science sequence question - how important is biology when applying to college??

[RanchGirl]

This is for a strong math student (Calculus 1 in 9th grade), so math is not holding him back in science.  He has taken (with me) general science, earth science, and physical science in 5th - 8th grade.  He disliked them all, but he put up with them and he did well on the ACT science section.  He will definitely prefer Sequence 2 as he is dreading biology (though he will suck it up if that's the better option).  I know the typical college prep plan is bio, chem and physics plus an AP science).  Part of me was thinking there is inherent value to learning about biology, but honestly I remember nothing from my own miserable biology experience, and I think he'll be exactly the same way.  So I really don't want to make him miserable for no reason.  If he skips bio will that be a negative mark should he be applying to selective colleges in a few years?  Or will the additional AP Physics class of sequence 2 be more positive?

 

Sequence 1:

 9:  Apologia Biology (at local high school homeschool tutorial place where they do classes with labs once/week, test, homework, etc.)

10:  Apologia Chemistry (same local class)

11:  AP Chemistry (ChemAdvantage)

12:  AP Physics 1 (online, possibly PA Homeschoolers)

 

Sequence 2:

 9:  Apologia Chemistry (same local class)

10:  AP Chemistry (ChemAdvantage)

11:  AP Physics 1 (online, possibly PA Homeschoolers)

12:  AP Physics 2 (online, possibly PA Homeschoolers)

 

 

 

[kiana]

Some colleges require a biological science. Some require a life science.

 

On the other hand, he could follow sequence 2, and if you get to senior year and he decides he wants to apply to a college that requires it, add biology instead of physics II.

[8filltheheart]

Are those your only options? I personally wouldn't opt for any of those paths with a student completing cal in 9th. Is is possible that he didn't like any of the sciences you taught bc they were too easy? Would he be willing to take more than 1 science at a time? Is dual enrollment an option?

 

I would consider doubling up a science with bio one yr. Our ds waited until 12th and took Thinkwell bio and didn't take a bio lab. He has so many lab sciences that one with bio, something that does not interest him at all, was unnecessary. He also opted to take multiple sciences per yr.

 

I wouldn't take physics 1 and 2, either. It is alg based physics spread over 2 yrs. If he wants an intro physics class before either physics C or dual enrolling in cal physics, condense it into one yr and then move on to cal based physics. If he is planning anything with engineering, etc AP 1&2 will not give him college credit.

[Sunshine State Sue]

I wrestled with this question.  In the end, ds took Biology at CC because it fit into our narrow window of opportunity between PS and basketball practice and had an online lab (finding a science lab between 9:30 and 12:30 was a challenge).  I am not sure about selective colleges, but I strongly suggest contacting them.

 

Does my ds really NEED biology?

[Sunshine State Sue]

If he wants an intro physics class before either physics C or dual enrolling in cal physics, condense it into one yr and then move on to cal based physics.

For a 1 year algebra based physics class, consider Derek Owens.  You may read my review here.

 

[Jen in NY]

Some thoughts... & our little family data point.....

 

My girls have/will have both taken HSChem in 9th, APBio, APChem, APPhys.

 

FWIW - APBio is nothing like it was when I took it lo those many years ago. It was much closer to a chem class than the bio I remember --- heavy on chemical cellular processes and experiment design. This guy has a great overview of the content.

 

Maybe jump right into APBio in 10th grade? Or maybe run through a basic chem class this summer and tackle APBio in 9th grade? You can always decide to have ds skip the test at the end of the year... but he would have squeezed in a bio class.

 

(I also have to admit that I have not been paying any attention at all to the APPhys changes.... my dd#2 took it this year to avoid being the first class of the new test for every single one of her sciences through high school. She'll take AP or CC Chem next year.)

 

But I do agree that a kid as advanced as your DS in math probably won't need a whole lot of algebra based phys.... definitely not 2 years! :)

 

ETA: As for colleges.... I think it's hard to tell at your ds's age what the final college outcome will be. I would check with a number of schools and then keep in mind that stated requirements are usually the minimum expectation, especially for selective schools. My dd had a particular school in mind - I was absolutely sure she would end up there - until the summer before senior year. (!) Nothing like scrambling to get those SAT II tests in before the application deadline. :oP

 

 

 

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

For what it is worth, here is what I think my two oldest will have done

 

Clemmie:  9th-Earth Science, 10th-Chemistry (Apologia w/labs), 11th-Physics (probably Apologia w/labs), 12th-some form of Biology (AP??)

Spencer: 8th-Earth Science, 9th-Physics, 10th-Biology (if Clemmie doesn't do AP) or Chemistry, 11th-Biology or Chemistry, 12th-AP Science of Choice 

 

I think the best answer would be to research a couple colleges he is likely to apply to and see what their requirements/preferences are; do take note of what his prospective major might be since that could change the answer.  For example-many of the schools Spencer is interested in have a STEM focus so he needed to have a little more beefed up program compared to Clemmie.

 

[Nan in Mass]

As prep for engineering in college, my son did natural history 1, nat hist 2, cc intro chem 1 and 2, and then senior year cc calc based physics 1 and 2 and cc intro bio 1. He also had some independent projects and some tech classes. The second year of nat hist was really more of a field studies and experiment design class. He isn't the most academic minded of students so we didn't jump straight into cc general chem but some people here have done that with no problem. Jumping straight into cc calc based physics worked fine. The bio senior year was unbelievably easy and was just to check the box.

 

Just to show you another alternative path...

 

It is possible to do something very experimental/project based the first two years and then squish all the regular sciences into 11th and 12th. It makes it tricky to schedule any sat2s or ap tests though, and if you apply to engineering school early decision in the fall, they might want to wait to accept you until the first semester physics grades come out.

 

Nan

[jhschool]

We are (were) in the same boat.

 

I was going to skip Biology altogether, as no one in my house

is interested in it.  (I used to love it when young, though, but no longer.)

 

DS wants to study Math or Science.  The Math and Science departments

are in the Humanities and Science Departments at the universities he

is interested in.

 

At least one Humanities and Science Department REQUIRES

that a student take Biology during high school.

I don't really understand why.  They don't require chemistry or physics

or anything else.  (They require 3 natural sciences, but they only require biology--

so you could take any science for your other 2.)

 

So we are stuck taking it anyway.  I would say take at least one year,

then you have not closed any doors on yourself.

[elegantlion]

Have you considered the Physics first approach? Reverse the sequence, do physics, chem, then bio. I'm doing this with ds (although at a different math level) because he has no interest in biology. I haven't decided exactly how we're going to approach biology yet. 

 

There were several discussions about this a few years ago, but I'm not awake enough to search.  :coolgleamA:

[Nan in Mass]

We are (were) in the same boat.

 

I was going to skip Biology altogether, as no one in my house

is interested in it. (I used to love it when young, though, but no longer.)

 

DS wants to study Math or Science. The Math and Science departments

are in the Humanities and Science Departments at the universities he

is interested in.

 

At least one Humanities and Science Department REQUIRES

that a student take Biology during high school.

I don't really understand why. They don't require chemistry or physics

or anything else. (They require 3 natural sciences, but they only require biology--

so you could take any science for your other 2.)

 

So we are stuck taking it anyway. I would say take at least one year,

then you have not closed any doors on yourself.

Perhaps it was lack of imagination on the part of the requirement writers, or bad defining the problem skills? Maybe they meant at least one lab science? And it just never occurred to them anyone would take any sciences other than bio first?

 

Nan

[RanchGirl]

I thought the whole AP Physics B/C/C&M was changing into Ap Physics 1 & 2?  The College Board website seems fuzzy on the changes (or it could be me that's fuzzy on this).

 

I definitely don't want to teach this child science at home as the last three years has proven that is not great for either of us, nor do I want him to double up on science since it is his second least favorite subject (behind history).  (I was hoping getting right into chemistry and physics would change that!)  He is currently leaning toward majoring somewhere in engineering/math/comp sci in college.  One of the schools he will be considering is our state flagship, where he takes math now.  Their website says a "biological science, chemistry and physics" are required for engineering.  So I guess we had better check the box for biology after all.  So right now my plan is:

 

 

 9:  Apologia Biology (local class)

10:  Apologia Chemistry (local class)

11:  AP Chemistry (ChemAdvantage)

12:  AP Physics C/CM or whatever it looks like by then, or Physics at University through PSEO.

 

Thanks everyone for helping me puzzle through this process!

[Kathy in Richmond]

I'd suggest working in a biology course sometime during high school.

 

My son, who would rank biology dead last in his science preferences, thought he could avoid it during high school. Then, before senior year, he found out that one of his college choices required it, and he had to add it to his senior year course load. It wasn't as bad as he feared; today's bio is more microbiology oriented than a study of the animal and plant kingdoms. He actually *loved* genetics. You never know till you try it! And it paid off for him in another way, too. He took the bio AP exam, earned a 5, and placed out of his college biology requirement. Totally made him happy.

 

And yes, he had a bio requirement for his EE/CompSci major in college. If he'd had to take it there, he would have appreciated having the high school intro first, since college bio moves twice as fast.

 

Here's an MIT OCW bio course that might be interesting to your son. The MIT bio course comes in three flavors to suit different students, and all three are offered on MIT OCW. They all cover the same core material; in addition they specialize: 7.012 emphasizes cell biology, immunology, neurobiology, human genetics. Eric Lander is a fantastic lecturer, too. Musicmom's son did bio this way; you might search her posts if you're interested.

 

Here's what my son did for science: (all of our science was done at home w/o outsourcing)

Grade 7 & 8: Rainbow Science
Grade 9: Spectrum Chemistry
Grade 10: algebra-based Physics (Giancoli)
Grade 11: AP Chem (Zumdahl) & AP Physics C (Halliday & Resnick)
Grade 12: AP Bio (Campbell)

My daughter did this: (same texts)

Grade 6 & 7: Rainbow Science
Grade 8: Apologia Biology
Grade 9: Spectrum Chemistry
Grade 10: AP Chemistry
Grade 11: AP Physics C
Grade 12: AP Bio

They both took the SAT II chemistry and physics tests at the end of their AP years in those sciences. (ETA: ds took SAT II physics after his 10th grade Giancoli year)

[RanchGirl]

Thanks Kathy for sharing your wisdom and experience, it is very helpful.  Especially the bio class required for your son's EE/CS major!  The MIT class looks like something my son would find interesting.  Hmmm.

[8filltheheart]

I thought the whole AP Physics B/C/C&M was changing into Ap Physics 1 & 2?

 

  He is currently leaning toward majoring somewhere in engineering/math/comp sci in college. 

 

No, it was the alg AP Physics B that was separated into 2 yrs.  (no idea why.  Definitely not a path I would suggest for a strong math student)

 

I am very confused by the interest in engineering if he hates science.  :confused1:

 

FWIW, it may not be the science he hates but the textbook.   My kids won't touch Apologia with a 10 ft pole.   I have no idea how BJU compares.  

[kiana]

I am very confused by the interest in engineering if he hates science.  :confused1:

 

Yeah ... engineering is very sciency. ??

[Kareni]

My daughter did the following sciences while in high school.

9th: Physical Science
10th: Chemistry (Lab)
11th: G 101: Earth's Dynamic Interior (Lab)
11th: G 102 Earth's Dynamic Surface (Lab)
11th: G 146: Rocks and Minerals (Lab)
12th: ENVS 181: Terrestrial Science (Lab)

We allowed her to study the sciences that interested her at the community college in 11th and 12th grades (namely Geology and Environmental Science) rather than mandating that she study the more traditional Biology in which she had no interest.

 

None of the ten colleges to which she applied specifically requested Biology though all did require at least three years of science. She was accepted at eight of those colleges and wait listed by the ninth.  Bear in mind that she went on to major in Latin rather than the hard sciences. (She did minor in Geology.)

Checking the admissions requirements at his colleges of interest is a good idea.

Regards,
Kareni

[In The Great White North]

 

 

 I personally wouldn't opt for any of those paths with a student completing cal in 9th. Is is possible that he didn't like any of the sciences you taught bc they were too easy?

 

 

I would suspect this too.  There is absolutely no need to do General Science, Physical Science, and  Physics 1 if he is doing calculus in 9th grade.  Skip right to calculus based physics (both Physics C options, in the AP scheme of things).  I would also go straight to AP Chem.  The whole reason for the "regular"class is that most students don't have the math to understand the AP class.  He does.

 

After AP Chem, he can do AP Bio  (big Campbell), which is dramatically different from back in the day.

 

 

 

 

FWIW, it may not be the science he hates but the textbook.   My kids won't touch Apologia with a 10 ft pole. 

 

:iagree:  My only student that liked Apologia was the one that was convinced she couldn't do math.

[lewelma]

There are a lot of other biology courses that are not General Biology. 

 

Look at the topical textbooks put out by Biozone and have him pick something that looks interesting.  He does not need a survey, and some kids prefer going in depth. 

 

Here are some class options I made up using these books.  Some books are shorter than others, so I some of these "courses" would use 2 books:

 

Environmental Science; and Ecology

Biotechnology and Microbiology

Cell Biology; and Biochemistry

Anatomy and Physiology

Health and Disease; and Human Biology

Evolution; and Human Evolution

 

Just another way of looking at his options.

 

Ruth in NZ