article about measles that focuses on HS not vaccinating...

[Karen sn]

Someone else was comparing the risk to driving, saying that you take a chance every time you drive a car (a higher one over a lifetime of driving than being unvaccinated, certainly!!!), and I was pointing out that there are some driving risks you take on yourself, only, and some that you impose on other people through your decisions. Hence the two types of "risks." Some vaccines are one type of risk--only to your family--and some are as much or more a risk others. It wasn't my comparison to begin with!

 

If you're going to make a decision that could affect the lives of your children so profoundly, and if you are going to go against the weight of all current medical advice, please, please do it for reasons other than not feeling comfortable. I'm not comfortable with vaccinations, either. If you don't like my analogy, that's entirely your prerogative. It wasn't there to tick you off or accuse you :-) but to try to make people really consider the reasons for their choices and all the possible outcomes.

 

Now, we all know that there is virtually no good reason for driving without a seatbelt OR drunk driving. But I wasn't dealing with the potential benefits of an action that might also be dangerous, just as the original poster wasn't. :-) I was only looking at the risk side of the equation. Of course, you want to take both into consideration before making any decision!

 

The fact remains that over half of people I know who don't vaccinate don't really have a well-considered reason for it. They don't feel good about it, and they hate taking a step that they feel so loath to undergo. They feel like, in some way, they are avoiding making a potentially bad choice and don't want to fully consider that their current choice of non-action is as definite a step in a definite direction toward a definite endpoint as any other.

 

I DON'T like the medical establishment. Not one bit! I don't like the fact that doctors write so many prescriptions--and then write prescriptions to cover the side-effects of their previous prescriptions. I really, really don't like the state of OB practice in the US. I've locked horns with my OB on more than one occasion with this pregnancy, and I might even be yelling at her in the delivery room. :-) I sincerely believe that the hospital took my grandmother's case of mild pneumonia and killed her by the over-prescription of drugs that are inappropriate for the elderly. So I'm not here to defend the medical establishment against all comers! Far, far from it.

 

But if I disagree with the medical establishment, I need a good reason. Not trusting them isn't enough. I browbeat my OB/GYN into giving me an fFN test my last visit because I'm high risk for premature birth, and if it were positive, I had every intention of browbeating her into a progesterone supplement. :-) That's because I've read piles of medical papers and the statistical outcomes and I know that she sees "live, not obviously brain-damaged baby" as a good enough outcome for anyone, while I find the risks of a baby delivered at even 34 weeks to be unacceptable for MY child and want to do everything in my power to stop it. I have very specific--and well-documented--reasons for each of my deviations from the most general and longest accepted practice, and I have researched the risks just as thoroughly and strive to combine the two into a best-practices scenario.

 

If she comes at me threatening a premature C-section, for instance, I might just take her out with the nearest IV. :-)

 

(My insurance doesn't cover nurse-midwives. Before anyone asks the obvious question!)

 

Two things:

One - I suppose if I had to brow beat the medical personnel involved in my pregnancy I would find another OBGYN. You don't sound like you trust the one you have.

 

Two - EVERY SINGLE person I know who does not vaccinate is very well self educated and INFORMED on the issue. I am amazed that 100% of the non vacs you know are just doing it because they "have a feeling" and nothing more.

[Karen sn]

Depends on the vaccination. Also depends on how many babies your kids are around and how many unvaccinated people you spend time with.

 

As a homeschooler in this area, I *would* be an idiot to let my child around other homeschoolers unless he was protected against the nastiest illnesses. As it is, we're staying far away from any interaction with large local HSing groups until my next baby's fully vaccinated. With the high rates of international travel in the area and the low rates of vaccination among homeschoolers, it's a tragedy just waiting to happen.

 

Interesting. I ask my vaccinating friends to let me know when thier kids get shots so I can be careful as at this time I am pregnant. When dd was a baby I had a neighbor whose child received live oral polio vaccine that is passed in feces..... We were careful around vacc'd kids!

[Lolly]

Are you talking about this one? I haven't read it so won't comment, but it hasn't disappeared.

 

No, it is the previous study (2003) that this one mentions.

[Murphy101]

There will, of course, always be those who really can't vaccinate, for one of a host of reasons. But they can be protected by those who can--if they will. A fairly small percentage of people refusing vaccination for reasons that aren't medically valid, though, can raise the risks for many people who either would vaccinate but can't or who did vaccinate but didn't get a full immune reaction. It also destroys any attempt to fully eradicate the disease, which would render future vaccinations pointless--a process which is quite practical for a number of different diseases. Yes, we DO want to keep the colds--at least until we find another, more pleasant way of "training" our immune systems. :-) But rubella would be much better off in the history books!

 

Again. Since when is one person obligated to be forced to undertake a medical procedure of ANY kind for the sake of another? So much for freedom. In some extremely rare and extremely deadly diseases this might be neccessary, but I can't think of more than 3, none that we have vax for. I find this line of thinking, that I should take a medical risk against myself or my child for your sake to be rather scary to contemplate in a free country. I also find it completely irrelivant when making decisions about what is best for MY child's health. Fat lot of comfort it would be to me that I spared your kid some possibility of a problem, if it ends up I actually caused a problem to my own in doing so.:(

 

And yes, there ARE risks. Someone else mentioned that we need to remember these statistics are not just numbers but real people. And I completely agree. How low the numbered chances are doesn't mean diddly when it's your kid that is forever changed or dead. Right now, there is ZERO reason for me to take even that slight risk against any of my children. Should the situation change in some way, I'll reconsider.

 

I cannot think of one parent who considered needles in their vax decision-making criteria. I was dumbfounded to learn that an intelligent grandmother I knew truly thought that parents who refused vaxes or vaxed selectively did so to save their children from the temporary sting of a needle.

 

Me neither.:001_huh:

 

Ummmm....so you think everyone who homeschools and does not vaccinate is stupid?

 

I prefer to think of myself as very well educated thank you very much.

I homeschool, I do not vaccinate, AND I am a registered nurse.

 

I agree, although I'm not a nurse.:)

I think it's stupid to presume that if someone doesn't make the same medical choices as I would then they are stupid.:glare:

 

I think it is a personal decision and am a little vexed by the accusatory tone in your posts that these epidemics(if they can be called that) are the fault of an unvaccinated person in the same manner as a person who has drunk too much and got behind the wheel.:confused:

 

Indeed. And again, the obvious - that such a scenario could be reversed - is never taken too well either. I could just as easily say that I feel those who vax are like drunk drivers.

 

The metaphor implies they (drunk drivers) in either scenario deserve whatever happens to them.

 

I don't agree with that.

 

I would NEVER suggest that someone who vax'd and had a negative reaction got what they had coming to them, but very often that is exactly the attitude of those who vax against those who don't. Terrible.

 

There are risks in vaxing or not. If someone is comfortable with vaxing risks, then I completely understand that and welcome your freedom to make that choice.

 

But no, I'm not obligated, legally or morally, to agree with you.

 

For these people whom you claim refuse to vax out of fear of needle sting, it follows that they would vax if a topical anesthetic could be applied prior to injection to relieve the smarting.

 

:iagree: In fact, when I have vax'd, that's exactly what we did. Even 12 years ago that was done without a problem.

 

If you put a large generic group of homeschoolers together, I don't think you're going to find a "majority" of homeschoolers who are totally non-vax.

 

I agree here too. It's a stereotype.

 

As for getting certain vaccines that don't have, human aborted cells, metals, and so forth. No it is NOT as easy as just getting a dr to order them in. Many drs won't or it's cost prohibitive for them to do so and the insurance doesn't cover the difference and the patient can't afford the difference. And many ped drs simply bs patients about it. "Oh yeah, that's not a worry..." and brush off the parents. Not to mention many if not most parents do not have insurance that allows them to just go to any ped or to switch whenever there's a problem.

 

I'm NOT against vaccines. I'm against bad vaccines, bad implimentation of vaccines, or vaccines for things we don't need them for.

[Jenn in Mo]

My DS fell behind a bit in our move, and when I found another pediatrician here and got him caught up, the nurses were so thrilled that I was vaccinating even though I homeschool and it's not required here. I told them, "Just because I homeschool doesn't mean I'm stupid."

 

Excuse me?

 

I have researched like mad to come to the decision not to vaccinate. When convinced it was NOT the best decision for my family, no part of me went around pointing fingers at families that DO vaccinate to call them stupid.

 

Families that opt not to vaccinate do not do so blindly. They are under a lot of pressure in this decision. They face a lot of raised eyebrows (at least) and even rejection by some doctors. When my insurance changed last year, my new hospital did not have a single clinic of pediatricians that would accept a non-vaccinated child. Thankfully, my insurance was obligated to provide a pediatrician and so we have our old doctor back.

 

As someone already pointed out, it would be strange to find a parent who opted not to vaccine without having researched the decision first. It is not at all strange to find a parent who opted to vaccinate because a doctor said they should.

 

I can see that you have also researched heavily and have come to a well-thought out decision. But I ask you to please consider that other parents, who come to different decisions than you, are also capable of well thought out decisions.

[Karen sn]

moved

[Karen sn]

I told them, "Just because I homeschool doesn't mean I'm stupid."

 

I think you do a huge diservice to the entire homeschooling movement when you say things like that. Just another nail in the coffin.

[Karen sn]

 

Do you mean Jenner? If he "recanted," which I've never heard, then that would be very sad, as his development of the smallpox vaccine led to the first eradication of any infectious disease by modern medicine.

 

No - someonelse. He basically killed the kid he practiced on and felt bad. He also began to see the flaws in his theory.

 

And - I think handwashing and no raw sewage in the gutter has done more for our health than any shot. Our diet however has not.

 

How many people get the disease from the innoculation itself?

 

And no matter what you personally THINK Reya, your holier than thou/smarter than everyone else tone is really unecessary. Vaccines DO KILL and every parent has the right to choose what is best for their kid. You need to respect that as much as I disagree with BUT RESPECT your right to vaccinate (or circumcize for that matter).

 

It's called INFORMED CONSENT in the medical community of which I am a part of....but you seldom see parents actually given the entire stack of info. I have made an EDUCATED and INFORMED decision, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't call me stupid when you complain about us homeschool moms.

 

Can I ask what YOU studied in college?

 

- Karen.....BSW., RN.

[Karen sn]

a

[Karen sn]

I have met people who have an inherent distrust of needles that has caused them to not vaccinate.

 

Needles are artificial. They are unnatural. They can't be right.

 

So many people start with that and then come up with reasons to justify these fears.

 

I've also met women--plural!--who said that they took their first child in for the first round of shots and were so horrified by their child's pain and the whole procedure that they revolted against it and refused any further ones. They describe themselves as scarred by the experience and feel that shots cannot help but cause permanent psychic scars on children.

 

(I don't think the very last is ENTIRELY wrong. I do fear that in this age of SO many vaccines that we'll have a generation of adults who cannot trust doctors and see the medical establishment as primarily causing pain, not relief. This worries me a lot, honestly. I think that this is a very important reason to reduce the number of shots, if not the number of illnesses protected against!)

 

In fact, something close to 25% of the people who have talked about their avoidance of vaccines have *started with* one of the above and then proceeded to bring out one of the usual litany of justification in support. But those were just the support for the initial, irrational, gut-deep rejection. For them, facts don't really matter. They're just a crutch to support what they feel.

 

Well my dd has never had a shot.

When we pierced her ears we went to a tattoo parlor and the guy used a NEEDLE. A very large needle. No piercing gun involved.

 

And when she was born they did the heel prick! A needle!

 

The assumption that we stupid homeschoolers are afraid of needles is just too much for me!!! How many homeschool moms are pierced and tattooed! Come on.....

[Karen sn]

I would say that a 7-year-old A) would probably lave contracted chickenpox by that age, if unvaccinated, and B) if vaccinated, the likelihood that she got shingles not from the vaccine but from a subclinical infection of a "wild" strain is very real, one that vaccines reduce but can't eliminate.

 

 

 

Much like your previous quote on the nature of the CPvaccine not being live....this quote is as well completely wrong. Where my dear are you getting your "facts?"

 

My dd is ELEVEN YEARS OLD, was breastfed for 3 years, and continues to have excellent nutrition in this pathetic food culture of ours.

 

 

She has never had an outbreak of the chicken pox.

She has been exposed ON PURPOSE and on accident to every single stage of the disease in others (many others).....and yet, she has not broken out herself. There is actually the ability of one to be exposed to a disease and have such an awesome immune response as to fight it off - become immune - and never have an out break!!! Did you know that?

 

And you totally contradict yourself everywhere.

If the reason we are all going to get shingles as adults is because we are no longer being exposed to the "wild" strains of CP which would booster us....and so now we have to get a shingles vaccine......well then, WHY are we vaccinating against a relatively innocent childhood disease when the shingles we'll get later is far worse?! The repercussions of the vaccine seem very large even by your own opinion.

[kokotg]

And you totally contradict yourself everywhere.

If the reason we are all going to get shingles as adults is because we are no longer being exposed to the "wild" strains of CP which would booster us....and so now we have to get a shingles vaccine......well then, WHY are we vaccinating against a relatively innocent childhood disease when the shingles we'll get later is far worse?! The repercussions of the vaccine seem very large even by your own opinion.

 

I'll answer this since it's something I've looked into extensively in making my own decision (which, incidentally, I still haven't completely made, but I'm leaning in one direction based on my research).

 

The thinking is not that the kids who are getting vaccinated are going to get more shingles. It's that the adults today who had wild chicken pox as children are more likely to get shingles because they're not being exposed to chicken pox on a regular basis to "boost" their natural immunity. And it's not that no one got shingles before the vaccine around--one stat I saw said that 50% of people over 80 can expect to get shingles; it's very common in people who've ever had chicken pox. Again, according to preliminary studies on people who have had the vaccine, they are in fact significantly LESS likely to get shingles than people who've had wild chicken pox. The thinking is that, since shingles is reactivated chicken pox, getting the vaccine means you likely won't get the disease, which means it won't be around to reactivate. I imagine the reason it REDUCES the shingles rate instead of eliminating it is partly that it's a live vaccine and partly that a small percentage of vaccinated people will still get a mild case.

[swellmomma]

Shingles. It occurs in children who received the vaccine. In fact, more children are getting shingles since the vaccine came out. Not only that, more adults are suffering from shingles since the cp vaccine was introduced. Adults used to keep their immunity to the virus up by being exposed to children who had cp. Now that the adults (and children) are not receiving those little natural boosters from their small contagious friends, shingles is becoming more of a problem. Thus, a shingles vaccine!!! Yes, let's toss in another vaccine in to cure one of the problems caused by the first one. $$$

 

 

That's not entirely true. Both my daughter and I had shingles as kids after having the CP. I was born with the CP, my mom got them while she was pregnant with me, it caused my premature delivery and within days I had my own spots. At age 9 when my sibs got cp I got shingles. DD had CP at age 2, at age 5 she developed shingles which is what caused my yongest ds to then get CP. It is not only old folks that get it, nor is it only because of the vaccine. Those who have has CP, but have a lowered immune system for whatever reason have a chance of developing shingles even as a child.

 

As for the comment made by the poster who told the health nurse she chose to vaccinate because she wasn't stupid, that was uncalled for. By default you are saying that those who choose not to vax are stupid. The vast majority of those who do not vax choose not to after doing tons fo research, or in a case like mine after a reaction happened that prevents vaxing from being done again. My older kids were all vaxed, after dd's reaction I will not take them to be vaxed again unless they ask me to. Stupidity is blinding choosing to vax or not vax without doing your own research into it.

[Karen sn]

 

You can bash the SAD all you want, but we are sooooooooooo much safer than we used to be from disease AND better nourished that it would have been unimaginable just 150 years ago.

 

As an FYI, strep throat isn't something you want to NOT treat with antibiotics, either. It can lead to heart damage--rare cases, but enough to care about! An ear infection or a sinus infection is much better to play watch-and-see with. (I've never had that or an upper respiratory infection, either. My DS has gotten one mild ear infection, which we didn't treat with antibiotics but just monitored--he missed my strep throat last year, even!) Aggressiveness with strep is justified.

 

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/MEDLINEPLUS/ency/article/000639.htm

 

 

Sooooo.....all these fat kids (90 pounds at 3yo) are better off? I doubt we had such gluttony in a toddler when families worked on the farm and walked to town! Yes, hydrogenated oils, white flour, and white sugar in EVERYTHING we eat (to say nothing of genetically modified organisims of fungus and bacteria) have improved our diet.

 

And....obviously strep isn't gonna kill everyone or cause all these problems IF THE KIDS ARE STRONG AND HEALTHY to start with. My dd has the immune system of a horse - I made an educated decision to trust her body and the alternative medicine that I practice. Had my dd been raised on processed foods to no end and allowed to eat junk food all day, I would have given her the antibiotics.

 

You can't justify the use of western medicine all the time when it is necessary to use it because we have abused or neglected our bodies. Some families only need western medical intervention ON OCCASION because they practice a preventitive approach which serves them well.

[justme]

All I have to say about Reya's comments are "Wow". Incredibly arrogant and intolerant of other's opinions, rights, intelligence and free will to make the decisions they feel are best for themselves and their families. And if she feels so many homeschoolers are 'stupid', why is she one of them, much less on a board like this? Just to browbeat us and let us know how superior she is, apparently.

[Lolly]

I'll answer this since it's something I've looked into extensively in making my own decision (which, incidentally, I still haven't completely made, but I'm leaning in one direction based on my research).

 

The thinking is not that the kids who are getting vaccinated are going to get more shingles. It's that the adults today who had wild chicken pox as children are more likely to get shingles because they're not being exposed to chicken pox on a regular basis to "boost" their natural immunity. And it's not that no one got shingles before the vaccine around--one stat I saw said that 50% of people over 80 can expect to get shingles; it's very common in people who've ever had chicken pox. Again, according to preliminary studies on people who have had the vaccine, they are in fact significantly LESS likely to get shingles than people who've had wild chicken pox. The thinking is that, since shingles is reactivated chicken pox, getting the vaccine means you likely won't get the disease, which means it won't be around to reactivate. I imagine the reason it REDUCES the shingles rate instead of eliminating it is partly that it's a live vaccine and partly that a small percentage of vaccinated people will still get a mild case.

 

I truly respect your stance on this issue. You are being extremely courteous in your responses. It has actually been quite a few years since I have looked into this issue myself, and some of the concerns with shingles have been further looked into since I last researched it.

 

However, I would like to point out to you that having the vaccine is the same as having chicken pox. That is why an immunity is built to the disease. Theoretically, and it seems to be holding in research, as long as boosters are being given the threat of shingles is reduced. Shingles shows up in people, not necessarily when they are exposed to the chickenpox virus, but when their own body can no longer suppress the virus that is still in them. People who are routinely exposed to the virus keep their resistance to the virus because their body is remembering how to suppress it. Once the body forgets how to fight or the body is no longer able to fight it, the virus that had gone dormant in their nerve cells reemerges as shingles. Anyone who has had the vaccine has the dormant virus in their body and it can reemerge later as shingles. The 3 children I know who have had shingles after the vaccine never had the chicken pox, not even a mild case.

 

According to the information you have provided which seems more current than that I had, the people who are vaccinated are seeing less incidences of shingles. Another link stated that the or the vaccinated shingles cases, some of them seem to be from a different strain of cp than the virus was made. But, you are talking about a group that it really hasn't been that long since they were vaccinated. What is going to happen to those numbers when people get tired of or cannot afford to continue going in to have a booster every x years. Fact is, that they don't even have a clue at this point how often boosters will be needed.

 

I believe the key words for me in your post are "THE THINKING IS". The TRUTH is that they really do not know. These children are their living guinea pigs.

 

In the meanwhile, for 50-60 years or so, the adult population who had natural cp can expect to see an increase in shingles. (Of course, they can always start going in to be vaccinated for shingles regularly if they have the money or if their insurance will cover it and if they are not at risk for the vaccine due to other issues.)

[mommaduck]

I believe the key words for me in your post are "THE THINKING IS". The TRUTH is that they really do not know. These children are their living guinea pigs.

 

 

Bingo! And after having nearly lost a child to a vax, I'm more educated on both sides of the subject matter and my children are no longer some of the establishment's guinea pigs.

[Karen sn]

All I have to say about Reya's comments are "Wow". Incredibly arrogant and intolerant of other's opinions, rights, intelligence and free will to make the decisions they feel are best for themselves and their families. And if she feels so many homeschoolers are 'stupid', why is she one of them, much less on a board like this? Just to browbeat us and let us know how superior she is, apparently.

 

If I believed in repping - you'd get one! ITA!

[kokotg]

 

According to the information you have provided which seems more current than that I had, the people who are vaccinated are seeing less incidences of shingles. Another link stated that the or the vaccinated shingles cases, some of them seem to be from a different strain of cp than the virus was made. But, you are talking about a group that it really hasn't been that long since they were vaccinated. What is going to happen to those numbers when people get tired of or cannot afford to continue going in to have a booster every x years. Fact is, that they don't even have a clue at this point how often boosters will be needed.

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying. And that's one of the reasons my mind isn't made up yet. This really is one of those topics where I'm pretty in the middle. I can see both sides, and I also see propoganda and misinformation on both sides. So I wade through it the best I can when I make decisions for my kids. We have a selective/delayed schedule that I've been very comfortable with...varicella is the last hold-out that I haven't decided one way or the other on.

[hsmamainva]

I've been reading all of these posts, but I haven't written one of my own yet.

 

My oldest was completely vaxed and on time. She was hospitalized 5 times before her 2nd birthday for various illness, including pneumonia, and she had eartubes put in before her 3rd birthday. I was a stay-at-home mom, and she only played with one other little boy, about the same age as she was, and that wasn't on a daily basis. She's allergic to dairy, beef, eggs, fish and shellfish.

 

My second was completely vaxed and on time. 5 days after his MMR vaccine (which he received at 15 months) he stopped talking. Completely. He was speaking in simple sentences at that point. When he did start talking again (3 years later) it was parroted / memorized speech (echolalia) and he was diagnosed with autism at 5. He's allergic to dairy, food dyes, pork, and beef.

 

When he was diagnosed with autism, my 3rd child was 15 months old. He had already been vaccinated for everything but the MMR. We refused the MMR vaccine. He's been hospitalized numerous times; once for an entire week at Children's Hospital in Washington DC, where he almost died. He had his tonsils and adenoids removed when he was 3. He has numerous allergies: dairy, eggs, tree nuts, soy, and wheat.

 

When our last one came along, we decided we were no longer vaccinating. Period. She's never received any vaccines. She IS, however, autistic.... So...did the vaccines play a role in my older son's autism? I have no idea. I know genetics play a role in autism. However...my daughter is the healthiest of my four children. She's never been hospitalized. Never been to the emergency room (except for one trip when she fell in the bathroom on a wet floor and needed two stitches). She's never needed antibiotics. And she's 6 1/2. If the family comes down with a stomach bug or flu or other cold, she recovers the fastest. She's never been 'under the weather' for more than 12 hours.

 

All of my children were parented the same (breastfed for years with child-led weaning, natural foods, no day care, preschool or playgroups).

 

I'm not offering an opinion one way or the other. Each family must make their own choice for themselves. I'm merely offering my own personal experience. Take what you will and leave the rest. :)

[Lolly]

Kokotg, it is actually not one of my biggies either. My problem with it comes from when it first came out. My dc were young, but most of them not babies anymore. I trusted my pediatrician like most people do. I asked her advice on whether or not to give it. She advised against it. According to her cp was not a dangerous disease and they would be better off getting it naturally. The vaccine was really to keep parents who worked and could not take time off to care for their children while they had cp, her statement not mine.She advised waiting until they were hitting their teens and getting it then if they had not already had it. The next year, she was telling me how deadly cp was. It is a horrible disease that is killing our children. I really needed to have them vaccinated immediately. I was flabbergasted and confused. My eldest had the vaccine at age 11. The other 3 have not had it.

 

Other background info on my disregard for vaccines in general: I have had adverse reactions to Tetanus. My father had adverse reactions to the same. My grandmother also had adverse reactions. We all three have been told to never have it again. it can be deadly if we do. My first dd reacted progressively stronger to every set of vaccinations. The last of the baby set was severe. It was the same family reaction I'd had to the Tetanus vaccine, limited temporary paralysis of the injected limb, extreme fever, extreme swelling, extreme crying (infant), extreme pain. I remember my last tetanus; I was 12 and they switched from using a horse based serum which was supposedly causing the problems in most patients, so they tried me again with it. I missed school for a week. I thought my arm was going to burst open from being so swollen. I took dd in to show the results of the shot and report an adverse reaction. Seems it was never reported. When the time came for her shots at 5, there was no record of a report being filed by the health department. The pediatrician consulted with the cdc in Atlanta and was told to give dd a medical exemption for that vaccine. Seems the family record fits a perfect genetic recessive trait formula (25% showing in offspring). Then ds came due for his 5 yo shots. By this point, I had taken it upon myself to become more informed. I told the dr he could give ds 2 vaccines. Dr. could chose which ones. If there were no problems, we would be back for 2 more in a few months. Within 2 weeks of receiving the dpt and mmr, ds developed a cold that had no mucous, that turned out to be allergy symptoms (wiping nose, snorting, sniffing) but no noticeable drainage, that turned out to be Tourette's. The "cold" behaviors never went away, dr decided they must be due to allergies with a post nasal drip that we just weren't noticing. Allergy testing has proven that he is actually allergic to absolutely nothing. The allergy symptoms were tics caused by Tourette's which became more and more apparent as they progressed.He is 11 now and has not had another vaccination. This is also an unreported connection as I cannot prove it and have no documentation to link the two. I do wonder how many children are injured by vaccines that are never reported. I suspect the number is far higher than anyone would ever imagine. So, basically, I do not trust the medical community any longer. I will make my own decisions based on my own research. That research will not rely strictly on the information put out by the government or the drug companies. Why can't the doctors just be honest with us about these things? Oh, I know, we might now agree to have the shots.

[EKS]

I had the opportunity to see the vaccination records for our entire homeschool "school" group (about 70 families). I was horrifed and suprised to find that *at least* 50% of them did not vaccinate. In our state you can choose to not vaccinate "just 'cause".

[lighthouseacademy]

PleasepleasePLEASE look up these objections in a forum that gives solid information.

 

For #3... You can entirely avoid ANY chemical you can reasonably find objectionable by looking up the contents of various vaccine formulations and making sure your pediatrician gives you formulas you approve of! If he can't, then just find someone else for some of the vaccines. You can get ALL the standard vaccines without any heavy metals.

 

I was poisoned by arsenic for 9.5 years. My kidneys are still less than fabulous because of it. I don't think heavy metals are a joke. But you DON'T need to avoid vac. because of fears of heavy metals!

 

As for #1.... That really is the entire point. :-) You bypass the skin and digestive system to make sure the body has something to react to. If you didn't, they you couldn't get an immunity. This method has been used to inoculate--not vaccinate--against smallpox for over a thousand years. It wasn't nearly as good as modern methods, but even that saved countless lives.

 

For #2, there's no evidence whatsoever that any autoimmune disease save, very rarely, Guillain-Barré syndrome is linked to vaccinations.

 

Actually, a person can become immune to something if exposed to it naturally and it goes through the usual immune stimulating channels (NOT through the bloodstream) and the person DOES NOT have to ever show symptoms of that disease. We know for a fact that there are thousands of strains of flu which we come in contact with all the time. We don't get sick every time we come in contact with a virus though- not because it is similar enough to a previous one, but because our bodies work and they create the antibodies before that disease has enough time to replicate sufficiently to make us sick. So, by bypassing the front door to the immune system, we are indeed creating antibodies, but when the body comes in contact with the virus through the front door, it may not respond as quickly as if it had originally been introduced through the front door! Furthermore, there are antibodies created in the front door that are not created if we bypass it... again, I have a HUGE problem with circumventing the natural defenses of the body.

 

You assert that you can avoid any chemical you want in vaccines. Good luck with that! There are a few vaccines with few preservatives, however, they all contain some sort of preservative, antibiotic, antiviral, chemicals, etc. There are only so many manufacturers and they all use the chemicals. Also, there will ALWAYS be foreign proteins present no matter how much the vaccine is distilled. This is why vaccine manufacturers show that an allergy to eggs is a counterindication to the MMR. Despite this, the AAP says there is no risk. I disagree. There are indeed proven traces of albumin in the MMR vaccine. To inject a protein that a person has already shown an allergy to into the bloodstream does not make for prudent practice. Would you inject trace amounts of peanut protein into the bloodstream of a peanut allergic person? In fact that peanut allergic person would do everything to avoid EATING (remember that first line of defense on the immune system?) things that are processed in the same factory as peanuts for fear that some peanut contaminated air might touch what they are eating!

 

I disagree with you on the auto immune disorders- while you are correct that there has not been a study that says, if you have _______ vaccine, you will get __________ auto immune disorder; however, auto immune disorders are a result of the body attacking self. This is not a normal occurrence. All cells in the body are known to the body as self. If foreign proteins get into the blood stream (candida overgrowth creating a leaky gut, injections, etc) then IF those proteins are similar enough to the person's own cells, the body will attack itself.

So, for example, diabetes is a result of the pancreas not functioning properly. Sometimes it is autoimmune in nature. A person, by the age of 10, who has received all 4 doses of Hib is 26% more likely to be diagnosed with diabetes as one who has received 0 doses. Furthermore, the likelihood of being diagnosed with diabetes goes up with each dose- so a person who receives 1 dose of Hib is less likely to be diagnosed with diabetes as one who had 2 doses, etc.

[lighthouseacademy]

I do wonder how many children are injured by vaccines that are never reported. I suspect the number is far higher than anyone would ever imagine. So, basically, I do not trust the medical community any longer. I will make my own decisions based on my own research. That research will not rely strictly on the information put out by the government or the drug companies. Why can't the doctors just be honest with us about these things? Oh, I know, we might now agree to have the shots.

 

I know that even when the doctor tells a parent that the reaction was from the vaccine and not to vaccinate again or to vaccinate further children and issues a medical exemption, even then the reaction is not always reported... This is not hearsay- this is my good friend and her family I speak of.

[Perry]

This is why vaccine manufacturers show that an allergy to eggs is a counterindication to the MMR. Despite this, the AAP says there is no risk. I disagree. There are indeed proven traces of albumin in the MMR vaccine. To inject a protein that a person has already shown an allergy to into the bloodstream does not make for prudent practice. Would you inject trace amounts of peanut protein into the bloodstream of a peanut allergic person?

 

What I would want to know is whether or not it's safe. Several studies have shown that it is safe to give the MMR to kids with egg allergy:

From

N Engl J Med. 1995 May 11;332(19):1262-6.

Safe administration of the measles vaccine to children allergic to eggs.

James JM, Burks AW, Roberson PK, Sampson HA.

 

Background The safety of administering the combined measles–mumps–rubella (MMR) vaccine to patients who are allergic to eggs has been debated for decades because of concern about potential anaphylaxis, since the live attenuated virus used in the vaccine is grown in cultured chick-embryo fibroblasts.

Methods We recruited 54 children (mean age, 18.5 months) who had not previously been vaccinated and were allergic to eggs. The children's histories of allergy were confirmed with skin tests and double-blind, placebo-controlled food-challenge tests; some children also underwent skin testing with the MMR vaccine. We then routinely administered the vaccine to the children in one subcutaneous (0.5-ml) dose.

Results All 54 children had positive results on skin testing with egg. Allergy to eggs was confirmed in 26 of the children by convincing histories of anaphylaxis after the ingestion of eggs, in 22 children by food-challenge tests, and in 6 patients by convincing histories of recent allergic reactions occurring after the ingestion of eggs. Of the 17 children who underwent skin testing with the MMR vaccine, 3 had positive results. All 54 children received the MMR vaccine as a single subcutaneous injection; none had an immediate or delayed adverse reaction.

Conclusions The MMR vaccine can be safely administered in a single dose to children with allergy to eggs, even those with severe hypersensitivity.

and

from MMR immunisation : True anaphylaxis to MMR vaccine is extremely rare Jonathan R Carapetis, Nigel Curtis, and Jenny Royle

BMJ. 2001 October 13; 323(7317): 869.

 

True anaphylaxis to MMR vaccine is extremely rare, and most cases have occurred in children not allergic to eggs. In a study at our hospital over 400 children with documented egg allergy received the vaccine; minor reactions (not requiring treatment) occurred in four, and no major reactions occurred.2 Since that time we have immunised hundreds more children with known or suspected egg allergy at our immunisation clinic and have not seen any severe reactions. We do not routinely carry out skin tests on these children for reaction to either egg protein or components of the MMR vaccine.

Children with egg allergy can safely be given MMR vaccine in a centre where resuscitation facilities (including adrenaline) are available. These facilities are required to be present for any immunisation, not just when MMR vaccine is given.

 

 

 

The methods in the study that found an association between Hib and diabetes were controversial. Subsequent studies have found no association.

[mommaduck]

I had the opportunity to see the vaccination records for our entire homeschool "school" group (about 70 families). I was horrifed and suprised to find that *at least* 50% of them did not vaccinate. In our state you can choose to not vaccinate "just 'cause".

 

That reaction (though not surprising due to all the fearmongering out there) is a bit over the top. We're not plague ridden people. There are very good reasons for not vaxing...in our case, it was due to a reaction and the fact that there has been a link made for genetic predispositions that react to ingredients commonly used in vax's. This reaction could potentially KILL my children...and my children's vaccination status does not affect your children whatsoever (if we were in the same hs group ;) ). Most people do not NOT vax "just because". Most of the time, there is a reason. Most of the time though, these people are not willing to state their reason either because a) they don't owe you a reason b ) giving a reason makes them vulnerable, because now they open themselves up to being questioned on those reasons when the reasons may be more indepth than a simple statement could cover and c) because they don't want or need someone else's criticism for the, typically well researched and thought out, decisions they've made for their family (and quite a few with medical/physician support/approval).

[lighthouseacademy]

The methods in the study that found an association between Hib and diabetes were controversial. Subsequent studies have found no association.

 

The study you cited was interesting. It is difficult to actually draw a conclusion from that study because the numbers of children is not easy to see- they cite them as person years and number of cases. It would be easier to see if 100 people at age 10 who were unvaccinated had 3 cases of diabetes and 100 people with 1 dose of ___ vaccine had 4 cases and 100 people with 2 doses of ___ had 3 cases etc. But, putting it into "person years" is not exactly comparing apples to apples.

[Mommyof4ks]

There have been a few interesting studies looking at the rise in autoimmune diseases and the possible link to the lack of bacteria and viruses we are no longer exposed to due to hygiene and vaccs. Disease is a nature state for us, and since we are trying to eliminate many forms of both from our lives, our bodies are going a bit hay wire. I think this will continue to be an interesting area of study for some years to come.

 

I am one of those on both sides of the fence. Our 3 year old has leukemia which was caused by a gene mutation that happened sometime during pregnancy and triggered by something a few months before we found it. He is now immune compromised, and even a common disease like chicken pox or 5ths disease can be deadly for him, but at the same time we were told not to be overly careful about germs because there is some evidence that not enough germs can lead to autoimmune diseases including asthma.

 

Basically we have to keep him away from the most deadly diseases including the flu, but we have to let him get dirty and germy with 'normal' germs.

 

I don't think that article was targeting homeschoolers in a negative way, but merely noting that we make up a large group of those who don't vaccinate which at least in our area is true.

[Perry]

The study you cited was interesting. It is difficult to actually draw a conclusion from that study because the numbers of children is not easy to see- they cite them as person years and number of cases. It would be easier to see if 100 people at age 10 who were unvaccinated had 3 cases of diabetes and 100 people with 1 dose of ___ vaccine had 4 cases and 100 people with 2 doses of ___ had 3 cases etc. But, putting it into "person years" is not exactly comparing apples to apples.

 

Using "person-years" is the standard statistical method used when you follow people over time. Basically, it allows people followed longer to count more. If you are looking for the development of some possible outcome that may not show up for awhile, you want to follow them for a long period of time. When you follow some people for ten years, and others for a few months, those you follow for years are going to give you more reliable information. In this study, the rate ratio and confidence interval are the important measures. None of them are significant.

[EKS]

Actually in our community, whooping cough makes a run through the less vaccinated groups every few years, so it is not fear mongering but a reality.

 

And you will note, that I *didn't* say that these particular people don't vaccinate "just 'cause" but that *our state* allows any reason (or no reason). I certainly wouldn't ask anyone their reason and I wouldn't pull my kids out of the homeschool group because of the low rate of vaccination. But it is good to know that the herd immunity doesn't apply in that setting. And I would go so far as to say that the parents with children in that group have a right to know about the low vaccination rate so that they can choose what is best for their family as far as participation goes.

 

As a society we have lost the memory of what things were like before vaccination. My mother, who is in her 70s, had a friend who died of measles and remembers herself having whooping cough at age 5--she has horrifying descriptions of it. As a result of this collective memory loss, people imagine that the risks of vaccination outweigh the benefits and perhaps they do at this point in time; however, if the herd immunity were to reach a critical low point we would be sure to see the benefits of vaccination in a different light.

[mommaduck]

...and yet, where I've lived, whooping cough always made the rounds in the public school systems where just about everyone is vaccinated and I never saw it once in our large co-op.

[Mrs Mungo]

And I would go so far as to say that the parents with children in that group have a right to know about the low vaccination rate so that they can choose what is best for their family as far as participation goes.

 

But a LOT of people selectively vaccinate. My children have the DPT, MMR, etc. They didn't get the prevnar, it is recommended for babies under 2, mine were breastfed until 2 1/2, were never in group care/school and never had siblings who were, they were low risk. They didn't get Hepatitis B and unless they're sharing needles or getting tattoos at the homeschool group I'm not really worried about them picking it up there.

 

This issue is MUCH more complicated than some would like to believe.

 

Are there risks and unknowns on both sides? YES and I think both sides should be respectful of that fact.

[EKS]

What I saw in the school records didn't even take selective vaccination into account. I just noticed the blank front (where you're supposed to list the dates received) and the signed back, saying that they were declined for whatever reason.

[Murphy101]

I would go so far as to say that the parents with children in that group have a right to know about the low vaccination rate so that they can choose what is best for their family as far as participation goes.

 

And you'd be wrong. No one has a "right" to my kids' medical records, which includes vax records. It's none of your business. That's what HIPPA and private records laws for students are for - to protect parental and child privacy.

 

But a LOT of people selectively vaccinate. My children have the DPT, MMR, etc. They didn't get the prevnar, it is recommended for babies under 2, mine were breastfed until 2 1/2, were never in group care/school and never had siblings who were, they were low risk. They didn't get Hepatitis B and unless they're sharing needles or getting tattoos at the homeschool group I'm not really worried about them picking it up there.

 

This issue is MUCH more complicated than some would like to believe.

 

Are there risks and unknowns on both sides? YES and I think both sides should be respectful of that fact.

 

:iagree:

[EKS]

My post said that parents should have a right to know about the low vaccination *rate* for a particular school group that is required *by law* to have vaccination records on file (in my state). That would be a *statistic*, not your children's specific medical records.

[mommaduck]

Curious what state you are in that requires homeschooler's vaccination records. In ours, even if you vax, you can sign a form declining to give that information...far as I'm concerned, it's not even the homeschool group's business. I wouldn't join a group a demanded to know my kids' vax status...my kid is no more a danger than anyone else's kid.

[Perry]

Don't know about EKS, but in Iowa it's required information.

[mommaduck]

Yes, but it appeared that EKS was referring to the homeschool group not the local super's office...unless she was speaking about records at the super's office.

 

Also, when given the option of putting "no reason" down vs a reason, many parents with good reason will still put "no reason" down as there are some legal issues that could creep up if you stated your reason...if you don't state your reason, they can't question you further.

[EKS]

The homeschool group I am referring to is a group affiliated with the public schools, although private schools must also have vaccination records on file. Also when you file the required paperwork with the district, part of that paperwork is the vaccination record. On the vaccination paperwork it says that by not vaccinating your child you understand that they can be excluded from school (public or private) if there is an outbreak of a vaccine preventable illness. This is Washington State.

[EKS]

These were public school records. They had a binder with all of them in it and we were supposed to find ours and update it. *NOT* legal I'm sure, but it sure was enlightening!

 

I believe that there are two check boxes, one for medical reasons and the other for "other".

[mommaduck]

Oh well, a public school, that explains it. A typical "homeschool group" though would not have those kinds of records and I don't know of any that would be bald enough to demand them.

[EKS]

I wouldn't expect a private homeschool group to ask for vaccination records. But the intent of my original post was to give an example of a homeschool group that indeed had a lower than average vaccination rate.

[mommaduck]

But the intent of my original post was to give an example of a homeschool group that indeed had a lower than average vaccination rate.

 

I expect that out of a homeschool group also...not uncommon.

[EKS]

I know. I figured the vaccination rates would be lower among homeschoolers. I was a bit surprised by the extent of it.

[lighthouseacademy]

What I saw in the school records didn't even take selective vaccination into account. I just noticed the blank front (where you're supposed to list the dates received) and the signed back, saying that they were declined for whatever reason.

 

There are some states, CA being one of them, if you list any vaccines that the child HAS had, you can't claim the philosophical or religious exemptions and have to have a doctor's exemption- so many families just claim none. Also, there are many homeschooling families who don't believe it is a personal decision whether or not they vaccinate and will sign the waiver even if they are 100% vaccinating.

[EKS]

That could be the case here too.

 

Though, you know what I recently found out? The Health Department also has the records and shares them automatically with the schools now. I had to fill out a form several years ago when my 12 yo started but when my 6 yo started last year, the school already had the records beautifully printed on one of their forms and all I had to do was verify that it was accurate and sign. Which was fine with me because it meant that I didn't have to dig up his records myself, but for someone concerned with privacy this would be disturbing to say the least!

[Murphy101]

These were public school records. They had a binder with all of them in it and we were supposed to find ours and update it. *NOT* legal I'm sure, but it sure was enlightening!

 

I believe that there are two check boxes, one for medical reasons and the other for "other".

 

nope, not legal at all. At the very least it violates federal HIPPA laws, but many states now have school student privacy laws as well.

 

also, as others noted, a lbank form doesn't mean not vaccinated and checking "other" doesn't mean they don't have various reasons.

 

many people simply refuse to give the information for their own reasons or the schools may have just made a card up for the unknown status of some students.

 

That could be the case here too.

 

Though, you know what I recently found out? The Health Department also has the records and shares them automatically with the schools now. I had to fill out a form several years ago when my 12 yo started but when my 6 yo started last year, the school already had the records beautifully printed on one of their forms and all I had to do was verify that it was accurate and sign. Which was fine with me because it meant that I didn't have to dig up his records myself, but for someone concerned with privacy this would be disturbing to say the least!

 

In my state, the state health department doesn't have any records for my kids. My kids have never gotten treatment at the health department and peds here aren't required to routinely give patient info to them. Maybe generic "X number of patients received X number and type of shots", but not patient specific at all. People can go to the health dept for their shots to get them free or at reduced cost and they'll stamp their card, but they don't send th einfo to the schools for them to my knowledge. Also, one of the reasons I've never used the health dept even for the first few kids I did some of the shots with - the health dept does not let you pick and choose which shots to accept and they certainly don't give you the option of choosing which kind of vaccine. You get the combo they have or not.

[Jenn in Mo]

Actually in our community, whooping cough makes a run through the less vaccinated groups every few years, so it is not fear mongering but a reality.

 

And you will note, that I *didn't* say that these particular people don't vaccinate "just 'cause" but that *our state* allows any reason (or no reason). I certainly wouldn't ask anyone their reason and I wouldn't pull my kids out of the homeschool group because of the low rate of vaccination. But it is good to know that the herd immunity doesn't apply in that setting. And I would go so far as to say that the parents with children in that group have a right to know about the low vaccination rate so that they can choose what is best for their family as far as participation goes.

 

As a society we have lost the memory of what things were like before vaccination. My mother, who is in her 70s, had a friend who died of measles and remembers herself having whooping cough at age 5--she has horrifying descriptions of it. As a result of this collective memory loss, people imagine that the risks of vaccination outweigh the benefits and perhaps they do at this point in time; however, if the herd immunity were to reach a critical low point we would be sure to see the benefits of vaccination in a different light.

 

Not as an argument, but as another perspective, I wanted to point out that I don't think most non-vaxers are walking around afraid that their children are going to be exposed to other non-vaxers. There is not a constant fear of them coming down with something. I'm sure I'm not speaking for everyone, but I think it is a common misconception that we are banking on the majority of vaccinated children lowering our odds of getting something. The huge *if* of my child getting something is viewed with the answer..."if", then we'll deal with it and his immune system will be all the better for it.

 

I know you spoke of death and bad experiences with diseases, but again, the odds are very, very low and *if* then it is a relief to know that we have a lot better medical facilities available to us today than our grandmothers had 65 years ago.

[EKS]

The Health Department apparently got the records from the kids' pediatrician.

[mommaduck]

Kai, I can tell you that there are many children out there that don't even have a pediatrician. They have general practitioners or naturopaths (these are also degreed people and legit) as their primary and many times are not seen unless there is a need...in fact, it will sometimes be the practitioner that recommends not to bring a child in unless necessary (particularly if the family is large and the mother knows what to look for, has shown past ability to spot and identify things, or has some form of medical experience herself). These children may or may not be vaccinated or selectively so and thus these children also would not be in the database.

 

Also, shame on the school district for making everyone's vax status (though mostly likely many are inaccurate and simply act as though they have none because they too believe it's nobody's business) available for public viewing. I'm surprised the district hasn't been threatened with a lawsuit.

 

 

Note to all: good place for suggested reading is mothering.com and mothering.com/discussions they have a vax forum over there. There are also plenty of people over there with medical degrees of various sorts that are open to answering questions.