Book a Week in 2014 - BW20

[shukriyya]

Thinking more about my enjoyment of MR...partly it's the incongruity that appeals. Much of life feels this way to me and the MR books place this ambiguity at the center of things in a way that feels almost joyous, celebratory even. I'd like to be able to be so comfortable with all the grey bits, the negative space that makes up so much of life, using negative space in the photographic sense here, such that those incongruities become exalted or at the very least accommodated with ease. MR feels like a kind of a map for doing that in a way.

[Onceuponatime]

I don't understand the Hunger Games craze either. It wasn't a world I wanted to inhabit, even in my imagination. I didn't find any underlying valuable commentary on life or people  that hadn't been said better in other places.

 

Isn't all fiction world building in a sense? There are just multiple levels of departure from realistic portrayal. It may contain truths, but it is not real.

[shukriyya]

 

 

Until the last year or two I had a deep dislike of fantasy. I still wince a bit when I see fantasy covers or titles. That's not to say that I didn't have some fantasies I liked (LOTR, natch) but I tried so much bad fantasy in my youth that I still react to it. :001_rolleyes: Ah, world building. Such a divisive word in my mind. Most fantasy has too much world-building. That's right, you heard me say it first. Too many adjectives and adverbs. Too much describing the room. I'm saying that as a person who is very much into slow character development, so I don't think it's a speed thing. The problem is that most fantasy worlds are painfully obvious from the out-set. They are often very much like other fantasy worlds. They don't need so much exposition, and what differences the author creates can be revealed naturally in the story.

 

 

Fun to see how different we all are.

Yes to all of this especially that last sentence. And thank you for putting into words what I couldn't quite articulate wrt fantasy.

[LostSurprise]

So would A Tale for the Time Being be magical realism?

Elaine

 

In my opinion this book is Science Fiction rather than Magical Realism. The 'magic' is defined using science. 

 

Of course, Lit Fic conquers all. I think it's marketed Lit Fic because the narrator is using science to explain things she doesn't understand. That's part of who she is. It doesn't make the occurrence any less mysterious. I think the science explains who she is more than being there for it's own sake. 

 

 

Totally agree w/ this. I think that's why fantasy is not my favorite genre. Too many of the authors are so busy showing you their world that the story lags (imo). I include The Hobbit & LotR in that assessment too. (Ducking & running now....) 

 

 

I can see how others feel this way about LOTR. To me, it's the poster child for collective myth theory. There's something in the plot that deeply resonates with unconscious ideals of good and evil. Psychologically, it's interesting to read it to a group of children and see which children it resonates with the most. 

 

Thinking more about my enjoyment of MR...partly it's the incongruity that appeals. Much of life feels this way to me and the MR books place this ambiguity at the center of things in a way that feels almost joyous, celebratory even. I'd like to be able to be so comfortable with all the grey bits, the negative space that makes up so much of life, using negative space in the photographic sense here, such that those incongruities become exalted or at the very least accommodated with ease. MR feels like a kind of a map for doing that in a way.

 

It would be interesting to see if those who enjoy Magical Realism have a mystical bent.  ^_^

 

I don't understand the Hunger Games craze either. It wasn't a world I wanted to inhabit, even in my imagination. I didn't find any underlying valuable commentary on life or people  that hadn't been said better in other places.

 

Isn't all fiction world building in a sense? There are just multiple levels of departure from realistic portrayal. It may contain truths, but it is not real.

 

What I found most interesting about the Hunger Games was the unusual (for YA) portrayal of ambiguous romantic feelings, and perhaps even lack of feeling (whether natural or because of pressure and lack of time). DS1 and I had some interesting conversations about forced romance, how loss affects a person, being ready for a relationship, what are reasonable expectations before and during a relationship. Great conversation starter. I think there are very few YA novels that allow the lead female character to be that ambiguous about romantic feelings, and that rang very true for me. 

[Onceuponatime]

These conversations bring home the realization that reading is truly a personal experience and that another person cannot dictate what you do or do not get out of a piece of writing. There may be universal concepts to be gained from reading something in particular but that doesn't mean that everyone will internalize those concepts in the same way. Even the author has no control over what happens to his words once they enter another's mind. The most we can hope for is to find someone who "gets" our point of view, even if they don't hold it themselves.

[Lady Florida.]

Totally agree w/ this. I think that's why fantasy is not my favorite genre. Too many of the authors are so busy showing you their world that the story lags (imo). I include The Hobbit & LotR in that assessment too. (Ducking & running now....) 

 

You don't have to run from me. ;) I could never understand the love for LotR and have always found it boring. It's one of the reasons I shy away from fantasy, since it's held up as one of the standards for "good" fantasy. 

[shukriyya]

Totally agree w/ this. I think that's why fantasy is not my favorite genre. Too many of the authors are so busy showing you their world that the story lags (imo). I include The Hobbit & LotR in that assessment too. (Ducking & running now....) To me, most of the fantasy worlds I've read in books are all really quite similar. It gets rather ho-hum. I think that's why I prefer magical realism or surrealism to fantasy.

 

 

Ducking and running with you, Stacia & Kathy. I'll meet you for a coffee on the other side of the fence :lol:

 

I have not been able to enter willingly into the LOTR world or Hobbit and this despite being surrounded by my family who are thoroughly steeped in that realm. Dh and ds have read, re-read, listened to and seen the LOTR epics. I am familiar with various characters and bits and pieces of the speeches etc. And ds does the most beautiful rendition of Galadriel's haunting song with his boy-soprano voice...wish y'all could hear that. But even with all that I can't find my way in.

 

However kudos to this mama for patiently sitting through hours of explanation in order to be able to play LOTR card game which ds adores. I'm neither a gamer nor a LOTR fan..the things we do for love :001_wub:

[Pam in CT]

Fascinating conversation.

 

Third time, since 2014 began, that BAW has launched a process of reflection on my reading habits / perception / reception that I'd never considered before (#1: female v male authors / experience / universality; #2: YA genre / what are my "hot buttons" that I wish to insulate my younger children from).

 

Most of my recent forays into these lands were excursions initiated by my children (eldest led me to Harry Potter and Pullman; middle led me to Orson Scott Card and Hunger Games; youngest led me to Inkheart and more recently to the slew of dystopian trilogies).  As a kid, I went through LOTR and the Dune books and a long Madeleine L'Engle phase, but then for decades.... other than the South American authors (who can properly be thought of as a category unto themselves, I think, even though certain characteristics overlap)... I didn't go there.  

 

Until my kids wanted to.  And just as in real life, I'll go places with my kids that I wouldn't otherwise consider; and once there my criteria for what's "good" is different than if I went there by myself, or just with my husband...

 

I'm OK entering a Whole New World, like Middle Earth or Hogwarts or Cornelia Funke's, with different but internally consistent, recognizable logic.

 

Literary quality matters.  If it's YA, which most of my recent forays have been, the writing doesn't have to be stellar, but it still has to be adequate.  Rick Riordan is right at the edge of the minimally acceptable standard for me -- I launched my youngest reading aloud on his books, but after the first few books I set her off on her own.  Life is short; we only have so much reading time together, and there are too many other, better books I'd rather spend our time on.  Orson Scott Card is similarly right on the edge.  Once on a very long road trip we all, as a family, started the Pendragon series on audio... aarrrrrgggggh.  That was over the edge.  I could.not.take.it.  I think my husband and the kids actually made it, eventually, all the way through the 10 (!!!!) book series, but that was one trip I could not take with them.

 

Jenn raised one of the biggest bad-writing problems...

 

Sci-fi and fantasy authors spend quite a bit of time planning the world their characters will inhabit.  There has to be a whole logic to the world, to what the magic can and cannot do, or what the technology is and what it can do.  In bad fantasy or sci fi the authors spend far too much time explaining the world -- it should just unfold through the story.  "World building" is the catch phrase. It can be another planet or a make believe place such as Middle Earth, or it can be an alternate earth or dystopian future.  Harry Potter is our world but there JKRowling did some serious world building to create the logic of what the magic is and who can perform it and what the consequences of it are.  

 

And then another is when the established "rules," or limits, to the created-world are suddenly changed on us (as when Hermione could suddenly turn back her clock in Azkaban.  I mean, please. If you can turn back time and get a re-do, all kinds of problems can suddenly be fixed, can't they???!  Why not rewind just 15 seconds, and bring Sirius back to life?!)    When, as a reader, I come across a discontinuity like this, I am all of a sudden catapulted back into my real world to have an irate imagined argument with the author, and the created-world falls apart.

 

 

 

Magical realism seems to be more a convention in books marketed to adults (although, as I'm thinking about it, I suppose that magical realism is also what we see in the oldest fairy tales?  Dunno...).  I don't generally go there on my own without a very good reason (understanding South America is, imo, one such reason.  Many of those writers began writing under volatile regimes, in a time when journalists and political opponents regularly disappeared... magic emerged as a kind of allegorical cover... which then evolved into an enduring regional genre).

 

I think it's a hard balance to strike.. it certainly can be done well, but there is a temptation to resort to "cheap tricks"...

 

...I am neutral toward magical realism, to be good it must tell us something about the characters or story. It's best when the magic is symbolic of something or illuminates a character or characters. Not every author can balance it. Some authors (Allende for one) can do it well in one novel and then be terrible in others. Magical Realism should never be a deus ex machina or a way to jump start the story. 

 

<snip>

 

Fun to see how different we all are. 

 

I am sorry to say, 'cuz I know so many of you loved it, I thought the bolded was precisely what Night Circus did.   :leaving:

 

 

To the last part: Indeed!

 

 

And then, once again, this discussion has brought Cloud Atlas back to my mind... I know y'all must be heartily sick of me yakking on and on and on about this book, but I can't help myself: it continues to work on me in unfathomable ways... and I was trying to sort out how it should be characterized... and... well, I don't know.  There are 6 stories taking place at different points in time (distant past, past, recent past, approximate present, future, distant future).  There is no magic within any of the narratives.  But there are linkages between the narratives -- some fully and wholly realistic (the more recent protagonist reads the journal of the past one; the future protagonist watches the video produced by the present one, etc); some characters experience a vague but compelling sense of deja vu (but that really does happen, doesn't it?)... and some -- well, they seem to be reliving certain themes, like they're going to keep returning to a recurring problem or task until they finally get it right... it's not magic, per se... but it's something, ineffable and not-fully-explainable, that keeps pulling me back...

 

[Stacia]

Last night, I finished My Kind of Girl by Buddhadeva Bose, translated from the Bengali by Arunava Sinha. It was ok -- a very mild, unassuming set of stories that four men stuck in a train station share to pass the time during a long, cold night. The book was originally published in 1951 & the almost knight-like quality of putting women on a pedestal from afar is certainly reflected in the modest stories these men tell, stories prompted by them seeing a couple in love, stories they share of some type of love from their own pasts. Supposedly Bose was/is considered one of the great talents of Bengali literature, but while I thought the stories were fine, I wonder if something wasn't lost in translation just a bit? There just wasn't a spark there for me.... I had hoped to like it more than I did. In the end, I'll say it is a solid 3 star book; I'm glad to have read something by a Bengali author, the tales were mildly interesting, but there was no great pull for me.

 

I've now started Background to Danger by Eric Ambler. (Originally published as Uncommon Danger outside of the US.) Ambler was apparently a huge influence on John le Carré & Alan Furst, helping to shape the modern-day spy/thriller novel. Ambler's novels (from the 1930s & early 40s) went out of print, but were reissued by Random House's Vintage Crime/Black Lizard imprint a few years ago.

 

Kenton's career as a journalist depended on his facility with languages, his knowledge of European politics, and his quick judgment. Where his judgment sometimes failed him was in his personal life. When he finds himself on a train bound for Austria with insufficient funds after a bad night of gambling, he jumps at the chance to earn a fee to help a refugee smuggle securities across the border. He soon discovers that the documents he holds have a more than monetary value, and that European politics has more twists and turns than the most convoluted newspaper account.

 

"[A] crackerjack spy story, jammed with action. Intrigue, thrills, and super-villainy."

--The Saturday Review

On a side note, isn't it funny all the connections that pop up as you read books? Posting the link for Bose's book led me to spotting something with Bohumil Hrabal's name (who wrote I Served the King of England, a book I finished earlier this week) in the sidebar & I see that there is a talk tonight in Brooklyn by Stacey Knecht & Alex Zucker about translating a different one of Hrabal's books. Just like last week when I saw the interview w/ Rivka Galchen about her new book of short stories after having just finished her book Atmospheric Disturbances. (Crstarlette & Kim in Appalachia, don't know if you saw my note the other week, but I'll mention again that I think both of you would enjoy Atmospheric Disturbances.)

[shukriyya]

Fascinating conversation.

 

Jenn raised one of the biggest bad-writing problems...

 

Magical realism seems to be more a convention in books marketed to adults (although, as I'm thinking about it, I suppose that magical realism is also what we see in the oldest fairy tales?  Dunno...).  I don't generally go there on my own without a very good reason (understanding South America is, imo, one such reason.  Many of those writers began writing under volatile regimes, in a time when journalists and political opponents regularly disappeared... magic emerged as a kind of allegorical cover... which then evolved into an enduring regional genre).

 

I think it's a hard balance to strike.. it certainly can be done well, but there is a temptation to resort to "cheap tricks"...

 

I am sorry to say, 'cuz I know so many of you loved it, I thought the bolded was precisely what Night Circus did.   :leaving:

 

 

Heresy! And I would totally disagree on MR being a convention marketed to adults. But isn't it so awesomely fantastic that we can have such wildly divergent opinions and experiences with the exact same material! God has a very refined sense of curiosity or else we're players in a kind of Divine magical realism novel ourselves :lol:

[LostSurprise]

I can't see Night Circus as Magical Realism. The magic is too ingrained in the story. It doesn't arrive suddenly or from the outside. It's always there. I'd classify it as Fantasy. 

[Stacia]

Pam, I'm right there with you in extolling the virtues of Cloud Atlas (both the book and the movie). Loved it, loved the connections through people, through time. Just wonderful. I don't reread often, but this is one I do plan to reread, just to savor & notice even more of the connections.....

 

I also agree that magical realism seems so a part of the Latin American experience (though not limited to just that geographic area). When I read the non-fiction book Waiting for Snow in Havana, it too had a magical realism quality to it, even though Eire was just describing his childhood in Cuba.

 

As always, this is a fun discussion. I find it amusing that everyone wants magical realism to be used 'properly' when I think the fact of it being magical realism exempts it from being 'proper', giving it the freedom to do what it wants in the story -- perhaps serving a purpose, perhaps not. I don't mind how it is used in a story, even if it is to boldly manipulate things in a non-sensical way, but then again, I like surrealism too. I guess I just like wild, weird, unexplained happenings sometimes w/out everything fitting neatly into a box or for a purpose. Does this reflect why I consider myself agnostic? Because I am ok with the unknown/unknowable & unexplained/unexplainable?

[LostSurprise]

And Pam*, there is a fatalistic/deterministic edge to Cloud Atlas that keeps me from loving it. Perhaps you're drawn to that so Pollyanna-vague Night Circus gets to you.  ;)  :D

 

*Edited to change Jenn to Pam.

[Stacia]

I can't see Night Circus as Magical Realism. The magic is too ingrained in the story. It doesn't arrive suddenly or from the outside. It's always there. I'd classify it as Fantasy. 

 

See, I would argue more for it being in the magical realism category.

 

First, there is a circus. A magic act is a common thing to find in a circus or carnival. So, to me, that part is like reality. There are circuses filled with performers, including magicians, & they travel from place to place.

 

The fact that some magical/mystical things happen, but that these things seem normal to the main characters & they take it in stride as ordinary, are what makes this seem like magical realism to me (vs. fantasy, which to me, is a completely made-up world that would not/could not exist in our reality).

[Stacia]

I guess I think of magical realism like Mayhem (a character). Sometimes there's a purpose or meaning or beauty behind the mayhem; other times, mayhem in & of itself *is* the purpose, nothing more.

 

And on a complete sidebar now, mentioning Mayhem as a character makes me think of:

 

http://youtu.be/Wft1lfsfhC0

 

:lol:  (Best commercials ever!)

 

 

[LostSurprise]

Would the Night Circus exist in our reality? I don't find the other parts of the novel to be particularly realistic. It reads more as a parallel dreamworld which is similar to ours but completely lacks any of the normal geo-political-culture markers. Even the time period is so vague that it incorporates anachronistic elements. 

 

You like MR so much Stacia, that I think any fantasy you like is probably MR to you.  ;) Which is fine. MR is defined pretty broadly, and yet the more broadly we define it, the more like fantasy it becomes. As if we scorn fantasy enough that we define it only as sword and sorcery stuff and not modern stories with elements of magic. I wonder if fear of fantasy has any bearing on the emergence of MR? 

[Pam in CT]

And Jenn, there is a fatalistic/deterministic edge to Cloud Atlas that keeps me from loving it. Perhaps you're drawn to that so Pollyanna-vague Night Circus gets to you.  ;)  :D

 

 

Pollyanna?  and Night Circus?  in the same phrase???!!

 

:svengo:

 

 

(Spoilers ahead....)

 

 

There are two immensely powerful magical puppeteers. 

 

For their own entertainment, and no other reason whatsoever (no Voldemort- or Sauron-aspirations about taking over and remaking the world, here: it's just the Truman Show) they set up competitions to see whose methodology is more powerful.

 

They insert blameless innocents as their central puppets.  They manipulate, torture, and otherwise abuse their protegees into learning the magic according to their respective methodologies.

 

Then they throw them into the ring.

 

Countless other people's lives are ruined or lost in the process.

 

Once one of the puppets gives up in despair and guilt towards the people whose lives they are inadvertently ruining, the puppeteers cast around for their next set of puppets.

 

 

 

 

Did I miss the Pollyanna part of the narrative?  LOL

 

 

 

eta to warn re: spoilers.  Sorry! I got a bit too passionate, there...

[Stacia]

Would the Night Circus exist in our reality? I don't find the other parts of the novel to be particularly realistic. It reads more as a parallel dreamworld which is similar to ours but completely lacks any of the normal geo-political-culture markers. Even the time period is so vague that it incorporates anachronistic elements. 

 

You like MR so much Stacia, that I think any fantasy you like is probably MR to you.  ;) Which is fine. MR is defined pretty broadly, and yet the more broadly we define it, the more like fantasy it becomes. As if we scorn fantasy enough that we define it only as sword and sorcery stuff and not modern stories with elements of magic. I wonder if fear of fantasy has any bearing on the emergence of MR? 

 

Would the Night Circus exist in our reality? Probably not. Still, it's not set in 'another' world either; it's in this one.

 

LOL about my MR obsession to the exclusion of fantasy. Not entirely true, though. I love Terry Pratchett, the little Neil Gaiman I've read, & Kevin Hearne's books too, all of which (imo) fall squarely & completely in the fantasy genre. HP too (even though I've only read the first book) & Percy Jackson -- very fun books. I would classify none of those as being magical realism. There's other fantasy I've read that I didn't particularly like (Tolkien's works stand out most here, but there have been others too) &, again, would never lump them in the MR category.

 

[shukriyya]

I can't see Night Circus as Magical Realism. The magic is too ingrained in the story. It doesn't arrive suddenly or from the outside. It's always there. I'd classify it as Fantasy. 

 

 

Would the Night Circus exist in our reality? I don't find the other parts of the novel to be particularly realistic. It reads more as a parallel dreamworld which is similar to ours but completely lacks any of the normal geo-political-culture markers. Even the time period is so vague that it incorporates anachronistic elements. 

 

You like MR so much Stacia, that I think any fantasy you like is probably MR to you.  ;) Which is fine. MR is defined pretty broadly, and yet the more broadly we define it, the more like fantasy it becomes. As if we scorn fantasy enough that we define it only as sword and sorcery stuff and not modern stories with elements of magic. I wonder if fear of fantasy has any bearing on the emergence of MR? 

 

Disagree. I find TNC to be a fascinating exploration of the interpenetration of the explainable and the mystery, of the ambiguous and the quantifiable. This is life, this is the texture of our inner landscape, this is what dreams us awake in the middle of the night, filling the atmosphere with the question, how/why or else no question at all simply a ! as we lie there in the dark blinking and straddling the line between dream and wakefulness, between known and not-yet asked, between revealed and oblique.

 

Pollyanna?  and Night Circus?  in the same phrase???!!

 

:svengo:

 

There are two immensely powerful magical puppeteers. 

 

For their own entertainment, and no other reason whatsoever (no Voldemort- or Sauron-aspirations about taking over and remaking the world, here: it's just the Truman Show) they set up competitions to see whose methodology is more powerful.

 

They insert blameless innocents as their central puppets.  They manipulate, torture, and otherwise abuse their protegees into learning the magic according to their respective methodologies.

 

Then they throw them into the ring.

 

Countless other people's lives are ruined or lost in the process.

 

Once one of the puppets gives up in despair and guilt towards the people whose lives they are inadvertently ruining, the puppeteers cast around for their next set of puppets.

 

 

 

 

Did I miss the Pollyanna part of the narrative?  LOL

So cool, Pam, what you bring to the story. Loving all this discussion.

[Pam in CT]

.....As always, this is a fun discussion. I find it amusing that everyone wants magical realism to be used 'properly' when I think the fact of it being magical realism exempts it from being 'proper', giving it the freedom to do what it wants in the story -- perhaps serving a purpose, perhaps not. I don't mind how it is used in a story, even if it is to boldly manipulate things in a non-sensical way, but then again, I like surrealism too. I guess I just like wild, weird, unexplained happenings sometimes w/out everything fitting neatly into a box or for a purpose. Does this reflect why I consider myself agnostic? Because I am ok with the unknown/unknowable & unexplained/unexplainable?

 

Yes, sometimes the categories / boxes are helpful, both as communication shorthand and in clarifying our own responses; and sometimes... not.  I'd be hard pressed to define a bright line between "magical realism" and "surrealism," nor would my line, were I able to draw one, likely be remotely helpful to anyone else...

 

(Personally, and despite -- or maybe because of, perhaps -- both my relative comfort with the unknown / unknowable and my compulsive reading of the Ask A... threads of last week, I find a lot of belief-based categories to be not-helpful!!   :laugh: )

[JennW in SoCal]

And Jenn, there is a fatalistic/deterministic edge to Cloud Atlas that keeps me from loving it. Perhaps you're drawn to that so Pollyanna-vague Night Circus gets to you.  ;)  :D

 

Perhaps you were directing this to Pam and not me?!  

 

I could not stand the Cloud Atlas movie which surprised me because I like fantasy/sci-fi/magic/surreal/not-logical genres. I am reluctant to try the book because I disliked the movie so very much!

 

I wouldn't say that any book that has fantastical elements must either be fantasy/sci-fi or magical realism.  And I think of magical realism as being South America-specific, not just any book with fantastic elements.  Of course not every book has to fall into a genre, and there is a deep and wide grey area in between genres.  Night Circus is in that grey area, though I'd argue it is fantasy.  The book I just finished, Strange Bodies, is definitely sci-fi, but it is so literary in its prose that it is not marketed as such.  My favorite local independent bookstore that specializes in sci-fi and fantasy doesn't carry it, for instance, nor did they have Night Circus.  

 

I can get disliking LOTR because the world building aspect of it is so dominant.  But the Hobbit is a nice adventure tale -- what's not to like?  It really is There and Back Again.  The Hobbit movies are a massive disappointment for this fan, however.  I loved the LOTR movies, some of my favorite actors are in The Hobbit.  But it leaves me cold and annoyed that it is such a bloated mess.

 

If anyone wants to try an excellent sci fi title, just to dip their toe into the genre, I highly recommend Hyperion by Dan Simmons. The world building is effortlessly done within the Canterbury Tale style plot.  And, it has, hands down, the best ending of any book I've ever read!

[LostSurprise]

Pollyanna?  and Night Circus?  in the same phrase???!!

 

 

Did I miss the Pollyanna part of the narrative?  LOL

 

Did everyone read it as a downer? 

 

**SPOILERS**

 

Of course those things happened. They are the nightmare portion of the dream-logic which powers the story with it's uncertainty. However, the majority of the story was taken up with the inspirational work of creation within the circus (the inspiration of art to other people, the way it takes them singly or in groups). The contest was mostly a contest of creative will, until the two proponents fell in love enough that the contest itself had no meaning. And there were consequences for that, every decision has consequences...but for every ruin or loss there is the balance of connection and gain. It was a beautiful story about art, love, connection, loss, and the use of competition within creation.

 

If anything, I thought it was rather light-hearted, thus the Pollyanna quote. It could have been much, much darker. The role of the evil masterminds was limited (rather like ambitious gods playing with the humans) and the role of the beauty of art and creation was so exalted. 

 

Would the Night Circus exist in our reality? Probably not. Still, it's not set in 'another' world either; it's in this one.

 

 

This is where we will have to agree to disagree. To me, this is no more 'our' world than Neil Gaimin's Neverwhere or Rowling's Potter series. 

[Lady Florida.]

This is such an interesting conversation. I'm only minimally participting because I don't have much experience with the genres being discussed. However, listening to all of you who normally read this stuff is helping me understand why I like some fantasy/MR/sci-fi (though not so much the latter) and not others.

[LostSurprise]

Perhaps you were directing this to Pam and not me?!  

 

 

 

Yes, sorry Jenn. Fast conversation.

[Onceuponatime]

I absolutely adore The Hobbit and have read it 6 or 7 times, The Lord of the Rings only once

 

Stacia wasn't it you who also liked The City of Dreaming Books? It is one of my favorite reads from the last 10 years. The only reason I picked up the book was because of the book theme, but I ended up loving it. The same with The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde. I like Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, Arthur C. Clarke, and Connie Willis, but I will not read most modern science fiction.  I never deliberately set out to read books classified as fantasy, some other aspect usually pulls me in. I never go to the fantasy section in book stores. However, much of the fiction I read has mystical elements.

 

I like some Neil Gaiman, but not all. I read the first Percy Jackson and wasn't interested in going any further. I read all of Cornelia Funke and intend to try Terry Pratchett. Cloud Altas is on my list. I've never even heard of some of the other fantasy authors mentioned.

 

Really, there isn't any "I don't like or will never read" genre, just an undefinable leaning in certain directions. One big selling point for me is being able to identify with the main character through the whole story.

 

 

[shukriyya]

Okay, here's one of my favorite speeches from one of the 'reviled puppeteers' as Pam describes them...

 

"Magic," the man in the grey suit repeats, turning the word into a laugh. "This is not magic. This is the way the world is, only very few people take the time to stop and note it. Look around you," he says, waving a hand at the surrounding tables. "Not a one of them has even an inkling of the things that are possible in this world, and what's worse is that none of them would listen if you attempted to enlighten them. They want to believe that magic is nothing but clever deception, because to think it real would keep them up at night, afraid of their own existence"

 

Now to me this points to the intoxicating and sobering truth of the world we inhabit.

[Pam in CT]

Re: Night Circus:

Did everyone read it as a downer? 

 

 

 

 

Of course those things happened. They are the nightmare portion of the dream-logic which powers the story with it's uncertainty. However, the majority of the story was taken up with the inspirational work of creation within the circus (the inspiration of art to other people, the way it takes them singly or in groups). The contest was mostly a contest of creative will, until the two proponents fell in love enough that the contest itself had no meaning. And there were consequences for that, every decision has consequences...but for every ruin or loss there is the balance of connection and gain. It was a beautiful story about art, love, connection, loss, and the use of competition within creation.

 

If anything, I thought it was rather light-hearted, thus the Pollyanna quote. It could have been much, much darker. The role of the evil masterminds was limited (rather like ambitious gods playing with the humans) and the role of the beauty of art and creation was so exalted. 

 

Nah, I think it was only me who read it as a downer; I just talk a lot...  :huh:

 

 

It was precisely because the role of the evil master minds was... not limited -- they framed the entire environment in which all that creation and art and beauty and mystery took place -- but unquestioned, even when multiple characters worked out the Big Picture and could have come together to overcome it... that troubled me.  

 

Once you work out that you're living inside the Truman Show, or the Capitol arena, or inside the divergent gates, for the sole purpose of other people's entertainment... well.  It's time to storm the gates.  Designing a gown, however exquisite, won't cut it.

 

[Jane in NC]

Totally agree w/ this. I think that's why fantasy is not my favorite genre. Too many of the authors are so busy showing you their world that the story lags (imo). I include The Hobbit & LotR in that assessment too. (Ducking & running now....) To me, most of the fantasy worlds I've read in books are all really quite similar. It gets rather ho-hum. I think that's why I prefer magical realism or surrealism to fantasy.

 

 

Joining the non-Tolkien crowd for an iced coffee. 

 

I must admit that I struggled as a high school student to read The Hobbit so I never jumped on the LoTR bandwagon. I did accompany The Boys to all of the movies of the former.  My usual assessment of the films was "Great music!" 

 

I don't understand the Hunger Games craze either. It wasn't a world I wanted to inhabit, even in my imagination. I didn't find any underlying valuable commentary on life or people  that hadn't been said better in other places.

 

Isn't all fiction world building in a sense? There are just multiple levels of departure from realistic portrayal. It may contain truths, but it is not real.

Your last statement echoes what Michael Chabon has had to say about genre categorization.  In an interview with Terry Pratchett, it was noted: 

 

He describes himself as a man "who wears a leather jacket and says he writes fantasy and who believes he owes a debt to the science fiction/fantasy genre which he grew up out of, refuses to say he writes "magical realism" -- which is like a polite way of saying you write fantasy and is more acceptable to certain people -- and who, on the whole doesn't care that much. It's all stuff."

 

And then another is when the established "rules," or limits, to the created-world are suddenly changed on us (as when Hermione could suddenly turn back her clock in Azkaban.  I mean, please. If you can turn back time and get a re-do, all kinds of problems can suddenly be fixed, can't they???!  Why not rewind just 15 seconds, and bring Sirius back to life?!)    When, as a reader, I come across a discontinuity like this, I am all of a sudden catapulted back into my real world to have an irate imagined argument with the author, and the created-world falls apart.

 

 

My husband, a serious fan of the fantasy genre, despises the cheap trick of turning back the clock.  He and I both felt that Azkaban was the weakest HP for that very reason.

 

We had the pleasure of meeting Paul Lehr who made a living doing covers for sci fi books back in the day when Heinleins and Asimovs were moving from hard cover to paperbacks.  It was interesting to talk to him about how he needed to generate a certain mood which is probably representative of the time ('60's and '70's), when people wondered about space travel, their place in the scheme of things and whether the social morays of the past remained relevant.  I was one of many young people who felt profoundly moved by Stranger in a Strange Land. It seems that modern sci-fi has moved into the role of the human in the universe of machines--or maybe that it just the cyber guys like William Gibson whom my husband likes. Often when I tell my husband about a good story that I have read, he'll hand me a volume of sci-fi or fantasy off his shelf saying that the themes are similar.  Why is it so difficult for me to fall into these alternative worlds?

 

[Jane in NC]

One more note:  I love Eric Ambler's books and am so glad that they are being reissued and appreciated.

[LostSurprise]

In view of our morning conversation I found this interesting. 

 

A Tor article which discusses Fantasy and Magical Realism as a continuum with MR on the Surreal Fantasy end and Systematic Fantasy on the other.

 

 

Question: 

Is Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" a possible example of Magical Realism? 

[Jane in NC]

 

Question: 

Is Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" a possible example of Magical Realism? 

Which is the question I was asking myself about the lesser known Polish writer Bruno Schulz (who also won an award for his translation in Polish of The Trial.)

 

Kafka and Schulz predate the South American writers who seem to be the founding fathers of MR.

[Onceuponatime]

In view of our morning conversation I found this interesting. 

 

A Tor article which discusses Fantasy and Magical Realism as a continuum with MR on the Surreal Fantasy end and Systematic Fantasy on the other.

 

 

 Great article; it explains a lot. I find myself just to the right of center. I like it there. :p

 

I am redeemed though: " I have no interest in arguing classifications: all fiction is fantasy, it’s just a matter of degree."

 

In the comments, he says there are  3 kinds of fantasy, Fantasy 1- all fiction, Fantasy 2- fiction with magic, Fantasy 3- most books in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy category. Magical realism is part of the Fantasy 2 spectrum, which can also include elements from the Fantasy 3. Clear as mud?

[Stacia]

Of course not every book has to fall into a genre, and there is a deep and wide grey area in between genres.  Night Circus is in that grey area, though I'd argue it is fantasy.

 

<snip...>

 

I can get disliking LOTR because the world building aspect of it is so dominant.  But the Hobbit is a nice adventure tale -- what's not to like?  It really is There and Back Again. 

 

Re: books not having to fall into a genre -- yes! Definitely. And, many times, I have a hard time figuring out what genre they're supposed to be. Years ago when I read The Sparrow, I loved it & just considered it fiction until someone said it was sci-fi (which I never even really thought about).

 

The Hobbit is boring to me because of the repetitive style of each chapter. Something BIG happens in each one & then is resolved, only for something BIG to happen in the next one, & on & on until the end. Oh, it's goblins! Oh, it's Gollum! Oh, it's Wargs! Oh, it's spiders! Yada. Yada. I know this is the style of many adventure books, but it's just so formulaic (in writing style) that I found it boring. I read it only as an adult, though, never when I was a kid. Perhaps if I had first encountered it when I was younger, I might have enjoyed it more?

 

Did everyone read it as a downer? 

 

Re: The Night Circus... no, I didn't read it as a downer. In fact, I didn't think of it that way at all.

 

Stacia wasn't it you who also liked The City of Dreaming Books? It is one of my favorite read from the last 10 years. The only reason I picked up the book was because of the book theme, but I ended up loving it. The same with The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde.

 

Yep, I loved The City of Dreaming Books. I also loved Moers' The 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear. Both of these books are fantasy.

 

Loved The Eyre Affair too.

 

Now to me this points to the intoxicating and sobering truth of the world we inhabit.

 

Yes!

 

Joining the non-Tolkien crowd for an iced coffee. 

 

I must admit that I struggled as a high school student to read The Hobbit so I never jumped on the LoTR bandwagon. I did accompany The Boys to all of the movies of the former.  My usual assessment of the films was "Great music!"

 

LotR as a book series -- one of the most horrendously depressing set of books I've ever tried to read. Just.So.Dark.And.Utterly.Depressing. Three whole, very long books of that? Too much. Not my cup of coffee OR tea.

 

:lol:  My assessment of the movies: the Orcs are so gross & disgusting that I almost walked out of the movie. (However, since I've got an eye candy thing, I decided to sit back & enjoy watching Aragorn instead. ;) :D  He made up for the Orcs.)

 

 

One more note:  I love Eric Ambler's books and am so glad that they are being reissued and appreciated.

 

:coolgleamA:

[Stacia]

A Tor article which discusses Fantasy and Magical Realism as a continuum with MR on the Surreal Fantasy end and Systematic Fantasy on the other.

 

Great article.

 

Admittedly, I adore stuff on the left side of the described spectrum much more than stuff in the middle or on the right side. But, I've read plenty all along the spectrum (including some of Steven Brust's fantasy books) & have enjoyed a wide variety. No surprise as I usually enjoy fiction much more than non-fiction.

 

I think the author of the article hits an interesting point that MR is highlighting the chaos, discomfort, & horror in the real world.

 

[Stacia]

Oh, and I don't think of magical realism as belonging only to Latin America.

 

However, there is a very specific style of magical realism that seems to be very prevalent amongst Latin American works (in fiction & sometimes even in non-fiction from the region). Magical realism that I've read from other places still has many of the same elements, but a completely different style.

[Pam in CT]

This is turning out to be almost as absorbing as the Ask A... threads!!!

 

 

 

I wouldn't say that any book that has fantastical elements must either be fantasy/sci-fi or magical realism.  And I think of magical realism as being South America-specific, not just any book with fantastic elements.  Of course not every book has to fall into a genre, and there is a deep and wide grey area in between genres.  Night Circus is in that grey area, though I'd argue it is fantasy.  The book I just finished, Strange Bodies, is definitely sci-fi, but it is so literary in its prose that it is not marketed as such.  My favorite local independent bookstore that specializes in sci-fi and fantasy doesn't carry it, for instance, nor did they have Night Circus.  

 

<snip>

 

If anyone wants to try an excellent sci fi title, just to dip their toe into the genre, I highly recommend Hyperion by Dan Simmons. The world building is effortlessly done within the Canterbury Tale style plot.  And, it has, hands down, the best ending of any book I've ever read!

OK, and sci-fi is a whole 'nuther thing, into which I have hardly ever dipped so much as a toe.  The Dunes, as a kid; and the Enders, as a parent; and that's just about it.  I just put Hyperion into my library Kindle WL and will see if it rocks my world...

 

 

 

Really, there isn't any "I don't like or will never read" genre, just an undefinable leaning in certain directions. One big selling point for me is being able to identify with the main character through the whole story.

 

There's no "I'll never read" genre for me either -- I'm pretty omnivorous -- and a really strong protagonist with whom I identify, in a well constructed story, will carry me through just about any setting.  The storyline matters very much, though.  My difficulties with Night Circus weren't about the magic: they were about the narrative itself, particularly towards the end. 

 

 

 

We had the pleasure of meeting Paul Lehr who made a living doing covers for sci fi books back in the day when Heinleins and Asimovs were moving from hard cover to paperbacks.  It was interesting to talk to him about how he needed to generate a certain mood which is probably representative of the time ('60's and '70's), when people wondered about space travel, their place in the scheme of things and whether the social morays of the past remained relevant.  I was one of many young people who felt profoundly moved by Stranger in a Strange Land. It seems that modern sci-fi has moved into the role of the human in the universe of machines--or maybe that it just the cyber guys like William Gibson whom my husband likes. Often when I tell my husband about a good story that I have read, he'll hand me a volume of sci-fi or fantasy off his shelf saying that the themes are similar.  Why is it so difficult for me to fall into these alternative worlds?

 

Yes, the idea that the focus of concern in science fiction moves in tandem with the anxieties of the current times is interesting.  With dystopian fiction too, I suppose.  (One of the greatest strengths of Hunger Games, imo, is that it draws such a relentless straight line between our current preoccupation with reality TV shows like Survivor v. the Roman gladiator games; and between our over-the-top consumerism v. the plight of the out-of-sight human beings who work to produce the goods we consume.  We've had some intriguing conversations around the dinner table riffing off this.)

 

 

In view of our morning conversation I found this interesting. 

 

A Tor article which discusses Fantasy and Magical Realism as a continuum with MR on the Surreal Fantasy end and Systematic Fantasy on the other.

 

 

Question: 

Is Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" a possible example of Magical Realism? 

 

Very interesting article.  The part most helpful to me in sorting my own thoughts between what he's calling "systematic" fantasy (which -- he's not writing here about YA, but I think would include HP, Inkheart, Pullman, which have systematic Whole New Worlds) and "surreal" fantasy (the SA writers and others alluded to below, where the magic looms up chaotically and arbitrarily) was:

 

 

"Consider their pedigrees. Systematic fantasy tends to come from Western writers, who live in nations where “peace, order, and good government†(to use that wonderful Canadian phrase) more or less rule. Oh, there are wars and depressions and tragedies, but by and large, the phones work, the roads are smooth, and you’re not likely to be massacred without warning.

Surreal fantasy comes from more troubled lands. Midnight’s Children is set in post-partition India; The Famished Road in Nigeria; One Hundred Years of Solitude in Colombia. Their magic is random, surreal and arbitrary because their worlds are random, surreal and arbitrary."

An interesting distinction, and one which would make Hurakami, writing from a supremely orderly world in which the trains surely do run on time, an outlier...

 

 

re: Kafka - MR or Fantasy?

Which is the question I was asking myself about the lesser known Polish writer Bruno Schulz (who also won an award for his translation in Polish of The Trial.)

 

Kafka and Schulz predate the South American writers who seem to be the founding fathers of MR.

Well, if we go with the idea in the article, Kafka's pedigree was in an arbitrary and random world, in which he needed an allusive cover in order to get away with his themes... which would point MR, even if the term wasn't yet in use...

 

 

 

(I  :001_wub: these threads...)

[shukriyya]

In view of our morning conversation I found this interesting. 

 

A Tor article which discusses Fantasy and Magical Realism as a continuum with MR on the Surreal Fantasy end and Systematic Fantasy on the other.

 

 

Question: 

Is Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" a possible example of Magical Realism? 

 

Great article, LS. I was intrigued to note that Patricia McKillip whose book The Alphabet of Thorn intrigued me enough to put it near the top of my tbr list falls smack in the center of the spectrum. We'll see how I get on with it.

 

 

The Hobbit is boring to me because of the repetitive style of each chapter. Something BIG happens in each one & then is resolved, only for something BIG to happen in the next one, & on & on until the end. Oh, it's goblins! Oh, it's Gollum! Oh, it's Wargs! Oh, it's spiders! Yada. Yada.

 

:lol:  My assessment of the movies: the Orcs are so gross & disgusting that I almost walked out of the movie. (However, since I've got an eye candy thing, I decided to sit back & enjoy watching Aragorn instead. ;) :D  He made up for the Orcs.)

 

 

 

:lol: :smilielol5:

 

 

Re: The Night Circus... no, I didn't read it as a downer. In fact, I didn't think of it that way at all.

 

 

 

Me neither, in fact, the contrary. I was moved by how the characters took the complexities they were dealt and found an altar on which to place some very noble qualities and in the process creating a beautiful context for the trajectory of their lives.

.

 

There's no "I'll never read" genre for me either -- I'm pretty omnivorous -- and a really strong protagonist with whom I identify, in a well constructed story, will carry me through just about any setting.  The storyline matters very much, though.  My difficulties with Night Circus weren't about the magic: they were about the narrative itself, particularly towards the end. 

 

 

Details please :D

[Pam in CT]

Re: Night Circus

 

Details please :D

 

Aw, I can't do details; I'm already feeling terrible about my spoilers above.  People who do spoilers are The Worst.

 

So, 20,000 foot critique (which STILL has spoilers if you're in the middle of the story):  

 

They were thrown into a game that they came to recognize as monstrous.  They had a team.  The team had bench strength.  They could have permanently closed down the game.  They opted merely to hand off the baton, instead.

 

 

 

(It's as if Katniss had made the other choice, in her final scene; and in so doing had cued up a whole different future.  That would have been terrible.)

 

[Stacia]

As always, based on the conversations here, I started poking around various book lists & found a nice list of 10 Great Magical Books for Adults. These may fall anywhere in the magical realism to fantasy to just plain fiction categories, I think. Fun list.

 

I've read four of them (The Master and Margarita; Mr. Fox; One Hundred Years of Solitude; The House of the Spirits), made it partway through another one (The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle), & have read parts of The Tempest (but have never read the whole thing). Like the looks of the others on the list too. I'm drooling over Aurorarama & may have to buy that one as neither of my library systems seems to carry it. I can't resist a description like this:

The National described this novel as “what Jules Verne would write if woken from the dead and offered a dose of mushrooms,†which may even be understating the point a bit. Set in the alternative-reality Arctic city of New Venice, an unexplained airship looming in the sky above, the novel blends magic, allegory surreal adventures, and women who won’t stay dead to whip up a lush phantasmagoria of literary delight.

[Stacia]

Ok, I was totally frivolous & called up my little local bookstore to order Aurorarama. :thumbup1:

[Onceuponatime]

The only one of the 10 I've read is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell. I've got Like Water for Chocolate on my nightstand.

[Pam in CT]

As always, based on the conversations here, I started poking around various book lists & found a nice list of 10 Great Magical Books for Adults. These may fall anywhere in the magical realism to fantasy to just plain fiction categories, I think. Fun list.

 

I've read four of them (The Master and Margarita; Mr. Fox; One Hundred Years of Solitude; The House of the Spirits), made it partway through another one (The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle), & have read parts of The Tempest (but have never read the whole thing). Like the looks of the others on the list too. I'm drooling over Aurorarama & may have to buy that one as neither of my library systems seems to carry it. I can't resist a description like this:

 

 

Even the cover is pretty...

 

 

:laugh:

 

What'd you think of Master and Margarita?  I do love a book that makes me laugh...

 

I was sort of surprised, given that I don't seek out MR, that I'd read 6 of the list - Coville's Tempest, the three Latin Americans, Midnight's Children, and -- thanks to BAW -- Wind Up Bird Chronicles.  Respected all of them, and "enjoyed" all but WUBC.  (I'm starting to wonder about the word "enjoy," wrt books that have a creepy or uncomfortable component... you ladies make me think too much.)

 

And since we've been on this thread, Mr. Fox came up on my kindle account!

 

 

eta to change "think to much" to "think too much", because... well...

[Stacia]

I loved The Master and Margarita, though I'm probably ignorant enough of Russian politics to not fully grasp all of the references made in this book. For those that are doing religious-based readings, there is also a concurrent storyline in there re: Pontius Pilate. There were a few humorous parts, but I wouldn't call it a book that made me laugh. It was smart & fascinating & riveting. There was a sly, satirical humor. But, funny? No, not really. It is the type of book that you could easily do for an entire semester university course.

 

Hope you love Mr. Fox. It's one of my favorites. There are some disturbing themes addressed, but it's entirely charming & clever. Highly recommended.

[shukriyya]

As always, based on the conversations here, I started poking around various book lists & found a nice list of 10 Great Magical Books for Adults. These may fall anywhere in the magical realism to fantasy to just plain fiction categories, I think. Fun list.

 

 

:laugh:

 

I did the same thing on GR and got a sprawling list though nothing grabbed me right away.

 

Just finished The Invention of Wings by Sue Monk Kidd. Was it someone else on this thread who mentioned that the kindle format had them reading the author notes in order for the book to read as finished? That's what I ended up doing too and it turns out the story was based on the lives of two early abolitionist-feminists, extremely outspoken articulate women. It was a good story and held my interest. For every one of those kinds of books there are half a dozen misses. Unlike some of you wonderful women on this thread my aperture is still fairly narrow and I don't have the patience to sit with a story/characters/writing I don't like. My failing as I know I'm missing out on a lot. But still I'm 25 books ahead of where I was last year at this time :hurray:

 

[shukriyya]

And what next? Anna Quindlen's, Still Life With Breadcrumbs escaped my lens and will 'expire' thanks to overdrive. Since the wait list was 100+ to begin with I won't be seeing it again anytime soon. I've got The Virgin Cure on my stack and I've also got those three books by Helen Dunmore, thanks to Pam. The one that most intrigues me is A Spell of Winter though The Seige, which was the original impetus from Pam, is also in the pile. I think after making my way through those it's time for some hunkering down with my 5/5/5 list.

[JennW in SoCal]

Hey friends,

 

There are currently 5 wildfires in my area, 30 homes destroyed so far.  We are safe, not in the path of any of the current blazes, but I ask for uplifting prayers and good thoughts for the firefighters on the front lines as well as for all those families affected.  The firefighters did a heroic job yesterday in knocking down a 1500 acre fire that caused some friends to evacuate, but today is a nightmare.  100 degrees, 5% humidity and strong winds.  I HATE fire weather.

 

 

[mumto2]

Wow,  that's all I can say.  I go on a picnic, do some gardening, check in and there are 50 or so fresh posts and a fascinating discussion.  Just read through it all during the last hour or so.  Requested several books. ;)  I am rather in awe of the conversation that has taken place.  No real deserving comments. 

 

Pam, I think we read the same version of Night Circus.  I was very appreciative of your summary.  I went back and looked it over once trying to figure out what I was missing and I still walked away with your basic summary.  Sort of relieved someone else read it the same. ;)

 

[Stacia]

:grouphug: , Jenn & keeping CA folks in my thoughts...

[mumto2]

Hey friends,

 

There are currently 5 wildfires in my area, 30 homes destroyed so far.  We are safe, not in the path of any of the current blazes, but I ask for uplifting prayers and good thoughts for the firefighters on the front lines as well as for all those families affected.  The firefighters did a heroic job yesterday in knocking down a 1500 acre fire that caused some friends to evacuate, but today is a nightmare.  100 degrees, 5% humidity and strong winds.  I HATE fire weather.

:grouphug: I am praying that everyone stays safe.  

[Rosie_0801]

Totally agree w/ this. I think that's why fantasy is not my favorite genre. Too many of the authors are so busy showing you their world that the story lags (imo). 

 

Mm. An older man and a lad driving a wagon through the forest at twilight *will* be attacked by bandit archers.