New to board...intro and questions about ADHD and language disabilities

[Teri H.; Oregon]

Hi all,

 

A little background.....I have been homeschooling for over 15 years, with three kids still at home and two kids graduated - one of which is in college and the other trying to find his place in the world.  I had it all figured out <*sarcasm* Do we ever?> and then was thrown a curve ball that I don't know how to handle. 

 

We recently had my 13 year old tested for educational issues and he came back with a diagnosis of ADHD with an inattentive disorder.  He also came back with very poor processing speeds that have hampered his math and writing fluency.  His tester gave him a written diagnosis of a "Written Language Learning Disability" so that in the event he went on to college, and accommodations needed to be made, the schools would have a written diagnosis to support that.  My problem is I don't know what direction to go in order to address this.  After talking to the psychologist I tried to find out if this falls under Dysgraphia, but she hmmm and hawed and said she really hesitated to put him in that category.  She kept going back to his low processing speeds impacting his fluency in subjects.  His IQ tested out average, but his perceptual reasoning skills were off the chart.  She said in all the years she has tested she has never seen them that high.  He is definitely an out of the box thinker.

 

I really don't know what to do with this.....

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or materials they could point me to in addressing this issue?

 

Thanks for any help or direction you could give me,

 

Teri

 

 

[PeterPan]

Hmm, not sure what to say on the normal kids, not having a NT myself.  :D  Sorry for the shock.  When did you find out?  The spatial stuff is pretty common, and you'll see terms floated like right-brain dominant, VSL, blah blah.  It's all true and yes it probably explains what's going on.  Did she give you an adjusted IQ so you have a better sense of his true IQ when you exclude the disabilities?

 

My dd has low processing speed too.  If you don't mind, I'm just utterly curious, what is your ds' percentile?  Seems like in the 30's is pretty common with these kids, but we've heard as low as single digits here on the board.  Interestingly, one of the people with single digits did IM (interactive metronome) and got those scores to bump.  

 

When you say you don't know what to do with it, what do you mean?  You have a problem you want to address, like how to get writing to go better?  Or you're wanting to know if there's something you should be adding in because of these new found strengths?  Absolutely to both.  Tell us your academic problem and you'll get tons of options from people.  On the strengths thing, we've had some book lists threads recently, so you could search for those.  I have Hallowell's Super Parenting book on my nightstand.  Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides is amazing.  Bright, Not Broken is terrific.  Freed's RightBrained Children in a Left-Brained World may help you connect a lot of dots, and Cindy Gaddis' Right Side of Normal is just what some people need to free themselves of thinking of their kids as defective and embracing them as whole and able to do things.  (I split with Gaddis on therapy stuff, but that's already commonly known on the board.  Just a disclaimer there.)

 

Heathermomster has posted metronome homework, and I'll just throw out that that and switching to the Dvorak keyboard layout were the TWO BEST THINGS I did for my dd's writing.  She blasted off after those two things, and that was last year, same age, 13.  

 

Welcome to the boards!  Dig in and research.  It will be sort of a self-journey too for you, as you learn where they got their genes and connect other dots.  It takes time to sort stuff out.  We got our evals late too.  Dd was in 7th, and by 8th we were ready to start using the information and making major changes.  This year, 9th, has been really terrific.  You'll get there too.  :)

[Teri H.; Oregon]

Thanks for asking those questions OhElizabeth as I really didn't even know what I wanted to know! :) 

 

We just got the report back last week.  I've kind of had in the back of my mind something just wasn't right for a while now.  I thought maybe it was me not teaching him well enough, but when he kept sliding back in his studies I started getting really concerned.  He just wasn't recalling stuff we had covered time and again, and I couldn't figure out what was going on.  

 

I think I read something about the interactive metronome, but at that time I didn't know he had a problem with processing speed.  I have been so overwhelmed by all of the information that I really didn't know what I needed to address or start with.  I guess that is what I mean by I didn't know what to do with it.  His processing speed came in at 9%.  Your questions were good, and I think after reading them maybe a good place to start is trying to improve his processing speed.     Fluency seems to be his main issue on being behind, so if we improve his processing speed will that help his fluency? 

 

How do I deal with his memory?  That came in at the 60th percentile.

 

When you ask about his adjusted IQ would that be referred to the full scale IQ? 

 

He struggles with math.  Right now he is MUS Delta.

He seems to be doing well with FLL level 3.

I think I need to find a composition program.  We are using Classical Composition.  It works well with my daughter, but I wonder if I need to do something that breaks things down a little more for him...

 

So is this a right brain issue?  I noticed I am finding a lot of stuff referring to that.

 

Thank you for your encouragement!

 

 

[Lecka]

Is fluency, reading fluency, or all kinds of fluency? 

 

Since she said written is a problem -- he could have a strength in either auditory, or in pictures. 

 

Auditory is listening instead of reading.

 

Pictures is -- would he do better with a brainstorming kind of picture, with some words and circles and arrows, to explain something, compared to reading a page-long description of the same information. 

 

Another thought, instead of asking him to memorize things, could you have prompts available for him?  Like a cheat sheet?  Or a poster on the wall with some information on it? 

 

I second the recommendation for Dyslexic Advantage.  I think you might really like it.  I have not read the other books mentioned.  Dyslexic Advantage might have a lot of ideas, and I think it might have ideas about the high perceptual skills, too.  That is such a good strength to have!

 

 

[Heathermomster]

OP, when I read your posting my first thoughts were that your DS is a 2e dysgraphic. It also sounds to me like the psychologist is not accustomed to 2e kids and their scores, and with good reason I suppose...2e kids have crazy scores.

 

Low processing looks like ADD in my home. DS's NP would not give the diagnosis of ADD because his profile scores with the Connors Assessment didn't meet the requirements, high asynchronous academic achievement, and the fact that he's a boy.

 

DS types just about everything. We use IEW for writing with an O-G tutor and have done so for two years. We don't use any SWB language materials because they don't suit his learning style.

 

Whatever writing program that you use, ensure that it is taught slowly and explicitly. Explore using mindmaps. DS uses audio books and graph paper for math.

 

For memory work when DS was little, he learned best by clapping, stomping, and singing. Now that he is older, he requires time to see the material repeatedly, and he's developed coping strategies. He excels in his vocab class because it is very competitive and like a game. We creates index cards for vocab using an online index card maker.

 

Eta: It would be helpful to know your son's WM score from the IQ test. WM should be taken into account when working with these kiddos.

 

IRT fluency, remediated adult dyslexics generally read slower. That is why many reading capable dyslexics use audio books in an academic setting.

[wapiti]

OP, when I read your posting my first thoughts were that your DS is a 2e dysgraphic. It also sounds to me like the psychologist is not accustomed to 2e kids and their scores, and with good reason I suppose...2e kids have crazy scores.

 

These were my first two thoughts as well.  My gut sense is that there may be more going on here than simply low processing speed (as if it's ever simple, but that's another story).  

 

For example, I have more than one kid with that combo of low processing speed and high perceptual reasoning, and it so happens that they're great at math - my understanding is that that ability is basically what is indicated by the PR score.  So if your ds has a very high PR and yet is struggling with math, I wonder what else is going on.  Some sort of sequential weakness?  A vision thing?  A language glitch that interferes with instruction?  There may be a number of possibilities.

 

If your tester wasn't very experienced with 2e, I would strongly recommend getting a consultation on those scores from another psych who is.  The easiest way to find one is usually to find a psych who specializes in gifted testing, as there are lots of 2e kids among those.  The analysis of the subtest scores can get quite tricky.  (LOL, I was told my kids are "complicated"....)

 

Eta, how did his verbal comprehension score compare to PR?  Did the tester explain why she did not calculate a GAI instead of a Full-scale IQ?  There are certain rules about when to calculate GAI instead of Full-scale, having to do with the spread of VC vs PR on the one hand and then comparing them to WM and PS.  However, there are less-experienced psychs who don't even pay attention to the GAI option and inappropriately give a Full-scale when they should have calculated the GAI instead.

[kbutton]

 

When you ask about his adjusted IQ would that be referred to the full scale IQ? 

 

 

 

The GAI was mentioned in another response--this is the number to look for. If you didn't receive this number, and you are the intrepid sort, you can find documents online to help you calculate it yourself using the other scores. The documents should also explain the circumstances under which you should use that number (it's not always appropriate). If your son's perceptual reasoning scores are high enough, you might also need to look into the extended norms (I think the scores need to be somewhere in the 16 and above range for this, but it varies from subtest to subtest). I think the documents explaining how to use both scales are put out by the same people that make the test.

 

My older kiddo's first WISC test had so many highs and lows that the GAI wasn't really much different. A later test showed more stable scores, and the GAI was a better assessment that time. My younger son would've looked really bad without a GAI (and while we've not pinned him down well, he's the kind of kid that knows how to multiply without being told, etc.). My younger one has a processing score at the 9th percentile. Interestingly enough, we were told to give him some fast moving video games to help with this. It's only been a couple of months since he was tested, so I don't know if this has been effective or not yet.

 

The biggest place I notice processing speed is when he has to take in a lot of information at once, or when he is learning a new skill. He's only six, so new skills abound. When he was starting to learn to write, I thought we were NEVER going to achieve automaticity with any letters or numbers (we worked on the number 8 for months when he was 5--meanwhile, he was carrying and borrowing 3 digit problems using manipulatives!). We spent insane amounts of time on just a couple letters at a time. Something finally clicked, and while he's still got some glitches, reinforcing that he needed to make the letters the same way every single time, and then watching and coaching him through them has paid off big time. I've noticed that other slow processors I know tend to be very inefficient (they reinvent the wheel every dang time they do something), and taking the time to show them an efficient way to do something, helping them see why it helps, and then helping them practice makes a big difference. That's a little vague, I know, when your kid is working on totally different skills, but having a clear strategy helps with efficiency, at least in our house. Convincing someone that you might have an easier way is a bit difficult though!

[PeterPan]

I'm not a psych, but like the others I'm surprised you didn't get a GAI.  Has she given you the written report yet?  Sometimes they meet with you and then mail the written report a couple weeks later.  That may give you more to work with.  If you already have that you might list here what the tests and scores were and see if anyone who's good with interpreting them (not me) can help you.  

 

Is there anything he's especially good at or likes to do?  If he has something like that, I'd probably harness that for his writing, grammar, etc. and hang the curricula entirely.  The classical composition programs are all boring as sin, sorry.  Somehow people have taken WTM/SWB's comment that we shouldn't *force* kids to be creative to mean we needn't BOTHER.  I think this totally misses the boat with these kids.  If you give them something in context, something they're interested in or have a use for, sometimes they come alive.  Does he type?  Does he have an email account?  My dd struggled with QWERTY for years and years, so I finally put her over to Dvorak.  I had this terrible moment, around when she was 12, where I realized she might not end up comfortable with handwriting OR typing, and then where would she be?  Ack!  I switched her to Dvorak, gave her an email account and user account on the computer, and locked it so it ONLY worked in Dvorak, hehe.  Then I paid her.  She went from pecking around 8 wpm to typing properly at 40+ wpm in about 3 months, hallelujah.  

 

So that's one thing to ponder, how he's going to get out his writing.  The next thing then is WHAT he's going to write.  I think WTM has something write when it puts forward the idea that you should be comfortable writing before you try to make it more complex by thinking and writing.  So you can break up the elements of the task and just focus on helping him get comfortable with getting SOMETHING out, anything.  That, after all, is the point of those narrations WTM recommends all those years.  I did prompt writing with my dd one year, because it worked toward our goal of getting her more comfortable getting something out.  If neither handwriting nor typing is going well, maybe back up and do the thought to word portion of writing (oral narrations, discussions).  It can be totally fun stuff, like watching a movie together and then TALKING about it.  Talking is a form of composition.

 

Btw, my ds has verbal apraxia, which involves motor control, word retrieval, etc.  Ironically, when I got my dd eval'd, her word retrieval was also very poor, low in a way typical of dyslexics and kids with apraxia.  You couple that with low processing speed and handwriting that isn't automatic, and writing gets really ugly!  When WTM/SWB says work on thought to word, she's on the right track.  It's just she doesn't see it from a therapy perspective like we do to realize that some kids actually are going to struggle with that MIGHTILY and need support.  Some kids need evals for speech, because an SLP can work on language (word retrieval, etc.).  

 

Btw, have you looked into CAPD as an explanation?  Don't know why that slipped my mind till now.  The gurus can tell you when/if you post your numbers, but I think a verbal score that's dramatically lower than perceptual is a red flag to look for an auditory processing disorder.  Around here, the audiologists that do the full testing (with a closed booth, blah blah) want the psych eval (fresh, what you have) and an SLP eval.  It's just one of those things to read about and consider whether it applies to your situation.

 

You know, this is total aside, which clearly I'm full of tonight, lol, but it's so odd to me how they pick one blanket label and slap it on, slap it on, and there's SO much variation.  It seems like they don't even account for or explain the differences in processing speed we see, and why some kids would be 10th percentile and other kids 30+ and both be afflicted.  Then you'll see kids also getting the blanket label who have much HIGHER processing speeds.  There's never really an attempt, seems like, to explain why there are those differences in the kids.  

 

Keep working through it.  If you haven't got your scores yet, hopefully you will soon...  

[Teri H.; Oregon]

Is fluency, reading fluency, or all kinds of fluency? 

 

 

 

All fluency was low.

 

[Teri H.; Oregon]

 

 

Eta, how did his verbal comprehension score compare to PR?  Did the tester explain why she did not calculate a GAI instead of a Full-scale IQ?  There are certain rules about when to calculate GAI instead of Full-scale, having to do with the spread of VC vs PR on the one hand and then comparing them to WM and PS.  However, there are less-experienced psychs who don't even pay attention to the GAI option and inappropriately give a Full-scale when they should have calculated the GAI instead.

 

I'll go ahead and post the scores from the WISC that I received.  Maybe that will give a better picture of what I have.

 

[Teri H.; Oregon]

Here are the WISC results for my son:

 

Verbal Comp. index = 100 (50%)

Subscale -

Similarities: 5%

Vocabulary: 84%

Comprehension 25%

 

Perceptual Reason. index = 119 (90%)

Subscale -

Block Design: 99% (didn't miss any)

Picture concepts: 50%

Matrix Reason: 75%

 

Work. Mem. index = 104 (61%)

Subscale -

Digit Span: 63%

Letter-Num Sequencing: 63%

 

Processing Speed index =80 (9%)

Coding: 2%

Symbol Search: 37%

 

 

 

[Teri H.; Oregon]

I'm not a psych, but like the others I'm surprised you didn't get a GAI.  Has she given you the written report yet?  Sometimes they meet with you and then mail the written report a couple weeks later.  That may give you more to work with.  If you already have that you might list here what the tests and scores were and see if anyone who's good with interpreting them (not me) can help you.  

 

****I received the written report and she also sat down with us.  At the time she sat down with us, we had not seen the report and she gave us an overall summary.  As far as questions we had, we didn't know what to ask at that point.  The summaries on the report are really just regurgitated information from the results so are not that helpful.****

 

Is there anything he's especially good at or likes to do?  If he has something like that, I'd probably harness that for his writing, grammar, etc. and hang the curricula entirely.  The classical composition programs are all boring as sin, sorry.  Somehow people have taken WTM/SWB's comment that we shouldn't *force* kids to be creative to mean we needn't BOTHER.  I think this totally misses the boat with these kids.  If you give them something in context, something they're interested in or have a use for, sometimes they come alive.  Does he type?  Does he have an email account?  My dd struggled with QWERTY for years and years, so I finally put her over to Dvorak.  I had this terrible moment, around when she was 12, where I realized she might not end up comfortable with handwriting OR typing, and then where would she be?  Ack!  I switched her to Dvorak, gave her an email account and user account on the computer, and locked it so it ONLY worked in Dvorak, hehe.  Then I paid her.  She went from pecking around 8 wpm to typing properly at 40+ wpm in about 3 months, hallelujah.  

 

****Are there tutorials for the Dvorak keyboard or was it just something your daughter just explored on her own?*******

 

So that's one thing to ponder, how he's going to get out his writing.  The next thing then is WHAT he's going to write.  I think WTM has something write when it puts forward the idea that you should be comfortable writing before you try to make it more complex by thinking and writing.  So you can break up the elements of the task and just focus on helping him get comfortable with getting SOMETHING out, anything.  That, after all, is the point of those narrations WTM recommends all those years.  I did prompt writing with my dd one year, because it worked toward our goal of getting her more comfortable getting something out.  If neither handwriting nor typing is going well, maybe back up and do the thought to word portion of writing (oral narrations, discussions).  It can be totally fun stuff, like watching a movie together and then TALKING about it.  Talking is a form of composition.

 

*******Good thought.....*****

 

Btw, my ds has verbal apraxia, which involves motor control, word retrieval, etc.  Ironically, when I got my dd eval'd, her word retrieval was also very poor, low in a way typical of dyslexics and kids with apraxia.  You couple that with low processing speed and handwriting that isn't automatic, and writing gets really ugly!  When WTM/SWB says work on thought to word, she's on the right track.  It's just she doesn't see it from a therapy perspective like we do to realize that some kids actually are going to struggle with that MIGHTILY and need support.  Some kids need evals for speech, because an SLP can work on language (word retrieval, etc.).  

 

Btw, have you looked into CAPD as an explanation?  Don't know why that slipped my mind till now.  The gurus can tell you when/if you post your numbers, but I think a verbal score that's dramatically lower than perceptual is a red flag to look for an auditory processing disorder.  Around here, the audiologists that do the full testing (with a closed booth, blah blah) want the psych eval (fresh, what you have) and an SLP eval.  It's just one of those things to read about and consider whether it applies to your situation.

 

You know, this is total aside, which clearly I'm full of tonight, lol, but it's so odd to me how they pick one blanket label and slap it on, slap it on, and there's SO much variation.  It seems like they don't even account for or explain the differences in processing speed we see, and why some kids would be 10th percentile and other kids 30+ and both be afflicted.  Then you'll see kids also getting the blanket label who have much HIGHER processing speeds.  There's never really an attempt, seems like, to explain why there are those differences in the kids.  

 

Keep working through it.  If you haven't got your scores yet, hopefully you will soon...  

 

*******I posted the scores below***********

 

[Teri H.; Oregon]

I just want all of you to know how much I appreciate you trying to help me wade through all of this.  I feel like I am learning a foreign language.........

[SandyKC]

With processing speed issues, the child has to have a lot of thinking time.  With the ADHD, it is highly likely that a distraction of some kind, whether an intrusive thought, noise, movement, etc., is going to interfere with that extra-long thinking time and make it difficult for your DS to figure out what he needs to figure out.  That is probably a huge element in the reason you're seeing your DS have difficulty recalling stuff. 

 

Slow processing speeds with ADHD can also interfere with the storage of information.. With a slow thinking speed, it can take longer for the info to get stored in the mind.  WIth the ADHD, anything that intrudes on the memory-storage process is going to cause that newly learned info to be lost.

 

At 9%, that is a very slow processing speed, so you'll probably need to slow down your teaching/input rate teaching one thing at a time and letting your son have processing time.

 

YES, improving his processing speed can improve his fluency.. Fluency is the ability to work smoothly and easily with information.  Improving his speed will allow him to recall information more quickly, which will help with fluency across all subjects.

 

Memory issues can be improved through memory enhancement programs.  With your DS having issues with both processing speed and memory (which is above average, but not fabulous), you might want to have your DS start working with a cognitive enhancement program.

 

Yes, breaking things down into smaller increments is going to help him.  MUS is good for the math.. Just doing one single video segment per day and all of the practice problems will likely be enough for him.  Given his intellectual abilities, he can learn it well--he'll just need to take smaller steps so as not to lose the info he is being taught.

 

Also, having "down time" --NO TV, video games, computer, etc... Just quiet time, preferrably five to 10 minutes sitting quietly with his eyes closed, in between each lesson can help improve his retention.  The little "processing break" will give his mind time to process the lesson he just had and enable him to store more of it in his memory without any ADHD interference.

 

With the writing and the doc's reluctance to call it dysgraphia, your DS' writing problems are likely to be mostly (if not completely) due to the processing speed and ADHD.  Writing is a highly complex cognitive task because it requires a student to hold in his head what he wants to write, figure out how to write it, and then get it down on paper.  With ADHD, any interjection into his mind will cause him to lose that info he's holding in his head.  With a slow processing speed, it will take him longer to recall and reorganize what he wants to write, so the entire process becomes laborious. 

 

To help improve your DS' written expression, I'd HIGHLY recommend using speech-to-text software or a recorder to allow your DS to dictate what he wants to write at his thinking speed.. That way he can get his thoughts out, on the computer, while he's thinking of them and not have to try to hold the info in his head while writing. 

 

Given the ADHD diagnosis is new too, and it is primarily inattentive type, you might be able to manage that well with non-medical alternative methods using exercise, sleep regulation, etc.

 

Hope that helps!

Sandy

Thanks for asking those questions OhElizabeth as I really didn't even know what I wanted to know! :)

 

We just got the report back last week.  I've kind of had in the back of my mind something just wasn't right for a while now.  I thought maybe it was me not teaching him well enough, but when he kept sliding back in his studies I started getting really concerned.  He just wasn't recalling stuff we had covered time and again, and I couldn't figure out what was going on.  

 

I think I read something about the interactive metronome, but at that time I didn't know he had a problem with processing speed.  I have been so overwhelmed by all of the information that I really didn't know what I needed to address or start with.  I guess that is what I mean by I didn't know what to do with it.  His processing speed came in at 9%.  Your questions were good, and I think after reading them maybe a good place to start is trying to improve his processing speed.     Fluency seems to be his main issue on being behind, so if we improve his processing speed will that help his fluency? 

 

How do I deal with his memory?  That came in at the 60th percentile.

 

When you ask about his adjusted IQ would that be referred to the full scale IQ? 

 

He struggles with math.  Right now he is MUS Delta.

He seems to be doing well with FLL level 3.

I think I need to find a composition program.  We are using Classical Composition.  It works well with my daughter, but I wonder if I need to do something that breaks things down a little more for him...

 

So is this a right brain issue?  I noticed I am finding a lot of stuff referring to that.

 

Thank you for your encouragement!

 

[wapiti]

Here are the WISC results for my son:

 

I'm *guessing* that perhaps the GAI was not calculated due to the difference between the VC and the PR, though I don't remember what the specific rules are about that (this issue came up in one of my kids' testing).  They have to be close enough to each other.  Thus maybe it was technically correct to calculate the FSIQ *even though* as a practical matter it may not be an accurate representation of intelligence level.  With this sort of scatter, it's not like there'll be a whole lot of accurate no matter how you slice it.  ETA, according to a reference cited within this document, the GAI could be used if there is less than a 23-point spread between VC and PR and the 4 sections vary by more than 23 points (there is only a 19 pt spread between VC and PR in this case so GAI would seem appropriate).

 

Did the tester discuss the "scatter" among the subtest scores?  This REALLY stands out to me in this set of scores.  Within PR, compare the block design to picture concepts - that's, what, at least two standard deviations, maybe more?  Within VC, there are perhaps more than two standard deviations between similarities and vocabulary - I'm not sure.

 

I'd look closely at the descriptions of the subtests for hints about the disparate strengths and weaknesses.  I'll have to see if I have my reports around here, but in particular I'd look at picture concepts, which is relatively weak compared to the other two PR subtests, and smilarities, which may hold the key to another relative weakness.  

 

Obviously the block design was great, which IIRC would indicate visual-spatial strengths.  Just for comparison's sake, one of my kids with a low coding score had trouble finishing the block design tasks in time so he lost a lot of score points even though he completed all the "levels," for lack of a better term.  So, I think it's encouraging that the time aspect did not affect your ds's score in that subtest in spite of the motor sort of issue indicated by the coding score.  Obviously, that's a very low coding score and is often an indication of dysgraphia though my understanding is that more may be necessary for an actual diagnosis.

 

What concerns me in particular is that this odd mixture of highs and lows requires an awful lot of expertise to properly analyze.  If it's really true that the tester has rarely seen a PR score this high (as opposed to the tester just trying to emphasize the strengths in the scores to you), then this tester is not someone I'd guess has any expertise with 2e kids.  (Eta, to be fair, maybe she was referring to the block design score alone, but still....)  Also, with ADHD, maybe others will pipe in but I was under the impression that, while not actually diagnostic, one might expect a lower WM score than your ds's. 

 

That's my two cents - there are some other posters who will hopefully have more helpful thoughts!

 

Eta, a few nuggets:

The Similarities subtest is a measure of verbal concept formation – the ability to place objects and events together in a meaningful group or groups. 

 

Picture Concepts is designed to measure abstract, categorical reasoning ability.  Solutions to easier items are typically obtained by reasoning based on concrete representations (e.g., color, shape, and appearance), whereas solutions to more difficult items are typically obtained by reasoning based on more abstract representation (e.g., function of an object).  

 

See anything in common here for a weakness?  categories (I don't know what the upshot of this observation is)

 

The big strength:

 

The Block Design subtest involves the ability to perceive and analyze forms by breaking down a whole (the design) into its component parts and then assembling the components into the identical design presented.  This process is referred to as analysis and synthesis.  

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

I'm with wapiti that I'm surprised your tester had never seen perceptual scores like that.  You might consider taking your results to another psych for a 2nd opinion.  Happens all the time.  Our psych offered to read the tea leaves on testing our SLP does with ds.  A 2nd opinion is always good, and you wouldn't be the first to get an adhd label and have missed something big.

 

The pat answer I've heard (not a guru of the numbers though) is that a spread with a verbal score much lower than perceptual is your BIG RED FLAG to go look for an auditory processing disorder.

[geodob]

The PSI test of Symbol Search was interesting, as this test involves the tester giving names for geometric shapes, which the testee has to point at.

Where given his strong Perceptual Reasoning scores, it would be expected that their would be strong recognition different geometric shapes?

But what this actually tests, is the 'sound/symbol' connection.

So that the 37% score, shows some delay or difficulty with association.

 

With the Coding test, it has a row of the numbers 1 to 5, with different symbols under each one.

Then another section has rows with the numbers 1 to 5 in random order.

The test involves drawing the relevant symbol, under each number.

(where of course, fine motor difficulties make drawing the symbols a problem.)

 

But what needs to be considered with this test, is how a difficulty with sound/ symbol association would effect this test?

As we read the number, and then look up for the symbol associated with it.

 

Though a supplement to the PSI test, is the Cancellation test.

Which has a page with randomly arranged: numbers, letters and pictures.

So that the tester names them randomly, and the testee has to point at what was named.

Where this is a basic test of sound/ symbol association.

Low scores with this, can then be followed with the RAN Rapid Automatic Naming test.

Which is actually opposite, as it tests symbol to sound, with naming.

 

But importantly, recent research has shown that delays sound/ symbol and symbol/sound association.

Can be addressed with exercises that simply involve: 'name and point', and 'point and name'.

Where practicing it directly, develops and an increasingly fluent sound/ symbol/ sound association.

 

Though here's a link to a page that describes each of the tests:

https://www.thinktonight.com/WISC_IV_subtests_s/331.htm

[PeterPan]

 

Though here's a link to a page that describes each of the tests:

https://www.thinktonight.com/WISC_IV_subtests_s/331.htm

That was a terrific link!  Thanks!  :D

[Teri H.; Oregon]

I'm with wapiti that I'm surprised your tester had never seen perceptual scores like that.  You might consider taking your results to another psych for a 2nd opinion.  Happens all the time.  Our psych offered to read the tea leaves on testing our SLP does with ds.  A 2nd opinion is always good, and you wouldn't be the first to get an adhd label and have missed something big.

 

The pat answer I've heard (not a guru of the numbers though) is that a spread with a verbal score much lower than perceptual is your BIG RED FLAG to go look for an auditory processing disorder.

 

It was the block building she was referencing....:)

 

[Teri H.; Oregon]

The PSI test of Symbol Search was interesting, as this test involves the tester giving names for geometric shapes, which the testee has to point at.

Where given his strong Perceptual Reasoning scores, it would be expected that their would be strong recognition different geometric shapes?

But what this actually tests, is the 'sound/symbol' connection.

So that the 37% score, shows some delay or difficulty with association.

 

With the Coding test, it has a row of the numbers 1 to 5, with different symbols under each one.

Then another section has rows with the numbers 1 to 5 in random order.

The test involves drawing the relevant symbol, under each number.

(where of course, fine motor difficulties make drawing the symbols a problem.)

 

But what needs to be considered with this test, is how a difficulty with sound/ symbol association would effect this test?

As we read the number, and then look up for the symbol associated with it.

 

Though a supplement to the PSI test, is the Cancellation test.

Which has a page with randomly arranged: numbers, letters and pictures.

So that the tester names them randomly, and the testee has to point at what was named.

Where this is a basic test of sound/ symbol association.

Low scores with this, can then be followed with the RAN Rapid Automatic Naming test.

Which is actually opposite, as it tests symbol to sound, with naming.

 

But importantly, recent research has shown that delays sound/ symbol and symbol/sound association.

Can be addressed with exercises that simply involve: 'name and point', and 'point and name'.

Where practicing it directly, develops and an increasingly fluent sound/ symbol/ sound association.

 

Though here's a link to a page that describes each of the tests:

https://www.thinktonight.com/WISC_IV_subtests_s/331.htm

 

It is interesting.  On the coding, I remember her saying that a lot of kids would reference the codes they had already placed down by the numbers in order to find other ones.  They would work faster because of that.  She was saying DS kept looking up at the top and never referenced the ones he had already done which in turn made it that much longer for him to complete the coding. 

 

I'll take a look at the link and see if I can recall other things she might have said during our conversation regarding the different tests.

 

Thanks!!

 

 

[FairProspects]

But even so, I'm wondering if this psych doesn't have a lot of experience with gifted or 2E kids. The block design is a great score, sure, but a psych who works with these populations should regularly see kids who hit the ceilings of subtests and should even be familiar with how and when to give extended norms when it happens on multiple subtests. Otherwise you just don't get a complete picture of the potential and issues with 2E kids. For her to say that she has never seen a kid hit the ceiling surprises me.

[Teri H.; Oregon]

It is interesting.  On the coding, I remember her saying that a lot of kids would reference the codes they had already placed down by the numbers in order to find other ones.  They would work faster because of that.  She was saying DS kept looking up at the top and never referenced the ones he had already done which in turn made it that much longer for him to complete the coding. 

 

I'll take a look at the link and see if I can recall other things she might have said during our conversation regarding the different tests.

 

Thanks!!

 

Another thing is when I was asking him about some of the tests, ds referenced the digit orders.  He said he found it easier to remember and say them backwards than forwards.

 

[Teri H.; Oregon]

The PSI test of Symbol Search was interesting, as this test involves the tester giving names for geometric shapes, which the testee has to point at.

Where given his strong Perceptual Reasoning scores, it would be expected that their would be strong recognition different geometric shapes?

But what this actually tests, is the 'sound/symbol' connection.

So that the 37% score, shows some delay or difficulty with association.

 

With the Coding test, it has a row of the numbers 1 to 5, with different symbols under each one.

Then another section has rows with the numbers 1 to 5 in random order.

The test involves drawing the relevant symbol, under each number.

(where of course, fine motor difficulties make drawing the symbols a problem.)

 

But what needs to be considered with this test, is how a difficulty with sound/ symbol association would effect this test?

As we read the number, and then look up for the symbol associated with it.

 

Though a supplement to the PSI test, is the Cancellation test.

Which has a page with randomly arranged: numbers, letters and pictures.

So that the tester names them randomly, and the testee has to point at what was named.

Where this is a basic test of sound/ symbol association.

Low scores with this, can then be followed with the RAN Rapid Automatic Naming test.

Which is actually opposite, as it tests symbol to sound, with naming.

 

But importantly, recent research has shown that delays sound/ symbol and symbol/sound association.

Can be addressed with exercises that simply involve: 'name and point', and 'point and name'.

Where practicing it directly, develops and an increasingly fluent sound/ symbol/ sound association.

 

Though here's a link to a page that describes each of the tests:

https://www.thinktonight.com/WISC_IV_subtests_s/331.htm

 

This site is fabulous, Geodob!!!  Thanks!!!!

 

[PeterPan]

Another thing is when I was asking him about some of the tests, ds referenced the digit orders.  He said he found it easier to remember and say them backwards than forwards.

She should have scores for that in your report.  Our psych definitely noted the differences there and drew conclusions from it.  His take is subjective and might reflect that he was using his VSL abilities.  You see that in my dd's word retrieval, where she can mask her issues when she's able to visualize.  Once you remove that, bam the scores drop.  (He had multiple subtests, so one was surprisingly high due to the VSL and another was in the basement where she couldn't use her VSL abilities.)

 

But even so, I'm wondering if this psych doesn't have a lot of experience with gifted or 2E kids. The block design is a great score, sure, but a psych who works with these populations should regularly see kids who hit the ceilings of subtests and should even be familiar with how and when to give extended norms when it happens on multiple subtests. Otherwise you just don't get a complete picture of the potential and issues with 2E kids. For her to say that she has never seen a kid hit the ceiling surprises me.

You know this explains why the testing for my ds takes so long, oy.  To me it's like come on, step up the pace, I'm paying BY THE HOUR FOR THIS, but what the SLP was doing was slowing down and letting ALL of him come out, with no rushing.  When you do that, it's pretty wild what you get.  Thanks for the explanation, because I've spent the last few weeks totally annoyed that it took them so long to get through what should have been simple testing, lol.   :D

[geodob]

Here's an example of the Coding test:

[Pen]

Hi. Not much to add. Welcome! We are in Oregon too. My son also had those same words as part of a PS evaluation. For him it appears to be related to a dyslexia, not a slow processing speed. For him, Brave Writer type approach to writing, more or less, has been useful. Typing instead of penmanship.

[Pen]

Other thoughts:

 

Do you also sense a comprehension issue, or does his comprehension seem good to you -- for reading silently, reading aloud, spoken information, and audio-visual information like movies?

 

If so, you might start working on comprehension/fluency. My ds ended up in tears over IEW, but I think it could be helpful on the side of reading passages for fluency and comprehension. My son did do good writing with it, but it literally bored him and frustrated him to tears. So Brave Writer which allowed for more creativity and interest was better for him.

 

Critical Thinking Co has programs called Math Detective which have computer and workbook versions. They work some math and reading comprehension/logic at the same time. Their Balance Math and Balance Benders might also be of interest to your son since they are very visual forms of math related processing.

 

Was the blocks test timed? If not, part of what is going on may have to do with what he can do when timed versus not timed.

[Teri H.; Oregon]

Other thoughts:

 

Do you also sense a comprehension issue, or does his comprehension seem good to you -- for reading silently, reading aloud, spoken information, and audio-visual information like movies?

 

If so, you might start working on comprehension/fluency. My ds ended up in tears over IEW, but I think it could be helpful on the side of reading passages for fluency and comprehension. My son did do good writing with it, but it literally bored him and frustrated him to tears. So Brave Writer which allowed for more creativity and interest was better for him.

 

Critical Thinking Co has programs called Math Detective which have computer and workbook versions. They work some math and reading comprehension/logic at the same time. Their Balance Math and Balance Benders might also be of interest to your son since they are very visual forms of math related processing.

 

Was the blocks test timed? If not, part of what is going on may have to do with what he can do when timed versus not timed.

 

Block test was timed and he finished before the time was done.  Comprehension seems to be a bit challenged. 

 

I referenced the link that Geodob gave and that was tremendous help.  I need to take some time to digest all this.  I think we are going to have a 2nd opinion done and see what we get from that.  I can let you all know what we find out.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Block test was timed and he finished before the time was done.  Comprehension seems to be a bit challenged. 

 

I referenced the link that Geodob gave and that was tremendous help.  I need to take some time to digest all this.  I think we are going to have a 2nd opinion done and see what we get from that.  I can let you all know what we find out.

Good luck!  I missed this the first time I read through.  A 2nd opinion might help a lot.  

 

Best wishes...