Perfect PSer but difficult HSer

[plumshadow]

My DD had a great attitude during the time she was in public school all of Kindergarten and the entire part she was in first grade always came home with her behavior folder on "green". She wasn't challenged at all and afterschooling became a pain so we cut out the middle man and started homeschooling. It's been almost 2 months and she is constantly exhibiting bratty behavior.

 

For example, today she wanted to do art first thing in the morning I say "OK" She started out drawing then switched to water paints. I let her know she had 20 mins...then 10...then time to get started. She wanted more time to fold the paper :glare: 3 minutes later. I'm insistent we get started. instant sulk face and attitude.  I ask she get out the Latin, but she wants to do spelling "OK". Next, I ask she get out Latin, no she wants handwriting "OK". Then I try again with Latin and she cuts me off looking for anything else to do instead. Not because she doesn't want to do Latin just to be contradictory. Latin is MWF so yesterday wasn't a Latin day and as you guessed that's what she asked to do when I asked to get out a different subject.

 

We've had a parent/teacher-child relationship since forever being she was one of the 3 going on 5 kids who started K ahead of the curve and afterschooled since K to keep her challenged so its not a getting used to the new roles type thing (I don't think).

 

At school always bright faced and eager to please, here the sulk face at the first "no" and constantly going against the grain just because. I don't get it.  I've suggest she go back to PS and she said she didn't want to. So why the attitude?

[*Lulu*]

Is she like this with any other aspect of her day?

[plumshadow]

Is she like this with any other aspect of her day?

 

Sort of but not nearly as bad. She is trying to have a greater aversion to not getting her way.

[*Lulu*]

How old is she?

[plumshadow]

She will be 7 the end of July

[*Lulu*]

Well some it might just be the age. My DD seems to kick up the attitude around her birthday on odd numbered years.

 

Some of it might be the transition from the structure of the school day to being at home with a looser schedule. (Even if it is only looser in her perception of things. :) )

[Crimson Wife]

My kids have a list of assignments each day, and I don't care which order they do them in, so long as they all get completed. Trying to say this gently, but why do you care which order she completes the subject in?

[mom2myboys]

Can you post a list of the subjects that need to be done on each day and then let  her choose what is next? She can then see what is on the list for the day and has some control over what is next, but it takes you and the conflict out of the equation. 

[*Lulu*]

I say do what works. Which is, IMO, one of the major perks of homeschooling in the first place!

 

If it works to give her a list and let her pick the order, do it that way.

 

If it works to say we are doing them in this order and have an established routine, do it that way.

 

Whatever you try, do it consistently for at least 3-4 weeks before you evaluate its success or failure.

[plumshadow]

There is and can be some flexibility in her day but with a VERY ALL BOY 2 year old its not plausible.  It works best when it switches from a teacher intensive subject to non teacher intensive etc. or a couple of non teacher intensive subjects like handwriting and Latin then math. I have to juggle between the two of the them and leaving the little one to his own devices for too long spells disaster for all.  Subjects like science really only works when he is sleep especially if there is an experiment.  In school she had NO choice and was completely fine here she has some control and its not enough.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

At school she didn't get to tell the teacher that she wanted to do something different.  Instead of saying "Ok", I would say "No".  Yes, there will most certainly be a tantrum but I would risk that just to nip this in the bud.  My older kids have a lot of flexibility and freedom in their days but at that age and because of what has been going on, I personally wouldn't allow it.  

[*Lulu*]

I agree with Jean on this one.

 

I'm all for giving kids age appropriate freedom and control, but it has to be in the context of what works for the family.

 

I would just lay it out that school at our house right now looks like x. It may be a few rough weeks, but if you need it a certain way right now it will be worth establishing the routine sooner than later.

[katilac]

There is and can be some flexibility in her day but with a VERY ALL BOY 2 year old its not plausible.  It works best when it switches from a teacher intensive subject to non teacher intensive etc. or a couple of non teacher intensive subjects like handwriting and Latin then math. I have to juggle between the two of the them and leaving the little one to his own devices for too long spells disaster for all.  Subjects like science really only works when he is sleep especially if there is an experiment.  In school she had NO choice and was completely fine here she has some control and its not enough.  

 

One thing I would definitely suggest: I noticed in your OP that you told her what was coming up next, but then sometimes let her change it. That should stop.

 

If you are going to allow her to choose the next subject, then say that right away. "You get to choose this time. What would you like to do next?" 

 

When she doesn't have a choice, say that right away. "Brother is sleeping, so we have to move on to science next." 

 

If she wastes time arguing, then don't let her choose at all. Don't be punitive about it, don't say she has lost the privilege of choosing, etc. Simply state, as a  matter of fact, that you have decided that it will work better if you choose what subject to do next. Don't let her derail you with a long discussion; tell her you are willing to explain it, but not during school time - she can come to you during her play time if she wishes, lol. If she's willing to do that, I'd listen to her complaints once - not during dinner, not while she plays, but seated at a table doing nothing else. Complaints lose much of their appeal when they are done on their time  :tongue_smilie: 

 

I will say that she doesn't sound particularly difficult. This is typical kid behavior (not to say it wouldn't annoy me!), and it's up to you to decide on a workable schedule, and how much choice she has. If it makes you crazy to not go in your planned order, then go in your planned order and remove a major irritation from your day.  

[LLMom]

I would give it some more time before deciding to send her back.  But some kids do better with someone else being teacher.  I have at least 3 like that. 

[Ellie]

My DD had a great attitude during the time she was in public school all of Kindergarten and the entire part she was in first grade always came home with her behavior folder on "green". She wasn't challenged at all and afterschooling became a pain so we cut out the middle man and started homeschooling. It's been almost 2 months and she is constantly exhibiting bratty behavior.

 

For example, today she wanted to do art first thing in the morning I say "OK" She started out drawing then switched to water paints. I let her know she had 20 mins...then 10...then time to get started. She wanted more time to fold the paper :glare: 3 minutes later. I'm insistent we get started. instant sulk face and attitude.  I ask she get out the Latin, but she wants to do spelling "OK". Next, I ask she get out Latin, no she wants handwriting "OK". Then I try again with Latin and she cuts me off looking for anything else to do instead. Not because she doesn't want to do Latin just to be contradictory. Latin is MWF so yesterday wasn't a Latin day and as you guessed that's what she asked to do when I asked to get out a different subject.

 

We've had a parent/teacher-child relationship since forever being she was one of the 3 going on 5 kids who started K ahead of the curve and afterschooled since K to keep her challenged so its not a getting used to the new roles type thing (I don't think).

 

At school always bright faced and eager to please, here the sulk face at the first "no" and constantly going against the grain just because. I don't get it.  I've suggest she go back to PS and she said she didn't want to. So why the attitude?

 

:grouphug:

 

I promise you that it will take much longer than two months to see any significant improvements/changes in her behavior. In fact, I would not have suggested that you jump into any sort of formal academics until at least next fall, because it will take *at least* that long to undo the damage done to her by the school. Her emotional and psychological health need to be addressed before the academics.

 

[Night Elf]

Another thought is that at school, she is with a group of peers. At home, she's alone so it's easier to want to manipulate her situation. I'm not saying that in a negative manner, just that she actually has some control at home. She doesn't have her peers or a strict schedule to keep her focused during the day.

 

I also suggest you let her choose some subjects. At her age, I'd give her some limited choice. I might tell her she can choose between handwriting and Latin and whatever she chooses to be first, the next thing will be second. Maybe she was avoiding Latin because she doesn't like it. That might be one of the subjects she should do and then get a happy thing next, like a snack of her choice during a break. I gave my kids frequent breaks when they were little. It stretched out our day, but it kept them from feeling overwhelmed.

[Myeightkiddies]

At school she didn't get to tell the teacher that she wanted to do something different.  Instead of saying "Ok", I would say "No".  Yes, there will most certainly be a tantrum but I would risk that just to nip this in the bud.  My older kids have a lot of flexibility and freedom in their days but at that age and because of what has been going on, I personally wouldn't allow it.  

 

This.

 

The reason I'm not going to encourage child-led scheduling is because she thrived in public school and doesn't seem to be (attitude-wise not academically) right now.  She seems to respond well to structure and discipline.  The teacher did not let her choose which subjects or when.  There were rules.  The schedule was consistent - predictable.  Try to mimic some of those things, for now, until her attitude improves.  Have a set time for starting and stopping.  Keep the subject order the same, as best as you can with the little one.

 

 Allow her to choose things that don't affect the schedule or structure.  If it is art time, perhaps give her the choice of which craft to do first.  If it is reading time, set out two books and give her a choice of which one to read.  Don't allow her to choose the schedule/subjects.  She will most likely be resistant at first.  Stay firm.  Stay consistent.  Keep the schedule.  If you do, the resistance will end sooner than it would otherwise.  

 

When speaking to her during this change, stay positive and encouraging but always firm.  Don't over-explain yourself.  Just inform her that you want to change how you do things as you know this is best.  Then do it.  Don't lecture about it and justify your actions.  If you seem happy with the change, she will too, at some point.  Smile, a lot.

 

In time, you can introduce more flexibility.  For now, I believe she may do better with structure and routine.  She thrived and seemed to respond so well to it previously, so it is definitely worth a try again.  I hope things improve with all.  

[poppy]

She did well with public school, which is highly structured, so I would try to mimic that a bit more, at least in the beginning.

Being as flexible as you are being is not a bad thing, but its' not working, so stop.

[Alexigail]

I'm right there with you!  My 6.5 year old does a lot of what you're describing. I think that it's partly his age, but maybe also the emergence of some logical thinking and reasoning skills.  That doesn't make the day any easier though!

[Crimson Wife]

I'd say that the problem is the programs you've chosen are too parent-intensive for having an active toddler underfoot. The flexibility of HSing is one of the best aspects and I hated all the arbitrary rules of PS back when I went through. In an institutional school those rigid schedules make sense, because one teacher has to teach the whole class together. But in a HS situation it just seems petty IMHO to insist on "first A, then B, then C" every. single. day.

[Unicorn.]

She needs the structure of a routine. Too much freedom to fast is overwhelming, especially for young kids. I would set up a routine, and stick to it. You can post a schedule where she can see it, and even check off each subject when she's done.

[plumshadow]

Thank you for all for your insight. I think I will try and be more clear when it's a choice and when it's not.  My goal with the tentative schedule was not to be arbitrary or petty but to give everyone a sense of what can be expected through the day. I'm new to this and still have a ton to research but haven't found a satisfying way to make math, spelling and LA something that doesn't require my attention.  Doing all the reading for LLTL right before DS goes down for his nap really works for us because he is usually content with sitting in my lap and DD does the copy work while I go lay him down. Today math got put there and it was less than stellar trying to keep a cranky child away from the manipulatives that were in use.  I respect HSing can be tailored in every area but I also would like for her to learn understand during this time that being part of a family means to give and take. It's not always going to be what she wants when she wants. So right now I will try letting her pick the order she does non teacher intensive activities but math, LA spelling and science/history will be pretty set.

[Crimson Wife]

Some personality types just really dislike what they see as micromanagement, especially if they perceive it as being arbitrary. Are you familiar with Myers-Briggs? The J vs. P dimension is what I'm talking about. I can't do any sort of really strict schedule/budget/diet/etc. because it brings out my stubborn/rebellious side. But give me a general framework that allows for some flexibility and I'm fine with that.

 

If you're a "J" parent of a "P" child, you've got to learn to chill or you'll just wind up butting heads with your child.

[poppy]

Some personality types just really dislike what they see as micromanagement, especially if they perceive it as being arbitrary. Are you familiar with Myers-Briggs? The J vs. P dimension is what I'm talking about. I can't do any sort of really strict schedule/budget/diet/etc. because it brings out my stubborn/rebellious side. But give me a general framework that allows for some flexibility and I'm fine with that.

 

If you're a "J" parent of a "P" child, you've got to learn to chill or you'll just wind up butting heads with your child.

At this age I think it's more likely that the kid is responding to loose boundaries by pushing further. Which doesn't necessarily mean 'tighten things up' but it definitely calls for fine tuning. . I personally would not be inclined to give more freedom if we knew this child was thriving with less.

[Ellie]

At this age I think it's more likely that the kid is responding to loose boundaries by pushing further. Which doesn't necessarily mean 'tighten things up' but it definitely calls for fine tuning. . I personally would not be inclined to give more freedom if we knew this child was thriving with less.

 

I think it would definitely be a good idea to have good, solid boundaries and routines, but I don't think that has to include Official Schoolwork. I think the redevelopment of the parent/child relationship, especially the adjustment to being at home all day face to face with each other, should take precedence, especially for such a young child.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'd say that the problem is the programs you've chosen are too parent-intensive for having an active toddler underfoot. The flexibility of HSing is one of the best aspects and I hated all the arbitrary rules of PS back when I went through. In an institutional school those rigid schedules make sense, because one teacher has to teach the whole class together. But in a HS situation it just seems petty IMHO to insist on "first A, then B, then C" every. single. day.

Having a routine that is based on a baby's nap schedule and other facts of life is not arbitrary or rigid.  It provides the security of a routine and boundaries for what is still a young child.  

[Crimson Wife]

Having a routine that is based on a baby's nap schedule and other facts of life is not arbitrary or rigid.

Saying that certain subjects need to be done during baby's nap because baby will get into them is not arbitrary. But saying that Latin has to be done MWF and we can't do it today because GASP it's Tuesday *IS* arbitrary. If I had been HS and my mom had tried to pull that kind of arbitrary micromanagement on me, it would have gotten my backbone up as well. What's the big deal for doing Wednesday's Latin lesson on Tuesday?

[Miss Mousie]

As others have mentioned, the freedom she is getting at home was not available to her in PS.  I think she is merely testing where the new freedoms end.  "If I can paint instead of doing Latin, can I also paint for a longer time?  Why, yes, I can!  Does that mean I can also push Latin to a different day?  Oops, nope, that one didn't fly.  How about doing Latin during brother's naptime?  Will that work?"  And so on.  I'm sure she isn't doing this consciously, and wouldn't be able to say so if you asked her, but I'm thinking you need to sort out exactly where your boundaries are and then let her know, consistently, where the flexibility is available.

 

You're only two months in.  I'd expect to spend the next month or two focused more on establishing boundaries and routines and less on getting through the workbook, KWIM?

 

 

[plumshadow]

As others have mentioned, the freedom she is getting at home was not available to her in PS.  I think she is merely testing where the new freedoms end.  "If I can paint instead of doing Latin, can I also paint for a longer time?  Why, yes, I can!  Does that mean I can also push Latin to a different day?  Oops, nope, that one didn't fly.  How about doing Latin during brother's naptime?  Will that work?"  And so on.  I'm sure she isn't doing this consciously, and wouldn't be able to say so if you asked her, but I'm thinking you need to sort out exactly where your boundaries are and then let her know, consistently, where the flexibility is available.

 

You're only two months in.  I'd expect to spend the next month or two focused more on establishing boundaries and routines and less on getting through the workbook, KWIM?

 

Yes, this sounds pretty accurate. I just couldn't step out of the situation enough to see it. I was too hung on the fact that (slightly to my chagrin) she never rocked the boat at school. She had to move down a color 1 time in Kindergarten and cried until she hyperventilated, thus ending her brief stint on the wild side and then went to the complete opposite spectrum regardless of the issue at home.  

 

[AmyontheFarm]

My dd would want to do other subjects than what I wanted because they were more fun.  One day she saw my schedule for the day and asked me about it.  It was a lightbulb moment for us.  I photocopied it and had her colour in the subjects she could work on pretty much alone with one colored marker.  When I needed her to work on her own, she could quickly see which subjects needed to be done and she would plow through them.  Could you give your dd her own schedule so she could see what has to get done each day?

[katilac]

Yes, this sounds pretty accurate. I just couldn't step out of the situation enough to see it. I was too hung on the fact that (slightly to my chagrin) she never rocked the boat at school. She had to move down a color 1 time in Kindergarten and cried until she hyperventilated, thus ending her brief stint on the wild side and then went to the complete opposite spectrum regardless of the issue at home.  

 

 

That's a very natural reaction, one that I've had more than once myself! 

 

But then I reminded myself that I don't want my kids to behave because they are terrified of making a false move, kwim? 

[SweetandSimple]

My daughter is the same age and had recently been starting to develop a little more of an attitude. However, we recently started doing workboxes, and she LOVES them. There is no more discussion or arguing about what to do next-- we just follow the order of the boxes. I rearrange/fill the boxes every night after she is in bed (yes-- this takes a bit of time!)  and throw in a couple of fun activities, so there is A LOT of motivation to get the work done in order to see what is next. (She isn't allowed to peek into the later boxes.) This also allows me to organize the boxes in such a way that I can try to place the more parent-intensive subjects during the best part of the day for us. Or, if we have a particularly busy day planned, I can fill the boxes with lighter things that don't take as much time.

 

Just something that you might want to try!

[plumshadow]

It's much better now. I explained the subjects that could be her choice and the ones that were mine and added longer breaks before transitioning over to the next thing. We are getting along much better again. 

[*Lulu*]

It's much better now. I explained the subjects that could be her choice and the ones that were mine and added longer breaks before transitioning over to the next thing. We are getting along much better again.

That is terrific!