How do you improve atrocious handwriting?

[sweetpea3829]

Some background...

 

DD9 has some LDs.  Dyscalculia is a definite, dyslexia is a rule-out.  Spatial weaknesses, visuo-motor coordination issues, and likewise.  

 

Teaching her to write was...a challenge.  If we did not practice a new letter EVERY SINGLE DAY, she would forget it very easily.  She had an extremely difficult time remembering the order of the strokes, and if the letter had any kind of curving to it...well that just doubled the difficulty.

 

But, with HWT, we did finally master letter formation.  And for awhile, her handwriting was decent.  

 

Slowly, over the last two-three years or so, her handwriting has continued to deteriorate.  I can HEAR it when she's writing, that the writing will be messy, because it sounds like chicken scratch!  

 

I'll tell her to slow down, take her time, etc.  But the thing is...she can't attend to her handwriting AND attend to what she's actually writing, at the same time.  

 

Last year, I picked HWT back up and had her do some practicing again.  She really didn't improve much, and was resentful that I was making her do "baby work."  Probably didn't help that her younger brothers are learning handwriting.  Still, she could neatly do the correct strokes and letter formation, when guided by the handwriting program...but in every day use?  Nope.  

 

Once a week, I have them copy their spelling words and I ask for their neatest handwriting. She does fairly well on this, IF I attend to her and remind her frequently to take her time.  

 

Otherwise...she will rush right through, and her penmanship shows it.  

 

Any suggestions?  Or am I going to end up having to just move her to Dragon or something because she literally cannot attend to her content AND mechanics AND handwriting quality all at the same time.  

[sweetpea3829]

Also....forgot to mention...there WERE some developmental vision issues that were addressed, which contributed to her difficulties in learning to write.  But I do not think she has dysgraphia.  

[sbgrace]

My thoughts, based on a child with similar but much less severe issues:

 

1. Prioritize developing keyboarding skills, if that's a possibility for her. My son can compose much better at the keyboard vs. handwritten work, and I can read it. But we had to develop the touch keyboard skills to a decent level first, and that took time.

 

2. I wouldn't give up on developing keyboarding skills and working on print, but I believe I would do Dragon in your situation.

 

3. I have my son practice handwriting (neatly) 15 minutes a day. I switched to Getty Dubay Italic to try to simplify print to cursive, and switching programs took the grade level/repeating aspect I had with HWOT out of the equation. I wouldn't focus on cursive with her, unless that's easier, but I think I would still try to work on handwriting skills I think. We do much of our work orally, and I let him type whatever else he can. But some areas, like math need print. So I still want to work on neatness and legibility generally.

[sweetpea3829]

My thoughts, based on a child with similar but much less severe issues:

 

1. Prioritize developing keyboarding skills, if that's a possibility for her. My son can compose much better at the keyboard vs. handwritten work, and I can read it. But we had to develop the touch keyboard skills to a decent level first, and that took time.

 

2. I wouldn't give up on developing keyboarding skills and working on print, but I believe I would do Dragon in your situation.

 

3. I have my son practice handwriting (neatly) 15 minutes a day. I switched to Getty Dubay Italic to try to simplify print to cursive, and switching programs took the grade level/repeating aspect I had with HWOT out of the equation. I wouldn't focus on cursive with her, unless that's easier, but I think I would still try to work on handwriting skills I think. We do much of our work orally, and I let him type whatever else he can. But some areas, like math need print. So I still want to work on neatness and legibility generally.

 

A long time ago, an OT suggested I might want to teach her cursive right off the bat.  But given her difficulties with any kind of loops/curves/directionality in handwriting, coupled with a long-distance move of our family...I ended up just sticking with the print for the time being.  

 

So we haven't even begun cursive instruction.  My plan is to wait until all four are writing (just working on the youngest) and then I will take a summer and teach the four at once.  As DD's developmental vision issues have improved, and now that she has the proper corrective lenses, I *think* she'll be ok with the looping and directionality of the letters.  I think.  

 

We haven't even started keyboarding skills yet...lol.  Again, I was thinking of teaching them to type via a summer workshop type thing.  The four are all within 3 1/2 years of each other, and none of them use the computer much at all.  

 

Much of her work is written...whether its a math worksheet or something for language arts, vocab., etc.  

[Tanaqui]

I had similar issues. If I remember, I'll scan in a sample of my handwriting to show you later - even today, it's very childish and tends towards illegible.

 

With that said, my handwriting improved easily 100% after I learned to type.

 

I want to say that again, to make sure it makes sense. 12+ years of struggling to write didn't cause any improvement in either the appearance or ease of my handwriting. Learning to type DID. When writing ceased being a source of constant stress and worry and embarrassment, it got a lot better. Not, you know, great, but the improvement was real.

 

And if it hadn't improved at all? Well, then I'd type up my shopping lists today instead of handwriting them. Whatever. It's entirely possible for a child growing up today to spend her life primarily typing and doing very, very little handwriting. I wouldn't say that you should ditch writing altogether, exactly, but it may be wise to decouple handwriting from composing.

[Stellalarella]

I"m trying to remember where I heard this or read it--either WTM or one of SWB's audio lectures.  She was explaining that until 4th grade or after, it's really not possible for kids to get their thoughts down on paper with all proper mechanics and spelling.   I found that advice so helpful when I was working with a dd in 4th grade who just couldn't get it all together.  As I've watched a couple more kids hit or go through that age, I would have to say it's absolutely true.  

 

The nearest comparison I can make is  hammering out a sentence in Latin (I'm heading toward the equivalent of high school Latin 2) then checking it, and discovering I've made spelling mistakes, macron mistakes, etc.  It makes me feel so silly when I reflect on how hard I was thinking to accomplish writing just one sentence.  

 

I read a research paper noted on Don Potter's website about handwriting that gave me a few ideas for my dc.  One was some evidence for how air writing  helps.  Another tip I picked up was from the research was about keeping the paper properly aligned.  If I understood correctly, the students had significantly more trouble when their writing was crossing the midline of the body.  The information is in a paper by Elizabeth Seton referenced on his site.  http://www.donpotter.net/education_pages/handwriting.html

 

Lastly, I was thinking about the challenges I have at my house with dc who struggle.  I believe that how I'm teaching  is good and it will be effective in the long run because I can see incremental results now.  So, what I need are strategies to help ME cope with what it takes to keep teaching, keep hoping, keep being patient.  

 

I don't know if that is where you are as well, but I just want to encourage you because it is a challenging job to teach a dc who has to work so hard to learn.

[sweetpea3829]

I"m trying to remember where I heard this or read it--either WTM or one of SWB's audio lectures.  She was explaining that until 4th grade or after, it's really not possible for kids to get their thoughts down on paper with all proper mechanics and spelling.   I found that advice so helpful when I was working with a dd in 4th grade who just couldn't get it all together.  As I've watched a couple more kids hit or go through that age, I would have to say it's absolutely true.  

 

The nearest comparison I can make is  hammering out a sentence in Latin (I'm heading toward the equivalent of high school Latin 2) then checking it, and discovering I've made spelling mistakes, macron mistakes, etc.  It makes me feel so silly when I reflect on how hard I was thinking to accomplish writing just one sentence.  

 

I read a research paper noted on Don Potter's website about handwriting that gave me a few ideas for my dc.  One was some evidence for how air writing  helps.  Another tip I picked up was from the research was about keeping the paper properly aligned.  If I understood correctly, the students had significantly more trouble when their writing was crossing the midline of the body.  The information is in a paper by Elizabeth Seton referenced on his site.  http://www.donpotter.net/education_pages/handwriting.html

 

Lastly, I was thinking about the challenges I have at my house with dc who struggle.  I believe that how I'm teaching  is good and it will be effective in the long run because I can see incremental results now.  So, what I need are strategies to help ME cope with what it takes to keep teaching, keep hoping, keep being patient.  

 

I don't know if that is where you are as well, but I just want to encourage you because it is a challenging job to teach a dc who has to work so hard to learn.

 

Yes....lol.

 

Actually, I kind of think this is how we got to this level of her handwriting being so poor.  For the last 2-3 years, I've deliberately NOT pushed her hard on her handwriting.  She works SO hard on everything else...I was hoping the handwriting would resolve itself while we focused on her true hard areas.     

 

But its not.  Its just getting worse.  All of it.  Her math penmanship is terrible, too...lol.  Admittedly, ALL of her content areas are hard for her.  

[sbgrace]

A long time ago, an OT suggested I might want to teach her cursive right off the bat.  But given her difficulties with any kind of loops/curves/directionality in handwriting, coupled with a long-distance move of our family...I ended up just sticking with the print for the time being.  

 

So we haven't even begun cursive instruction.  My plan is to wait until all four are writing (just working on the youngest) and then I will take a summer and teach the four at once.  As DD's developmental vision issues have improved, and now that she has the proper corrective lenses, I *think* she'll be ok with the looping and directionality of the letters.  I think.  

 

We haven't even started keyboarding skills yet...lol.  Again, I was thinking of teaching them to type via a summer workshop type thing.  The four are all within 3 1/2 years of each other, and none of them use the computer much at all.  

 

Much of her work is written...whether its a math worksheet or something for language arts, vocab., etc.  

 

Ok, I will say that the Getty Dubay doesn't have loops. It's sort of connected print almost. Also, he seems to be doing better with directionality (an issue for mine too) with "cursive". The cursive in Getty Dubay is print type letters, so I am reinforcing both at the same time, but the connections mean I'm not fighting with reversals. He may well go back to print, but I think the cursive is helping him with that anyway. 

 

I wouldn't put the keyboarding off any longer. She will likely need quite a bit of time to get proficient, and this skill may do worlds of good for her ability to put her mind on paper. It's been fantastic for my son. I wish I had started earlier.

 

Do you have to have a lot of writing? I know I'm only schooling 2, but I do an awful lot orally or with myself scribing. I also have a child with such major attention issues that school with him takes about 3 x's his twin's rate, and with me beside him the entire time. I even do things like Evan Moore Daily Language Review workbooks orally. A lot of these things take little time. It would take me as long to grade it if we didn't do them orally. He does some math work, all spelling, and his handwriting practice using handwriting. Nothing else, though. And handwriting isn't nearly so difficult as it is for your daughter.

[Jan in SC]

My son writes better with smaller lines, not larger ones. I switched to college ruled paper and he did much better. I think for some people, the less amount of time your hand and arm must coordinate with your brain, the better.

 

I also taught him cursive, and he loved that. I do not like handwriting without tears. I think it creates tears. Try something really simple, like Calvert script. When I taught him cursive, it gave me a chance to sit with him and make sure he was doing his loops and lines in the correct direction.

 

Teaching with shaving cream is a non- threatening way to teach. Let her play with modeling clay to build her hand strength. A lot of handwriting issues come from shoulder strength. Encourage her to do wheelbarrow walks, cartwheels and hand stands.

 

If she doesn't hold her pencil correctly, let her use a grip. A mechanical pencil will force her to use less pressure to write and will relieve hand stress, but will take some patience.

[Ellie]

 

If she doesn't hold her pencil correctly, let her use a grip. A mechanical pencil will force her to use less pressure to write and will relieve hand stress, but will take some patience.

 

Some children do much better with a fountain pen.

[OneStepAtATime]

Your child almost certainly has dysgraphia.  Writing will always be a challenge.  

 

Get her learning keyboarding ASAP but be aware that keyboarding may also take a tremendous amount of time.  Look at a program like Type to Learn 4 or Typing Pal.  You can get them through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op, sometimes on sale for very little.  TTL4 is more for younger kids and can be fun.  Lots of games that actually DO work on typing skills.  You are a Secret Agent and type to save critical information.  DS10 enjoys this program and is slowly making progress.  You need to get a program that you can set w.p.m. expectations very, very low while they work on accuracy.  Like 5 w.p.m.  And accuracy at 95% instead of 100% or frustration will just demoralize them to the point they don't make progress.  Accuracy over speed is critical.  It takes time for the motor planning and muscle memory to get into place.  Plan on the program taking twice as long for this child as a NT kid.

 

Also, yes, absolutely start looking into other assistive technologies such as Dragon Naturally Speaking, Inspiration Software, even Ginger.  Plan for the long term.  Look at ways to help her get more effective at output.  

 

And definitely do a lot of scribing for her.  Consistent handwriting practice will also be important.  Just be aware that no matter how much practice she gets it probably won't solve the underlying issue and may demoralize her to the point she no longer even wants to try.  Separate out the actual handwriting from content output with scribing.  She may not be capable at all at this point of working on both at the same time and forcing her to try could cause more difficulties, not fix them.  Developmentally, she may need a LOT more time to bring these processes together (And actually both are quite complex and use many systems that are not readily apparent to a layman.  If any one of these systems is out of sync writing can be a huge, huge challenge.)

 

Hugs and best wishes.  DS is dysgraphic.,  I have a husband and nephew who are also dysgraphic.  It isn't the end of the world.  Just a bit frustrating.  My nephew is now in college and doing quite well.  But he has to use assistive technologies to function effectively with his handwriting.  My husband is a very successful engineer, but he definitely types everything and has an assistant help out, too.  His handwriting is still atrocious after years of working on it.  Didn't slow him down much once he got out of school because he types very quickly.

[JuliQ]

Regarding composition: If she's writing and getting her ideas down, perhaps an audio recording that she can transcribe from later?

 

Regarding penmanship: My daughter's penmanship took a marked upswing when I stopped telling her which letter or work *I* thought was her best handwriting, and started asking her to mark which letter or word *she* thought was her best handwriting.

 

Best of luck!  Your love is giving her the best opportunity! 

[SkateLeft]

My dd #2 struggled with the physical act of handwriting for a long time. She had no LDs, apart from fine motor delays. When she was 12, I took her to OT, and they taught her cursive in about 6 weeks. They started by having her write large letters on a classroom whiteboard, then gradually move down to writing smaller letters. She had daily homework using Write-On Handwriting's Conquering Cursive (published by EPS), and lots of fine motor development activities. It was quite intensive, and not something that I would have had the time or knowledge to duplicate at home. However, at the end of 6 weeks, her handwriting was legible for the first time in her life, and it was definitely significantly easier for her physically than it ever had been before. She still needed lots of practice, but OT got us over the biggest hurdle.

 

I definitely think it was easier for her to learn cursive than it would have been for her to learn manuscript at that time. While she doesn't write in cursive at all, and really didn't retain it, she does do sort of a manuscript/cursive hybrid that's pretty legible. She can write quickly enough to take notes in her college classes, which was really the whole goal.

 

All this to say, if it's possible to get some OT remediation, it might be really helpful! It was definitely the solution for us.

 

[Kalmia]

 

 

I'll tell her to slow down, take her time, etc.  But the thing is...she can't attend to her handwriting AND attend to what she's actually writing, at the same time.  

 

 

Any suggestions?  Or am I going to end up having to just move her to Dragon or something because she literally cannot attend to her content AND mechanics AND handwriting quality all at the same time.  

 

We just had our son tested with the WISC II and the WIAT. The testing revealed than indeed he literally could not attend to the content and mechanics at the same time. For the processing speed tests that involved no motor skills (verbal response only) he tested high average. For the processing speed tests that included any motor skill (including drawing lines between things or pointing out the pattern of lights in some sort of board with holes in it) his processing speed dropped THREE STANDARD DEVIATIONS. He has sensory processing disorder and his issues with proprioception are at the root of the writing failure. His body is not sending the correct sensory information to his mind. He is not receiving the feedback from the pencil pressing against the paper. He is not able to engage the proper muscles to put the parts of the letters together. Yet, his brain tries very hard to do the task with this limited and incorrect information! So it takes up a lot of working memory and reduces his processing speed so much that he literally loses the ability to produce the thoughts he could narrate to you a few minutes earlier. Even typing slows his processing speed as his brain has to work so much harder than ours to get those fingers in the right place.

 

I modified his homeschooling so that all his content areas were separated from writing. He went through various writing curricula at his own slow pace, but as I allowed verbal answers to most everything in content subjects he was not held back in those. When he went back to school, EVERYTHING was tied back to writing and his grades tanked. The teachers knew he understood the material, he just cannot express it in writing. They are suggesting a 504 for motor handicap (proprioception). He will be allowed to use Dragon dictation, record his answers on his phone, or take oral tests if need be.

 

Look up dysgraphia and proprioception and processing speed.

[sweetpea3829]

So I went and took some sample pics today...lol.  

 

The first picture is her vocabulary.  They choose two words from each chapter of whatever we're reading, and look them up.  They write down the definitions and share them during our reading lesson.  (They meaning...my oldest two, whom I school together for LA).  

 

The second picture is today's writing assignment.  She was to copy down yesterday's dictation, as neatly as she could.  

 

 

[sweetpea3829]

Ok...well, I'm not very good at attaching pictures, lol.  

 

 

But I think this attached them.  Anyways, the one where she put effort into her handwriting is actually pretty decent.  We talked about how the words are just a bit too close together, and some of her letters are formed a bit off.  But overall, it is FAR neater than what she typically puts out.  

 

Most of her writing WAS, at one point, as decent as this second sample.  

 

How would I go about having her formally assessed for dysgraphia?  She did have a full neuro-educational eval done both by the school department and then by a private neuropsychologist.  She's had OT evals as well, and I do believe there are some sensory issues at work here as well.  

 

She has an IEP with the school dept, and if she requires assistive technology, I'll want that added to her IEP for long-term documentation.  If she does go on to college, she will need these accommodations documented over the long-term.  

 

 

[sweetpea3829]

One more try....lol.  This would be the first handwriting sample, without prompting for neatness.  

[Vida Winter]

Sweetpea, I think she did pretty good. I wouldn't call it atrocious by any means. Keep working steadily and she will do fine.

[OneStepAtATime]

Goodness that really doesn't look atrocious to me, either.  Do your other kids just have super neat handwriting?  :)

 

I guarantee my Dad,  husband, nephew and brother all have far worse handwriting than that.  

[Stellalarella]

My dd #2 struggled with the physical act of handwriting for a long time. She had no LDs, apart from fine motor delays. When she was 12, I took her to OT, and they taught her cursive in about 6 weeks. They started by having her write large letters on a classroom whiteboard, then gradually move down to writing smaller letters. She had daily homework using Write-On Handwriting's Conquering Cursive (published by EPS), and lots of fine motor development activities. It was quite intensive, and not something that I would have had the time or knowledge to duplicate at home. However, at the end of 6 weeks, her handwriting was legible for the first time in her life, and it was definitely significantly easier for her physically than it ever had been before. She still needed lots of practice, but OT got us over the biggest hurdle.

 

I definitely think it was easier for her to learn cursive than it would have been for her to learn manuscript at that time. While she doesn't write in cursive at all, and really didn't retain it, she does do sort of a manuscript/cursive hybrid that's pretty legible. She can write quickly enough to take notes in her college classes, which was really the whole goal.

 

All this to say, if it's possible to get some OT remediation, it might be really helpful! It was definitely the solution for us.

 

Yes on the large letters.  Some of the research I referred to earlier talked about really, really big letters and also air writing very large letters.

[sbgrace]

That handwriting looks quite a bit better than my son. She did great!

 

 

[TheAttachedMama]

I agree with others, that handwriting looked pretty decent to me!   I would say that is within range of a typical 9 year old.  (Some write neater, some much more sloppy!)  

[Mommy22alyns]

That doesn't look so bad to me... my 9 (almost 10) yo has what I would call "atrocious" handwriting too.

[Tanaqui]

That doesn't look so bad to me. Mine at that age was most definitely worse. If I'm not being careful, it often is worse today!

[sweetpea3829]

LOL, ok, that makes me feel better!  I am still a bit concerned though, because her handwriting is definitely deteriorating, instead of improving.  

 

Somebody asked if everybody else has neat handwriting and the answer is that the next two children (8 and almost 7) have pretty neat handwriting.  The youngest is halfway through learning all of his letter formations and I can tell that his fine motor control is nowhere near as strong as his older brothers.  But he has not had any difficulty in learning the strokes.  He just has weaker fine motor skills.

 

Plus, he's the only lefty in the family, so there's that...lol.  

[Incognito]

Yeah, I would be pretty excited about that writing.  It is rare for it to be that nice from my struggler.

 

For math, have you tried using graph paper to help your child line up the numbers?

[TheAttachedMama]

LOL, ok, that makes me feel better!  I am still a bit concerned though, because her handwriting is definitely deteriorating, instead of improving.  

 

Somebody asked if everybody else has neat handwriting and the answer is that the next two children (8 and almost 7) have pretty neat handwriting.  The youngest is halfway through learning all of his letter formations and I can tell that his fine motor control is nowhere near as strong as his older brothers.  But he has not had any difficulty in learning the strokes.  He just has weaker fine motor skills.

 

Plus, he's the only lefty in the family, so there's that...lol.  

 

I wouldn't be too worried.

I am in a co-op with other kids around that same age and they ALL right about like that.   There are a few girls with neater handwriting, but they are just as much the exception as a kid with really sloppy handwriting. 

 

My son is 8 and his handwriting looks a lot like that.   I'm not thrilled with his handwriting, but I am not stressing either.  

 

I have found that it helps if I do the following it helps:

 

1)  Constantly mention the importance of neat handwriting outside of school.  We talk a lot about how we are often judged by how we spell or our penmanship.  (It is not 'right', but it is very true!)   Even if you have a really good thought or message, people often dismiss your ideas if they can't read your handwriting.   Even if you are very intelligent, if you have a lot of misspellings in your writing, people will think less of you.  (It is not right, but again...it happens!  Trust me, I know!  I am the worst speller in the world.)  

 

Sometimes I drive this example home by writing a very profound message in chicken scratch.  Then I write the exact same message in very neat handwriting.  I ask them to judge for themselves which person's message they would rather read.   I ask them to judge for themselves which person they would be more likely to trust or listen to.  Etc. etc.   Again, it isn't RIGHT to judge someone by how they right, but it happens a lot in our society.

 

2)   Before they write anything, I remind them to slow down and use their best handwriting.   I am a firm believer that the more often you practice something the easier it gets.   And this goes for kids on all areas of the spectrum in handwriting.   It might never become easy or beautiful for some kids.  But practice never hurts.  Sometimes just a simple reminder before they do copywork does magic.   Or just give them a quick reminder before you dictate a spelling list.   The more you remind them to write neat, the more they remember to TRY.   And the more they practice writing neat, the better.

 

3)   Water the Flowers and Pull the Weeds.   Give a lot of VERY specific compliments on what they are doing right before you give any critisism.   (Even if you have to look really, really hard!)  

 

4)  Give them very, very specific feedback.   Say things like, "Today lets make it a goal to REALLY pay attention to letter size.  Lets make sure all of our letters sit right on the bottom line and bump the middle line, etc. etc."  Or, "Lets make it a goal to pay attention to slant.  All of our letters should be slanted in the same direction."  Or, "Notice how small this loop is in this letter.  Try making it just a little bit wider like this."  Or, "start your c slightly below the line and curve it up like this."  When you do give feedback like this, allow them to practice a few strokes in isolation before they continue.