Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 ... to tell my daughter that she can relax at school and doesn't need to think about stuff, so she can concentrate at after-school programs and enrichment where they are working at a higher level? Â Okay, okay, I know, it would be. Â But gosh darn I am tired of telling my daughter to work hard at school and she gets the same marks for grade level, above grade level, and stellar. Then she doesn't want to do math enrichment. So she's working her butt off for some ridiculously easy diagram, getting no credit and also learning nothing, but then at home she's tired and doesn't want to talk about math concepts. Â I'm so irritated right now because she stopped capitalizing. "The teacher doesn't notice so I don't think I have to." Â ARGH. Â Sorry, just frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Not awful, but then she would rightly ask the question : "what do I have to go to school for?" Â And she will figure it out herself anyway. My DD quickly realized that she did not have to pay attention because she'd get all As anyway by listening with 10% of her brain. But that did not solve the problem of being too tired at the end of the school day to do any meaningful enrichment - after seven hours just being at school, mine just wanted to relax and play and not do math. Can't say I blame them. It was not working hard that was exhausting, it was the sheer amount of time subject to stupid rules and boredom. We ultimately pulled the plug because it was getting ridiculous parking a smart child in such an institution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 What is she doing at school that is stopping her from concentrating at the enrichment courses?  I could see telling my child that she has met the requrements for xyz and now can scale back on stuff that doesn't matter anyway. For example, I told Miss E that I will no longer ask her about AR testing (for this trimester) because she is way ahead of where she needs to be to meet the annual stretch goal by year-end.  As long as my kids are comfortably in the A range, I don't say much. I will just let them know if they get a random low grade so they know what to avoid doing in the future. It is up to them and their teachers how they prioritize their time at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 Not awful, but then she would rightly ask the question : "what do I have to go to school for?" Â And she will figure it out herself anyway. My DD quickly realized that she did not have to pay attention because she'd get all As anyway by listening with 10% of her brain. But that did not solve the problem of being too tired at the end of the school day to do any meaningful enrichment - after seven hours at school, mine just wanted to relax and play and not do math. Can't say I blame them. We ultimately pulled the plug because it was getting ridiculous parking a smart child in such an institution. Â It's free daycare. I need to work (I post here while running scripts :) ). I don't say it that way because I don't want it repeated. I tell them, "Your job at school is to follow instructions. My job at work is to follow instructions and think. If you follow enough instructions, eventually, they let you think!" Â That's why so many kids like art, I think. They let them think! Â Â What is she doing at school that is stopping her from concentrating at the enrichment courses? Â Mainly looking at paper. I mean you can only sit at a desk and follow instructions for so much of the day. It doesn't matter how easy it is. Math isn't her favorite. She's great at it but she isn't energized by it--even when we do enrichment at home. So by the end of the day one more worksheet is the last thing she wants. Â She can't get an A. She will get mostly "at grade level" (it's below, at, or above, 2, 3, or 4). You have to just knock their socks off, like they have to think, "This is incontrovertibly two grade levels above every single time," to get a 4. And nobody does that. Like I said, even the gifted kids were not getting anywhere near all fours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 ... to tell my daughter that she can relax at school and doesn't need to think about stuff, so she can concentrate at after-school programs and enrichment where they are working at a higher level? Your daughter is still young. I'll let her figure out how to optimize her energy/attention. I won't ask her to work hard in school but I won't accept sloppy work either. You set what you think is an acceptable minimum for school work. Â If you tell your daughter she can relax for school now, it might become a power struggle down the road when you homeschool her again. Â What time does she finish school? My older was able to afterschool math after 30mins-1hr of afternoon tea (downtime). He got home at 2:30pm though so we got after schooling done before dinner at 5:30pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 We don't homeschool nor do we ever expect to. She's at school while I work. So that's not a concern. When she gets to high school and honors is based on work and interest and not having an IQ of 150, then she can challenge herself and work hard. Â As for an hour of downtime, they get that now and homework is still a pain. I wish they'd just go through it. Maybe we will just not do math homework anymore and I will tell the school they're doing Russian math at their ability level. But she gets rewarded for doing her math. She can't participate in activities if it's not done. Â The writing they do is not graded. :P So that's really helpful. (NOT! Also, the eighties are back.) Â I am going to start telling her I'm not writing back until it's grammatically correct I think. But it's supposed to be "thoughtful". I do put thought into it but I'm not sure what the teacher is looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 It's free daycare. I need to work (I post here while running scripts :) ). I don't say it that way because I don't want it repeated. I tell them, "Your job at school is to follow instructions. My job at work is to follow instructions and think. If you follow enough instructions, eventually, they let you think!" Â I sympathize with the predicament. Any chance you could make homeschooling work WITH your job? I had never even entertained the notion that this is something normal people do, and I certainly was not about to quit my job - but the problem became so grave that I took the plunge. It has been stressful homeschooling and working, and I am fortunate that I have some flexibility in my schedule and the opportunity to bring the kids to work with me so they could do schoolwork at my office. (In the end, it was just a few years where that was necessary; in the end, they worked at home.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 That is not an option. I cannot think around the kids, heh. Â Maybe when they get older. I appreciate the suggestion, though. I should have made it clear that we're not going to homeschool within the next four years at least, and even then, I doubt she'd want to. School is to see friends for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Is her teacher open to negotiation? I'm lucky that all my kids PS teachers are okay with kids skipping homework that is "busywork" to them. Some PS schools here start "streaming" at 6th grade to pick kids that will do algebra 1 at 7th grade. So depending on the middle school she might be attending, she might have to start putting in effort then.(ETA: based on scores/grades and teacher's recommendation) Does sunset come early for you? I find that once sunset is earlier like 5pm, I have to flood my home with light to get my kids to do seatwork. When sunset is at or after 7pm, they are more energetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 Arcadia, that is an excellent point. Yes, we are far north. I will try that!  Heigh Ho, thank you for your thoughtful response. We have considered the gifted program. She doesn't want to test again. She is not profoundly gifted and that is the cutoff and it is not negotiable. Subject acceleration, which we do, will not help on the IQ test. She does not have an IQ of 150 (145 in her highest area) so forget it. It is not based on performance. There is a long, long story behind this and a lot of work going into it so I'm really not going to go into it further. I think you replied to my other posts on another thread about this--we might just have a fundamental disagreement as to whether it's worth it to prep for that. It's a great program but I don't know that it teaches the skills that my daughter would benefit from. Those kids just think differently. My daughter thinks quickly.  8th Algebra is what I took. I did terribly for a lot of reasons but usually it takes me a while to get the concept, then I can use it very well. But my daughter isn't like me. She's a procedural thinker.  I will speak to the teacher about her homework. The homework is the main thing. I don't mind her participating in class. What I mind is an hour after school of negotiating basic skills that could be used for tailored advancement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 She doesn't do it. She sits there and hums and draws. Then she finishes 1/3 in two minutes, easily, then hums for another 15 minutes. When there is sufficient motivation--say, she has an activity to go to--she will finish it in 5 minutes. Â She will do homework I assign during the summer with less dallying. Â I have tried timers, etc. by the way. It just ups the ante. Timer goes off, then what? Ugh. Â She performs in class, though, which is why I wish we had this time for tutoring or something else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Can you enrich before school instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 kiana, yes and no. Yes because theoretically, that's a great time. No because I go in to work early and am with the kids after school. My loving partner is getting four kids out the door during that time--it's just not realistic or fair to ask him to do that. Â However, all these suggestions are good ideas. Maybe I'll ask her to wake early and do homework then--like, before I leave? Then no homework in the evenings? Something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twolittleboys Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 That must be really frustrating for you. Honestly though, I can totally understand that your daughter doesn't want to do any more "school" after basically spending all day there. Even if the classes aren't challenging listening to teachers, following instructions, interacting with the other kids etc. is tiring.  We are kind of in the same position as homeschooling is not an option. Even though my kids come home much earlier we really don't afterschool much (more during vacations than during the school year). My sons are just exhausted most days and really need down-time. Obviously, kids are different and this wouldn't be a problem for some but it sounds like it might be a bit of a concern for your daughter as well.  It seems there isn't much you can do as far as school itself is concerned. My question is why you are homeschooling/what your goals are. I don't mean this in the "why bother" way but really as in "what do you think you/your daughter will get out of it" way. I can think of various reasons for afterschooling (e.g. helping a child in areas of difficulty, providing challenge, strengthen a week curriculum at school etc.). I think it is important to look at your motivation to figure out how best to achieve your objective given the constraints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 Twolittleboys, yes, my kids are mentally exhausted after school. I imagine it's like when I waited tables during college. That was by far the most mentally challenging part of my day. I had to be "on". No, I did not find the tasks intellectually stimulating. It was the lack of stimulation and being "good" that was work. So I do empathize with the kids. Â As for the goals, great question. I'd like her to learn something before she reaches the age of 13, which is when, if she were left to her own devices, she'd be put into algebra. That is the lowest non-remedial level. They will not advance her based on anything else, as far as I can tell. It will just be mainstream public school for everyone under the 99th%ile. Â So I'd like her to be learning something to keep her brain alive, I guess. I want to provide a challenge as well as strengthen a curriculum which is, though theoretically sound, somewhat flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Ugh, I have a homework dawdler too. My kids are in 3rd (not sure how old yours are) and we're getting to the point where they understand it is best to finish their work so they can chill and play. This only works if I rein in my tendency to give them more to do if they get done early. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twolittleboys Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Twolittleboys, yes, my kids are mentally exhausted after school. I imagine it's like when I waited tables during college. That was by far the most mentally challenging part of my day. I had to be "on". No, I did not find the tasks intellectually stimulating. It was the lack of stimulation and being "good" that was work. So I do empathize with the kids. Â As for the goals, great question. I'd like her to learn something before she reaches the age of 13, which is when, if she were left to her own devices, she'd be put into algebra. That is the lowest non-remedial level. They will not advance her based on anything else, as far as I can tell. It will just be mainstream public school for everyone under the 99th%ile. Â So I'd like her to be learning something to keep her brain alive, I guess. I want to provide a challenge as well as strengthen a curriculum which is, though theoretically sound, somewhat flat. Â In that case I think I would concentrate more on fostering a love of learning than enriching math (provided the math at school is somewhat sufficient/rigorous enough not to put her at a disadvantage). What are her favorite subjects/interests? (Of course if math is her favorite/strength I would continue with math). I would try to find the most "interesting", un-school-like subject/method that would still challenge her brain (i.e. no worksheets etc.). Â It sounds like your daughter isn't bothered by the slow pace at school herself. While that on one side can be a bit worrisome (not living up to potential) at least it appears she doesn't have problems fitting in/dealing with the reality of school. Â I do understand the problem though. We just had a one week vacation and I again realized how many things my kids do not know/are not exposed to (for example History doesn't start until sixth grade here). And if we were homeschooling (or during vacations) I could get the boys to be excited about learning (well, not everything or all the time but for the most part). Before my older son started school he was so creative, always working on projects etc. If it were up to me we could accelerate quite a bit but as it is there really is little time/energy for adding educational activities in the afternoon (even though my kids have a lot more free time and I work from home). Â But given our situation my new plan is to try to add in a bit of extra stuff: more read-alouds, some history/geography, maybe a couple of science projects, logic puzzles etc. Not sure how well this will work though as there is always so much other stuff to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 She is good at math. She is interested in recreation. It's not that she's lazy, it's just that math requires concentration and she'd prefer not to work. So letting her lead is really not an option. Otherwise I'd just let it go. Â It sounds like we are in similar situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 Ugh, I have a homework dawdler too. My kids are in 3rd (not sure how old yours are) and we're getting to the point where they understand it is best to finish their work so they can chill and play. This only works if I rein in my tendency to give them more to do if they get done early. ;)  K and 2nd. :P  I want them to play first while it's still light, so they can be outdoors. So I don't want to start them with homework that early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I want them to play first while it's still light, so they can be outdoors. So I don't want to start them with homework that early.What we did with the early sunset was to do park about 2hrs before sunset and do schoolwork after sunset. So for us it worked out to 3-5pm outdoor playtime, early dinner then schoolwork. My 9 year old has always been self directed but my 8 year old dawdler needs to have whatever needs done/is planned put on his study desk. We get done by 7pm latest. Â ETA: My older finished SM 2,3,4 when afterschooling in K and 1st. We reached home by 3pm because they chase squirrels along the way. School ended at 2:15pm. I did the afterschool LA during school breaks (winter, spring, summer) ETA: SM - Singapore primary math standards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 You mean Saxon Math? We have a German book... My daughter doesn't start until 9, gets home at 4-ish. One hour to play, but they do get three recesses at school. Dark at 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 You mean Saxon Math?Singapore primary math standards edition. Their PS school was 8:15am to 2:15pm with a 15min recess and 20min lunch. Higher grades end at 3:15pm.Your time from school dismissal to sunset is much shorter than for my kids :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Up until today, I couldn't get my kids to play outside after school (because it was *my* idea). Today they finally introduced themselves to the new kids next door, and now they don't want to do anything but play outside. :P So it's back to the drawing board as far as schedules go. We have extracurriculars most evenings, so we really do need to compact the homework time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 We have great neighbors and getting the kids to concentrate on schoolwork is hard partly due to that. The children in this group, while still children, are great. I like that my children play with them. We are very fortunate! Â And yes, it's a short time period. It's due to buses needing to get all over the city, so they rotate, some kids at school by 8:05, others by 9:05. Â Tonight I talked with my daughter about challenging herself. I talked about the gifted test again, explained the other options, and finally she suggested we ask the teacher if she can do more advanced homework and still get credit. That to me is ideal. Let's see what he says. My conference is on Wednesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiMi 4under3 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 No, it wouldn't be the worst thing to say.  The few weeks before I pulled out DD13 this year, I was telling her, "Care just enough to get all your assignments complete, but don't care so much that you stress yourself out and lose evening reading time or your drawing time."  I was basically telling her to do the minimum to get by so she could pursue her interests after school (but I had a feeling she was about to come home). And we were enriching with math too.   Good luck at your conference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Go to the conference with suggestions for the teacher on what you want. My older is "quirky" and his PS teachers (K-4th) were willing to work around as long as I come up with the possible solutions. I'm assuming your daughter is the 2nd grader and not the kindergartener. See if her teacher allows her to do her enrichment book/worksheet in school. My older's 1st grade teacher doesn't mind as long as he brings his own story book or worksheets and is quiet. His stationary supplies and everything else he need is at his desk so having his own "extras" was do-able. For example, I remember they have at least 30mins daily for math workbook but my older finish in about 10mins, so he look around and doodle. Someone in his class brought Mad Libs to do. A few kids did homework durng school time (usually those in competition teams for gym or swimming). Â Good luck on your parent teacher conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 Arcadia, yes. The 2nd grader. The kindergartener can always study language after she's done with math. Â My daughter won't want to do anything different in front of her friends, and I want her to demonstrate that she has the capacity to do the work. She needs to learn the expectations for the state tests, anyway. The school gets punished if she does not pass so that's really important. Â Thanks for the well wishes. The teacher's a great guy. I like the school a lot. It's always a question of how far to go when you know people are already working very hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I sympathise. When school is just daycare it is annoying but when they interfere with you teaching them at night it is too much. I am starting to think of school.as a flipped classroom. Learning at home, fun practice at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 I wouldn't say they're interfering--I should say that the rewards system the teacher has set up is really positive particularly for less typical children. Â If my daughter breezed through her homework it would be fine. But she dawdles. :P Â I think your attitude has been mine from the beginning, but now that we're busier it's harder to stay on learning at home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaughingCat Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Do the afterschooling first, followed by homework, followed by free time (or planned activity if necessary).  Then if she dawdles on homework it is her time lost not afterschooling time.   Be realistic on how much afterschooling she can really do though.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 We do minimal after schooling although some weeks we get more done than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 Thanks you guys for all your suggestions. It's great to have a menu to choose from and some reasonable minds at work. :)  Talked to the teacher today. My passionate little girl is doing great in school. I swear she saves up 100% of her drama for the homework window! Bleh. Anyway, THAT is another story. The main story here is, he was very happy with everything she's doing. 100% in pretty much everything. She could challenge herself more in math but doesn't choose to. Ah, the same old refrain.  He asked that we continue doing the first part of the math, but encouraged me to do other math puzzles and enrichment with her. So I think we will do a puzzle and then algebraic math for solving the puzzle. Tonight we did this:  http://www.math-salamanders.com/image-files/cool-math-for-kids-captains-square-puzzle-3.gif  So that was fun, easy, just introducing her to more puzzling thought. I think I will continue to use those worksheets. They are funny little puzzles. I want her really to be using her critical thinking skills. Also I like doing a puzzle with her. It's so much more fun to do that than to sit at a worksheet for some reason. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I am reluctant to put afterschooling first, because my kids get graded on their homework and I don't think it's fair for me to make it harder for them to meet their school requirements. The exception would be if they need serious remediation (which has been the case at times). I try to work in some afterschooling most days, but if it doesn't fit in, I let it go. I am trying to target roughly an hour total for homework and afterschooling (on Mon-Thurs), but sometimes the homework itself is more than that.  They are giving my kids more and more homework now. The regular teacher was giving them a couple of days to finish most of them, but the substitute is giving them several assignments every night, due the next morning. Today they had 2 pages of spelling, 1 page of math problems & review for tomorrow's chapter test, a science worksheet (these are not quick), plus the regular daily math facts and AR reading and studying memory work. This was way more than an hour of work, but I did add on about 20 minutes of math "afterschooling" to help prepare for tomorrow's test. All together they did about 2 hours of school work plus 2 hours of sports this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Wow. That is a crazy amount of homework for kids so young. My kids really only get homework because the principal thinks it would upset people if it were abolished completely. I would prefer none but it really isn't that bad. I don't think they get warning for tests and they don't get grades anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 I am reluctant to put afterschooling first, because my kids get graded on their homework and I don't think it's fair for me to make it harder for them to meet their school requirements. The exception would be if they need serious remediation (which has been the case at times). I try to work in some afterschooling most days, but if it doesn't fit in, I let it go. I am trying to target roughly an hour total for homework and afterschooling (on Mon-Thurs), but sometimes the homework itself is more than that.  They are giving my kids more and more homework now. The regular teacher was giving them a couple of days to finish most of them, but the substitute is giving them several assignments every night, due the next morning. Today they had 2 pages of spelling, 1 page of math problems & review for tomorrow's chapter test, a science worksheet (these are not quick), plus the regular daily math facts and AR reading and studying memory work. This was way more than an hour of work, but I did add on about 20 minutes of math "afterschooling" to help prepare for tomorrow's test. All together they did about 2 hours of school work plus 2 hours of sports this evening.  That is nuts. At our schools, that is more like a middle school amount. We get one math worksheet daily plus spelling/vocab words and 20 minutes of reading. It is supposed to be 10 minutes math, 10 minutes spelling, 20 reading but the child's choice after 1st grade.  How long do they have the sub for? I'd put up with it for a limited time but if this is like, maternity leave, I would talk to her. Third graders need to play. It's like working out. You need recovery time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Does she like creating her own puzzles? My older created logic puzzles for his brother and dad to solve. My boys also dabble in pascal triangle, Fibonacci spiral, golden ratio for fun at that age. Â If she likes geometry, you can search for lesson plans using Zoomtools and use toothpicks and marshmallow/Playdoh instead of buying the Zometools kits. Also fun is toothpicks puzzles, tangrams and pentominoes. Â Also it is possible to "crash course" math curriculum over summer (it reach 100degF here). Older did Singapore math 5&6 over one summer break and finish the first 5 chapters of AoPS geometry this summer break. So you could afterschool light and then pick up steam over school breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 That is nuts. At our schools, that is more like a middle school amount. We get one math worksheet daily plus spelling/vocab words and 20 minutes of reading. It is supposed to be 10 minutes math, 10 minutes spelling, 20 reading but the child's choice after 1st grade.  How long do they have the sub for? I'd put up with it for a limited time but if this is like, maternity leave, I would talk to her. Third graders need to play. It's like working out. You need recovery time.  It's maternity leave. I don't know how long, but probably until after winter break.  I agree that it's too much. Why doesn't the sub stick with what the regular teacher was doing, which was usually fine? Not getting it all done during the school day, I assume? How much worse is this going to get? I ask myself these questions, but so far I haven't considered complaining about it. I am just glad they finally started sending the textbook home with the science homework sheets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 Â Does she like creating her own puzzles? Â Â You know what, she might. Her little sister is MUCH more into that kind of thing. My five-year-old would create mazes at the age of two. She is funny like that. But they are both very creative. Â Also it is possible to "crash course" math curriculum over summer (it reach 100degF here)Â Â We live in the Pacific Northwest. Summer here is pure heaven. Sprinklers, salmon, swimming, blackberry picking, wearing a bathing suit all day, every day. Besides, I am working so they're still in camps during the day. But I like the idea. ;) Maybe I'll have them build a treehouse or something they can do outdoors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 It's maternity leave. I don't know how long, but probably until after winter break.  I agree that it's too much. Why doesn't the sub stick with what the regular teacher was doing, which was usually fine? Not getting it all done during the school day, I assume? How much worse is this going to get? I ask myself these questions, but so far I haven't considered complaining about it. I am just glad they finally started sending the textbook home with the science homework sheets.  I'd go to her and gently mention that the previous work was about X minutes, but now it takes Y minutes and you're wondering if that is a school policy or just her style, and if her style, would she mind adopting the teacher's homework policy, just for consistency's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Thanks you guys for all your suggestions. It's great to have a menu to choose from and some reasonable minds at work. :)  Talked to the teacher today. My passionate little girl is doing great in school. I swear she saves up 100% of her drama for the homework window! Bleh. Anyway, THAT is another story. The main story here is, he was very happy with everything she's doing. 100% in pretty much everything. She could challenge herself more in math but doesn't choose to. Ah, the same old refrain.  He asked that we continue doing the first part of the math, but encouraged me to do other math puzzles and enrichment with her. So I think we will do a puzzle and then algebraic math for solving the puzzle. Tonight we did this:  http://www.math-salamanders.com/image-files/cool-math-for-kids-captains-square-puzzle-3.gif  So that was fun, easy, just introducing her to more puzzling thought. I think I will continue to use those worksheets. They are funny little puzzles. I want her really to be using her critical thinking skills. Also I like doing a puzzle with her. It's so much more fun to do that than to sit at a worksheet for some reason. ;)  Okay. That is a REALLY cool puzzle. My son would love that! Where do you get those?  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 6, 2014 Author Share Posted November 6, 2014 Math salamanders--if you just take the first part of the URL that pops up in your address bar when you click the link, you get to a whole bunch of puzzles and worksheets! Some are pretty repetitive but I'm loving the lizard theme. :p  ETA: Tonight I had her make up a puzzle based on last night's salamander math puzzle. She did a really challenging one for me--it actually took a good five minutes to solve, and then I had her stepdad do it. She was over the moon. She LOVED being the center of all that attention, making up a problem, and getting recognition. That was a great suggestion and a really positive activity for our family. Thank you so much for that suggestion! This is something we will really look forward to as a family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaughingCat Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I am reluctant to put afterschooling first, because my kids get graded on their homework and I don't think it's fair for me to make it harder for them to meet their school requirements. The exception would be if they need serious remediation (which has been the case at times). I try to work in some afterschooling most days, but if it doesn't fit in, I let it go. I am trying to target roughly an hour total for homework and afterschooling (on Mon-Thurs), but sometimes the homework itself is more than that.  They are giving my kids more and more homework now. The regular teacher was giving them a couple of days to finish most of them, but the substitute is giving them several assignments every night, due the next morning. Today they had 2 pages of spelling, 1 page of math problems & review for tomorrow's chapter test, a science worksheet (these are not quick), plus the regular daily math facts and AR reading and studying memory work. This was way more than an hour of work, but I did add on about 20 minutes of math "afterschooling" to help prepare for tomorrow's test. All together they did about 2 hours of school work plus 2 hours of sports this evening. Just wanted to say that my comment on doing afterschooling first was based on the idea of dawdling (or perfectionism) - taking a half hour to finish what should reasonably be ten minutes of work.   Reasonable being defined on a kid by kid basis.  If the work reasonably takes a hour+ on a daily basis that is a different story - something to pursue with the teacher at that age IMO (although I did horrible at actually doing that myself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 In DD's last year of school, I was so fed-up with the whole school show that I did exactly that. Worked out OK, but that's because we left and started our own independent journey after that year. ... to tell my daughter that she can relax at school and doesn't need to think about stuff, so she can concentrate at after-school programs and enrichment where they are working at a higher level?  Okay, okay, I know, it would be.  But gosh darn I am tired of telling my daughter to work hard at school and she gets the same marks for grade level, above grade level, and stellar. Then she doesn't want to do math enrichment. So she's working her butt off for some ridiculously easy diagram, getting no credit and also learning nothing, but then at home she's tired and doesn't want to talk about math concepts.  I'm so irritated right now because she stopped capitalizing. "The teacher doesn't notice so I don't think I have to."  ARGH.  Sorry, just frustrated.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I've had a lot of conversations with my kids about not taking grades too seriously. Grades are feedback, and sometimes, they represent a teacher's opinion -- an opinion you're entitled not to share. Respect the teacher, take the feedback seriously, but don't let it dictate your journey if you want to focus on a different priority or explore a subject from a different perspective. (Eg. we had a lot of back and forth about the teacher's requirements for writing "interesting" sentences from a prompt. At first it sounded like the teacher was defining a "sentence" by whether it had enough adverbs and descriptive clauses, so we talked at home about the difference between a complete sentence, a cluttered sentence, a powerful sentence. DS conceded that there are many ways to form a good sentence, but also insisted that the sentence that earned him the best grade was not necessarily a *bad* sentence, so I came around. The discussion about powerful writing is ongoing though.)  In particular I try to talk my son down regularly from trying too hard at timed math fact recall tests. We talk a lot about how speed at math is not the same as skill at math, and we care more about skill than speed around here. (His retort: "In third grade I'm going to need to know my facts really well so I don't have to waste time thinking about them, right?" TouchĂƒÂ©, kiddo!)  Fortunately, DS only has one math worksheet most nights, plus ongoing reading requirements and a spelling list to study. He gets more than enough repetition at school for his spelling words so he doesn't study those, he reads far more than the minimum requirement of his own accord, and has decided to set himself a goal to do his math worksheets as soon as he walks in the door -- it never takes more than 3 minutes. So we end up with a decent amount of mental and emotional energy left over for exploring stuff that he might find interesting. I'm trying to get organized enough that more structured afterschooling happens, but I'm not really stressing over it.  I also tell my kindergartener that I just don't care terribly much about her classroom's color coded behavior chart. It doesn't matter to me if she's on green (meets expectations) or blue (exceeds them) -- or even if she drops to yellow. It's just a color, and sometimes you have to bend a rule or do something that looks wrong in order to do what's right.  The bottom line around here is that learning is the goal, and partnership with school teachers is one tool we're using to advance that goal, but the motivation to learn has to come from the learner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 Thank you for your perspective, Sunnyday!  Our kids are the same ages.  My daughter's class does not have grades (nor does the kindergartener have a color-coded behavior chart). Each piece of work is evaluated qualitatively, except for math, but even that, the kids go through their work so see what they've done well and what they haven't, and improvement, not perfection, is the goal. This is one reason I am definitely keeping them in school: I think the attitudinal and disciplinary activities of the schools here are superb. Really superb.  "Fortunately, DS only has one math worksheet most nights, plus ongoing reading requirements and a spelling list to study."  Hm. That's what my daughter has as well. The worksheet is a trial due to dawdling. We do go over the words the first time so she can practice spelling tests and feel comfortable spelling accuratel and in lists and under timed conditions--not that ANYONE other than me does this anymore, LOL! We talk about vocab and repeat any words that are hard to define. It shouldn't take long.  But after school, she just wants to play and I can't blame her, so I let them have their free time outdoors. Hence, she doesn't get her math done while "in the zone".  Plus we have language, music and sport to do--most families here have at least 2/3 of those, and they wouldn't even call it afterschooling, but just parenting.   "In third grade I'm going to need to know my facts really well so I don't have to waste time thinking about them, right?" TouchĂƒÂ©, kiddo!)  Are you just saying that to make us jealous, or are you unaware of how rare a gem you have there? What a wondeful boy. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 He's a funny kid. :) So serious and disciplined, which is exactly why I don't think it's far-fetched at all to start coaching a second grader that some things are worth investing mental energy in and some...aren't. Even school things. In first grade we used to go over his spelling lists and pick out any interesting rules he could generalize, like the floss rule or the rules governing /k/ at the end of a word. But this year I hardly even see the list. At school they write and re-write the words once or twice a day and that seems to be enough, he insists he doesn't need more practice. (He bombed one test which mortified him, but apparently he is more careful on tests now.) Admittedly the level in his school is probably well below what your daughter is seeing. His words are things like "could" and "because", not new vocabulary. Plus we have language, music and sport to do--most families here have at least 2/3 of those, and they wouldn't even call it afterschooling, but just parenting.  Heh, that's why we are glad not to live in the big city. ;) Actually most people here do All The Sports, and some admirable families also have music and/or ballet and/or horseback riding. We do karate year-round and 2-3 sports -- we're between seasons now. I have a goal to get DD and maybe DS into piano by the end of winter break, but I'm not presently concerned about foreign language. We'll probably do Latin and then add in Japanese and/or Spanish over the next few years.  Actually it's karate that has caused him to set positive goals like getting his homework done promptly, and to follow through on those goals. Our afternoons are usually either "Get off the bus, do homework and have a snack, get in the car for karate," or "Play with the other kids getting off the bus until they have to go home, then come in and do homework and have a snack before watching 20 minutes of videos." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 "is words are things like "could" and "because", not new vocabulary." Â We have three levels: one is words that they really should know because they are so common, but which are not easily phonetic--these are not called sight words, which is nice. The second are spelling words. The last level are vocab. My daughter spells the vocab for me. They range from second to fifth grade spelling level because they are meant to be understood, not necessarily spelled. Â Her teacher said she didn't spend much time examining the words and their meanings. She knows all the words but I'd like her to look more at definitions so she was more familiar with how to define a word. Â I was once at a party at which two Germans and one Frenchman and I all interrogated and mocked a Harvard grad for not being able to define a word without beginning his sentence with, "It's like when..." Â True, we all had crappy little degrees from our regional universities with their modest specializations but nothing cripples you like hubris! I want my kid to be able to define a word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I was once at a party at which two Germans and one Frenchman and I all interrogated and mocked a Harvard grad for not being able to define a word without beginning his sentence with, "It's like when..."Â True, we all had crappy little degrees from our regional universities with their modest specializations but nothing cripples you like hubris! I want my kid to be able to define a word. Â I'm curious: how often does that happen in real life? I certainly want my kids to have an extensive vocabulary, both active and passive - but defining words? I don't recall that I ever was in a situation to do that, (other than technical terms in class, or translating for non-English speakers. Â (FWIW, we never did "vocab" in our homeschool - DD still managed to develop an active vocabulary that impresses even her English instructors. I come from a country where "vocab programs" and memorizing words do not exist, only in foreign language studies.) Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 Regentrude, I think being able to articulate the meaning of what you are saying is essential to clear thought. It's essential to applying logic to text in particular.  I think that learning the parts of speech is the first step. Nouns are things (persons, places, objects), adjectives, and so on.  Then you learn how each type of thing is defined: Nouns are either "a person who" or "a substance which" or similar. Adjectives or adverbs: The property of... Pronouns: A pronoun which refers to... Particles: A particle which [explain what it does to the word]. Titles, etc.  Believe it or not I have found this helpful in life when writing!  Here are my off-the-cuff definitions:  Carpentry: The profession which consists of designing and building with wood. Carpenter: A person who is trained in or practices the profession of carpentry. Wood: A substance that consists of the trunk of a tree or other tree-like object. Woody: The property of being like wood, in particular, dry, flavorless, fibrous.  Now I'm going to look them up:  carpentry: the skill or work of making or fixing wooden objects or wooden parts of buildings   carpenter: a person whose job is to make or fix wooden objects or wooden parts of buildings (<--this is much better than my nearly circular definition, ooops!) wood: the hard substance that makes up the stems and branches of trees and shrubs   woody (mine was the third definition, for shame!)  having stems and branches that are made of wood : made of wood : similar to wood : having many trees 1 : abounding or overgrown with woods 2 a : of or containing wood or wood fibers : ligneous <woody tissues>  b : having woody parts : rich in xylem and associated structures <woody plants> 3 : characteristic of or suggestive of wood <wine with a woody flavor>    Balderdash is a really funny way to learn to define words. Play it with a seven-year-old. You'll laugh your way to a six-pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Â Regentrude, I think being able to articulate the meaning of what you are saying is essential to clear thought. It's essential to applying logic to text in particular. I think that learning the parts of speech is the first step. Nouns are things (persons, places, objects), adjectives, and so on. Â Then you learn how each type of thing is defined: Nouns are either "a person who" or "a substance which" or similar. Adjectives or adverbs: The property of... Pronouns: A pronoun which refers to... Particles: A particle which [explain what it does to the word]. Titles, etc. Â Believe it or not I have found this helpful in life when writing! Â I grew up in country where the idea of a dictionary that defines every word in that same language through definitions like the ones you mentioned does not exist. We have a book that defines difficult words originating in foreign languages, but in a very abbreviated manner, so it would never use phrases like "a particle which" or "a pronoun which refers to". The English dictionary as it is common in the English speaking world was a very strange concept to me. Thus, I am inclined to conclude that learning formal vocabulary definitions can not be a prerequisite for good writing or precise language use, since this does not exist in all cultures, but they still bring forth good writers and precise speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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