My previously "bright and capable" math student has BOGGED down.

[abrightmom]

Is this normal? Maybe not for every kid but for some?

 

His retention with 5th grade math is shaky. He has GREAT conceptual understanding but doesn't remember HOW to do much of the new math he learned, especially anything related to decimals or fractions. We worked thoroughly and diligently through MM 5th grade (not Geometry though) and while he understood his work at the time he doesn't remember how to do it now ….. 

 

He seems to have outgrown his "fit" with mastery math and now needs something more spiral in nature. 

 

 

 

 

[boscopup]

Is this normal? Maybe not for every kid but for some?

 

His retention with 5th grade math is shaky. He has GREAT conceptual understanding but doesn't remember HOW to do much of the new math he learned, especially anything related to decimals or fractions. We worked thoroughly and diligently through MM 5th grade (not Geometry though) and while he understood his work at the time he doesn't remember how to do it now ….. 

 

He seems to have outgrown his "fit" with mastery math and now needs something more spiral in nature. 

 

My oldest needed a little more repetition starting last summer when he finished Singapore 5B. For him, it was a combination of lots of stuff packed in and needing more sleep. Seriously, he was forgetting basic math facts until I moved him out of his brothers' room so he could sleep in a bit in the morning. :tongue_smilie:

 

But there are a lot of new things in 5th grade math, so I can see that needing to be reviewed more. My son is past that level, but still does CLE Math 500 as a warmup each day to keep those basic elementary things fresh (he's in prealgebra and doing well). You may not need a full program though. Perhaps one of those daily math review things would be enough? There are free ones online, or you can pay for one. Here's one I've found, but haven't used myself:

 

https://www.aea267.k12.ia.us/math/resources/daily-routines

 

I may actually switch to this when my son finishes CLE 500 (he was toward the end of 507 when we finished school).

[Crimson Wife]

Maybe try something more applied for the time being? My oldest hit a wall recently in her math so we've gone "sideways" to a consumer math text. Simply Charlotte Mason has one geared for grades 3-6.

[In2why]

I bought Key to Fractions because we had the exact same experience with MM.   I love it so much I ordered Key to Decimals and percentages as well.   They really break it down and the workbooks give him back his confidence.  I really want him to understand fractions since there is so much more to come. 

[Crimson Wife]

For fractions, I do a lot of "hands-on" work with Rainbow Fraction Tiles to reinforce lessons in Singapore. http://www.learningresources.com/product/rainbow+fraction--174-+tiles.do

[Murrayshire]

My oldest needed a little more repetition starting last summer when he finished Singapore 5B. For him, it was a combination of lots of stuff packed in and needing more sleep. Seriously, he was forgetting basic math facts until I moved him out of his brothers' room so he could sleep in a bit in the morning. :tongue_smilie:

 

But there are a lot of new things in 5th grade math, so I can see that needing to be reviewed more. My son is past that level, but still does CLE Math 500 as a warmup each day to keep those basic elementary things fresh (he's in prealgebra and doing well). You may not need a full program though. Perhaps one of those daily math review things would be enough? There are free ones online, or you can pay for one. Here's one I've found, but haven't used myself:

 

https://www.aea267.k12.ia.us/math/resources/daily-routines

 

I may actually switch to this when my son finishes CLE 500 (he was toward the end of 507 when we finished school).

Wow Boscopup!

These are great! Love them even more b/c they're FREE!!

[abrightmom]

I bought Key to Fractions because we had the exact same experience with MM.   I love it so much I ordered Key to Decimals and percentages as well.   They really break it down and the workbooks give him back his confidence.  I really want him to understand fractions since there is so much more to come. 

Where did you purchase these? I did look them over and think that we might like them for Geometry but perhaps Fractions, Decimals and Percentages would be ideal. 

 

ETA: Looks like Rainbow Resource has them! :coolgleamA:   

[dereksurfs]

Is this normal? Maybe not for every kid but for some?

 

His retention with 5th grade math is shaky. He has GREAT conceptual understanding but doesn't remember HOW to do much of the new math he learned, especially anything related to decimals or fractions. We worked thoroughly and diligently through MM 5th grade (not Geometry though) and while he understood his work at the time he doesn't remember how to do it now ….. 

 

He seems to have outgrown his "fit" with mastery math and now needs something more spiral in nature. 

 

I agree with boscopup about 5th grade having a lot of new material.  One thing we've done which may work for you is to use CLE and MM together.  This provides a lot of review and concept reinforcement.  Basically we used CLE as the spine 3-4 days a week with MM 1-2 days a week.  I find MM to be more challenging and do a bit better job with concept development.  So through combining them we've gotten the benefits of both.  Next year though I'm actually planning to move them to MM as a spine.  In addition we do math through Summer.  So they will be doing MM exclusively all Summer for view and added depth.

 

One concern with CLE that many of use CLE families have and face is what to do beyond 600.  Pre-A is actually stretched out over 2 years in 700 & 800.  So some skip one which leaves some important Pre-A concepts out entirely.  I'm still undecided what to do with our DDs after 600.  One option is to move out of CLE entirely after 600 to another Pre-A.

 

Another thing to do would be to move ahead with MM 6th grade 3-4 days a week and use another 5th grade review 1-2 days a week.  That way you can still complete primary math with MM since you only have one year to go.  But then come along side with review for reinforcement of those concepts.  

[madteaparty]

We have used Singapore all the way, and only now in 5B we find ourselves having to use worksheets, supplements etc to drill the four operations of decimals, and to a lesser extent, fractions too. When you think of it, there's multiple algorithms to be learned and some of them don't neccesarily make intuitive sense.

[Farrar]

Yes, thanks, Boscopup!  Those are exactly what I wanted for ds who forgets algorithms if he doesn't practice.  This year I had him do a cheapie test prep book on the side, but it was too easy and not enough mixed review.

[abrightmom]

I agree with boscopup about 5th grade having a lot of new material.  One thing we've done which may work for you is to use CLE and MM together.  This provides a lot of review and concept reinforcement.  Basically we used CLE as the spine 3-4 days a week with MM 1-2 days a week.  I find MM to be more challenging and do a bit better job with concept development.  So through combining them we've gotten the benefits of both.  Next year though I'm actually planning to move them to MM as a spine.  In addition we do math through Summer.  So there will be doing MM exclusively all Summer for view and added depth.

 

One concern with CLE that many of use CLE families have and face is what to do beyond 600.  Pre-A is actually stretched out over 2 years in 700 & 800.  So some skip one which leaves some important Pre-A concepts out entirely.  I'm still undecided what to do with our DDs after 600.  One option is to move out of CLE entirely after 600 to another Pre-A.

 

Another thing to do would be to move ahead with MM 6th grade 3-4 days a week and use another 5th grade review 1-2 days a week.  That way you can still complete primary math with MM since you only have one year to go.  But them come along side with review for reinforcement of those concepts.  

We've been using MM for 5 years and CLE for two.  I agree Math Mammoth is more challenging and better at conceptual development. For this non-mathy math loving Mama Math Mammoth has been a blessing. :D  But, CLE wins for ease of use and laying a strong foundation! My perfect elementary math curriculum would be a blend of MM and CLE ….. 

 

We couldn't work through an entire year of MM only doing it two days a week, even year round. How are you doing this with your girls? Are you cherry picking concepts or simply working through in order? Are you cutting the MM work in half or omitting some of the CLE work? If you use Math Mammoth as your spine how does CLE fit in? What is your daily/weekly/yearly routine?

 

I didn't know that CLE takes two years for Pre-A. Bummer. I have a bit of time to iron out those wrinkles for my middlers though …. 

 

My rising 6th grader has done well with MM but I'm questioning whether or not he should continue. Would it be foolish to "jump ship"? Should I use CLE or Key To for a few months and then evaluate based upon how the "review" goes for him? Mastery worked for him so well in the past but this last school year our math and English (both mastery based) were struggles. He now needs regular review so I'm questioning the approach and seeking to change course if that will keep him moving forward without so much frustration. It works better for me if I can use ONE main program with each student OR have a prepared routine/schedule combining the two. If someone can help me know how to blend CLE and MM for my rising 6th grader that might help. I've been looking at Tabletclass Pre-A and Saxon (and Lial's and Dolciani …. ) for math after elementary school. I have also *gulp* been considering moving my oldest to Saxon and admittedly, it looks good to me. 

[KrissiK]

Must be the age. Lol. My 5th grader has been successful with Singapore all these years and now..... he's just losing it. He's shaky on fractions (either Singapore doesn't do a good job with fractions or I did a lousy job teaching, but whatever the case....), he's shaky on a lot of things and he's barely finishing 4b. And this was a kid I felt was "mathy". I'm jumping ship and putting him on A Beka for next year. My dd finished A Beka second grade math a couple months ago and is doing third grade now and her math skills are so much more solid than DS's. I knew that I would need to supplement a little more with Singapore with the basic skills, but I didn't realize how much and now I'm seeing that I need a curriculum that will do it for me. Conceptually understanding math is important, yes, but so is having math facts, algorithms, etc. at your mental fingertips and my son, coming out of Singapore, doesn't have that. I'm not placing the blame squarely on Singapore, but for me, I need a curriculum that has that built in and so I don't have to do extra.... Whatever. KWIM?

[Acadie]

MM5 is exactly where we started needing spiral review too!  We used Math Minutes 6 this year:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Grade-Math-Minutes-Stoffel/dp/1591984300/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0PDN7HB1G0ENGHJ3WTFG

 

Next year I plan to use Simple Solutions Common Core 7 because the school my dd might go to uses it too:

 

http://www.simplesolutions.org/products/common_core_math.cfm?grade=7

 

Math Minutes really is just a couple minutes.  Simple Solutions will take longer--I'm guessing maybe 10-15?

 

Amy

[TracyP]

We've been using MM for 5 years and CLE for two.  I agree Math Mammoth is more challenging and better at conceptual development. For this non-mathy math loving Mama Math Mammoth has been a blessing. :D  But, CLE wins for ease of use and laying a strong foundation! My perfect elementary math curriculum would be a blend of MM and CLE ….. 

 

 

:iagree:

 

My oldest used a MM/CLE combo all the way through. It worked for her because she is an incredibly fast worker, we skipped CLE quizzes and tests, and we were also able to skip parts of MM that were review because of CLE or skip parts of CLE that were review because of MM. We will be using a combo of CLE and AoPS next year, fwiw.

 

If MM/CLE is a combo you would like to try for your son, I think it could work well in 6th grade. A lot of 6th grade MM is review if you are using the old version (IIRC, she mentions which parts are review in the intro). I would place him according to the CLE placement test and use MM as the supplement. This could be done two ways. You could switch days between the two programs. For example, CLE on M/W/F and MM on T/Th or have him do a CLE lesson daily and meet at a separate time to work through MM together. I prefer option 2. He should be able to do CLE independently at this age, so your together time will be to stretch his brain. Skip the parts of MM that he knows and focus on weaknesses during this time. Independent review (CLE) combined with brain stretching time working side by side with me has worked very well here. HTH!

[3andme]

Regarding CLE, you really do not need to do the 800 level prior to Algebra. If you look at the scope and sequence, by the end of the 700 level, CLE will have covered all the essential pre-algebra skills. I know pre-algebra programs vary in scope but completing 700 would be equivalent to most of them. The 800 level actually covers quite a bit of higher level geometry, actual algebra, and practical math skills. It would be beneficial to do it but I don't think necessary. CLE follows a more traditional math sequence - topping out at at Pre-calculus not Calculus -  so they do Algebra I in 9th and incorporate additional practical math skills in 8th.

[dereksurfs]

We couldn't work through an entire year of MM only doing it two days a week, even year round. How are you doing this with your girls? Are you cherry picking concepts or simply working through in order? Are you cutting the MM work in half or omitting some of the CLE work? If you use Math Mammoth as your spine how does CLE fit in? What is your daily/weekly/yearly routine?

 

TracyP gave a good explanation her approach in combining them.  We do something similar.  

 

First, CLE is very redundant due to its spiral nature.  So it can easily be accelerated as quite a number of families do. We simply skip the first or the last LU depending on the grade as they are mostly review.  But more could be streamlined for sure.  

 

Second, MM gives way more problems than are actually needed on purpose.  Maria wants kids to have extra problems available.   This adds in flexibility.  In using MM as a spine a child could easily do every other problem and still get through all the concepts and material just fine.  So that cuts the work in half if you are not doing that already.  Then more could be trimmed if the child demonstrates mastery through testing.  At that point move ahead to the next section. 

 

We like 3-4 days with the spine followed by 1-2 with the supplement.  But it could also be broken up daily as TracyP does.  I like to have them spend more time with math than other subjects.  So 1.5 hours a day is the norm.  1 hour could be spine followed by .5 of the supplement.  Although having only 'one' curriculum is appealing for ease of use it does not always serve the child's unique needs as well.  I doubt switching to Saxon will somehow change that.  Though yes, it would be easier.

 

 

I didn't know that CLE takes two years for Pre-A. Bummer. I have a bit of time to iron out those wrinkles for my middlers though …. 

 

Yes, it is designed as a two year pre-A program with some consumer math and pre-geometry thrown in there.  Some folks do a variety of things including skipping a whole year.  Though I wouldn't recommend that after carefully reviewing the S&S.  CLE designed them to work together in a spiral fashion.  While some things get introduced in 700 they are not fully developed until 800.  And some Pre-A topics are left out entirely until 800.  IMO, much is missed in skipping 800 which one would get in another Pre-A program like TabletClass.  This includes The Pythagorean Theorem, Graphing linear equations on a coordinate plane, The distributive property with negative numbers and many more topics.  I would rather have a child a little over prepared than under prepared when it comes to Algebra 1.

 

 

My rising 6th grader has done well with MM but I'm questioning whether or not he should continue. Would it be foolish to "jump ship"? Should I use CLE or Key To for a few months and then evaluate based upon how the "review" goes for him? Mastery worked for him so well in the past but this last school year our math and English (both mastery based) were struggles. He now needs regular review so I'm questioning the approach and seeking to change course if that will keep him moving forward without so much frustration. It works better for me if I can use ONE main program with each student OR have a prepared routine/schedule combining the two. If someone can help me know how to blend CLE and MM for my rising 6th grader that might help. I've been looking at Tabletclass Pre-A and Saxon (and Lial's and Dolciani …. ) for math after elementary school. I have also *gulp* been considering moving my oldest to Saxon and admittedly, it looks good to me. 

 

If your son did well with MM I think it would be better to 'stay the course' through 6th grade rather than jumping ship this late in the game.  Just supplement the areas which need more review rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.  If on the other hand he hated MM and wasn't understanding it then things would be different.  I just don't see how jumping entirely over to Saxon or CLE will be that big of a benefit right before completing primary mathematics.  

 

IMO, the biggest challenge has more to do with the idea of potentially supplementing which simply hasn't been done before.  No single math program is the end all be all for all grade levels.  As such kids sometimes need a little more help than any one can offer.  I think that would be the better solution at this point in the game rather than looking for that 'One' to be it.  Switching will most likely take some back tracking anyway.  That time could be more effectively spent with supplemental review.  Have you considered some Summer math review as a possibility?  Even a few days a week would be better than nothing IMO.

[twoxcell]

My ds has struggled with math more this year than usual too. I think it is an age thing, and 5th grade math really is much harder than previous years. I'm going to have my ds use Khan academy this summer. I hope that Singapore 6 is more of a review year like I have heard. ;)

[abrightmom]

:iagree:

 

My oldest used a MM/CLE combo all the way through. It worked for her because she is an incredibly fast worker, we skipped CLE quizzes and tests, and we were also able to skip parts of MM that were review because of CLE or skip parts of CLE that were review because of MM. We will be using a combo of CLE and AoPS next year, fwiw.

 

If MM/CLE is a combo you would like to try for your son, I think it could work well in 6th grade. A lot of 6th grade MM is review if you are using the old version (IIRC, she mentions which parts are review in the intro). I would place him according to the CLE placement test and use MM as the supplement. This could be done two ways. You could switch days between the two programs. For example, CLE on M/W/F and MM on T/Th or have him do a CLE lesson daily and meet at a separate time to work through MM together. I prefer option 2. He should be able to do CLE independently at this age, so your together time will be to stretch his brain. Skip the parts of MM that he knows and focus on weaknesses during this time. Independent review (CLE) combined with brain stretching time working side by side with me has worked very well here. HTH!

Thanks for sharing this with me. Based on what you are telling me and what Derek is sharing I see my son has new needs in math that are worth addressing. The MM/CLE hybrid is very comfortable for me and you've both given me a way to schedule it out. He did not pass the CLE placement test for 5th grade (I was shocked though I think he gave up on some parts …. with a slight push he would've been fine).

 

We have been able to work through a grade level of MM only spending 40m a day on math 4 days a week so he has a LOT of time in his schedule for math. I had already told him that 6th grade was going to mean a minimum of 60m daily on math and it may be 75. He's had it pretty easy up to now but he's had other struggles that we've had to address and keeping math to 40m helped the situation. We are doing math through summer with breaks here and there for vacation, camps and day trips. We took off 4 months last year for a move and that was the PITS for all of the kids! I'll never do that again. Summer math is a new reality. They groan. I shrug. Then they do their math. ;)

[abrightmom]

TracyP gave a good explanation her approach in combining them.  We do something similar.  

 

First, CLE is very redundant due to its spiral nature.  So it can easily be accelerated as quite a number of families do. We simply skip the first or the last LU depending on the grade as they are mostly review.  But more could be streamlined for sure.  

 

Second, MM gives way more problems than are actually needed on purpose.  Maria wants kids to have extra problems available.   This adds in flexibility.  In using MM as a spine a child could easily do every other problem and still get through all the concepts and material just fine.  So that cuts the work in half if you are not doing that already.  Then more could be trimmed if the child demonstrates mastery through testing.  At that point move ahead to the next section. 

 

We like 3-4 days with the spine followed by 1-2 with the supplement.  But it could also be broken up daily as TracyP does.  I like to have them spend more time with math than other subjects.  So 1.5 hours a day is the norm.  1 hour could be spine followed by .5 of the supplement.  Although having only 'one' curriculum is appealing for ease of use it does not always serve the child's unique needs as well.  I doubt switching to Saxon will somehow change that.  Though yes, it would be easier.

 

 

Yes, it is designed as a two year pre-A program with some consumer math and pre-geometry thrown in there.  Some folks do a variety of things including skipping a whole year.  Though I wouldn't recommend that after carefully reviewing the S&S.  CLE designed them to work together in a spiral fashion.  While some things get introduced in 700 they are not fully developed until 800.  And some Pre-A topics are left out entirely until 800.  IMO, much is missed in skipping 800 which one would get in another Pre-A program like TabletClass.  This includes The Pythagorean Theorem, Graphing linear equations on a coordinate plane, The distributive property with negative numbers and many more topics.  I would rather have a child a little over prepared than under prepared when it comes to Algebra 1.

 

 

If your son did well with MM I think it would be better to 'stay the course' through 6th grade rather than jumping ship this late in the game.  Just supplement the areas which need more review rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.  If on the other hand he hated MM and wasn't understanding it then things would be different.  I just don't see how jumping entirely over to Saxon or CLE will be that big of a benefit right before completing primary mathematics.  

 

IMO, the biggest challenge has more to do with the idea of potentially supplementing which simply hasn't done before.  No single math program is the end all be all for all grade levels.  As such kids sometimes need a little more help than any one can offer.  I think that would be the better solution at this point in the game rather than looking for that 'One' to be it.  Switching will most likely take some back tracking anyway.  That time could be more effectively spent with supplemental review.  Have you considered some Summer math review as a possibility?  Even a few days a week would be better than nothing IMO.

Derek,

 

Thank-you for taking the time to answer my questions and give me wise counsel. I'm so grateful and it is enabling me to make great decisions for my kiddos! Hope has replaced despair and worry …. 

 

As of this moment my plan is to do a MM/CLE hybrid. Based upon his sketchy placement in CLE 6 I intend to purchase 5 and 6 (my middle son will use it so it's not a waste). Using the first LU of 6 will help me to identify those areas in 5 he could or should review. I will also be able to take a look at the LUs and know where to have him jump in. I think I'll assign him straight CLE for our summer break and roll out MM in the fall. I have rarely omitted problems in MM as I have felt that my son needed the practice. There are times when something is obviously too easy for him or he absolutely gets it that we skip ahead. But that is rare. It will take a bit of practice for me to become comfy working between the two and omitting the unnecessary. My ability to judge that is suspect! :D  

 

We are doing math over summer. The kids know I'm determined and have resigned themselves to their fate  :001_tt2: . I'm a nice Mom and won't make them take their math books on vacation or to summer camp. 

[boscopup]

I'm finding that using CLE behind grade level is very helpful for my oldest. It's easy, and thus it can be done quickly. He can spend 10-15 minutes on a 500 level lesson, keeping those 5th grade skills up, while doing 30-45 minutes of AoPS Prealgebra later in the day. His total math time is reasonable, and he's getting that review to make things automatic. So don't feel like you have to use the same grade levels in CLE and MM. I think CLE 500 with MM6 might be a good combo.

[HollyDay]

Is this normal? Maybe not for every kid but for some?

 

His retention with 5th grade math is shaky. He has GREAT conceptual understanding but doesn't remember HOW to do much of the new math he learned, especially anything related to decimals or fractions. We worked thoroughly and diligently through MM 5th grade (not Geometry though) and while he understood his work at the time he doesn't remember how to do it now ….. 

 

He seems to have outgrown his "fit" with mastery math and now needs something more spiral in nature. 

 

We used LOF Fractions, Decimals, and Percents as a side road to solidify those areas.  I think math sometimes needs some time for growth and maturity.  Long division was a stumbling block for a brief time.  Then the fractions and percents.  The good news is that was our last "bogged down" period.  After that 5th grade road block, everything else flowed better.  Oldest dd just graduated high school this year and completed pre-Calculus.  Some things took longer, but it was because she needed time to work through the problem.  Not time to learn the problem if that makes sense.  I really do think there is a brain maturity that has to take place for math.  Play chess, blokus, rush hour, etc......

[Momof3littles]

We finished 5a,and simultaneously with 5b did some life of fred fractions, decimals etc if I am remembering correctly (???). Ds1 also did the lof physics and pre- algebra with bio. Fred is not my favorite, but Ds1 likes them for the most part and uses them with just help from me when he gets stuck. We are wrapping up intensive practice and some cwp 5. So I guess we went sideways a lot too.