s/o how to work through progressively more challenging works

[Critterfixer]

I don't know about the kids, but I notice that when I read better quality fiction it tends to improve my reading overall. If I read lesser quality material I quickly revert to my skim and move on mentality which typically takes one or more doses of good fiction to improve it. That carries over to non-fiction for me, and since I need to read a good deal of non-fiction for various reasons, NOT skim it like I tend to do, reading good fiction is sort of my tonic I need to take to make me a better reader.

 

But overall, I'm a little depressed after reading this thread. Sort of feel very inadequate, and unhappy that my kids just are not up to reading at this level. It's sort of discouraging rather than encouraging.

(And I'm quite sure it was not meant to inspire that sort of feeling!)

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't know about the kids, but I notice that when I read better quality fiction it tends to improve my reading overall. If I read lesser quality material I quickly revert to my skim and move on mentality which typically takes one or more doses of good fiction to improve it. That carries over to non-fiction for me, and since I need to read a good deal of non-fiction for various reasons, NOT skim it like I tend to do, reading good fiction is sort of my tonic I need to take to make me a better reader.

 

But overall, I'm a little depressed after reading this thread. Sort of feel very inadequate, and unhappy that my kids just are not up to reading at this level. It's sort of discouraging rather than encouraging.

(And I'm quite sure it was not meant to inspire that sort of feeling!)

 

I find that very interesting. Myself, I went back and forth between classic works like Pride and Prejudice and Archie comics without a discernible loss of focus or stamina. So my kids come by it naturally. :lol:

 

Don't let this thread depress you! Whenever I read a thread that depresses me, I just ask myself if there is anything really wrong and fixable with what I am currently doing, or if someone else just has different ideas that don't match up with either my goals or my reality. Sometimes threads are vitally necessary wake up calls and sometimes I just roll over and hit the snooze button. :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA: Your curricula is solid and your read-aloud is perfect for 4th grade. I see nothing to sneeze at in your signature. :)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Don't let this thread depress you! Whenever I read a thread that depresses me, I just ask myself if there is anything really wrong and fixable with what I am currently doing, or if someone else just has different ideas that don't match up with either my goals or my reality. Sometimes threads are vitally necessary wake up calls and sometimes I just roll over and hit the snooze button. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

Wise words and excellent advice!  :cheers2: 

[justamouse]

I don't know about the kids, but I notice that when I read better quality fiction it tends to improve my reading overall. If I read lesser quality material I quickly revert to my skim and move on mentality which typically takes one or more doses of good fiction to improve it. That carries over to non-fiction for me, and since I need to read a good deal of non-fiction for various reasons, NOT skim it like I tend to do, reading good fiction is sort of my tonic I need to take to make me a better reader.

 

But overall, I'm a little depressed after reading this thread. Sort of feel very inadequate, and unhappy that my kids just are not up to reading at this level. It's sort of discouraging rather than encouraging.

(And I'm quite sure it was not meant to inspire that sort of feeling!)

 

This is *precisely* why I specified that my own children are SLOW starters with reading. It's just who they are. I've tried to push it, and it cannot be pushed, there's just some switch that gets flicked around 8/9 and that's when it starts to pick up. If they were in a brick and mortar, I am SURE they would be in remedial classes. Dd8 has known her phonograms since she was 5. It has taken her three years of every day trudging work to get her to the point of reading When We Were Six.  (the blessing of homeschooling is that they never knew they were behind, they didn't have anyone telling them that. They just knew they had to work very hard at it, and they did.)

So, I encourage you, you CAN do this. Your kids can. They are so young yet! 

[Critterfixer]

Oh, it's probably a wake-up call when I'd rather hit the snooze button.

 

I'm in the middle of fifth grade planning, administering standardized tests and agonizing over literature way more than I should. It's a journey, and sometimes I get in too much of a hurry to get there. On the other hand, I spent time this morning going over a good list of questions to use with our literature this year from writing classes I've gone through over the years, and I can see that we can have a lot of fun integrating literature and writing creative fiction this year that should be fun. 

And I'm also enjoying picking out a lot of adventure oriented stories and books for reading this summer, fall and winter that should be enjoyable for the boys and provide a bit of challenge.

I need to get more involved with their reading, though. We will probably discuss more and write more if I do.

[quark]

But overall, I'm a little depressed after reading this thread. Sort of feel very inadequate, and unhappy that my kids just are not up to reading at this level. It's sort of discouraging rather than encouraging.

(And I'm quite sure it was not meant to inspire that sort of feeling!)

It often slips my mind, to convey in threads like these, that anything achieved has taken time and effort and some very conscious effort too to make it happen. I had some clear goals with regards to math and reading, envisioning the amount of passion I wanted him to have and just working towards that goal and sometimes neglecting other areas.

 

Whatever he does in math and reading is usually at the expense of something else. We don't spend a lot of time writing and prefer to spend that time reading, for example. He is a very slow writer. Writes well enough but is lacking in fluency. We don't do the 4-year history rotation and go with the flow with history. There are plenty of gaps in every area. We still haven't achieved what I envision to be grade level work in the botany area of life science/ biology for example. The list of things we've let slip in the interest of following math and reading bunny trails is quite huge if I write it all down. That's just one reason why I don't list specifics in my siggy. :) Our studies are usually quite lacking in specific curriculum and subjects because we tend to take a more integrated, "everything-is-connected" route and keep the long-term in view for those areas that we don't work on as regularly.

 

I too urge you to not be discouraged. Every little bit helps. It does add up in the end.

[justamouse]

Quark, I love your post and your homeschooling philosophy. 

[quark]

Quark, I love your post and your homeschooling philosophy. 

 

:blush: :001_wub: :P Humble thanks justamouse!
 

[Critterfixer]

I like it, too.

 

And you are right, Quark. I have HAD to let some things slide this year because we really needed to work hard in one particular area (MATH) this winter and spring. I kind of let reading slide, that is, I left them to their own devices. They read a great deal, but we are not discussing it, or working with the material, and I'm not doing a good enough job of helping them with growing to be better readers. 

BUT, we are now right about where I want us to be with math, we seem to have something that is working, albeit painfully, and now I can focus more on things that have had to slide for a while. Both of them are turning out to have a bent for creative writing, and I think that they are now at a point where I can start pulling together literature to help them evolve as writers. I've already noticed that whenever they read, they tend to take those concepts and play with them, in oral stories they tell each other or in their own writing. So they are just now really starting to imitate. This could be the best year for literature and writing combined.

[stripe]

 We don't limit ourselves to classics for lit 

I guess I just think there are two issues: a ) the tendency to only consider it "reading" if it's a novel, and b ) there are better and worse quality of writing, not to mention accuracy!, in non-fiction.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Sometimes on threads such as this one it's good to be reminded of the importance of balancing quantity with depth.

(In other words, it's how I'm able to sleep at night!  :tongue_smilie:   ;)  )

 

Seriously though, Lily and I had the beginnings of a battle today when I found her rereading a book when she was supposed to be reading a new one. She finally told me she had never actually finished it before. I made her promise she was only reading the part she hadn't finished, after all time is ticking! :toetap05:

Her response?

 

 "Mom, it's Dickens." She followed this with the ever dreaded :001_rolleyes:  before she went back to her book.

 

I tried valiantly to salvage my dignity, but ended up just slinking off muttering nonsense about how the dishes need done, so she needs to finish up and get to them. Take that! :001_tt2:  

 

 

“In the case of good books, the point is not to see how many of them you can get through, but rather how many can get through to you.”

― Mortimer J. Adler

 

 

[Critterfixer]

What is it about Dickens and kids? 

I let the boys pick out a movie to watch this week as sugar for the pill of standardized testing and they chose Little Dorrit! It is their all time favorite since they were nine. 

You would think the complicated plot and multiple characters would be a problem, but they just love it. They don't get all of it, of course, but we had a lot of fun hitting pause and talking about setting and how you can use it to help define a character.

 

Sometimes I really get knocked about when I think something is going to be dull and it turns out THEY LOVE IT. We had that response with the read aloud of Tom Sawyer last fall. I didn't think they would go for it. But I guess Mark Twain is a whole lot better judge of what two little boys will like than I am.

[Tracy]

So how exactly does one know how to incrementally increase a student's reading level?  

 

I did not read and was not read to as a child.  There is no way I can keep up with my dd9, except that I read to her quite a bit.  She does enjoy classics, but she piles the library bad with series books.  She read the American Girl series at least twice, and now her friend got her hooked on A to Z mysteries.  Next year, I plan to have her do a lot of her own reading for TOG, but I don't know if that is enough.  

[quark]

 

 "Mom, it's Dickens." She followed this with the ever dreaded :001_rolleyes:  before she went back to her book.

 

I tried valiantly to salvage my dignity, but ended up just slinking off muttering nonsense about how the dishes need done, so she needs to finish up and get to them. Take that! :001_tt2:  

 

:lol: :grouphug: :lol: 

[Soror]

Well, we did less math this year as we focused more on grammar and writing :) Ds just loves to read. I wouldn't push him to read that much but he does it on his own, he also loves audio books and readalouds too, he just loves stories. I guess we'll see when my others get older what works best for them but lewelma's plan is great for a jumping off point if nothing else. Dd's listening skills are not up to ds' level, although she is reading better than he was at this age. I got a bit stressed with dd last year as my son was ready for longer and more complicated works at the same age but she is where she is, so I've just tried to focus on where she is and make progress. 

 

Fwiw Critterfixer I focused on the positive for the most part when posting earlier but I'm getting a sense that I need to increase expectations around here as well for ds and myself and it is a bit terrifying and exciting.

 

I have a tendency to speed ready myself so I'm personally hoping that once ds and I start going through books in an in-depth way together that I can work on slowing myself and him down some. I figure he will continue to read quickly and enjoy through most of his reading and that is ok as well. I think both are good. 

 

Woodland Mist LOL- I've had those convos too.

[quark]

So how exactly does one know how to incrementally increase a student's reading level?  

 

I did not read and was not read to as a child.  There is no way I can keep up with my dd9, except that I read to her quite a bit.  She does enjoy classics, but she piles the library bad with series books.  She read the American Girl series at least twice, and now her friend got her hooked on A to Z mysteries.  Next year, I plan to have her do a lot of her own reading for TOG, but I don't know if that is enough.  

 

I'm very sneaky.  :tongue_smilie: When he was younger, I used to rearrange one or two shelves that were at eye level with slightly more difficult classics and also leave books in obvious places like on the coffee table (strewing). He had a narrow "reading cave" that he made behind our sofa. When tidying up, I would fluff up his special cave pillow and rearrange his little cave blanket then leave a book on it to catch his eye. Once he crawled into that cave it was always more convenient to read the books already there first, or at least try the first few pages before climbing out to raid the bookshelf for others. Or I allowed certain books (over others) to be read past bedtime (not so subtle eh?).

 

Or I would say "oh, you really like Tom Sawyer? Let's see what else Twain wrote, chances are it will be as good if not better" (growing sideways as well as deeper with the same author). Or finding similar books that are slightly harder within the same favorite genre. E.g. when he liked stories about mice, we went through a whole gamut of mouse/ rat protagonist books (Mrs Frisby, The Tale of Despereaux, A Rat's Tale etc). Before Dickens, we went through a slightly easier but similarly written series of books by Leon Garfield first (Smith, Black Jack, John Diamond etc).
 

ETA: Oh, why do I always forget this? The biggest secret for us really is humor. When there were certain books that didn't immediately captivate him, I read them aloud (and usually chose something with humor in it first). And when it was good but didn't have much humor, I read aloud with a fake accent. It was timely (for me) that we read aloud Secret Garden right after the first season of Downton Abbey. :) I don't think I captured the Yorkshire accent well but it came close enough to tickle DS to bits.

[Critterfixer]

I also think (and I may be wrong) that it is vital that the parent be interested beyond general interest in a literature book that is being read. I am trying to make a point of being very specific in questions about reading. Even if it is just Hank the Cowdog, or the latest Eyewittness book that my engineer minded boy is reading. If it doesn't matter to Mom, why should it matter to them? I don't always have to read those books, but I do have to have a quick overview of the plot and characters or the basic thing being discussed in the non-fiction reading. I think it is even more important that I do that with the higher reading levels so that it becomes not just a thing for narration or class discussion, but something that begins to make its way into other aspects of our academic lives. 

 

Maybe that could be a way to increase reading level slowly is to make it a group effort. Ooh, I feel all Socratic all of the sudden.

 

And I'm hitting a lot of short story choices this year. Higher reading level, a lot of thinking, limited space to develop things, so they happen suddenly, and if you don't like it, it's over in a few pages. I figure I can up the amperage significantly with some short stories that don't require my boys to have to struggle over material for days and days. I'm trying to limit novels to things that I think will move fast, be of interest and have strong plots and not a lot of internal character struggle. That's not their strong point right now, and I think I'll have them get into that via shorter works of fiction.

[Tracy]

Let me rephrase the original question.  How does one know which books to use to incrementally increase the student's reading ability?  I don't have the vaguest notion how to figure out which book is incrementally more difficult than the book she is reading now.  

 

 

I'm very sneaky.  :tongue_smilie: When he was younger, I used to rearrange one or two shelves that were at eye level with slightly more difficult classics and also leave books in obvious places like on the coffee table (strewing). He had a narrow "reading cave" that he made behind our sofa. When tidying up, I would fluff up his special cave pillow and rearrange his little cave blanket then leave a book on it to catch his eye. Once he crawled into that cave it was always more convenient to read the books already there first, or at least try the first few pages before climbing out to raid the bookshelf for others. Or I allowed certain books (over others) to be read past bedtime (not so subtle eh?).

 

Or I would say "oh, you really like Tom Sawyer? Let's see what else Twain wrote, chances are it will be as good if not better" (growing sideways as well as deeper with the same author). Or finding similar books that are slightly harder within the same favorite genre. E.g. when he liked stories about mice, we went through a whole gamut of mouse/ rat protagonist books (Mrs Frisby, The Tale of Despereaux, A Rat's Tale etc). Before Dickens, we went through a slightly easier but similarly written series of books by Leon Garfield first (Smith, Black Jack, John Diamond etc).
 

ETA: Oh, why do I always forget this? The biggest secret for us really is humor. When there were certain books that didn't immediately captivate him, I read them aloud (and usually chose something with humor in it first). And when it was good but didn't have much humor, I read aloud with a fake accent. It was timely (for me) that we read aloud Secret Garden right after the first season of Downton Abbey. :) I don't think I captured the Yorkshire accent well but it came close enough to tickle DS to bits.

 

[quark]

Let me rephrase the original question.  How does one know which books to use to incrementally increase the student's reading ability?  I don't have the vaguest notion how to figure out which book is incrementally more difficult than the book she is reading now.  

Oops, sorry for not understanding your question, tracymirko. Would googling lexile levels or following grade by grade level recommendations help? E.g. if you look at lists compiled by Ambleside Online or Great Books Academy for example, you'll see that books are categorized by grade/ age level. Once your child is comfortably reading at one level, you can introduce the next and so on or work across 2-3 levels at a time (if she is asynchronous) then move on to the next 2-3 levels. I hope someone else will add something. I did not have a clear plan on how to go about it. Just went by interest first (based also on my own taste in books) then I googled around to see what was similar or slightly harder and googled for other authors who wrote similar books.

 

ETA: finding lexile level (there might be others...this came up on a quick google search).

[Tracy]

I did not have a clear plan on how to go about it. Just went by interest first (based also on my own taste in books) then I googled around to see what was similar or slightly harder and googled for other authors who wrote similar books.

 

I wonder if you could give an example.  I mean, can I really just google "classics similar to but slightly harder than American Girl?"   :huh:

[quark]

Sorry, no experience with American Girl. For this series, I might just ask here or on other forums. :001_smile:  E.g. "if my dd likes American Girl, what else is similar and slightly harder?"

 

But for others I might google "classic lit for girls/ boys" and see what comes up, go to the library, check it out, see how kiddo reacts and work on it from there.

 

E.g. he likes HG Wells, so I'll search for "authors like HG Wells". I did that just now and one of the hits was Jules Verne. :001_smile: If that's not enough, I might google "vintage sci fi" and so on. Sometimes the trick is just figuring out the right search key words. Good luck!

 

ETA: oh, forgot 2 good tips:

1. if you search for a book on Amazon (not necessarily to buy it) you'll also see other similar suggestions!

2. ask your local librarian..."what other books do girls who like American Girl read?"

[Critterfixer]

I get what tracymirko means. I don't like those sites. They do me no good when it comes to picking out something my boys will love. It's not just about the level of the reading, or the sentence structure or the ideas. It's themes that hamstring me. It's one thing to say my child loves dogs when he loves Hank the Cowdog. What he really loves is the rather goofy hero that the dog is! So I don't need to go look for books on dogs, but books with the western/tough/somewhat goofy hero. 

It isn't easy. I check out a lot of books that just don't get read.

 

I think it will be better if I spend more time discussing what they read with them. Perhaps it will give me more to go on when looking for classics that they have half a chance of loving.

 

I wish I had a librarian who I could trust to be a good judge of literature. Mine is nice and all, but her interests run more to the younger kids. My used bookstore seller has been helpful to me at times, because she is a vintage book person, and she spends a lot of time hunting down older, classic books for kids. She has pointed me in directions at times that were useful.

 

But mostly I've been "throw it and see if it sticks" and that isn't just working out so well for me either.

 

(At least, I THINK I get what tracymirko means.)

I wish there was a place where I could type in what my child likes and then get the recommended classic for the interest and higher reading level all at once. Much as I like wasting time at the library.

[quark]

Hmm, maybe I've been really lucky? I haven't had an issue with finding books. I've had lots of trouble finding time to read them all.

There's so much info out there...forums like this one, CM yahoo groups, and just googling whatever comes to mind.

And there's no way that I get everything right on the first try. For every book or search result that works there are at least 2-3 that don't.

[quark]

I wish there was a place where I could type in what my child likes and then get the recommended classic for the interest and higher reading level all at once. Much as I like wasting time at the library.

 

So on a whim, I searched and got this:

What Should I Read Next?

 

I don't know if the results will suit your taste exactly though...it is not human, and limited by search algorithms but there might be more of such tools out there I am not aware of. E.g. a friend swears by Good Reads. I am just too lazy to sign up. :)

[Critterfixer]

Yeah, I sort of have an affinity for human help. Goofy me.

[Kfamily]

I wonder if you could give an example.  I mean, can I really just google "classics similar to but slightly harder than American Girl?"   :huh:

Here are a few suggestions, but I'm not sure if they would be a good fit or not....

E. B White books (Trumpet of the Swan, Charlotte's Web, etc. We didn't care for Stuart Little, but...)
Eleanor Estes (The Hundred Dresses, Pinky Pye, The Moffats, etc.)
Laura Ingalls Wilder (Little House in Big Woods, Little House on Prairie)
Edgar Eager (Half Magic, etc.)
Meindert de Jong (The Wheel on the School)
 

[Tracy]

Well, I guess I have been doing really well with read-alouds, because I have read almost all of these to her.   :hurray:

 

So how does the Hive feel about having your kids read books that have already been read to them?

 

 

Here are a few suggestions, but I'm not sure if they would be a good fit or not....

E. B White books (Trumpet of the Swan, Charlotte's Web, etc. We didn't care for Stuart Little, but...)
Eleanor Estes (The Hundred Dresses, Pinky Pye, The Moffats, etc.)
Laura Ingalls Wilder (Little House in Big Woods, Little House on Prairie)
Edgar Eager (Half Magic, etc.)
Meindert de Jong (The Wheel on the School)
 

 

[lewelma]

Second, I don't ever let them read anything but classics.

 

I don't require my children to read only novels;  So to me that sounds a bit limiting.

 
hee hee :lol: . My kids only reading novels.  Now that is funny.  I was just referring to building up skills in fiction.  If you want my opinions and techniques about building up skills in non-fiction, I have written *extensively* on that topic on this thread: Developing advanced reading skills   If you can't tell already, I really focus on reading over here because of my own personal experience.  It is one of my most important goals in my homeschool.
 
And thanks AVA and quark for being my defender while I was asleep!

Ruth in NZ (who woke up to find a lot to respond to!)

[Critterfixer]

I think children reading books that have already been read to them is AWESOME with a capital A much bigger than I can fit on the screen.

 

To me that is one of the main reasons to reading classic books aloud first. Things that good just have to be shared first, and savored together. Then devoured delightfully in one's own way.

[Kfamily]

5.) How do you know they read the book then? For example, yesterday my eldest read a chapter in a book during quiet time. I asked her to name the prince (a main character). She couldn't name him. She couldn't tell me anything about what she had just read. Maybe this question is more about how to develop attention and retention? But in our case my daughter had just looked at the pages, not read them, while her mind was busy elsewhere. How would you discover and manage that with step 5?

Four, six, and seven are excellent points. Four and seven are two I hadn't considered before. Thanks for the enlightenment!

 

After I read this, I was thinking that narrating after reading might help. This, to me, is one of the aspects of the Charlotte Mason style of teaching that I think can be valuable, even if someone doesn't fully embrace the whole CM approach. Attention is one of the habits on which CM and her approach focuses. I think that the idea of narrating CM-style is so often associated with the idea that the child just simply retells what was just read to him/her that it is forgotten that the child also narrates as they get older and can read books for themselves. When the child is younger the teacher reads and the child must pay attention and listen in order to narrate successfully. This begins the training of the habit of attention. As they get older and can read for themselves, the habit of attention (already developed and in place) knows that a narration will still follow their reading. This requires them to be attentive while they read in order to narrate successfully. To keep this process from taking too much from the idea of reading purely for pleasure, I like to keep a balance between books we use for lessons and books they read and do not have any requirements placed upon them aside from informal conversations. Also, it is very important to vary the style and type of narration work to keep simple retellings from becoming boring, tedious and/or not challenging enough. One method of varying narration work is to keep a jar with different narration prompts that the child pulls from the jar after reading. Some prompts have the students retell, some have them draw or paint a picture, some have them write a letter to a character in the story, etc. Sometimes the slip of paper might read that no narration is needed that day. But because they don't know what days will require narrations and which ones will not, they stay attentive while reading.These styles and types change as the student gets older. The jar idea can be replaced with a list of suggestions from which the older student can choose. (Also, obviously, other changes include the use of introducing literary analysis, discussions, essays, etc. with older students.)

[lewelma]

But overall, I'm a little depressed after reading this thread. Sort of feel very inadequate, and unhappy that my kids just are not up to reading at this level. It's sort of discouraging rather than encouraging.

What if I just removed the grade level? What if your kids were like me, and starting in 8th grade you gave them my list and told them to read it over 5 years. Would you consider a student well read by the end of highschool having read my list? I think you would.

Just start where they are at. I hit highschool and went straight into Cliff Notes because I was not given progressively more difficult material to build up my skill. So I simply did not EVER learn to read the books. Even now, I struggle and spend a lot more time listening to audiobooks than actually reading.

I wish I could remove the grades, but now so many people have referred to it that it is going to be confusing. But I will go back and put in the above qualifier to the list. (ETA: done, hopefully I made my goals clearer)

Sorry to discourage you. Please don't be.

[lewelma]

.

[Kfamily]

Well, I guess I have been doing really well with read-alouds, because I have read almost all of these to her.   :hurray:

 

So how does the Hive feel about having your kids read books that have already been read to them?

 

If you haven't read all of the books by these authors...Eager has quite a number of books and/or Estes too, these might make great books with which to start. She will already be very familiar with the style of writing. It would still give her fresh titles, but not be too new to her.

[Critterfixer]

I think it is the progression to reading the more difficult books that is daunting. I went into science, but had the good fortune to love literature. So I read a lot, but it still didn't really prepare me for thinking through literature. I'm learning more right now through my writing than I ever did learn in literature study. 

I think a lot of us had that experience, or like tracymirko, are concerned about not having enough experience and we want to do better, and to work with our children. But it seems scary to see the 10K program when we are barely slogging through a two mile run or haven't gotten off the couch yet.

 

But I know you didn't mean to be discouraging. And quark cheered me up.

[Rosie_0801]

I wonder if you could give an example.  I mean, can I really just google "classics similar to but slightly harder than American Girl?"   :huh:

 

I wouldn't have a clue what American Girl books are like, but you should buy her some Noel Streatfeild.

 

 

I hope my dd will grow up and reread the books I read to her! If it is a good book, it deserves to be reread! (Books have rights you know :p ) 

 

 

[Soror]

fwiw irt picking books I stalk lists online and threads on here, especially looking at those who seem to have similar interest and/or similar level. I watched Chrysalis Academy's recent thread on fantasy very closely because ds loves fantasy. A lot of times I'll just mentally file away suggestions and when I catch books at Goodwill I buy them, whether or not they are the right level and throw them on his shelf.

 

When making a list for the year I check out the big name lists AO, Angelicum/Great Books, Mater Ambilis, etc and cross reference. Next I read reviews on Amazon looking to see what I think he is ready for and will be interested in the most. To gauge the correct level I look at the books he's enjoyed recently and look them up on Amazon and scholastic book wizard and try to compare prospective books, looking for books around (sometimes over and sometimes under) the same level.. 

 

Also, while I try to find more books in genres he shows interest in I also just buy various good books. I don't have a lot of experience myself, so I just do the best I can. I would be and am intimidated if I think of all of those who know so much more but just reading and supplying good books seems to keep us progressing.

[Tracy]

I think it is the progression to reading the more difficult books that is daunting. I went into science, but had the good fortune to love literature. So I read a lot, but it still didn't really prepare me for thinking through literature. I'm learning more right now through my writing than I ever did learn in literature study. 

I think a lot of us had that experience, or like tracymirko, are concerned about not having enough experience and we want to do better, and to work with our children. But it seems scary to see the 10K program when we are barely slogging through a two mile run or haven't gotten off the couch yet.

 

But I know you didn't mean to be discouraging. And quark cheered me up.

^  This. Totally.  

 

 

I wouldn't have a clue what American Girl books are like, but you should buy her some Noel Streatfeild.

With all my book lists, I have never seen these.  She is going to love them.  

[quark]

:001_wub: Just had to say I love threads about reading. :001_wub:

[lewelma]

5.) How do you know they read the book then?

 

Well, this is something I have never had to deal with, I don't know why.  When read this post to my older son, he just stared at me and gaped (yes gaped, which is quite funny looking as he is currently wearing head gear with his braces :001_smile: ).  "What does she mean? Of course I read the books."

 

I have always taken the attitude that if a kid continues to read a book for an hour every day for 2 weeks and never asks to stop, they must at some level understand it or there would be complaints.   Now, my kids do not remember all books equally.  Some just stick better because there is a better personal connection.  So my older doesn't remember Great Expectations nearly as well as Count of Monte Cristo.  That is ok with me.

 

My kids do sometimes tell me about a book that I have not read, and as the books have gotten harder, my older likes to discuss them in an informal way.  But I don't do *literary analysis* with young kids. Basically, I took SWB's advice to wait until the logic stage.  And I did not find that waiting did any harm and possibly did a lot of good.  In contrast to SWB, I never required them to write summaries or even orally narrate the books.  Somehow that would just ruin it for them.  My goal was just for them to enjoy reading classics, which for *my* kids meant that there was no output required of them.  So yes we informally discuss them when the kid wants to, but no we don't do summaries, narrations, or literary analysis until they hit 6th grade.

 

 

 

For example, yesterday my eldest read a chapter in a book during quiet time. I asked her to name the prince (a main character). She couldn't name him. She couldn't tell me anything about what she had just read. Maybe this question is more about how to develop attention and retention? But in our case my daughter had just looked at the pages, not read them, while her mind was busy elsewhere. How would you discover and manage that with step 5?

 

If I found this when I asked some informal questions, I would definitely be more proactive.  I have had to work with this issue with nonfiction with my younger.  What I did was have us sit side by side on the sofa all snuggled up and each read a spread silently, then we would discuss what we learned.  So I was not reading to him nor he to me, but rather I was making sure that when he read silently, he actually comprehended.  When he did not understand, I would teach him how to realize he did not understand and how to go back and reread.  I also reinforced that this is not a sign of being a poor reader, in fact it is a sign of a very good reader.  You read and reread until to comprehend.  I used this technique for about 3 months.  Worked a charm.

 

[lewelma]

I get what tracymirko means. I don't like those sites. They do me no good when it comes to picking out something my boys will love. It's not just about the level of the reading, or the sentence structure or the ideas. It's themes that hamstring me. It's one thing to say my child loves dogs when he loves Hank the Cowdog. What he really loves is the rather goofy hero that the dog is! So I don't need to go look for books on dogs, but books with the western/tough/somewhat goofy hero. 

It isn't easy. I check out a lot of books that just don't get read.

 

Oh, I finally get it. I never just hand them a book and say 'go read this.' :blink: Instead, I talk up books for months in advance, so that by the time they get to the book I'm thinking of, they *want* to read it.  This also helps me make sure that they don't just read one genre, which makes it very hard to move between different classics.  I do use lists like AO. I find the level my child is at, read a few summaries on Amazon, pick a few I think he would like, and then start bringing them up in conversation. In contrast to others, I do link our reading to history, because then I can say when we are studying the American West,  'I have heard such great things about Call of the Wild.  It's about a dog who has adventures in Alaska.  Maybe we can both read it next month when we are studying the West.'  And then later I mention 'Nanna told me that she loved Call of the Wild as a child.  Did you know that it was published when she was 6?" And I just keep it up, week after week.  I celebrate books.  In addition, I found with my older that Caesar's English was great for talking up books, because there were all these wonderful words in quotes from classic books.  And my older was so excited to see when he had read one of the books, and it motivated him to want to read others.

 

So I will say it again, there is a huge psychological element to it.  You need to subtly and very slowly influence the way they perceive of the classics.

[Alte Veste Academy]

...I'm getting a sense that I need to increase expectations around here as well for ds and myself and it is a bit terrifying and exciting.

  

This is exactly where I was this time last year, when I was planning for DS11's 5th grade year!

[lewelma]

I think it is the progression to reading the more difficult books that is daunting. I went into science, but had the good fortune to love literature. So I read a lot, but it still didn't really prepare me for thinking through literature. I'm learning more right now through my writing than I ever did learn in literature study. 

I think a lot of us had that experience, or like tracymirko, are concerned about not having enough experience and we want to do better, and to work with our children. But it seems scary to see the 10K program when we are barely slogging through a two mile run or haven't gotten off the couch yet.

 

I'm a scientist.  The second classic I ever read (after the hobbit, which was my first) was when I was 35 and homeschooling my older.  As I have said, I only used the Cliff Notes in highschool, and I did not take a lit class in university.  So if I can do this, you can!  You can! You can!

 

Set a small goal: this month 1) read 1 classic to them, 2) let them listen to 1 classic, 3) have them read 1 classic.  Then you will be on your way. 

 

Start a thread, and get advice as to what these 3 books you could use for a successful introduction to literature for *your* children at their *individual* level.

 

I need a little cheerleading smily. This one is kind of close :hurray:
 

[Critterfixer]

I am feeling like we need a Couch to 5K program for the beginners.

I'm still shaking in my boots over the list, although I happen to love just about everything on it.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, I guess I have been doing really well with read-alouds, because I have read almost all of these to her.   :hurray:

 

So how does the Hive feel about having your kids read books that have already been read to them?

 

I've said it before, I LOVE it when my kids reread!  I love it when they reread things I've read aloud, and then ask for the sequels.  I love it when they reread the same books over and over, getting more immersed in the world and picking up more from them each time.  I think it's fantastic.

 

My 2nd grader - the one who has in the past resisted having "good" books read to her - loved The Trumpet of the Swan this year.  I was shocked, I didn't think it was her kinda book at all, but she wanted to read it after doing a WWE narration on it.  So we did, and she loved it.  Then I read her The Cricket in Times Square - again, totally thinking she'd dis it because it was a "good" book I wanted to read to her.  But no, she adored it, and she read it again by herself - two or three times - after I had read it to her.  She then proceeded to read to herself the whole set of George Selden Cricket books.  And she hasn't looked back since then!  

 

My 6th grader is currently re-reading the Harry Potter series . . . for the 5th time.  :leaving: I read them aloud to her when she was younger (as the movies were coming out), but this year, when she was 11, she just clicked with them in the most intense way.  Emma Watson/Hermione is her role model, idol, whatever, and she adores this series with a passion.  Now, if this were all she was reading, I might be a little  :glare:  but given she's read more than 120 other books this school year, I'm ok with it!  

 

She has also re-read Sherlock Holmes, Huck Finn, and the Chronicles of Narnia (done first as read-alouds), Tom Sawyer,  and a bunch of other things like that this year.  I think it's great that she's taking these things we've shared and making them her own.

[lewelma]

Thank you for the advice. I appreciate you taking the time to walk through a solution. I'll give that a try

  

I am feeling like we need a Couch to 5K program for the beginners.

 
I'm going to be big and braggy and link to this thread again.  Developing advanced reading skills  I and others described *very* specific techniques of how to ramp it up in nonfiction that might help you develop a plan for fiction too.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So how exactly does one know how to incrementally increase a student's reading level?

Let me rephrase the original question. How does one know which books to use to incrementally increase the student's reading ability? I don't have the vaguest notion how to figure out which book is incrementally more difficult than the book she is reading now.

It's themes that hamstring me. It's one thing to say my child loves dogs when he loves Hank the Cowdog. What he really loves is the rather goofy hero that the dog is! So I don't need to go look for books on dogs, but books with the western/tough/somewhat goofy hero. It isn't easy. I check out a lot of books that just don't get read.

I think it will be better if I spend more time discussing what they read with them. Perhaps it will give me more to go on when looking for classics that they have half a chance of loving.

In your shoes, I would just print out some or all of the many lists of classic kid lit that have been posted here over the years (anyone want to link some of those again? a favorite: http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/celoop/1000.html ), start checking them out from the library and read them. As many as you can, yourself. Or aloud. Or just skim them. Or let the kids skim them. Just get the books in the house, really.

Honestly, we are not really sequential, step-by-step progressors here. When there has been enough interest in a book or topic, they persevere. (ETA: So the reverse of this is true too, just to be clear! When there is not enough interest in a book or topic, they quit. I don't care, so long as they don't habitually always quit everything. LOL There are enough good books out there that I don't make them waste their time on ones they hate. Yet anyway... For things I feel they must be exposed to, if a particular book is important enough to me, I read it aloud.) Personally, I think it is OK to come home with 30 books and for the kids to only read one. And it is fine to try to get the theme right, but it is also OK to just go broad and wait for the themes to reappear on their own. Trial and error is an actual technique. LOL

Yeah, I sort of have an affinity for human help. Goofy me.

I do not mean this to be snarky, and people here will always help you out with recommendations (and rumor has it that most of us are human ;) ), but you can become that human for yourself. It takes time and energy to become familiar with the range of kid lit, but it is well worth the research. I have spent countless hours perusing book lists, using "look inside" on Amazon, and prereading lit from the library. It is like anything else; comfort increases through exposure.

[Critterfixer]

I did read through that, but it's been a bit. But I did not internalize it. Now I need to go back and take notes.

Bottom line I'm taking from this: I've got to be much more systematic when it comes to literature. Good thing I've got four years or so since they are finishing fourth grade.

[lewelma]

Well, I guess I have been doing really well with read-alouds, because I have read almost all of these to her. :hurray:

So how does the Hive feel about having your kids read books that have already been read to them?

I completely agree with Rose. Rereading is great! Both rereading books read to them and books they have independently read. I remember my older rereading Robin Hood. That is a hard book to actually read, much harder than listening to it, so I was thrilled. Just this month, my younger reread the Narnia series, and then when my older saw them laying around he decided to too (took him only a few hours for all of them). Then my younger asked for me to get out Watership Down because he wanted to reread that too. But now he is reading a new book.

I have never found it to be a continuous process where they only read the same 10 books their whole life or anything.

[stripe]

So on a whim, I searched and got this:

What Should I Read Next?

 

I don't know if the results will suit your taste exactly though...it is not human, and limited by search algorithms but there might be more of such tools out there I am not aware of. E.g. a friend swears by Good Reads. I am just too lazy to sign up. :)

I've found really bizarre suggestions through sites like this. Like, if I put in Charlotte's Web, it suggests Plato's Republic. Okay, not quite, but strangely unrelated. (Okay, just for the heck of it, I tried Charlotte's Web. Sure, there are reasonable suggestions, but also One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish and Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde -- seriously! I'd never have thought those two could have turned up on the same list!)

[Critterfixer]

Time and energy is a factor. I seem to be a little low on both these days.

I actually do read the classics to my boys. Our last read aloud was LOTR. We got bogged down in The Return of the King, so we didn't get through that one. The last book they finished was The 21 Balloons, which one liked, the other despised. I didn't like it.

We don't listen to many classics on audio because they are difficult to find through our library (I have to go to one about 2 hours away to get most of them) and listening on the computer is very annoying because of bad internet connection.

So we do read. Just nowhere near where I'd like us to be.

 

And I do think ya'll are human, and a much better source of reasonable book suggestions that any internet site I've met yet.

 

Actually, I think I may have that list printed out somewhere. I'll have to go look for it. I'll check out some of the book lists too, and see what I can scrounge up. It's sometimes very overwhelming to look through all the lists, but I'm at least familiar with a lot of them. But boy, if I wasn't...it sure would be hard to pick and choose.