S/o Duggar thread...

[MFG]

Can you point me in the direction of somewhere I can read about that? In a private message if you prefer?

http://hushmoney.org/RC_Sproul_Jr-defrocking-docs.htm

This site is a little out there but does link to the actual documents.

[albeto.]

And even worse....how many have completely walked away...,or ran away from Christianity, because THIS is it's public face??

 

It certainly doesn't help.  ;)

[Liz CA]

So, if HSLDA advocates ATI(. ....and I am sure it does since the one and only time I attended a convention in my state...LEAH is totally ATI, which i did not know ....Came home from the convention, which I thought would fire me up, depressed for months! I came home feeling inadequate and doomed to hell....no joke!). HSLDA and the ATI people were all buddy, buddy....

 

 

Does that mean Marcia Somerville of Tapestry of Grace is also ATI since her husband is one of their attorneys? I use more and

 

 

This is really deeper than I had ever imagined. I am really feeling like a big fat dumb@ss.

 

Ick, ick! Ick!

 

Take a deep breath. :)  If your children have just read some material but it has not been hammered into their minds or lived out in your family, it's doubtful they will be affected. I had never even heard of ATI and only marginally heard of "Gothardites" while I still homeschooled and there was likely something that had crept onto our shelves. Ds is 22 now and I don't think he has taken any harm anymore than he was harmed by curricula choices that didn't fit his learning style. We corrected mistakes and moved on.

I understand the "icky" feeling but you obviously have the discernment to distinguish one from the other. Trust yourself to weed things out that are inappropriate for your children.

[Mary in VA]

 

Look for any reports on the Ligonier No Compromises National Conference 2013 with Sproul Jr. Alistair Begg, and Steven Lawson...there is a DVD set if memory serves.

 

 

Faith,

I had a question about this comment from yesterday.  This conference was run by R.C. Sproul's ministry and had many renowned speakers.  Are you saying the conference itself was about, or from a view point of, Dominion theology?  Also, do all the speakers hold to that view?  I would run from R.C. Sproul, Jr., Doug Wison, and their buddies, but there are speakers listed for that conference who are well known theologians who I respect and trust. I haven't been able to find anything linking them to Dominion theology, e.g. Alistair Begg, Ravi Zacharias.

Thanks,

Mary

[Liz CA]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: I am so sorry!

 

This is why I speak out about this stuff. Gothard and his ilk are very prominent at many state homeschool conventions now. We have friends that would be Gothard followers today if it weren't for one thing...the clothes. I'm not kidding, they literally agreed with just about everything else but she wasn't going to give up her pants, and he was not going to dress up and wear ties or have uber short hair all the time. Years later she always said, "Thank God for pants and long hair!"

 

People who have never had it singe them, think I'm on a witch hunt when I call it out. That's okay. I'm so very, very glad for them that their lives have never been touched by it. But, they are mistaken if they think this worldview is fringe and remote. We generally bemoan on this board that the homeschool conventions are hardly worth going to anymore because all of the speakers are aligned with teaching "lifestyle" and all manner of things that aren't about education...that the vendor halls are filled with everything from essential oils, to bee pollen, to off grid living products, to.....instead of being about curriculum, about books, about educational helps. We've talked about this A LOT! There is a reason for this, and it is because this worldview has begun to dominate the public face of homeschooling.

 

Very good points. And like Faithe and perhaps others, much of the material I saw (without even knowing what I saw back then) looked good because it seemed to guarantee a problem-free life, straight arrow children, etc. This is where the biblical warning of "using our discernment" comes in IMHO. Fortunately, we were only witnesses to some Gothardite customs but never got sucked in. I may have been more in danger of it than dh and for that I should be eternally grateful to him. As I got older, grew up a little more spiritually, I realized that I can trust myself more in distinguishing true from false.

 

I just don't want anyone to beat themselves up even more because they realized they have some ATI philosophy on their shelves. I have made a lot of curruculum choices that I corrected later on. Those that feel their children have been exposed to a worrisome degree, take heart, have many conversations about what you believe or not believe and perhaps most importantly about what the Bible really says (and does not say).

[mommaduck]

I wouldn't place Ravi Z. in that category. I still like him. I think he's one of the few that I actually do like.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, if a product I purchased or considered purchasing turns out not to meet my worldview, that's fine. If it goes against my morals but they're trying to hide it, yes, I have a problem with it. If I found out a company I bought stuff from endorsed racism, child labor, or infringing workers' rights, I'd quickly stop purchasing from them. This is really no different. 

 

Actually, yes, it is different. It's not just that one's purchase funds organizations that are despicable, but also that their views could, through some curricula, impact my children's worldview. It's spreading the poison. Within one's own family, no less.

 

This is purely theoretical from my side. I am perfectly sure that I am comfortable using all the curricula we are using. I don't think I (European) have ever come into contact with anything described here. Reading about these organizations means that will stay that way. I feel the same way about Waldorf, which is covertly racist and all kinds of weird. 

I have no problem with people seeing these books their attendant philosophy as being wrong.  I agree.  I have no problem with getting rid of those materials or not buying them to begin with.  I do have a bit of an eyebrow lift at the idea that a toy bought from one of these companies brings evil into my home.  I understand not wanting to fund the companies.  But if you've already bought the toy and can't return it, then . . . it's just a toy.  Throw it out if you want to, but I'm not going to.  I don't think that way.

 

Sure, look at materials to see what they teach - not just overtly but also the presuppositions and worldview behind it.  I think you should do that anyway and not just when you see a "threat".  My kids are older now so I'm also comfortable doing what others have mentioned - discussing differences in opinion as they come up.  I wasn't comfortable doing that when my kids were little.  Even with older kids though there are some materials that are so steeped in their particular worldview that you would spend all your time discussing problems with them - that isn't worth it to me and I wouldn't waste my time on such materials.  

 

What I was objecting to were all the emotionally laden words and a feeling of hysteria from this thread.  

[MFG]

I have no problem with people seeing these books their attendant philosophy as being wrong. I agree. I have no problem with getting rid of those materials or not buying them to begin with. I do have a bit of an eyebrow lift at the idea that a toy bought from one of these companies brings evil into my home. I understand not wanting to fund the companies. But if you've already bought the toy and can't return it, then . . . it's just a toy. Throw it out if you want to, but I'm not going to. I don't think that way.

 

 

 

What I was objecting to were all the emotionally laden words and a feeling of hysteria from this thread.

I don't see how this substantially differs from worrying about demon possessed Cabbage Patch dolls. And when many diverse names and organizations are thrown around, the specter of guilt-by-association raises its ugly head.

[sunflowerlady]

I took the comments about bad vibes or whatever from these materials as being hyperbole or sort of humorous. I don't think anyone believes an actual evil spirit is in their homes. They are just surprised and dismayed at the far reaching aspect of these teachings in the home school community.

[albeto.]

I don't see how this substantially differs from worrying about demon possessed Cabbage Patch dolls. And when many diverse names and organizations are thrown around, the specter of guilt-by-association raises its ugly head.

 

It's not about inundating your space with evil spirts that piggy-pack on tangible items as they cross the threshold into your home, its about raising your children in an environment of misogyny and patriarchy and oppression and dominionism. It's about them learning from mentors (from educational material to the beloved characters in a book they naturally learn to identify with) that the place of a girl is identified by her sexual/reproductive services. It's about modeling to a boy how to disregard the thoughts and ideas and concerns that are expressed by someone who is not one of "us." It's about inspiring an exhausted new mother to learn to internalize that which is unpleasant, embrace her oppression, and respect her oppressor. It's about motivating one to become their own "thought police" so that thoughts and desires and hopes and dreams and fears and worries which do not support the Stockholm Syndrome is met with guilt, remorse, and repentance. Of course, there are those who will argue about whether or not this reflects taking on this ideology the right way, or taking it on the wrong way. Interestingly, there is no objective measure by which one can determine if she is following this ideology rightly or wrongly. There is only the well-meaning advice and support of those she loves and trusts. And that can go in either direction, and that, as I understand it, is what the OP is talking about purging from her familial environment. 

[Mommyfaithe]

My problem, in a nutshell with this stuff is it is not forthcoming. IOW, we have been sold goods which say they are one thing, but are truly another. This is not a purge all bad things post.... Mine is more of a What the heck???post.

 

I am not talking about the books and materials that come right out and say" we are a conservative Christian curriculum and this is our belief ( A Beka, Bob. Jones, Christian Light etc.). And yeah, some of those books make me want to bleach my brain, but I know and you know what they stand for. A Beka is nonabashedly patriotic and Christian. They are creation science. No surprises. CLE is Mennonite... Head covering, pacifist unabashedly Christian. Ok. I can certainly see where they are at. No surprises of any big deal.....

I can work within the parameters of their books.... Or not as I see fit. I am not talking about these books.

 

I am not talking about banned books, or books that have ideas contrary to my own. I am a big girl. I know what I wish to spend time on what what either gets shelved or trashed or skipped over. I am not freaked out by too much and I am WAY more liberal than most of my Christian friends and probably more liberal than many of my non Christian friends.

 

I do not think the books have some kind of spirituality where they are going to jump off the shelf and have my wild child come to the dinner table in a suit and tie!

 

What I AM saying is DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!! These books are not harmless. The curricula sold by these companies are not pure and simple. There is an underlying theme. Know it is there. Deal with it as you like. I had no idea! The damned books did not come with a warning or a user manual. I am sure there are new homeschoolers and new Christians who would see these books as wholesome. As a map of how to lead their families. I almost feel it would be morally wrong NOT to have this conversation!

The surface seems so kind and loving and wholesome and moral and oh so GODLY.!

Their goal is to get the new Christian. The one who is seeking to know Him. Their goal is wicked to the nth degree. Why would I EVER want to put one more cent toward their agenda??? Why would anyone?? Why wouldn't I want to tell my sister in The Lord to run like all getout from this lie from the pit of hell??

 

The toy gun has nothing to do with this other than a purchase. You know this is a crummy company. Buy your toy guns somewhere else :-). There is a plethora of curricula out there. Buy with a discerning eye. Modify if you need to./ toss when warranted. No one is saying to get hysterical. Or that dolls or books are possessed. Guilt by association happens. Be careful who your friends are ;-). I know I am not the only one on this board or out there in homeschool land who is just pissed about these people setting themselves up as our voice or our face. This is what our homeschool convention looked like 15 years ago. I could never bring myself to go to another so I have no idea what it looks like now.

 

When I didn't know I couldn't do better. Now I know.

Sorry this is so disjointed. I am in my phone and writing while I wait for kids.

[Mommyfaithe]

It's not about inundating your space with evil spirts that piggy-pack on tangible items as they cross the threshold into your home, its about raising your children in an environment of misogyny and patriarchy and oppression and dominionism. It's about them learning from mentors (from educational material to the beloved characters in a book they naturally learn to identify with) that the place of a girl is identified by her sexual/reproductive services. It's about modeling to a boy how to disregard the thoughts and ideas and concerns that are expressed by someone who is not one of "us." It's about inspiring an exhausted new mother to learn to internalize that which is unpleasant, embrace her oppression, and respect her oppressor. It's about motivating one to become their own "thought police" so that thoughts and desires and hopes and dreams and fears and worries which do not support the Stockholm Syndrome is met with guilt, remorse, and repentance. Of course, there are those who will argue about whether or not this reflects taking on this ideology the right way, or taking it on the wrong way. Interestingly, there is no objective measure by which one can determine if she is following this ideology rightly or wrongly. There is only the well-meaning advice and support of those she loves and trusts. And that can go in either direction, and that, as I understand it, is what the OP is talking about purging from her familial environment.

Thanks!! I was not talking about toy guns or books possessing demonic qualities...lol! I was not even really focused on purging...that was sort of tongue in cheek. Those sexist, racist materials never lasted too long past my front door...whether they were supposedly christian or secular or whatever...no room at the inn for garbage.....and as far as hysteria...nope, not from me.

 

Oh, we kept our Davy Crockett rifles and coon skin caps. My daughters loved them. ;-)

[jewellsmommy]

My problem, in a nutshell with this stuff is it is not forthcoming. IOW, we have been sold goods which say they are one thing, but are truly another. This is not a purge all bad things post.... Mine is more of a What the heck???post.

 

I am not talking about the books and materials that come right out and say" we are a conservative Christian curriculum and this is our belief ( A Beka, Bob. Jones, Christian Light etc.). And yeah, some of those books make me want to bleach my brain, but I know and you know what they stand for. A Beka is nonabashedly patriotic and Christian. They are creation science. No surprises. CLE is Mennonite... Head covering, pacifist unabashedly Christian. Ok. I can certainly see where they are at. No surprises of any big deal.....

I can work within the parameters of their books.... Or not as I see fit. I am not talking about these books.

 

I am not talking about banned books, or books that have ideas contrary to my own. I am a big girl. I know what I wish to spend time on what what either gets shelved or trashed or skipped over. I am not freaked out by too much and I am WAY more liberal than most of my Christian friends and probably more liberal than many of my non Christian friends.

 

I do not think the books have some kind of spirituality where they are going to jump off the shelf and have my wild child come to the dinner table in a suit and tie!

 

What I AM saying is DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!! These books are not harmless. The curricula sold by these companies are not pure and simple. There is an underlying theme. Know it is there. Deal with it as you like. I had no idea! The damned books did not come with a warning or a user manual. I am sure there are new homeschoolers and new Christians who would see these books as wholesome. As a map of how to lead their families. I almost feel it would be morally wrong NOT to have this conversation!

The surface seems so kind and loving and wholesome and moral and oh so GODLY.!

Their goal is to get the new Christian. The one who is seeking to know Him. Their goal is wicked to the nth degree. Why would I EVER want to put one more cent toward their agenda??? Why would anyone?? Why wouldn't I want to tell my sister in The Lord to run like all getout from this lie from the pit of hell??

 

The toy gun has nothing to do with this other than a purchase. You know this is a crummy company. Buy your toy guns somewhere else :-). There is a plethora of curricula out there. Buy with a discerning eye. Modify if you need to./ toss when warranted. No one is saying to get hysterical. Or that dolls or books are possessed. Guilt by association happens. Be careful who your friends are ;-). I know I am not the only one on this board or out there in homeschool land who is just pissed about these people setting themselves up as our voice or our face. This is what our homeschool convention looked like 15 years ago. I could never bring myself to go to another so I have no idea what it looks like now.

 

When I didn't know I couldn't do better. Now I know.

Sorry this is so disjointed. I am in my phone and writing while I wait for kids.

 

This does make a lot of sense. I get it. I think one problem in this way of doing things is in the labels. If I wrote a math curriculum or a book on gardening and said that I am a conservative Christian, you have 2 problems. One, I may have an excellent way of doing something that would benefit you and maybe I managed to keep a majority of my worldview out of it and you would be missing out on a wonderful curriculum or gardening tip because you assume that I am _______ because I labeled myself. Two, I have no idea what to label myself. I consider myself rather conservative, but compared to some, I'm downright liberal. I just learned that I lean more toward arminian beliefs over calvinist beliefs but I am actually somewhere inbetween. 

 

I think we need to be careful with evaluating through association. You might find yourself really off the mark if you tried to pin down my beliefs based on the fact that I use TOG. I saw it being questioned upthread, as an example.

 

I am all for illuminating hidden agendas wherever they do actually exist, but I think educating people to be discerning over all the material they read, glean from, or teach with instead of looking for key words or associations is more helpful. I see it as the difference between giving a person some fish vs teaching them how to fish.

 

I do support the effort of exposing evil for evil so that it cannot continue to be supported either physically, emotionally or financially.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

This does make a lot of sense. I get it. I think one problem in this way of doing things is in the labels. If I wrote a math curriculum or a book on gardening and said that I am a conservative Christian, you have 2 problems. One, I may have an excellent way of doing something that would benefit you and maybe I managed to keep a majority of my worldview out of it and you would be missing out on a wonderful curriculum or gardening tip because you assume that I am _______ because I labeled myself. <snip>

 

I think we need to be careful with evaluating through association. You might find yourself really off the mark if you tried to pin down my beliefs based on the fact that I use TOG. I saw it being questioned upthread, as an example.

 

I am all for illuminating hidden agendas wherever they do actually exist, but I think educating people to be discerning over all the material they read, glean from, or teach with instead of looking for key words or associations is more helpful. I see it as the difference between giving a person some fish vs teaching them how to fish.

 

Early in my homeschooling career, I would have agreed with this more than I do now.

 

The trouble is that homeschooling conventions ask these curriculum authors to speak on religious and lifestyle matters. You might have the perfect math curriculum, but if I hear you speak at a homeschooling convention and you are disrespectful and rude about my political or religious beliefs or are misogynistic or share a story that you appear to have missed the real message in or talk smack about other curriculum providers, claiming they aren't Christian enough, etc? Then, I will probably cease giving you my money, will find another math curriculum and will not recommend your curriculum to others because I don't want people to think I am okay with the ideas *I personally heard you spout*.

 

And I have even been present when speakers at homeschool conventions have asked the person recording a speech/talk/Q&A session to stop recording so that some of the things they say are never on the record. None of us could prove they said those things, even when we saw and heard it ourselves. Do you see what I mean? This is *exactly* why it is so damaging to the homeschooling community to make conventions about lifestyle instead of teaching.

[Susan C.]

Well, let me tell you what happened today..... Dd20 comes home from college philosophy class. She tells of the discussion, then makes the remark that "all men are created equal" is in the Bible. I said nope, try the Declaration of Independence. Thank you <conservative book publisher that will remain unnamed>. No, they did not come right out and say that was in the Bible, but with their materials, it definitely can be implied that the idea is Biblical. And to a point, it is, but there are so many variables that are not discussed. So yes, the stuff does stick. I used those publishers back in the day, I only changed at the end of my youngest homeschooling. So there has been some "undoing" going on over here.

[jewellsmommy]

Early in my homeschooling career, I would have agreed with this more than I do now.

 

The trouble is that homeschooling conventions ask these curriculum authors to speak on religious and lifestyle matters. You might have the perfect math curriculum, but if I hear you speak at a homeschooling convention and you are disrespectful and rude about my political or religious beliefs or are misogynistic or share a story that you appear to have missed the real message in or talk smack about other curriculum providers, claiming they aren't Christian enough, etc? Then, I will probably cease giving you my money, will find another math curriculum and will not recommend your curriculum to others because I don't want people to think I am okay with the ideas *I personally heard you spout*.

 

And I have even been present when speakers at homeschool conventions have asked the person recording a speech/talk/Q&A session to stop recording so that some of the things they say are never on the record. None of us could prove they said those things, even when we saw and heard it ourselves. Do you see what I mean? This is *exactly* why it is so damaging to the homeschooling community to make conventions about lifestyle instead of teaching.

 

I think it is a wise decision to base your decision to purchase or not purchase based on hearing an author speak or by reading their opinion on a matter on their blog or similar. That is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that people should actively discern and then act. The above decision would not have come from the fact that this author had lunch with a Gothard supporter or her curriculum was mentioned on someones blog who also reads Pearl books. Your decision is based on what you heard, saw, or read from the author. And if you were my friend and told me what you witnessed at a convention, I would take you at your word and make my decision accordingly because it is an eyewitness account that testifies to the author's own thoughts and word and character. But that is different then you telling me that this author's husband is someone who once was seen at an ATI booth or whatever. That's all I'm suggesting.

[Katy]

Well, let me tell you what happened today..... Dd20 comes home from college philosophy class. She tells of the discussion, then makes the remark that "all men are created equal" is in the Bible. I said nope, try the Declaration of Independence. Thank you <conservative book publisher that will remain unnamed>. No, they did not come right out and say that was in the Bible, but with their materials, it definitely can be implied that the idea is Biblical. And to a point, it is, but there are so many variables that are not discussed. So yes, the stuff does stick. I used those publishers back in the day, I only changed at the end of my youngest homeschooling. So there has been some "undoing" going on over here.

 

I think a lot of Calvinists would argue that "all men are NOT created equal" is more biblical, or at least more in line with Romans 9:21.

[Guest]

I really agree here. Where are all those To Train Up a Child books now? Where? Mine is in the wood stove, but what about the thousands sent overseas or to military families, or very young new Christians, trying to be GOOD Christians??

 

I bought it! I wanted to be good. I wanted my kids to have good, honest, moral Christ filled lives. I wanted structure in our chaos. I wanted stability in our unstableness. I wanted a family where we could avoid the hurts and pitfalls around us.....and the Pearls, Ezzos, Gothard, etc.offered that. Displayed it. Held it out like a carrot on a stick. I believed most of what they said. I never did much of what they suggested because it was not in my nature. ( I am an attachment, bf on demand, non spanking parent) so, I felt I had blew it when my kids acted like.....kids. I felt demeaned and devalued as a woman and a mom because I could not even follow the damn formula correctly! Then when I had a 2nd trimester miscarriage, I really believed it was from my own sin and I deserved to lose my precious baby.

 

This is the crap they purport. This is what they sell and make a wonderful living off. This is preying on the weak and vulnerable in the most disgusting way!

 

My family never went to an ATI seminar. This mindset was pervasive in the Christian homeschool movement of the early 90's. We were prime for the taking. We didn't want our kids " ruined" by secular schooling. We didn't want moral decay in our homes. We were seeking other answers....and when you seek, you better be wearing some awesome armor....because " There are giants in the land! "

(((Mommyfaithe))) this just makes my heart ache. It is so true. I think one of the destructive things about this type of "teaching" such as Gothard is that parents believe if they just do x, y and z correctly, they will raise ideal and wonderful children and never have troubles. I see this with my own parents...and they *still* react with improper guilt for the "failures" of their ADULT children; my youngest sibling is 31! My parents were not heavy followers of Gothard, but these materials were promoted at the school I attended until 6th grade. In fact, we left the school abruptly because the pastor/principal went on a witch-hunt of sorts...we were all, every student, supposed to sign an agreement for conduct in all kinds of areas (not just at the school; this was meant to be our lifestyle). Fortunately, my parents thought some items were extreme and not things they were going to enforce, so they had us refuse to sign. That was the end of that.

 

I do actually have a big CharacterSketches book that my parents bought back then. I was always so fond of the book, because I was an artist and nature lover, so I loved looking at the animals and reading about them. I think my folks probably thought it was great that I pored over that book so often, but I know

I never read the Bible Story parts; i don't think I ever realized it was supposed to show how animals reflect certain character traits.

[Mommyfaithe]

Yes Danielle...the formula. And I still feel inadequate at my children's faults and failures even though my oldest is almost 28! I really do not believe there is any real recipe, but love, relationship and loads of grace are more than sufficient. I learned to respect myself and my children, imperfections and all ;-)

 

And thank you so much for sharing. It sounds like you have some pretty great parents!

[Laurie4b]

I don't see how this substantially differs from worrying about demon possessed Cabbage Patch dolls. And when many diverse names and organizations are thrown around, the specter of guilt-by-association raises its ugly head.

 

Yes, it's the guilt-by-association that concerns me most in this thread. It's the way rumors get started and the reputations of people get wrongly damaged.