Do virtual labs count as lab credit for science?

[Based on Faith Academy]

That is pretty much my question. There are a few labs we will be able to do for Chemistry but there are

others that we are going to watch done online. Will these still count as labs even though he is not doing them

himself?

 

Thanks for the insight!

[Guest]

nm. :)

[Angie in VA]

Depends on who's doing the counting. 

 

Froguts.com says that for high school credit, 18 states must accept virtual labs. Scroll down a bit and look on the left under "Did You Know?" to see all the states. New York is on their list, but I'd double check the state requirements. I'm just that way, lol.

 

If you're talking about colleges, each has its own set of requirements. Look here, for example.

[Orthodox6]

We'll just have to take the blows where they fall.  We are doing biology this year (Science Shepherd minus their evolution perspective).  I just shelled out for what had better be a good microscope [ ! ] with a broad selection of slides.  Dissections, however, will be "virtual" (via FrogGuts). 

 

Chemistry will be much easier, as we have done that before with the older boys.  (They obtained their biology out-of-house, including labs.)

 

Whereas I understand the need for "hands-on", I don't believe that hands-on dissections are absolutely necessary for high school.  My high school dismantling of a cat and of a cow's eye were of scant use for college biology. 

[regentrude]

Irrespective of what colleges and states "count", my main question would be:

what kind of a "lab" learning experience does a student have from those "virtual" labs?

The answer will depend on the implementation of the virtual lab.

 

What makes them labs as opposed to demonstrations?

What active component besides watching something on a screen is required of the student?

If the student does not actually perform an experimental action, will he be required to record and analyze data and write up his conclusions?

 

I might let myself be convinced to count the virtual lab if the student records and analyzes data and produces a lab report.

I would most definitely not count a "lab" that is a mere demonstration and requires no effort other than watching it.

[Lori D.]

Is this to meet high school graduation requirements, or college admission requirements? As Angie in VA pointed out in her post, virtual labs do meet some state high school science lab requirements.

 

In contrast, many colleges, when they say "lab science", are expecting physical manipulation of equipment -- measuring, recording, and use of apparatus -- for carrying out experiments that either demonstrate scientific principles or prove/disprove a student hypothesis. BTW: labs are pretty easy to accomplish if you buy a few kits. Chemistry experiments are among the easiest labs to accomplish at home, IMO.

 

Not that it means anything (lol), but I lean with Regentrude, that a virtual lab is a demonstration, rather than a hands-on lab.

[Orthodox6]

Regentrude, my hope and intention have been for dd to watch the demonstration, taking sufficient notes that she can analyze the data and fill out a proper lab report. The non-dissection labs from the course, she will carry out in normal fashion. . . . Am I just dreaming that this can work?

[Orthodox6]

My working analogy is the lab partner that delegates the cutting to his lab partner but is watching carefully and completing his own lab report for the high school teacher.

[Based on Faith Academy]

 

I might let myself be convinced to count the virtual lab if the student records and analyzes data and produces a lab report.

I would most definitely not count a "lab" that is a mere demonstration and requires no effort other than watching it.

 

Agree 100%

 

[lewelma]

Dissections are not required for a Biology course's lab component.  And I am also very unclear as to how you would fill out a lab report on a dissection and have it be much more than busy work. 

 

So skip the dissections and substitute with something that interests your student from this website: http://www.biologycorner.com/lesson-plans/ecology/

 

Ruth in NZ

[Deee]

I'm a former molecular biologist (ie, I loathed the animal handling portion of biology so much, I moved to tiny, tiny samples using DNA and RNA). Dissections teach a few things: how to draw, name and label what you see (this is not the same as copying a book), esp when your specimen looks a bit different to the worksheet or lab manual; how to manipulate and cut a specimen and lay it out using instruments; use of a dissection microscope; respectful handling of a specimen that once was alive, and how to avoid contamination and throwing up. This can all be done (with the exception of the microscope work) at home, using things from the butcher (eye, heart, kidney). You don't have to do a rat or frog if you have a philosophical objection (we were allowed to opt out at uni). For the record, the worst thing I dissected was a cockroach. I hate cockroaches - looking at it under magnification was almost too much.

D

[Rebel Yell]

That is pretty much my question. There are a few labs we will be able to do for Chemistry but there are

others that we are going to watch done online. Will these still count as labs even though he is not doing them

himself?

 

Thanks for the insight!

 

It depends on your state, the laws, and IMO most importantly- future/college plans and admissions requirements.

 

In PA, to give a high school diploma as a homeschooler, it only says that "3 years of science" must be completed.  PA law does not specify which sciences must be done in high school, or that any of them have to be lab sciences.

 

Most homeschoolers in PA do far more and include labs. Most of the people I know based their student's science on what they planned to do next and what that college or whatever required for admission.

 

 

http://phea.net/pahomeeducationlaw/

(d) The following minimum courses in grades nine through twelve are established as a requirement for graduation in a home education program:

(1) Four years of English.

(2) Three years of mathematics.

(3) Three years of science.

(4) Three years of social studies.

(5) Two years of arts and the humanities.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I think it might also matter what your student wants to do with their future. If they want to go into British Literature, I cannot see their high school biology coming into play too much other than completing it. If they want to go STEM, the scrutiny level will be much higher and the disservice of not doing formal labs will have a larger impact.

 

If your student is still undecided, then you might be withholding a rather large experience from them. Dissections can be done on something as simple as a fish. It does not need to be a fetal pig or a sheep's eye or anything crazy. You do not even really need them at all for biology. Opting out of dissections has been a standing option for years in biology classes. It does not make or break the class.

[FaithManor]

I can honestly say that I would not want anyone going into any field related to medicine and health who cannot handle dissections. Also many kids who skip dissections also end up skipping the process of preparing slides using tissue samples and "squishy" parts. Not a good idea for anyone in health sciences.

 

It is a useful tool for determining if a health related field could be a good fit for a student. Case - dd's EMT class had more than half of the students drop out once ride alongs began because the first sights of badly infected wounds, brain matter, dislocations, etc. made them woozy and sick. A couple of students even passed out which then leaves the teaching medics and EMT's with another patient. Dd asked these students later on about their high school biology experiences. None had ever dissected. None had ever seen anything that involved body fluids, anatomical parts, etc. I am convinced that if they had been assigned to dissect a fetal pig or a sheep's brain, they would never have signed up for EMT training. It was an expensive lesson given that books cost $450.00 and tuition was $1000.00 to say nothing of student uniforms once clinicals began and the cost of commuting to and from the program as well as time wasted.

 

Dd dissected every speciman we could lat hands on! LOL, she's a medic and is finishing her chemistry degree. The next oldest has dissected one starfish, one squid, and one worm and barely, just barely made it through, not gling into anything remotely related to medicine, health, or the animal kingdom. Middle boy is exactly like his sister and cannot get enough of it. He will be double majoring in biology and ecology, minoring in chemistry and hopes to work in research on invasive aquatic life in the Great Lakes. He is also going to train for ski patrol (first responder/EMT specializing in search and rescue in snowy regions and winter weather conditions). So it is definitely good to know he has a personality amenable to handling the gross factor of injuries.

 

Last boy just likes to see how things work. He will take anything a part to figure out its inner workings. He is severely clinical and should never work in the medical profession with patients!

 

Besides the fact that dissections themselves offer the opportunity totake a glimpse into the lab work of pathologists and researchers, learning to handle specimans, draw and take extensive anatomical notes, etc., practically it can be a real window that lets you glimpse an area of your child's psyche and choose the best course of future scientific study. AP bio has a lot of anatomy and physiology, and college A & P is not for the faint of heart. Good to know ahead of time if one is definitely not cut out for it.

[Orthodox6]

Thank you for an excellent post, FaithManor. It reminded me of my son's experience not very long ago. He is a fireman for a large city adjacent to a major city. When he was taking his EMT coursework, he was the student chosen as best equipped (by knowledge attained and by personal temperament demonstrated) to dissect a cadaver. This was required coursework which I would not have guessed to be part of EMT training.

[EKS]

I can't tell if the OP's post is about dissections specifically or virtual labs more generally.

 

Dissections are absolutely not necessary for high school biology.  In fact, I have a degree in biochemistry, and the only time I ever cut into an animal for anything in high school or college was in an upper division immunology lab.  My son's biology class in high school also did not have dissections.

 

Regarding virtual labs more generally--I think that some are ok.  An example of a virtual lab that is useful would be a computer simulation of population changes due to various selective pressures.  However, I have tried virtual labs that are supposed to be imitating actual bench work, and they are totally worthless, IMO.  I would not give laboratory credit for such experiences.

 

 

[Based on Faith Academy]

I was really talking about Chemistry as that is what he is taking this year. I am basically wondering

because there are certain labs that I will not have the equipment that we would need in order

to do them. In that instance, I would like to have him watch them being done online then as

any lab would require, I would have him analyze the results.

 

We did not do any labs for Biology last year but I was interested in finding out about the lab

requirements. Dissecting was definitely not my most favorite part of science lab while I was in school.

 

My son is looking to going into engineering. I saw that a couple people wondered if he was looking

into any occupation that would require dissecting and the answer is a definite, no.

 

I hope that clarifies things a little better. Sorry for kind of leaving it wide open and taking so long to get

back online to read all your answers. I do appreciate the help.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Depends on who's doing the counting. 

 

Froguts.com says that for high school credit, 18 states must accept virtual labs. Scroll down a bit and look on the left under "Did You Know?" to see all the states. New York is on their list, but I'd double check the state requirements. I'm just that way, lol.

 

If you're talking about colleges, each has its own set of requirements. Look here, for example.

 

I don't think this is saying that the schools have to grant permission or credit for virtual labs.  I think it is saying that these states are required allow virtual dissections rather than physical dissections.  It is more an animal rights issue or student comfort level issue than an approval of virtual labs in all topics.

[EndOfOrdinary]

If your son is considering Engineering, I would do my darnedest to do actual labs.  We just bought a high school chemistry set for Chemistry.  It comes with lots of chemicals and all the equipment to be able to do the full labs.  Free lab report templates can be found online.  Engineering is a STEM career which means heavy science and definitely practical applications like labs.

[Angie in VA]

I don't think this is saying that the schools have to grant permission or credit for virtual labs.  I think it is saying that these states are required allow virtual dissections rather than physical dissections.  It is more an animal rights issue or student comfort level issue than an approval of virtual labs in all topics.

 

I agree w/ what you've said. I just thought that if public school can offer a virtual lab, a homeschool can too, but colleges may want actual labs and can require them.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I agree w/ what you've said. I just thought that if public school can offer a virtual lab, a homeschool can too, but colleges may want actual labs and can require them.

 

I don't think the idea behind what Froguts.com is that it is approved for schools to do virtual labs--they are saying it is ok in some states to do virtual dissections.  I don't think they are implying nor would I infer or extend their argument to say that all or any virtual labs would be approved.  This is simply the single issue of animal dissection.

 

For the purposes of college admission I would take a look at what those schools my student was interested in had to say or use a random sample of the type they are interested in. Of course some states may actually have regs about what homeschoolers need to do for high school science credit...

[OneStepAtATime]

OP, have you looked at the Landry Academy 2 day science intensives where they do a year's worth (according to the website) of actual labs, with write ups, etc. in just 2 days?  They have them all over the country and provide all the equipment and instruction.  They cover many different science topics including Chemistry I believe.

[Angie in VA]

I don't think the idea behind what Froguts.com is that it is approved for schools to do virtual labs--they are saying it is ok in some states to do virtual dissections.  I don't think they are implying nor would I infer or extend their argument to say that all or any virtual labs would be approved.  This is simply the single issue of animal dissection.

 

Ah, I get it now. 

 

For the purposes of college admission I would take a look at what those schools my student was interested in had to say or use a random sample of the type they are interested in. Of course some states may actually have regs about what homeschoolers need to do for high school science credit...

 

I am pretty sure we're both saying the same thing about colleges.

 

[Mom22ns]

I was really talking about Chemistry as that is what he is taking this year. I am basically wondering

because there are certain labs that I will not have the equipment that we would need in order

to do them. In that instance, I would like to have him watch them being done online then as

any lab would require, I would have him analyze the results.

 

We did not do any labs for Biology last year but I was interested in finding out about the lab

requirements. Dissecting was definitely not my most favorite part of science lab while I was in school.

 

My son is looking to going into engineering. I saw that a couple people wondered if he was looking

into any occupation that would require dissecting and the answer is a definite, no.

 

I hope that clarifies things a little better. Sorry for kind of leaving it wide open and taking so long to get

back online to read all your answers. I do appreciate the help.

 

So, the question isn't about dissections and Biology which is where the thread wandered away to, but rather about Chemistry labs for a future engineering major. That is quite a different question.

 

I would say the answer is that an engineering major needs to have done real lab work, as Regentrude described. He is a STEM major, and he will almost certainly be taking chemistry in college, although how much depends entirely on what type of engineering he is interested in. Clearly, having done real chemistry labs will be beneficial to him. I would consider a lab kit that contains all you need to do several chemistry labs.

 

Doing some virtual labs isn't a problem, either for high school requirements or college entrance as long as you have also done a reasonable number of hands on labs. Personally, we supplement every science with virtual labs. We have extensive lab equipment and I love doing labs with the kids. However, some labs are too dangerous or expensive to be performed at home. We do those virtually, watching, recording data, analyzing the data and doing a lab report at the end or watch demonstrations on youtube. I don't consider watching demonstrations part of lab, but rather part of learning.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Does anyone remember the thread a while back about U of Arizona (?) not accepting homeschool labs? 

 

If you remember that thread would there be any value in the OP hunting it up for the info given about who does and doesn't accept homeschool/virtual labs?

[Dicentra]

If anyone is looking for virtual labs that are a little more realistic, I'd suggest taking a look at www.latenitelabs.com.  (I know - ridiculous name.)  We just started using this site for our distance students at the college where I'm teaching.  The pre-health chem program is supposed to include labs.  In past, they've had the students purchase a lab kit from LabPaq and do the labs at home.  I actually argued against this practice.  I felt that since the students had no one with them to help them with proper lab techniques, then any value that might be inherent in a hands-on lab experience would be negated by repeated incorrect use of the equipment.  If no one is there with the students to tell them if they are using a graduated cylinder correctly, I didn't see the point in having them repeat the incorrect usage all year long, for example.  The labs at the Late Nite Labs website are set up so that the student must "do" the lab, not just watch it being done.  The labs are also set up so that the student can do the wrong thing and end up with incorrect results.  I particularly liked this aspect.  So many of the virtual labs programs are written so that the student really can't do the labs incorrectly.  If they just keep clicking on things, eventually the program rewards them with the correct results.  These labs don't work like that - the student must follow directions accurately and take detailed lab notes.  Once they've completed the lab portion, they have to complete an assignment portion.  Part of the assignment is based on interpreting and analyzing the lab results and part is general questions related to the topic of the lab.  The instructor can either assign a short answer assignment or a multiple choice assignment.  From what I can tell, I don't get to choose the questions on the assignments but the questions I've seen so far have been good ones.  There are calculation questions as well as content questions.  In the chem labs, a student can even burn things to a crisp or blow things up if they aren't paying attention to what is going on.  I know.  I played with it. :)

 

I asked my contact at the company about homeschoolers using the website and they were very agreeable.  Instructor accounts are free and student accounts (for high school students) are $34.95 USD per student per calendar year.  I would assume that's also per subject - they offer labs for chemistry, microbiology, biology, and physics.  Here's a link to the lab library:

http://latenitelabs.com/library

 

If a student is going into a STEM field, then obviously the best option is a hands-on lab experience with a qualified instructor or with someone who can help guide the student through all the lab techniques to make sure things are being learned correctly.  This website seems to be a pretty good alternative, as virtual labs go.  (No - I'm not getting any kickbacks from the site. :D  I was just pleasantly surprised at how the site presented the virtual lab experience. :) )

[Based on Faith Academy]

OP, have you looked at the Landry Academy 2 day science intensives where they do a year's worth (according to the website) of actual labs, with write ups, etc. in just 2 days?  They have them all over the country and provide all the equipment and instruction.  They cover many different science topics including Chemistry I believe.

 

No, I have not but I will. Thank you!