- Needs to know, to find things (and interesting ways to teach such things) that Miquon doesn't cover... but those are "little" things, really; money, skip counting, etc. Miquon teaches everything major, and does so in such a way that I feel no need to supplement those *major" concepts. With that said, I think it's the unusual sequence that can throw people off Miquon.

 

I wouldn't, even for my very math-oriented boy, use 3 programs. No way, no how. I think that sounds like an awful lot of math, and using such different programs could harm more than help.

 

What about choosing one as your base, and then another to supplement? For example, while we use Miquon as our core, and it's the only one we do regularly, I also have What Your Kindergartner/First Grader/Second Grader Should Know, AND I have CLE 1 - just for the reproducibles and to look through the TM for little things that we may be missing. I never use them all, though, and I only pull out our supplements as necessary. 

 

 

[Kiara.I]

If you LIKE RS and you're considering switching to it anyway, why not just start with it?

[Kendall]

I use Miquon Orange in K (1st 3 kids I used only Miquon) and then go to MEP 1 and dabble in Miquon Red along the way.  I don't use MEP reception.  You could use the videos  at  http://www.educationunboxed.com/  prior to and along with Miquon.   

[AHASRADA]

Update: I found both RS A&B levels plus the Activities for AL Abacus with worksheets for a crazy great deal on ebay, plus a great deal on the card games right here in classifieds, so that cinched it for me. I have ordered an abacus and level A worksheets. If it works for us, we're all set for a couple of years. If not, I'm not out much.

 

I also ordered c-rods, Miquon orange and the teacher books. I plan to use Rosie's videos with them until she's ready to give orange a try.

 

MEP is always there for the printing if I feel we need it.

 

Thanks so much for everyone's advice!

 

[PagesandFields]

I found this thread while searching for threads because I have very similar confused thoughts!  :)  For what it's worth... if it helps and you haven't decided yet.  I've been using RS A (second edition)... I LOVE LOVE it...  but I'm thinking of ditching it for Math Mammoth...  Here's my reasons.  I personally think RS is better for the kid... but we sort of spiral a lot of our other topics and learning and I'm pulling our curriculum together myself.  My son resists consistent practice, but really needs it regarding math.  I LOVED RS at the beginning of the year because his handwriting was nonexistent... but as he's shown readiness in that area it's not as much of an issue...  But here's the thing... My life is super duper packed and we tend to not get around to the very best parts of RS...  The games, the discovery, I haven't been able to get my prep in place enough to really dive in like we should... and he's not too excited about it.  I feel like a not as good a curriculum done well can work better than a better curriculum done badly... does that make sense?  It's not like RS is high prep... but it's teacher intensive and by the time I wrap my head around the main part of the lesson my son's over it and doesn't want to do the games or more in depth stuff...  I'm thinking of trying Math Mammoth over the summer to see if it clicks...  then maybe try RS when my toddler is a bit easier and my head is a bit less jumbled...  

 

I have no idea if that's helpful in the least... but in case it might be I wanted to share.  :)

[ChocolateMomster]

I have used Singapore, Saxon, MEP, MM, R&S and a bunch of others I don't even want to remember ;) and Miquon is by far my favorite for the k-3 age. It's definitely complete! Skip-counting is something you can easily teach with some songs, no big deal. My eldest has used Singapore and MEP for those years instead of Miquon. My second has finished the first two books of Miquon, and I can tell the difference! My second is far better in problem solving....and my first boy is the Math-guy, the second the History-guy. *Miquon rant over* :)

[AHASRADA]

Thanks for your insights, PagesandFields and TheseIrishHills. We are currently using both RS A and Miquon at the moment, along with finishing up Mathematical Reasoning by Critical Thinking Press and Singapore Essentials B.

 

I plan to finish RS A & B by the end of K. I am also seriously considering moving to Math Mammoth for Grade 1, but we'll see when we get there. My dd loves the c-rods and had no trouble remembering the number values for each color (I still have to think about it for a moment myself!), and loved all the introductory activities. We just started Miquon Red last week, and if all continues to go well, we will stick with Miquon through to the end.

 

I definitely agree with the concept of a less-ideal curriculum that gets done is better than an excellent curriculum that sits on the shelf. Been there and done that sooooo many times over the years, but it never hurts to be reminded.

 

Thanks!