Please HELP! Major "gap"?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, I'm hoping I can explain this well enough that someone can tell me what to use to help my kids, especially my 8yo dd. Basically, she is incapable of answering questions, paring down the information or a story down to the basics, state a complete sentence to answer a basic knowledge question, etc. It doesn't matter the topic.  A summary of a story would be just as wordy as the original piece. Even if she picks out an answer to a simple question, she can't put it in a complete sentence. If you ask the question differently, you'll likely get a completely different answer. Multiple choice often trips her up some, but she does better with one word or phrase answers than sentences.  She would *never* get a "which is not true?" question correct. 

 

Additionally, there seems to be a gap in reasoning skills.  She asks insane questions and cannot come up with basic answers.  "Why do we hang up our dresses?" would not yield answers like "so they don't get wrinkled" or "so they look nice when we wear them" or even "so they don't get dirty lying on the floor."  SHe'd more likely say something like, "that is where they go."  Well, except I didn't say anything about a *where* anyway AND she still couldn't answer WHY if I asked again as a follow up.  

 

This is a bright kid.  She learned to read before Kindy.  She finished kindy on a 3rd grade level (as per public school).  She LOVES to read.  She loves to learn. She loves to write.  She spells AMAZINGLY well.  She simply cannot seem to do any basic reasoning, reading comprehension, summing up, etc. Her vocabulary is a lower level than her reading ability.  She gets a LOT of use out of her ipad dictionary. Her math skills are slow and low, but steady.

 

I just end up giving her the answer too often.  And then how is she learning if that is the case?  

I don't know if I expressed myself well enough to get the help I'm hoping for. 
 

 

 

[Farrar]

Well, I know you have older kids too, but in my experience, a lot of 8 yos struggle with this stuff.  My boys both did - maybe not to the extent that you're saying - but I have seen something shift in them over the last year or so and now that they're a couple months shy of 10, they're so, so much better at this stuff than before and I think a huge part of that is just developmental.  Especially with the summary stuff, I think most kids struggle with that.

 

I think in a way you've answered your own question about the number one thing you need to do to change this.  You answer your own questions too much.  This is totally my failing with my kids too a lot of the time, but I would say, be more patient, take the risk of letting some questions in discussion just go unanswered more often instead of supplying the answer.  And in school, just aim more for leading her to the answer instead of giving it.

 

Do you use WWE?  That could help with the summary issue.  Or you could try more CM style narration.  I think it's okay if narrations are wordy (I'm more of the CM retelling sort) because it's practicing memory and vocabulary and eventually they begin to get it.

 

Have you tried any of the fun logic things out there?  Lollipop Logic?  Tin Man Press?  Mind Benders?  What about logic games?

[Tracy]

I would recommend learning a bit about Socratic discussions.  This is where you guide your child to come to her own conclusions.  In your example of asking her why we put clothes on hangers, saying "that is where they go" is a perfectly appropriate response.  She has learned to obey you.  You need to praise her for that.  But then move on to saying that there are several reasons for putting them on hangers, asking "What would happen to them if we didn't hang them? Where would they be if they weren't hung up? If you wanted your favorite shirt, would you know where to find it?  Does your room look nicer if your clothes are on the floor or hung up?"  She may not be able to come up with the fact that they would be wrinkled, because she may not notice or even care at all whether they get wrinkled.  But with enough leading, she should be able to come up with something, such as we wouldn't know where they were, or they would get dirty, or the room would get messy.  The trick is to keep asking slightly more leading questions until she comes up with the answer herself.  

 

You have to be careful with expecting her to come up with the answer that is in your head.  I have a hard time understanding why your answers to the question of why we hang clothes were better than hers.  Hers was just different and based on her own experience and unique values.  What you want to do is to acknowledge her answer as a good one but stretch her to see the same question through another's eyes.  You are right that in order to do this, you have to resist the temptation to give her the answers.  

 

It does help to use certain curricula.  I agree that WWE is wonderful for helping the student to give answers in full sentences.  For math, I use CSMP, which has a wonderful script for posing Socratic questions.  For science, BFSU has a strong Socratic philosophy.  For spelling, SWR has a Socratic leaning.  TOG utilizes a Socratic philosophy for the older children.  I am sure that there are many more good programs out there, but those are the ones that have worked for us.  

[Hunter]

Some people are gifted at being a parrot, but struggle at application. Just because a person is a gifted parrot, doesn't mean they are gifted or even average in other areas. And that's okay!

 

One of my children is 2E and I had to learn to expect uneven development. I did him some harm, trying to get his weak areas caught up to his strong areas. I felt so much pressure to do that.

[idnib]

I was also going to suggest WWE. It doesn't address all of your concern, but a fair number of them.

[MerryAtHope]

Sounds very normal to me! And I actually think "that is where they go" is an answer to "why" for this age child. Sure, she's not directly explaining her logic--but I think that's fairly typical for an 8 yo. 

 

Paring down info (summarizing) is actually a complex skill. It's much easier to write or say a lot--and more difficult to write or say something that packs a lot of meaning or info into a small space. Neither of my kids were good at summarizing at 8. They either retold everything or said too little. 

 

I found it helped to work on smaller things first--retell a paragraph or something short. Or, read aloud to her, then point to a picture and have her tell you about that picture. Allow her skills to develop over time.

 

Totally agree with trying to lead her to the answer and not always answering your own questions--pick and choose when it's important versus when it's okay not to. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Do you still read to her?

Because that is how I taught my daughter to summarize things.

I would read her a complicated book, little by little, and each time I picked it up I would summarize what had happened so far, and remind her of where we left off (the very last thing that happened) before starting to read.  After doing this for a quite a while I started to ask her to summarize occasionally, and then increasingly often.  She learned it from listening to me do it, every day, for a long time.

 

Regarding the reasoning issue, I think that it works the same way for kids.  You tell them why you believe certain things to be true, and they gradually learn how to reason themselves.

[aaplank]

You might look into Lindamood Bell, specifically Visualizing and Verbalizing. Also doing a Key word outline is beneficial. Start small, using a simple 3-5 sentence paragraph. Teach her how to pick out no more than 3 key words from each sentence and write them down line by line. Have her go back and reread each sentence while looking at the key words. With enough practice she'll paraphrase more and more. Over time, build the complexity and length of the paragraph.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Thanks y'all.  I intended to use WWE to help.  And we do get a lot of practice.  She doesn't accept criticism well from me which is why I'm probably either not helping enough (leaving it as "that doesn't answer the question") or just giving her the answer (which doesn't help her figure it out).  

 

Here may be a better example:

 

Q) Where in W. Africa do the missionaries live?

A) West Africa

 

So *I* want her to answer, "The missionaries, Chris and Lena, live in Guinea, West Africa."  Be specific and use a complete sentence.  It would be fine to say what kind of home they lived in or leave out their names, but the question is where they live in West Africa so the answer needs something more specific than West Africa.

 

SO many times, I ask "but where?" or "but why?" over and over trying to get her to narrow things down. And many times we both just end up frustrated.  

 

It seems like *I* need to get better asking more helpful questions.  And it sounds like maybe she isn't all that far off for her age :)

[Tracy]

Thanks y'all.  I intended to use WWE to help.  And we do get a lot of practice.  She doesn't accept criticism well from me which is why I'm probably either not helping enough (leaving it as "that doesn't answer the question") or just giving her the answer (which doesn't help her figure it out).  

 

Here may be a better example:

 

Q) Where in W. Africa do the missionaries live?

A) West Africa

 

So *I* want her to answer, "The missionaries, Chris and Lena, live in Guinea, West Africa."  Be specific and use a complete sentence.  It would be fine to say what kind of home they lived in or leave out their names, but the question is where they live in West Africa so the answer needs something more specific than West Africa.

 

SO many times, I ask "but where?" or "but why?" over and over trying to get her to narrow things down. And many times we both just end up frustrated.  

 

It seems like *I* need to get better asking more helpful questions.  And it sounds like maybe she isn't all that far off for her age :)

 

Well, I think that if you are in the habit of saying, "But where?" or, "But why?" you are putting her on the defensive.  You are making the point that she is wrong right off the bat.  I know it is really hard to be positive when she is so far from the answer you are looking for.  But if you want to avoid butting heads, you have to start from a place of encouragement.  "That is right!  They are in West Africa. Very good!  Now, can you remember what country in West Africa that they live in?  That's okay if you don't remember.  Let's see if we can figure that out."  All said with lots of smiles.  "Can you find the part in the passage where it tells us that?  That's okay.  I am here to help you.  I am going to read the first paragraph again.  Will you raise your hand when you hear it?"  

 

You see, this is more about the teacher-student relationship than it is about her skills or willingness to try to answer the question.  She needs to know that she is not going to be a big disappointment to you every time she attempts to answer your question.  You need to reward any and every attempt, even if it is not what you are looking for.  

 

I have been watching my ds6's baseball coaches for 2 seasons now, and these guys get kids.  Even when they do horribly, these great men find something to praise.  They miss the ball, and they say, "Good, hard swing!"  They drop the ball, and the coach yells, "Way to stop that ball!"  And as a result, my ds loves, loves, loves baseball.  He lives for that praise from grown-up men.  As teachers, we need to create that same feeling in our home, so that our children will know that we will be pleased with their very best efforts, even when they fail.  

[Jennifer-72]

Does she ask lots of questions? Our speech path told me when we were working on questioning skills with ds that you can't expect kids to answer questions if they don't know how to ask them. You may want to look on linguisystems or super duper publications and see if any of the materials they have on questioning might help, or at least give you some ideas on how to break it down for her a bit more.

[Sahamamama]

IME, the "why" or "why not" questions are the most difficult for some kids to answer. They may be able to answer "what," "where," "when," or even "how" or "how much/often" better than the "why" question.

 

"Where do the dresses go?" is more concrete -- a dress, a hanger, a closet. The "why" of hanging up the dress...? That may take time for your child to learn how to answer.

 

One thing I had/have to do with one of my 7.5 yo twins (during WWE narrations) is "feed her the words." She's very bright, she just sometimes gets extremely frustrated with trying to build the complete sentence with (1) part of the question, and (2) the answer she does indeed know. When she answers in a fragment, I simply restate her answer as a complete sentence, including her answer, and coach her along as she repeats it. I figure, I'm there to help. ;)

 

This seems to have helped to her understand how to rephrase part of the question to be the beginning of the complete sentence + her answer. HTH.

[idnib]

Try "yes, and..." instead of "but". (Works well for kids in general, I've found.)

 

"West Africa!"

 

"Yes, and where in West Africa? Let's drill down."

[Momling]

First of all, I don't think your 8 yr old has a "major gap". It will come in time. But there was an intriguing little exercise book that really helped my younger daughter to understand things under the surface. "Reading and Thinking" by Arthur Evans. It's from the 70's and has very short reading passages that get incrementally harder and ask simple inference type questions that I was fascinated to find my daughter couldn't answer. She did eventually get the hang of it, though!

[MerryAtHope]

Thanks y'all.  I intended to use WWE to help.  And we do get a lot of practice.  She doesn't accept criticism well from me which is why I'm probably either not helping enough (leaving it as "that doesn't answer the question") or just giving her the answer (which doesn't help her figure it out).  

 

Here may be a better example:

 

Q) Where in W. Africa do the missionaries live?

A) West Africa

 

So *I* want her to answer, "The missionaries, Chris and Lena, live in Guinea, West Africa."  Be specific and use a complete sentence.  It would be fine to say what kind of home they lived in or leave out their names, but the question is where they live in West Africa so the answer needs something more specific than West Africa.

 

SO many times, I ask "but where?" or "but why?" over and over trying to get her to narrow things down. And many times we both just end up frustrated.  

 

It seems like *I* need to get better asking more helpful questions.  And it sounds like maybe she isn't all that far off for her age :)

 

That would have totally frustrated my kids at that age. They were still working to understand complete sentences--and names were very hard for them to remember, especially strange-sounding ones of foreign places. I'd separate out these skills. First, make sure she's rock solid on what a complete sentence is. If not, work on that skill separately at a different time (such as for your LA time). When she is, then you can work on teaching her to give answers in that way. At that time, if she gives an answer such as "West Africa" to a question, then say, "Good! Now, how would you say that in a complete sentence?" "Chris and Lena live in West Africa." "Excellent!" She'll learn how to use appositives and more specific details later on. It may be a few years of work before you get to such a detailed answer. If you can scaffold more to get to what you want--build up her skills step by step and encourage her all along the way, you'll make more progress and frustrate both of you less. Give examples in these situations when she doesn't get what you are asking. I take the pressure off and say something like, "I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Maybe if I give an example it would help..." or, "You know, I don't think we've spent much time learning how to do this. Let me give an example..." 

 

If what you really want for now is the more specific answer (Guinea), I'd re-read the paragraph as someone said above. Or I'd get a map out. "That's right, they live in West Africa. Let's see if we can find that on the map. Do you know where Africa is?" See if she can find Africa. "Excellent! Do you know which side is West Africa?" Show that, and show how there are a lot of countries. "Some of these names are hard to pronounce! The one they are from is 'Guinea.'" (have her repeat and point to it--or if you have a wipe-off map, even let her circle it with a vis-a-vis marker. or tape a picture of the missionaries to it if these are missionaries you/your church supports. or write their names if you like.) So, in this way you are helping her get to that more specific information, letting her do something hands-on (which might help with her attention), and giving a little more meaning to the name by letting her associate it with a map. We often go over to our map to look things like this up. 

 

HTH some! She'll get there!

[Pamela H in Texas]

Thanks y'all.  Looks like I have some stuff to work on!  I noticed a 7yo commending peers recently and was so impressed with her. I figured her parents probably were excellent models when it comes to commending other people and that I probably needed to develop that skill a bit better if I want to hear it from my own children.  

 

And I think we may need to do a lot more in terms of finding ways to make it more concrete and visualizing.  There were two examples in the WatchTower study she was doing yesterday. I was completely stumped how she was getting her answers as well as how to get her to a plausible answer.  But reading through the above, I am now thinking we could act out the one paragraph/scripture.  Then I could try the question again, commend her effort, and then ask the question differently (in this case, "what is this person telling that person?" maybe including that he could have been saying to any one of us which would have definitely changed her answer.  In fact, we could act it out that way.)

 

I'm really going to work on these things.

 

 

 

[redsquirrel]

Honestly, I think she is young to be making those leaps. 8 year olds aren't really supposed to be making those connections yet. They are beginning to, yes. And some totally do. But it is not unusual for 8 year olds to not be able to answer 'why' questions. That is part of why 8 year olds are still in the grammar or parrot stage. Older kids answer 'why' questions, and ask why questions and we call it the logic stage. When she starts 'catching' people or TV shows out (but Scooby doo couldn't really do that!) then she is starting a new stage of development. She will be better able to start answering those questions.

 

Now, you can lead her there with appropriate questioning. But I don't think you can just expect a third grader to be able to tell you why she does the things you tell her to do or to totally understand that 'West Africa' is made of different countries. My 9.5 year old is just grasping the concept of cities vs town vs county vs states vs country as it relates to his own life, and that is mostly due to traveling. Right now she is at the stage of just learning about the world and figuring out the patterns. Right now she knows the pattern is that if she doesn't hand up her clothes she will have some repercussions. She does it because you tell her to. Good girl. The understanding why you tell her to comes later.

 

Have you listened to the lecture by SWB "the joys of classical education"? IIRC it directly addresses these concerns. It is also touched on in TWTM.

 

As for giving lots of information for narration it is either feast or famine. Kids either can parrot back the whole thing or they look panicked and say nothing. Both are totally  normal. It takes time to be able to learn how to do a good narration. It is requiring a lot of skills at once and it is harder than it looks. If you haven't used WWE or SOTW with the AG, then be prepared to start at least a level 'behind'. It is not a problem or a reflection of her abilities in any way.  This is something you want to get right, the level on the front of the book isn't at issue.

[Kathie in VA]

When mine are getting defensive I will sometimes blame the curriculum. That is I will tell them , "oh the book says the answer needs to be in a complete sentence. Can you do that for me?" Somehow they respond to that better.

[bibliophile]

Here may be a better example:

 

Q) Where in W. Africa do the missionaries live?

A) West Africa

 

So *I* want her to answer, "The missionaries, Chris and Lena, live in Guinea, West Africa."  Be specific and use a complete sentence.  It would be fine to say what kind of home they lived in or leave out their names, but the question is where they live in West Africa so the answer needs something more specific than West Africa.

 

 

 

My oldest could not summarize or answer questions like that at 8. All kids are different.

 

In your example above, I would ask the question, and then start the answer, "The missionaries....." This prompts a complete sentence.

 

For me personally, I would rephrase the question, "Where do the missionaries live?" Then the answer of West Africa, would meet my expectations of an 8 year old. I'd probably even accept Africa as an answer.

 

In the early years, my kids have had an easier time summarizing fiction than non-fiction. It is also easier when I read to them. We start out very slow and simple. I might read them a Bob book and ask the question, "What did Bob do in the story? Bob...."