VCU dropping SAT requirement for applicants with 3.3+ GPA

[8filltheheart]

For those unfamiliar with VCU, it is the largest public university in VA. We are very familiar with VCU, 2 of our kids have taken classes there.

 

http://www.news.vcu.edu/article/VCU_to_drop_SAT_requirement

[thegeyser]

Oh my! I am from Richmond. What do you think this means for homeschoolers? My kids are still many, many years away from college.

[8filltheheart]

I am not sure. They were not at all biased against us as homeschoolers.

[snowbeltmom]

“We are not denying a transformative education to students who we know would flourish here just because they don't have a certain SAT score,†Rao said. “So beginning this fall, your ability to succeed at VCU will no longer depend on your ability to pass a test that’s fundamentally flawed.â€

 

If they think the test is "fundamentally flawed", why are they still going to require those who want to study engineering to submit the SAT?

[bettyandbob]

“We are not denying a transformative education to students who we know would flourish here just because they don't have a certain SAT score,†Rao said. “So beginning this fall, your ability to succeed at VCU will no longer depend on your ability to pass a test that’s fundamentally flawed.â€

 

If they think the test is "fundamentally flawed", why are they still going to require those who want to study engineering to submit the SAT?

 

They didn't specify how it was flawed. I've noticed most criticisms of standardized tests hit reading and writing assessments more than math. If that's the thinking behind the VCU decision, it makes sense they still want to see a math score. 

 

They were purposely vague and I suspect this is a trial. It will be interesting to see what happens as they admit students and track performance. A 3.3 GPA is meaningless if not considered against the type of classes the student has taken. However, the state has tried to even the playing field by having the virtual school provide a full slate of AP classes, so that academically challenging classes are available to all. 

[snowbeltmom]

They didn't specify how it was flawed. I've noticed most criticisms of standardized tests hit reading and writing assessments more than math. If that's the thinking behind the VCU decision, it makes sense they still want to see a math score. 

 

They were purposely vague and I suspect this is a trial. It will be interesting to see what happens as they admit students and track performance. A 3.3 GPA is meaningless if not considered against the type of classes the student has taken. However, the state has tried to even the playing field by having the virtual school provide a full slate of AP classes, so that academically challenging classes are available to all. 

I wonder if all they are looking at is the math score, why they don't ask those majoring in engineering to submit a Math Level II Subject Test score?  That score would be more meaningful since higher level math is tested, would cost less, and only takes an hour.

 

It will be interesting to see if homeschoolers will be required to submit the SAT regardless of major. 

[8filltheheart]

VCU is a very large school. When small schools go test optional, it doesn't really surprise me. This one really caught me off guard. I suspect they are experimenting to see how it goes.

 

Fwiw, we did submit test scores, but we were asking for exceptions to all of their rules. They admitted Ds at a younger age and allowed him to take classes that were not on their approved for DE list. They were very nice to work with.

[RootAnn]

I wonder if all they are looking at is the math score, why they don't ask those majoring in engineering to submit a Math Level II Subject Test score?  That score would be more meaningful since higher level math is tested, would cost less, and only takes an hour.

 

Except in some places, like where I live, it is difficult to find some place that gives the SAT II tests without driving a couple of hours, at least. It is much easier to find the ACT here -- and VCU takes the ACT as well as the SAT.

 

I did notice that you can't ask them to waive the requirement for the SAT if you want to be considered for any kind of merit aid / scholarship. That makes sense. If you click through to their site, you can find where Engineering students have to score a minimum 1120 on the SAT (not including essay) to get into the engineering college, so they aren't just looking for the math score.

[Serenade]

Interesting. I think it's a good choice. The college board has too much interest and power

 

Amen.

[Starr]

Not requiring does not mean you will be accepted. And home schoolers always have to prove their education in some form other than home grades. 

[Gratia271]

If they think the test is "fundamentally flawed", why are they still going to require those who want to study engineering to submit the SAT?

 

Funny, I noticed that too.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

By making testing optional, they'll likely receive more applications and their acceptance rate will decrease moving them up in ratings.  They may also increase yield as students who have higher GPAs but low test scores would find it harder to be accepted into similarly ranked colleges which do require test scores.   There are many private schools which are test optional, but fewer public ones.  I noticed on the list that the California State Universities CSUs are test optional while the Universities of California UCs are not.   I think we'll be seeing more colleges becoming test optional.  

 

List of test optional colleges:  http://www.fairtest.org/university/optional

[ErinE]

They didn't specify how it was flawed. I've noticed most criticisms of standardized tests hit reading and writing assessments more than math. If that's the thinking behind the VCU decision, it makes sense they still want to see a math score. 

 

They were purposely vague and I suspect this is a trial. It will be interesting to see what happens as they admit students and track performance. A 3.3 GPA is meaningless if not considered against the type of classes the student has taken. However, the state has tried to even the playing field by having the virtual school provide a full slate of AP classes, so that academically challenging classes are available to all. 

 

In my experience, 3.3 is meaningless even from certain schools. In many cities, there's great private and Catholic schools where getting above a 3.3 is a major achievement. Other high schools have 25% of the class with above a 4.0 GPA (weighted score).

[Kathy in Richmond]

In my experience, 3.3 is meaningless even from certain schools. In many cities, there's great private and Catholic schools where getting above a 3.3 is a major achievement. Other high schools have 25% of the class with above a 4.0 GPA (weighted score).

 

:iagree: GPA only has meaning in the context of each school.

 

I live near VCU. I've attended the graduation ceremony of the neighborhood high school when my friends' kids have graduated. During the ceremony, they ask all graduates with a (weighted) 4.0 or better to stand up, and half of the graduating class rises! If you go down to a 3.3, I bet most of them would be included.

 

Maybe I'm cynical, but I think that Teachin'Mine is onto something. Sounds like a great way to get those application numbers up.

 

[G5052]

Not requiring does not mean you will be accepted. And home schoolers always have to prove their education in some form other than home grades. 

 

Yes, I think they're broadening the field because they don't like the SAT.

 

But if all you give them is a 3.3 GPA with no SAT, no ACT, no SAT II's, no AP's, and no dual enrollment?  I can't imagine that they'd look upon that favorably.

 

It's the old "trust but verify" situation.  If there's no outside proof, you may be in trouble.

[snowbeltmom]

Yes, I think they're broadening the field because they don't like the SAT.

 

 

They say that the SAT is "fundamentally flawed", but their actual policies don't support that assertion.   Not only do they require the SAT for engineering majors, but as RootAnn pointed out, they also require submission of the SAT in order to be considered for merit awards.

 

That doesn't sound to me like a college that doesn't like the SAT. 

 

Put me in the cynical camp.  This is an attempt by the university to increase its applications with hopes up moving up on the US News Rankings list.

 

[bettyandbob]

The other thing not stated is whether VCU is looking at weighted or unweighted GPA. There 2 state schools in Virginia that specifically state they only consider unweighted GPA.

 

If they are looking at only unweighted GPA and considering intensity of courseload (How many AP classes did the student take for example), then that would make sense. VCU knows that it can expect to see AP courses from every public school student in the state because Virginia Virtual offers AP courses. VVA was started to help serve students in areas of the state that did not have the capacity to offer AP courses. Initially, the high school courses were only available to students enrolled in school districts in a very rural part of the state. Now, the courses are available to all public school students in the state, whether the student pays depends on several factors, but it can be said that every public school student in the state has access for free to AP courses. This is an attempt by the state to even the playing field.

 

Anyway, if admissions is looking at an unweighted GPA of 3.3 and a transcript that includes 4 AP (or IB or DE) classes (2 junior year, 2 senior year) then that starts to narrow down the randomness of quality one might find otherwise.

 

I think VCU is not specifying because they are still figuring out how they are really going to handle it.

[raptor_dad]

For those unfamiliar with VCU, it is the largest public university in VA. We are very familiar with VCU, 2 of our kids have taken classes there.

 

http://www.news.vcu.edu/article/VCU_to_drop_SAT_requirement

 

That whole announcement was weird. Especially the quote about VCU being "the first of the three research universities in Virginia to do so". In addition to UVA and VT, Old Dominion and George Mason are public research universities and there are probably others. George Mason is larger than VCU overall and ~1000 less undergrad. They have been test optional with a 3.5 GPA since 2006.

 

If you look at George Mason's test optional requirements[1] they require 3.5 gpa and top 20% class rank and other soft factors. GMU explicitly denies this option for athletes, merit scholarships, the engineering school, and homeschoolers. It sounds like VCU will be similar?? with softer GPA and class rank.

 

[1]http://admissions.gmu.edu/freshmen/scoreOptional.asp

[Tsuga]

They say that the SAT is "fundamentally flawed", but their actual policies don't support that assertion.   Not only do they require the SAT for engineering majors, but as RootAnn pointed out, they also require submission of the SAT in order to be considered for merit awards.

 

That doesn't sound to me like a college that doesn't like the SAT. 

 

Put me in the cynical camp.  This is an attempt by the university to increase its applications with hopes up moving up on the US News Rankings list.

 

 

It is entirely possible that this was a decision that was considered within the college and that people within the college disagreed. If they risked losing key engineering faculty, they could have given in. That might have been the reason George Mason did it that way as well.

 

For merit aid, the college does not actually control the conditions for every award. Many colleges' merit aid is controlled by a separate foundation, or more than one foundation, as well as boards who manage specific funds for specific awards.

 

I am willing to bet that this was an enormous debate within the college for a very, very long time.

 

What I would LOVE to see would be colleges doing their own entrance exams and not having one agency have a huge monopoly on it. I'm not opposed to exams. I am opposed to monopolies. Also, if they had entrance exams, then you would not be able to game the system by applying to 50 different schools (which only rich people can do). Instead everyone would have to study.

 

Technologically, to offer a menu of schools' exams over a server by a non-interested testing center would not be difficult.

 

I'll bet if their engineering school could do that they would.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Have you ever looked at the old college exams? I poked around them for a while last year. They make a battery of AP exams look like a cake walk. But then there would be different outcomes for different groups.

 

I think some of the test optional moves allow the school to pick whom they will without a student being able to sue them for picking someone less qualified. If scores aren't officially considered then a 1200 student can be discriminated against in favor of a 1000 student.

[Tsuga]

I think it should be harder, though. Just less monopolistic. I'm not opposed to high standards.