What to do with 4 and 5 yo dd who continually ignore rules....

[StacyWithFourRugrats]

This year we have a 17 year old foreign exchange student living with us. The girls absolutely adore and look up to her. So much that we had to make a rule that they were not allowed in her room since they were ALWAYS in there. They would go in there when she wasn't there and eventually started messing with her things. Even took some lip gloss and were coloring things (this was the last straw and when we enacted the stay out of her room rule).

 

They are constantly breaking this rule. Sometimes multiple times a day. The usual punishment is that they will lose TV (which includes the computer an any electronic games). Right now they lost another week of TV.

 

After breaking the rule twice today, our foreign exchange student told us they were playing with her toner, lotion, makeup etc that is in a cabinet in the bathroom (which they know is off limits). I am at a total loss on what to do. Taking away privileges is not working. Yelling does not work.

 

We are fairly confident that the 5 yo daughter is leading the 4 yo into this trouble. Our 5 yo is a habitual liar and does not seem to care when she gets in trouble (she will kinda stare at you with the look "well, will you hurry up and finish lecturing me??"). We often tell our 4 yo to not do things her sister does that she knows is wrong. But well, she looks up to her I am sure.

 

What would you do? I know they are young but this behavior can not continue. There is no doubt from our teachings that respect is very important in this family. She just doesn't seem to care. The 4 yo again is usually not to blame but we often punish her the same as she broke the rule just as much as her sister, regardless of whose idea it was. She does care but her sister obviously influences her quite a lot.

 

Our boys, who are almost 8yo and 6yo, are totally different and respect the few rules we have in this house (well, the almost 8 year old especially...he is the eldest and it definately shows). That just makes our daughters' behavior so much harder.

 

[Mx5]

There are inexpensive locking doorknobs at any hardware store. I think it's of critical importance that your house guest have her space be "sacred".

 

Have her move all her toiletries into her room, not in the bathroom. It's easy enough to pick up an inexpensive Rubbermaid type container into which she can keep her special potions, makeup,etc.

 

As for what to do with the little girls, let's see. Hmm. It seems like the consequences are not effective for the little ring-leader. I would heartily recommend getting a hold of some Parenting with Love & Logic materials. They have a marvelous website with articles (free) at http://www.loveandlogic.com Check your local library for the book, "Parenting with Love & Logic".

 

What I would do if they were my girls would be to cause them to have to really think if breaking the rules is worth the consequence. Stop monologuing - it is ineffective. Simple choices work best. "If you choose to disobey me, you are choosing to go to bed a half hour earlier than everyone else tonight." or "If you choose to disobey me, you are choosing to not (insert important thing here... like have dessert or play with a friend or some other immediate thing)"

 

This has been effective for some of my kids, not so much for others. I would say the most important thing for you to do is to be calm and unemotional.

 

Just a few random thoughts before I drop into bed. I hope they help!

[Ellie]

isn't all that great a punishment for dc so young.

 

In my house, they would be spanked. It's immediate and memorable, and over with.

[Unicorn.]

I have a dd just like this (9). She has always been like this. I have learned that she needs shorter, more immediate consequences. Don't ground her for a week. By the time the week is up, she does'nt remember what she did wrong, or she figures that she's already grounded, so why bother being good. (she learned that one from her brother). Take away the tv for one day instead, and put her in time out. Tell her she has a 5 minute time out, but she has to be quiet for an entire 5 minutes. Any yelling, muttering, etc, results in time starting over. You might try tomato staking her for a day as well. The important thing is to have short, consistent consequences.

 

Explain to her that she wouldn't like someone messing w/ her stuff, and mention a favorite blankie/toy, so that she can make that connection . I also agree with mX5 that the older girl should have a lock, or at least use a portable cosmetic case.

[Blue Hen]

First I would not spank. There is no need for a physical response like that, ever.

 

In place of losing TV for a week I would give an immediate punishment; cleaning task is one I use. For instance breaking the rule of going into this girl's room would be cleaning the kitchen floor; or folding laundry; or cleaning all the showers in the house. or some other task that they do not want to do. Yes, a 4 or 5 yo can easily do these tasks. Removing TV and PC access for a week is really too long a time period and not an immediate enough consequence for their actions.

 

I would keep doing what you are doing as treating both girls as equal culprits in this affair.

[Tonia]

Tomato staking and immediate consequences.

[Free Indeed]

I agree with the other posters. They have offered great advice. I would watch her and ambush her. She know the rules and is breaking them intentionally- even at her age- whats worse is she is bringing her sister along for the ride. When I caught her I wouldn't say a word, just give her a swat, take her down, and walk off. Then watch again. I would make it your duty for at least one whole day to catch her. That is just how I would handle repeat offense like that. As far as removing the items- maybe some of the more expensive items, but replace them with cheap lip glosses or something. I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but my thought are God did not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of reach, he put it in the middle of the garden. Well, there is my 2 cents. ;)

[Chris in VA]

Willful disobedience, especially when repeated multiple time, really gets my goat. I would say spank, but that may not be in your parenting repetoire. It does work, but I just am unsure of the message it sends--although my thought really is that the message is, I'm extremely serious and you will obey me, or suffer this. I am the boss, and you do not get to make this choice without me giving you this consequence.

Whatever you choose, I would try to tie it logically to the "crime," which you did by making the new rule. A lock, as others said, would definitely help. Is your dd very social? Then isolation may be a good consequence. People who cannot be trusted to obey rules must be taken out of society. If she prefers being alone, this doesn't work.

Is it just extreme curiousity, coupled with the disobedience?

Wish I could help more.

Here's a website I've found useful before.

http://www.disciplinehelp.com/parent/detail.cfm?behaviorID=21&title=The%20Crier%20%28Who%20Sheds%20Tears%29&step=Action

Sorry--you may need to paste that--I'm still new at this link stuff!

HTH

Chris

[rose_king]

I would let the other children invade her space. As a matter of fact, both of their personal spaces. The ring leader ( I have one of those) will not like it at all:glare:. She can watch everyone play with her things, but is not allowed to join in. Your little follower will learn that she needs to think about the consequences of following her sister into trouble. Make sure the whole family is involved. Congregate in their room. Pull out the babies and barbies. Color in their special coloring books. Whatever is special to them, poke around in it. Make sure they see you having fun, and are not allowed to join in at all. Then talk to them. How did you like someone in your special stuff? Did you like everyone playing with your things? Well, that is how ??? felt when you went pilfering in her room. Let them know it is not a nice feeling.

 

Good Luck! My little meddler is now 12. They just get more inventive.:glare:

 

Not sure if this helps any, but ther you go! :001_smile:

[Mandamom]

I think the trick is to find their currency which might be different for each girl. My oldest (now 17) would just "die" if he lost electronics so that was what was taken away everytime he broke the rules. For my 13 year old, a very social one, that putting him in his room for a while would be enough to change the behavior. For my 9 year old separation is the ultimate consequence -- in her room or something. Interestingly, I was just realizing tonight that the punishment of putting my 4 year old in his room isn't punishment for him. We might need to reevaluate what his consequences are.

[StephanieZ]

I never did it "full on", but I toyed with the "tomato staking" ideas when my kids were around those ages and had chronic misbehaviors like that. The idea is: "You can't behave properly when you aren't supervised, so you will need to be BY MY SIDE EVERY MINUTE" of the day/afternoon/etc. . . The child has to follow you, from room to boring room. . . sitting at the kitchen counter coloring while you prepare supper. . . sitting on the floor of whatever room you are in while you are schooling/cleaning/chatting on the phone. B-O-R-I-N-G? Tough noogies!!!!!!!!

 

It surely drove ME nuts to be tied to a little monster, but it drove ds even nuttier. It DOES solve the problem you are having, as there is no way for the child to go somewhere that is disallowed if they are with you every minute.

 

I only ever fully instituted it for a part day at a time, but you could surely do it for as many days as needed. Since your problem is happening daily or more often, it may be enough to do it for "the rest of the day" after the first incident of the day. Hopefully they'll learn in a couple days. . .

 

I am sure other moms have used these principles more thoroughly and could provide details. . .

 

Another idea: Can you rig a bell/alarm/noise maker to the girls door and set it when she is out of the house? This would allow you to immediately KNOW when they have broken the rule, so you can immediately serve up a consequence and it will also PREVENT them from having any "fun" in her room, so remove that natural "reward" which is fighting against your own consequence. I'd think it'd be worth the $20 or so to buy sth along these lines (the kind you use for a store door that sets off a chime?) . . . as these ARE pretty young kids, and so it's not outrageous that they need some real supervision/guidance to break this bad habit. . . and a chime/bell could act as your extra set of eyes. . .

 

Here's a chime at amazon http://www.amazon.com/Plug-In-Enterance-Alert-Chime/dp/B000BPIM40

 

HTH. . .

[Pamela H in Texas]

two words: short leash

 

(otherwise known as tomato staking)

 

They simply cannot have the priviledge of so much freedom. They are either not ready for it or they are abusing it. Either way, the rule is that they are at LEAST in eyesight at all times for a time. I probably would start them at armslength.

 

BTW, I also wouldn't have this a short term thing, esp for the 5yo. It allows for you to teach, train, and guide. Since you're having ongoing issues with her, you can not only prevent certain issues, but you can immediately redirect, help, discipline, etc with issues that crop up.

[JudoMom]

This thread is 2 years old. It doesn't look like Stacy has even been on here since last June.

[Pamela H in Texas]

weird! LOL

 

how do threads get resurrected after SO much time?

[Parrothead]

What would you do?

 

Put a lock on the door.

[Hedgehogs4]

delete...realized how old and irrelevant the post is. oops.

[JudoMom]

weird! LOL

 

how do threads get resurrected after SO much time?

 

I've got no idea! I've noticed a couple tonight, though. I do wish they'd lock posts older than 6 months or so.

[SonshineLearner]

I've got no idea! I've noticed a couple tonight, though. I do wish they'd lock posts older than 6 months or so.

 

OR.. just have a warning, "You are about to post to a post older than 6 months, proceed??"

 

:-)

[lakotajm]

I would let the other children invade her space. As a matter of fact, both of their personal spaces. The ring leader ( I have one of those) will not like it at all:glare:. She can watch everyone play with her things, but is not allowed to join in. Your little follower will learn that she needs to think about the consequences of following her sister into trouble. Make sure the whole family is involved. Congregate in their room. Pull out the babies and barbies. Color in their special coloring books. Whatever is special to them, poke around in it. Make sure they see you having fun, and are not allowed to join in at all. Then talk to them. How did you like someone in your special stuff? Did you like everyone playing with your things? Well, that is how ??? felt when you went pilfering in her room. Let them know it is not a nice feeling.

 

 

 

My 6 dd sounds just like this girl, and this would soooo not be a good idea. I have tried it with my thief/meddler, and it will cause an unleashing of such tears and fury you could not imagine. You would be lucky if you came out without bitemarks. I mean, if she is like mine, anyway. Who is gonna hold her still while the family enjoys this pilfering?

This would only work with a child who is already more on the mild and sensitive side. She sounds more like mine-" I couldn't care less what you say or do, but if I should happen to care, WATCH OUT!" Mine recently stole her big sister's new manicure tool 3 times in less than two weeks. I first tried a "golden rule lecture" followed by forced apology. I tried a time out without the lecture next (always followed with apology.) I tried taking away money and more stern language the last time. But it will certainly be repeated, as she never seems phazed.

 

Lately, I decided to use imagery with her, as occasionally "tricks" work with her. I told her she needs to imagine that all people and all their things have a wall around them. and the only way through the gate is "Please May I...". We have to be quick to catch her before she busts through those gates and remind her. But her sisters started doing this...telling her "Hey, there's a wall!" Maybe it will work, we'll see.

 

Another poster mentioned chores. But one like this will then just refuse to do the chore/pout/spout, etc. until she also ends up with a time out or spanking for that. It never ends with a difficult child. It seems you spend 1/2 your day enforcing boundaries with endless time outs that degenerate into major fits at times. I tried positive methods like Kazdin. It works better for kids who are externally motivated and these kids usually are not. So she would be like "So I don't get a point, who cares? I got to steal a toy, hit my sister and climb up to get candy-life is good."

 

Not to be stomping on hope here, it's just that some methods that work for normal kids do not work for spirited (ornery) ones.;)

 

Lakota

[Luanne]

isn't all that great a punishment for dc so young.

 

In my house, they would be spanked. It's immediate and memorable, and over with.

 

:iagree: