Knowing when to test ...

[swimmermom3]

I have wanted to ask a question for time, but am not sure quite how to phrase it or even if I should be asking it. How do you know if you need to do academic testing? I have thought about this over the past couple of years, but have pushed it to the back of my mind because things are "okay."

 

I have joked through the years about my youngest be the "non-reader in a house full of books," yet he had no trouble with comprehension last year when we covered authors like Homer, Hesiod, and Aristophanes. He doesn't miss the finer points in the readings for AP English Language, but this year because of the reading load, I have noticed just how slow he does read. He recently told me that "reading is hard work."  His PSAT critical reading score is 66. 

 

Also, a couple of years ago when ds started Algebra I one in the middle of 7th grade, I asked about his frustration at how long it took to write out the problems. A board member suggested that he dictate his solutions to me while I write and that allowed him to do more advanced work without being frustrated. Now when I assign a fair number of chemistry problems, I will occasionally write a few for him to speed up the process. He transitioned to doing math at the public high school last year with little difficulty. He earned "A's" in geometry for 9th grade and is currently taking Advanced Algebra 2. He has a solid "B" in the class, but today was the final and he was completely frustrated with the fact that he ran out of time. "I studied; I know the math, it just takes me forever." He also said that the work is challenging, which is fine, but at home we work until he gets the concept whereas at school, it's 3 or 4 days on a topic and then a proficiency test. He feels as though his math foundation is getting a bit shaky.

 

We had already considered bringing him home for math after hearing numerous outside comments about the level of teaching for ds's class.  Thanks to the help of this board, we are all set to go with AoPS.  In talking the situation over with my mom, she voiced concern that we were just avoiding the testing issue and that he should stay in the class and get outside tutoring. I think her other concern is that perhaps we are catering to much to his "wants."

 

I just don't know. This boy argues with Siri while I am driving, about the given directions, and he is usually right. He's always been very together and lately he has been complaining about being distracted and having a hard time focusing.

 

Am I over-reacting and mistaking the hormonal teens years for a bigger problem? Should I be concerned about his speed?

 

Please don't quote me, I will remove some of the information in this post.

 

 

[JanetC]

Right there with you with one of mine.  My kids have been tested for various things at younger ages, with results along the lines of:  "There are some definite differences here, but nothing I would want to put a label on."   But, things that were little quirks are becoming bigger problems lately.  For a teen, I think it really has to be something they want to do and cooperate with.  Does your DS want to test?  Either to understand himself better, or to figure out if there is an intervention which would help?  (And, of course, the more practical concerns: Do you live in a area with access to good testing?  Do you have money or insurance to cover it?)

[Lori D.]

And, in order to receive special considerations such as extra time in SAT/ACT testing -- AND in college courses/tests! -- you need to start a "paper trail" now, before high school graduation. There must be documented proof of need, through test results and diagnosis, BEFORE college.

 

I know it might feel very frustrating and a like a blow to the pride to feel as though you are somehow "deficient" or "labeled" because of a need for handling things a little different than the average student. But on the other hand, it's not really a TRUE test of one's REAL abilities and knowledge if you are not allowed to finish just because you need a bit more time for processing the reading/writing... not because you didn't know the answer or understand the subject.

 

:grouphug: Hugs and empathy as you and DS walk through deciding how to best approach this. Warmest regards, Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

I agree with Janet. I don't think the answer is that simple at this age. We discussed having our youngest ds tested about the same age as your ds and he said no. (Testing has to be less than 3 yrs old when they enter college if they want accommodations, so your ds is the perfect age. ). But, dh saw no purpose it ds didn't want to. We had already been through our Aspie starting to refuse the accommodations he qualified for and really needed. While youngest could benefit from themin certain situations, he doesn't want them and he has learned to function without them. So, first you have that issue. What does your ds think? Does he want to test? Would he use accommodations if he qualified?

[wapiti]

Is there a speed issue across the board?  Did he run out of time (or feel very pressured that he might) on the PSAT?  The potential for accommodations on the SAT would be something to consider seriously, regardless of whether he might or might not wish to use accommodations at college.

 

On the reading being hard work, think about ruling out vision issues with a covd optometrist.  Sometimes a developmental vision problem alone can slow a person down dramatically though it is not unusual for such issues to exist alongside other ones (e.g motor issues with both the eyes and the hand).

[Julie of KY]

Not sure. I generally think testing (even just to know) is worthwhile. Understanding that reading takes more time because of x can be helpful. Labels generally aren't going to fix anything, but can still be helpful.

 

You may find a diagnosis helpful for SAT/ACT testing, though it may be tougher to get extended time with a brand new diagnosis - they seem to be picky. My son can double his score with double time. Testing now may really help if any accommodations are needed in college.

 

As a previous poster said, vision issues can coexist with other learning issues. Whereas any acoomodations for dyslexia, dysgraphis, etc. you are probably naturally doing at home - whatever time it takes, occasional scribing, etc. If vision issues are detected, the results of vision therapy may make a huge impact on reading speed and handwriting depending on the issues. My high schooler just started vision therapy so we'll see how it goes.

[swimmermom3]

Right there with you with one of mine.  My kids have been tested for various things at younger ages, with results along the lines of:  "There are some definite differences here, but nothing I would want to put a label on."   But, things that were little quirks are becoming bigger problems lately.  For a teen, I think it really has to be something they want to do and cooperate with.  Does your DS want to test?  Either to understand himself better, or to figure out if there is an intervention which would help?  (And, of course, the more practical concerns: Do you live in a area with access to good testing?  Do you have money or insurance to cover it?)

 

The part in bold is how I feel. The pacing on everything seems "off."  It's easy to let it slide because he is a good student, but as the work gets more demanding, it's getting harder for him to keep up.

 

I don't think getting ds to test would be difficult as he's frustrated, it may be problematic in getting him to accept accommodations. Talking about this reminds me of my oldest in 8th grade. She had really struggled with math, so she worked with a tutor and her gifted math teacher at school. At one point he called us in and said the issue wasn't the math, but actually the testing. He moved her to an empty classroom with a proctor and her scores shot up. She had test anxiety and was easily distracted. He suggested we ask for accommodations in high school and was happy to write a letter for dd. We didn't follow through because we felt like she should learn to adapt. :tongue_smilie: If I had been on the board longer, I would have known that not following through was perhaps not the best plan. But that was anxiety slowing her down and ds doesn't seem to be anxious about testing.

 

I don't know about access to testing because I am not sure where to start.

 

 

And, in order to receive special considerations such as extra time in SAT/ACT testing -- AND in college courses/tests! -- you need to start a "paper trail" now, before high school graduation. There must be documented proof of need, through test results and diagnosis, BEFORE college.

 

I know it might feel very frustrating and a like a blow to the pride to feel as though you are somehow "deficient" or "labeled" because of a need for handling things a little different than the average student. But on the other hand, it's not really a TRUE test of one's REAL abilities and knowledge if you are not allowed to finish just because you need a bit more time for processing the reading/writing... not because you didn't know the answer or understand the subject.

 

:grouphug: Hugs and empathy as you and DS walk through deciding how to best approach this. Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

:grouphug: Thanks, Lori. The way you phrased it is perfect for my ds. He's really pleased with his AP English Language class and announced last night that he definitely wants to take the AP Lit class from the same teacher. Part of me is delighted and the other part is downright worried about the reading load.

 

I agree with Janet. I don't think the answer is that simple at this age. We discussed having our youngest ds tested about the same age as your ds and he said no. (Testing has to be less than 3 yrs old when they enter college if they want accommodations, so your ds is the perfect age. ). But, dh saw no purpose it ds didn't want to. We had already been through our Aspie starting to refuse the accommodations he qualified for and really needed. While youngest could benefit from themin certain situations, he doesn't want them and he has learned to function without them. So, first you have that issue. What does your ds think? Does he want to test? Would he use accommodations if he qualified?

 

The part in bold is the catch. I can see ds saying, "I do okay," but in the long run being dissatisfied with the results.

 

I also don't know enough about testing (other than ADD) to know what I am looking for or at.

[Lori D.]

 

I also don't know enough about testing (other than ADD) to know what I am looking for or at.

 

Certainly NOT an expert here, but the previous posters who mentioned vision tracking/convergence as a possible reason would be a good place to look for testing. That would require someone who specializes in those areas.

 

Also, just plain ole vision test from an optometrist to make sure vision correction isn't needed.

 

Our DS was tested as borderline dyslexic at age 10. I believe from my research/reading that he struggles with "stealth dyslexia", which mainly affects his writing and spelling. As far as reading, he was a bit of a delayed reader, and it was an effort for him to handle multi-syllable words (he would often guess from context and the first letter). He has definitely improved in all areas as we've worked with him and as his brain has had time to mature. But, still with reading, longer words can be a burden for him to have to stop, slow down, and read by sequential syllable. So perhaps there is the possibility of borderline or stealth dyslexia with your DS, as he is having to slow down??

 

Here's a list of vision screening tests and here are more detailed descriptions of those issues -- does anything there sound like a possible match with DS??

 

 

BEST of luck in narrowing this down and finding what helps! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

You're going to need a psychologist that is willing to do complete battery testing. You will probably end up having a WISC done. It will help show discrepancies in areas and processing speeds.

 

With our Aspie, his processing speeds are incredibly slow (the first time he tested the audio and visual were both around the 3rd percentile. The second time he tested one was still that low and the other was in the 18th).

 

But if you suspect stealth dyslexia, you are going to need more specific testing. (I am assuming that you aren't aware of a dyslexic problem?)

 

If you are going to pursue testing, you really should do so before the end of this yr so that you have all the documentation in hand before 11th grade.

 

Is he going to take the English AP in May? If he takes it w/o accommodations and does well, then from what we were told, the demonstration of needing accommodations/history of requiring accommodations becomes an issue. Maybe we misunderstood, so I hope if someone knows otherwise will chime in. So, seeking accommodations before then might be the target. (I am really unsure here.)

 

Eta: we had ds tested for convergence issues and he didn't have any. That was a test he would agree to having done.

[swimmermom3]

Is there a speed issue across the board?  Did he run out of time (or feel very pressured that he might) on the PSAT?  The potential for accommodations on the SAT would be something to consider seriously, regardless of whether he might or might not wish to use accommodations at college.

 

On the reading being hard work, think about ruling out vision issues with a covd optometrist.  Sometimes a developmental vision problem alone can slow a person down dramatically though it is not unusual for such issues to exist alongside other ones (e.g motor issues with both the eyes and the hand).

 

Across the board? I am not exactly sure. The reading is slow and the computation is slow. With enough time, his comprehension is deep and the math and chemistry problems are usually correct. It just takes forever, or it seems that way because I move fast and he moves slowly.

 

 He did run out of time on the PSAT. I don't know how close he was to being done or how much that would have affected his score (176). He has two AP tests this spring and is worried about being able to write fast enough. I have been utilizing "quick responses" to help him accelerate the thinking and organizing part of the essay. Basically, I give him the prompt, he writes a thesis statement, gives me the supporting evidence, and then writes a full conclusion.  We do a lot of those. He's going to talk to the other AP teacher to see if she has any ideas on how he can improve his writing speed.

 

 

Not sure. I generally think testing (even just to know) is worthwhile. Understanding that reading takes more time because of x can be helpful. Labels generally aren't going to fix anything, but can still be helpful.

 

You may find a diagnosis helpful for SAT/ACT testing, though it may be tougher to get extended time with a brand new diagnosis - they seem to be picky. My son can double his score with double time. Testing now may really help if any accommodations are needed in college.

 

As a previous poster said, vision issues can coexist with other learning issues. Whereas any acoomodations for dyslexia, dysgraphis, etc. you are probably naturally doing at home - whatever time it takes, occasional scribing, etc. If vision issues are detected, the results of vision therapy may make a huge impact on reading speed and handwriting depending on the issues. My high schooler just started vision therapy so we'll see how it goes.

 

Julie, I've wondered about the vision aspect because of headaches, but the vision test at the pediatrician's office seems fine. Would an ophthalmologist be our first stop?

[8filltheheart]

Across the board? I am not exactly sure. The reading is slow and the computation is slow. With enough time, his comprehension is deep and the math and chemistry problems are usually correct. It just takes forever, or it seems that way because I move fast and he moves slowly.

 

He did run out of time on the PSAT. I don't know how close he was to being done or how much that would have affected his score (176). He has two AP tests this spring and is worried about being able to write fast enough. I have been utilizing "quick responses" to help him accelerate the thinking and organizing part of the essay. Basically, I give him the prompt, he writes a thesis statement, gives me the supporting evidence, and then writes a full conclusion. We do a lot of those. He's going to talk to the other AP teacher to see if she has any ideas on how he can improve his writing speed.

 

Lisa, these sound like processing speed issues to me.

[wapiti]

The vision part is the easier (and usually quicker and less expensive) part to get tested.  A COVD optometrist is a regular optometrist with special training for these additional issues.  Use the provider locator at http://www.covd.org/ and/or consider any personal recommendations you may be able to get, e.g., if you contact a neuropsych or ed psych to make an appointment for the other testing, they may have a specific COVD recommendation for you.  The COVD optometrist can often screen for developmental vision issues at a regular vision checkup but a full developmental vision evaluation is a separate, more lengthy appointment (where we go, it's 1.5 hrs).

 

A vision check with the pediatrician is not a great indicator of anything.  That's an extremely crude checkup that will catch only the most glaring distance acuity (20/20) issues.  It won't touch developmental issues (eyes working together) and I don't even remember if it checks near vision acuity(?).  I wouldn't even trust the pediatrician check for indicating whether glasses are necessary.  Developmental vision issues are such that even other types of eye doctors (regular optometrists and opthamologists) do not catch them in a regular checkup (that indeed was our experience with the ped opthamologist).  The developmental vision eval is much more in-depth with numerous tests that just are not a part of a regular vision checkup (think infra-red goggles that record the eye tracking movements).  Quality and scope of services vary widely among COVDs (e.g. ours has an OT on staff full-time); it's a bit of the wild west.  That's where recommendations count.  Also, on the website provider list, an "FCOVD" is a fellow who would typically have more experience.

 

The other testing would be done by an ed psych or neuropsych.  The neuropsych may conduct more testing in-house whereas the psych may refer out (e.g. we use an ed psych and were sent to a speech and language pathologist for language testing that's typically involved in, say, a dyslexia diagnosis).  In your ds's case, being bright but with these difficulties, I would recommend finding a tester who is experienced with 2e (twice-exceptional) kids, as the analysis of subtest scores and such can be more complicated.  I would look for such a tester in the Hoagies list, on the websites of local gifted schools (who often require such testing for admission and identify acceptable testers) and by word of mouth.  There's also the converse of my suggestion above; if you find an experienced local COVD, that office probably can recommend names of psychs/neuropsychs that they often receive referrals from.  Typically, the testing would include, at a minimum, an IQ test (often the WISC due to how that breaks out processing speed from other sections) and an achievement test.

 

Running out of time on the PSAT is a big clue, I think, that it might be quite helpful to have accommodations for the SAT.  For handwriting speed, an accommodation on the AP tests might include typing - I'm not sure.  If he doesn't already type most of his schoolwork, that is what a psych would recommend for processing speed/dysgraphic types of issues.  As our psych said, it's a wonderful thing that technology has come so far!

 

I would proceed by calling for appointments for both the vision and the psych/neuropsych.  Typically, you can get in for the vision appointment sooner than the other one.

 

This is too late for your ds, and as much as I am naturally inclined to distrust whatever changes are coming to the SAT in 2016, I am a little hopeful that, if indeed the SAT is entirely on the computer, maybe accommodations for my kids won't be something we even seek.  I haven't thought that through or discussed it with the psych yet as to which aspects of processing speed that would account for.  One of my boys will probably get re-tested later this year...

[swimmermom3]

Lisa, these sound like processing speed issues to me.

 

So that would be contacting a psychologist? Should I start with the pediatrician's office to see where they recommend?

 

Are there things they can do for processing speed issues or is it just a matter of providing accommodations?

[MtnTeaching]

Hi Lisa!

 

What is it exactly that you are worried about?  I am just trying to pinpoint it.  Is it mainly the speed of reading and problem-solving?

 

You stated that his comprehension in reading is good when he is given the time.  You also stated that his problem with the math course is the time it takes him.  Does he feel that this is the cause for the "shakiness" of his math basics?  Does he feel he would comprehend it better with a bit more time? (By the way, I am betting he is going to really like AoPS.  I would definitely suggest that you NOT do the online course, though, if he needs time.  Ds did two semesters of classes with them and it went WAY too fast for him.  He was constantly frustrated.  If I could do it again, I would just get the books and allow him to puzzle through it at his own pace.)

 

I have talked quite a bit here on the boards about my "night and day" kids.  They are absolute opposites in the academic realm.   Dd(15) is dyslexic and reading has always been agonizing for her.  The comprehension is there when she is able to go slow.  She has a formal diagnosis and we use "Learning Ally" (formally the Recordings for the Blind and Dyslexic) so that she can hear the book auditorily while she reads it.  It keeps her speed up and her comprehension goes up even further.  Along with this, her spelling is horrific because she just does not "see" the word in her head.  We have studied spelling rules for years - AAS, Barton, Logic of English - but she cannot remember them to use them when she needs too. Frustrating.  She does fairly well in math, not awesome, but well.  It takes her forever.  She takes two hours a day to do her Teaching Textbook assignments from her ps enrichment class teacher.  When she took the ITBS last year, the school administered the full battery in two days with blocks of four hours each.  It was torture for her and she did not finish either the reading or the math sections.  She just did not have the time she needed.  She would get so fatigued.  What she did finish had a wonderful score.  I will definitely be having her retested for a fresh diagnosis next year.  She will absolutely need accommodations for the ACT or SAT and college work. 

 

Does any of this sound like your ds?  I am just a bit confused at what your concerns are?  Is he actually getting frustrated enough with himself that you are concerned?  Or is this a nagging feeling you have had for a long time?  (By the way, I absolutely believe that a mother's "nagging feeling" can be the best indicator of a true concern.  There is no one out there who knows a child better - especially one who is working one-on-one academically with that child.)

 

I also think that the comments regarding vision is also a possibility.  He is a sharp guy!  Ds absolutely loves reading his comments from class and will quote something he said to me on a regular basis.

 

Sorry for the dissertation here, but I had another thought.

 

This year has been an incredibly hard one for my own ds in several ways.  The work load has definitely gotten harder.  Hormones have definitely been a problem. He was on burnout from last year and it has been a bit of a struggle to get his momentum back.   For your ds, I wonder if some of this might be mixed in there as well.

 

My ds has always been one of those kids that I could give a stack of books to read on Monday and by Friday they were done.  He reads like crazy - but the level of academic reading this year has slowed him down.  He has ALWAYS been slow in math because the physical part of writing has always been slow for him.

 

Two years ago, ds took the PLAN test (like the PSAT, but for the ACT).  He went in there at the last minute with absolutely no prep and knocked it out of the park.  Yale and Cornell sent him letters.  This year, he took the PSAT after studying and preparing with a prep class.  It was abysmal.  His critical reading was 58 and the letters we get are now from places like Wichita State .  This is from the same kid that missed just one question on the entire English portion of the PLAN  (needless to say, we are going to focus on taking the ACT rather than the SAT).  All this to say, in my ds' case, I feel there is more going on here than just academic skill.  I do not know if test anxiety played a part or what is going on.  

 

By the way, this kid (ds) also had problems reading early on.  He had a couple of rounds of vision therapy and he was golden.  This was a success story for vision therapy.  It did not help dd at all.

 

Have the concerns you are experiencing with ds always been a concern or have they really become more so now that the academic load is heavier.  I know you said he has always needed a bit more time, but are you concerned about  there being something such as dyslexia going on?

[EKS]

As some of the other posters have mentioned, the first thing I would do would be to have his vision checked by a developmental optometrist.  If his vision checks out, then I'd get him evaluated by someone who gets "stealth" dyslexia.  The Eides are an example of what I mean, though they have long wait times and are expensive.  However, if there is a problem, they will find it. 

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I would not go through the pediatrician. I would contact your insurance company. These tests are expensive, so finding if you have any coverage would be the first place to start.

 

If you don't, I would contact any regional universities with graduate psy depts and see if they provide testing. (Unless the cost out of pocket is not an issue. Then, just seeking recommendations would be an option.)

 

A complete neuropsy evaluation would be what your probably want. I disagree with Wapiti that he should seek writing accommodations. Unless he has some sort of dysgraphia, the writing issues are most likely related to processing speed. Our ds has weak muscle tone issues and his incredibly slow writing speed is still strictly associated with processing speed. (And I think dysgraphic accommodations are some of the hardest to receive. Nothing you have posted about your ds over the yrs would suggest it.)

 

The one other area where I think you might have a problem vs homeschoolers is the fact that your ds has been in the school system. If his grades have been fairly high without accommodations, you might have a problem demonstrating history or need. Before you spend out of pocket money, if that is what you would have to do, I might talk to the school's guidance counselor and ask her opinion if she knows how successful you might be in pursuing this.

[wapiti]

I disagree with Wapiti that he should seek writing accommodations. Unless he has some sort of dysgraphia, the writing issues are most likely related to processing speed. Our ds has weak muscle tone issues and his incredibly slow writing speed is still strictly associated with processing speed. (And I think dysgraphic accommodations are some of the hardest to receive. Nothing you have posted about your ds over the yrs would suggest it.)

 

This is where my understanding gets murky, the connection between processing speed and dysgraphia ("dysgraphia" as a short-hand for the DSM's Disorder of Written Expression).  I was under the impression that they can go hand in hand, that dysgraphia can be a subset, or result, of types of processing speed issues, if that makes any sense.  Our psych report recommended typing as a way to improve speed of output in the context of school, as a practical matter, as opposed to the College Board context here.  That recommendation was based on the Coding subtest score, IIRC.

 

Eta, I think my disconnect is the fact that on the ability side, the Coding subtest of the WISC is one possible measure of fine motor dysgraphia, which is also one part of the processing speed score.  In addition the CB requires a presumably objective low-level achievement percentile score ("fine motor problems present severity in organization, presentation of ideas, richness of language, complex language structure" from when a computer accommodation might be available for written portion of CB tests).  I'm not sure I see that a DSM diagnosis is relevant as much as particular test scores and I'm beginning to assume that a 2e student with writing skills in terms of language output that are not below grade level will not find this particular accommodation available.  Is that correct?

 

Off to read about what it takes for extra time - if anyone has ballpark percentiles that would allow accommodation for extra time, or information about what sort of difference must be show between timed and untimed tests, I'm all ears.

[Julie of KY]

Julie, I've wondered about the vision aspect because of headaches, but the vision test at the pediatrician's office seems fine. Would an ophthalmologist be our first stop?

As someone else already said, the best place to go for vision screening is a developmental optometrist (a COVD doctor). A regular optometrist or ophthalmologist doesn't do a good screening for eye tracking, convergence, binocularity, depth perception, etc. Eyesight can easily be 20/20 and still need therapy.

 

My daughter classically falls into symptoms that led me to seek out vision screening. She has trouble reading, her eyes tear, headaches with reading, double vision (that I never knew about). Starting vision therapy has had incredible results in the short term with her. In the process, I started asking questions about my other kids most notably my oldest who is extremely gifted, dyslexic and severely dysgraphic. On any vision screening questionare, he doesn't stand out at all. However, it is very evident that his eyes don't track normally. The doctor says that he is so bright that he probably learned to accommodate himself, but higher level work overwhelms his visual system. He has very poor depth perception which might be a big factor in his handwriting difficulty. He also has very poor convergence which puts a lot of stress on the visual system. He is only on his second week of vision therapy, so we'll see how it goes.

 

If you know anyone in your area that has had vision therapy ask them for recommendations. Also ask for recommendations for psych testing - either through a neuropsych or educational psych. I found a good person for testing by calling up our local dyslexia tutoring center and asking who they refer patients to for testing.

 

Good luck as you sort through what you want to do.

[PeterPan]

Well the others are taking good care of you, so I'll just add to the chorus.  Yes, if he's having headaches with reading, you need to get his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist (COVD).  You wouldn't be the first person here on the boards who realized their kid had both vision and SN issues and got them diagnosed their junior or senior year, hehe.  (See SusanC's posts.)

 

Ditto the comments about the conflict over accommodations, especially for writing.  Without evals, your giving accommodations can actually backfire, giving him options he won't get in college.  As 8Fills pointed out, a dysgraphia label is not a guaranteed thing.  My dd's motor control for handwriting is not automatic (a criteria some practitioners use), etc. etc. and she did NOT get it.  That means she does NOT have written in her stuff the accommodation to type things.  When her spanish teacher says handwrite a zillion pages, it's suck up buttercup.  I do that because it's what the paper said, not because I'm mean.  I can't give accommodations that aren't diagnostically allowed.

 

On the other hand, for us, getting the *right words* for things was pivotal.  Others mentioned processing speed, and I would agree  you have a lot of flags for it.  We live it, so I know how frustrating it is.  You mentioned you know ADD testing, but I'm not sure what you're thinking there.  Most peds only do a screening tool.  A neuropsych or other psychologist will dig in with hours and hours of testing and may find all kinds of things you aren't expecting.  When I saw my dd's processing speed scores I CRIED.  Our psych looked at word retrieval and all sorts of things.  You'll get those scores and start to see how the issues were affecting him in all sorts of areas.  And as you see how the issues were affecting him and see it clearly, you'll start to see options for what to DO about it.  There are some simple/inexpensive interventions and of course there are tons of techniques for how you work with them.  

 

I've been told that universities WANT to give accommodations and help and the students are embarrassed or don't want to take advantage of them.  College is so expensive, one of my great priorities in high school is getting dd the right words for herself, what she needs, and getting her comfortable with asking for those accommodations and USING them.  We plan to visit colleges and see how the accommodations (extended testing time, limited distraction testing environment, etc. etc.) work out at that school and whether the way they implement it there would be comfortable for her.  The psych was also really helpful to us, talking with us about what she would need to succeed in a variety of environments and what she should look for.  

 

For us, evals, full psych/neuropsych evals, were a HUGE STEP in getting our peace with school work.  It took me a full year from the time someone first suggested it to the time I really took the plunge.  I had multiple people writing me backchannel begging me to. Don't make us form a haunt brigade.  Just do it.  :D

 

 

[PeterPan]

This is where my understanding gets murky, the connection between processing speed and dysgraphia ("dysgraphia" as a short-hand for the DSM's Disorder of Written Expression).  I was under the impression that they can go hand in hand, that dysgraphia can be a subset, or result, of types of processing speed issues, if that makes any sense.  Our psych report recommended typing as a way to improve speed of output in the context of school, as a practical matter, as opposed to the College Board context here.  That recommendation was based on the Coding subtest score, IIRC.

 

Eta, I think my disconnect is the fact that on the ability side, the Coding subtest of the WISC is one possible measure of fine motor dysgraphia, which is also one part of the processing speed score.  In addition the CB requires a presumably objective low-level achievement percentile score ("fine motor problems present severity in organization, presentation of ideas, richness of language, complex language structure" from when a computer accommodation might be available for written portion of CB tests).  I'm not sure I see that a DSM diagnosis is relevant as much as particular test scores and I'm beginning to assume that a 2e student with writing skills in terms of language output that are not below grade level will not find this particular accommodation available.  Is that correct?

 

Off to read about what it takes for extra time - if anyone has ballpark percentiles that would allow accommodation for extra time, or information about what sort of difference must be show between timed and untimed tests, I'm all ears.

I know of a 2E student with a dysgraphia label, so there are ways to sort it out.  You think about what we're really dickering over.  It's one thing to question whether a student should be able to type his high school assignments.  I'm all for that in my dd's case.  It's another thing to walk up to the CB or a college prof and say my dd CAN'T hand write that essay response test because she has a disability.  She gets the extended testing time, but *as of right now* she doesn't get the typing accommodation.  But yes, it's enough of an issue that I know she won't be able to write an AP exam with essay questions, ugh.  At least that's my take right now.

 

In our case, there were some oddities with the evals (OT saying one thing, np saying another).  It was our first time.  I'll follow up on it much harder next time, because it will be the eval before CB submissions for accommodations.  I was in a whirlwind the first time through.

[swimmermom3]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I feel slightly overwhelmed right now, but have a whole bunch of notes on my trusty legal pad along with the to-do list. The cost of neuro-psych testing is a bit daunting if not covered by insurance, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. We'll start with the COVD.

 

OhElizabeth, you won't have to haunt me. In another one of those weird twists of fate, we heard yesterday of yet another young man, so very dear to our family, that is lost and wandering. That makes the third one in just over a year. Heart-break is compelling me to move down my checklist and make my calls.

 

:grouphug: I know several of you have walked tough roads. Thank you again for sharing the wisdom you've gained. It means a lot.

[PeterPan]

Keep us posted on how it goes!  Remember, you also have the LC board to post on...  It's an awesome place...  :)

[8filltheheart]

It is expensive and it can also take a long time to get an appt. I had my 12th and 9th graders screened and was told both were fine, so be prepared that it might take more to get to the root problem. The delay in thinking through to connection and output seem more related to processing speed to me than anything else.

 

I would recommend seeing if you can get a neuropsy appt scheduled now bc it can sometimes take months to get in. Bc he is a rising jr, your time is ticking and you really don't have time to wait and see. Just schedule beyond the CODV and then you can always cancel. I would be most concerned about the ap in May.

[Corraleno]

I would second Kai's suggestion of the Eides, but unfortunately they have not been accepting new patients since last June.  :sad: 

I would highly recommend reading their books, though. They are both neurologists and they literally "wrote the book(s)" on these kinds of 2E issues, especially dyseidetic or "stealth" dyslexia. They explain things in a very thorough and integrated way — and with a very positive spin (The Dyslexic Advantage, the "crow & turkey" video on their blog, etc.) that may make Swimmerdude much more comfortable with the idea of testing and accommodations. They will also give you a lot of information to take with you to various testing & accommodation meetings. 

 

The Mislabeled Child

 

The Dyslexic Advantage

 

One thing to be aware of, which 8Fill brought up, is that it's harder to get accommodations if a student has been doing well without them. In order to get around that, you will need to demonstrate that although he was doing "fine," he was not working up to potential. The testing will need to show a significant gap between IQ and achievement. So, for example, if testing suggests that his PSAT score should have been much higher given his IQ, and also demonstrates that he has significant deficits in processing speed and/or working memory, then that will help your case. You do want to pursue this as quickly as possible, though, because the CB is somewhat suspicious of kids who suddenly get diagnosed with LDs just in time for the SATs.

 

Jackie

 

 

[swimmermom3]

:blush: You all are going to think I am an idiot. I was thinking less about outside academic accommodations, and more about the fact that I am always on his case to work faster. It doesn't sit well with me that I may very well be asking something of him that he is truly not capable of doing, and it's not just being a "typical teen." This is a kid who likes a challenge.  I gave him the chance to back down on AP European History to make it just a great, enjoyable European history course. No dice. I was the one that cried with frustration with that failed negotiation.

[8filltheheart]

:blush: You all are going to think I am an idiot. I was thinking less about outside academic accommodations, and more about the fact that I am always on his case to work faster. It doesn't sit well with me that I may very well be asking something of him that he is truly not capable of doing, and it's not just being a "typical teen." This is a kid who likes a challenge. I gave him the chance to back down on AP European History to make it just a great, enjoyable European history course. No dice. I was the one that cried with frustration with that failed negotiation.

But, if he is college bound, if you are going to pursue this, it only makes sense to seek the full benefits of this for his future success. It will be frustrating for you both if in hindsight you think if only we had done this 3 months earlier.

[PeterPan]

Swimmer, a couple ideas to help you find someone.  Although there are really astounding docs out there, it doesn't necessarily have to be the *best* doc to be a good eval.  Things that I found differentiated psychs and might help you sort through them and find someone more quickly?

 

-involvement with your state dyslexia board or a presence in the homeschooling community doing lectures, dyslexia school screenings, etc.  Call the dyslexia school in your state and see who they refer to.  See who is on the board for your state org.  

 

- how many hours they spend testing.  Ours did 6-8, and you'll hear as low as 1-2 or as high as 3 days and 12+ hours.  Varies with the psych, so ask.

 

-length of their write-ups.  I've heard everything from 3 pages to 20+.  Ours was 6 pages, and while I could have wished for more, we survived.  It's expensive enough and they're going to charge you by the hour for that work.  The higher cost usually reflects how much testing they're doing or how long the write-ups will be.  You can ask them outright, or at least I did.  :D

 

-how comfortable they are with homeschooling.  Some actually give curriculum recs which I didn't need and I doubt you want.  You at least want someone who is homeschooling-friendly, who isn't going to leave you discouraged by implying that everything is your fault.  If you think it can't happen, well...  

 

-returning phone calls promptly.  Most returned my calls promptly and spent say 10-15 minutes answering my questions.  Only one didn't till I called again, but he's the most popular, the most busy, and has a VERY long wait list.

 

If time is the issue, the guy you can get into in one month may be adequate.  See what you can get. 

[katilac]

I am usually strongly on the side of getting evaluations done, but I just don't see the need for it here. He is doing quite well in challenging classes. Advanced, close reading IS hard work. Writing out upper math problems DOES take a lot of time. Plenty of kids run out of time on tests. Schools do spend a few days on a topic and then test. 

 

If he gets headaches when reading, I would certainly get the more advanced eye test done. If I didn't feel like the school was giving a solid math foundation, I wouldn't send him. But I don't see anything that would make me think he has issues beyond the norm. Advanced academics are hard. 

[8filltheheart]

I am usually strongly on the side of getting evaluations done, but I just don't see the need for it here. He is doing quite well in challenging classes. Advanced, close reading IS hard work. Writing out upper math problems DOES take a lot of time. Plenty of kids run out of time on tests. Schools do spend a few days on a topic and then test.

 

If he gets headaches when reading, I would certainly get the more advanced eye test done. If I didn't feel like the school was giving a solid math foundation, I wouldn't send him. But I don't see anything that would make me think he has issues beyond the norm. Advanced academics are hard.

I do agree to a certain extent. If the point is not for accommodations, I personally wouldn't test. Backing off at home is not going to be a good idea bc college is just a step up. His scores are certainly high, so they alone are not indicative to me of a kid who hasn't learned to cope.

 

I know with our ds, the discrepancy b/t timed and untimed standardized testing was the difference between high and near perfect. The only place that matters is for scholarship $$ and really competitive admissions. He really doesn't need accommodations in school. He did know, however, that schools like UChicago, Cal Tech, and Stanford would not be good matches bc of the pace of the quarter system over a regular semester.....I guess that his own version of accommodations.

[PeterPan]

I am usually strongly on the side of getting evaluations done, but I just don't see the need for it here. He is doing quite well in challenging classes. Advanced, close reading IS hard work. Writing out upper math problems DOES take a lot of time. Plenty of kids run out of time on tests. Schools do spend a few days on a topic and then test. 

 

If he gets headaches when reading, I would certainly get the more advanced eye test done. If I didn't feel like the school was giving a solid math foundation, I wouldn't send him. But I don't see anything that would make me think he has issues beyond the norm. Advanced academics are hard. 

On the plus side, sometimes the eye doc will run some screening tools and make a referral or tell you if they think it's something beyond the norm that ought to be checked.  

[swimmermom3]

I wanted to give you all an update. We saw the COVD. While there was nothing outstanding, she did discover that there was a "convergence" issue. I"m still unsure about the terminology. If I have this right, at rest one's eyes should be forward; when reading, they should both focus inward. When ds's eyes relax, they focus "outward," this means he is working harder when he reads and could probably explain the headaches. He is getting reading glasses next week. I have the neuropsych test scheduled and it is a few weeks out, so this should give us time to see if the glasses help speed up his reading. His eyes also don't always relax when they should, so this adds to the problem.

 

I really appreciate all of the help. As a mom, it's sometimes hard to know if your gut instinct is just being a protective mom or an unrealistic mom, or if you are making excuses for your child or if there is a genuine problem. I am guessing a regular eye exam would have shown us 20/20 vision (slight hypermetropia) with no explanation for the headaches. I would never have thought to go further than that.

[Julie of KY]

Hope this helps. Simply getting glasses to reduce the stress of reading has made a big impact on two of my kids (dramatic for one).

[swimmermom3]

Hope this helps. Simply getting glasses to reduce the stress of reading has made a big impact on two of my kids (dramatic for one).

 

Julie, this is  good to hear. He is getting so frustrated. Until he gets the glasses, I try to break up the day by doing some of the reading for him so he can rest his head for a bit.

[PeterPan]

I wanted to give you all an update. We saw the COVD. While there was nothing outstanding, she did discover that there was a "convergence" issue. I"m still unsure about the terminology. If I have this right, at rest one's eyes should be forward; when reading, they should both focus inward. When ds's eyes relax, they focus "outward," this means he is working harder when he reads and could probably explain the headaches. He is getting reading glasses next week. I have the neuropsych test scheduled and it is a few weeks out, so this should give us time to see if the glasses help speed up his reading. His eyes also don't always relax when they should, so this adds to the problem.

 

I really appreciate all of the help. As a mom, it's sometimes hard to know if your gut instinct is just being a protective mom or an unrealistic mom, or if you are making excuses for your child or if there is a genuine problem. I am guessing a regular eye exam would have shown us 20/20 vision (slight hypermetropia) with no explanation for the headaches. I would never have thought to go further than that.

If he's having convergence problems, are they recommending therapy?  That's one of the things vision therapy (VT) is most successful at.  Reading glasses for it can aggravate the convergence problems.  (reducing the strain to converge, the eyes converge even less)  Definitely something to watch.  When dd got her first reading glasses, she went from some headaches but functional to severe, constant headaches and non-functional.  We did the VT, and now she wears bifocal contacts.  She needed some support, yes, but she also needed the therapy.  And I don't know that his reading speed will improve without the VT.  If there's convergence insufficiency, other things usually domino (visual processing, depth perception, etc.).  Did she do a full developmental exam and hook him up to a visa graph, etc.?  The visa graph has infrared goggles and hooks them up to a computer to track eye movements when reading.  It will show regressions, line skipping, etc.  Without that full eval, you don't know if those things are occurring.  If they are, you want VT, not just glasses.  When the eyes aren't converging, you get double images, which causes the brain to switch eyes and just use one at a time to resolve the problem.  So when you say someone has reading issues, it might not be merely that they're tired, though it can be.  It can be that physically you have to go back in and train the brain on how to function.

 

Whatever, just saying convergence issues are why people do months and months of VT.  But here's to hoping just the glasses do it for you.  :)

 

That's exciting that you'll be doing the psych testing next.  That should be hugely informative!

[Julie of KY]

I agree that glasses without therapy can make the convergence worse in the long-term. Ask lots of questions. My kids are in VT as well as having glasses.

 

When my daughter put her glasses on the first day, she played a board game that night. She was reading the cards aloud and we all were struck by how fluently she was reading - I had never heard her read like that. She simply has low plus glasses, no prism or anything else.

 

My boys got microprism glasses, and then we added microprisms to my glasses as well. They took some getting used to, but make it easier for all of us.

[swimmermom3]

If he's having convergence problems, are they recommending therapy?  That's one of the things vision therapy (VT) is most successful at.  Reading glasses for it can aggravate the convergence problems.  (reducing the strain to converge, the eyes converge even less)  Definitely something to watch.  When dd got her first reading glasses, she went from some headaches but functional to severe, constant headaches and non-functional.  We did the VT, and now she wears bifocal contacts.  She needed some support, yes, but she also needed the therapy.  And I don't know that his reading speed will improve without the VT.  If there's convergence insufficiency, other things usually domino (visual processing, depth perception, etc.).  Did she do a full developmental exam and hook him up to a visa graph, etc.?  The visa graph has infrared goggles and hooks them up to a computer to track eye movements when reading.  It will show regressions, line skipping, etc.  Without that full eval, you don't know if those things are occurring.  If they are, you want VT, not just glasses.  When the eyes aren't converging, you get double images, which causes the brain to switch eyes and just use one at a time to resolve the problem.  So when you say someone has reading issues, it might not be merely that they're tired, though it can be.  It can be that physically you have to go back in and train the brain on how to function.

 

Whatever, just saying convergence issues are why people do months and months of VT.  But here's to hoping just the glasses do it for you.   :)

 

That's exciting that you'll be doing the psych testing next.  That should be hugely informative!

 

Elizabeth, the provider we used does a considerable amount of vision therapy, but she did not feel the issue was severe enough to warrant that. There is no double or blurred vision. The only symptom he has is the headaches. The reading glasses have a prism I believe. The issue is so low on the scale, I still don't know how big a part of the slowness it plays.

[PeterPan]

Well it will be interesting to see how it pans out!  I'm glad you're getting such good help!  :)

[mckive6]

Hi Lisa,

I just want to add that we are going through almost the same exact situation. I have wondered for awhile if "something" is going on.  My dd, a sophomore, has always needed more time in elementary and middle school (ps and private school) for tests, and especially writing.  Her test scores were always fairly high so the school continually said they couldn't help  her.  She's always been very good in all language arts subjects, but has issues with math, and science that involves math.  We started homeschooling in 8th grade, and things were better for a year or so, but she still needed more time to complete tasks than I had expected.  Then, in 9th grade, she took AP US history and Geometry, with great teachers, but she spent lots of time on these classes, to the point that our home classes got pushed aside.

 

This year she's taking 2 AP courses online, Honors Chemistry at the public high school, French dual enrollment, Algebra 2 online with Jann, and a few electives at home.  In November, she got extremely frustrated when she couldn't finish a chemistry test, and got a poor grade.  She said she has to check and recheck her work because she occasionally writes the problem down wrong, and doesn't catch the error the first time.  In class,it takes her a lot longer than her peers to figure out the problems.  She learns the concepts pretty well, but the math takes a long time. She's getting a B+, and has spent many hours with a tutor and with my husband, working through many extra problems.  I will say she only takes classes with teachers that come highly recommended by her cross country and track teammates, or that she knows well.  After some miserable years with teachers that didn't "get" her (she's quiet in class), we are super careful.  This teacher has been great.  

 

She's worn glasses since 5th grade, and we knew she had extropia (sp?) meaning her eye turns out.  She has always seen a pediatric opthamologist but I decided to take her to an OD in December for a second opinion, and yes, she has convergence insufficiency.  She's in vision therapy now, but it is so painful for her, that she hasn't done it regularly.

 

My dd has been complaining about distractions also.  She's always been an avid reader but textbooks just do her in.  I didn't know until recently that in AP US history (love Mrs. Richman, by the way!) she skipped reading the textbook and just listened to the Great Course US History mp3's.  I'm sure part of that is the fact that she sees double and has blurry vision.  She also said her vision is double long distance, so I have to get that checked out.

 

Meanwhile, I decided to also pursue neuropysch testing, just not knowing if vision could be the whole problem. Now, as we get closer to the date, I keep second guessing myself.  She's a sophomore, so I feel like it's now or never.  Extra time in classes, perhaps for standardized tests and college may be necessary.   I just want to help her, and hope we get some answers, but we don't know if having this documentation could be a problem with colleges.

 

One interesting thing: the first thing the psychologist asked about was what hand she uses for writing, what foot she kicks with and what eye she uses to look in a telescope.  My dd has mixed dominance so that could be an indicator of a problem, because her brain can't access things as efficiently as a brain that has only one dominance.  I hope you could follow that! 

 

Hope that helps!

Pauline

 

[PeterPan]

 

Hi Lisa,

I just want to add that we are going through almost the same exact situation. I have wondered for awhile if "something" is going on.  My dd, a sophomore, has always needed more time in elementary and middle school (ps and private school) for tests, and especially writing.  Her test scores were always fairly high so the school continually said they couldn't help  her.  She's always been very good in all language arts subjects, but has issues with math, and science that involves math.  We started homeschooling in 8th grade, and things were better for a year or so, but she still needed more time to complete tasks than I had expected.  Then, in 9th grade, she took AP US history and Geometry, with great teachers, but she spent lots of time on these classes, to the point that our home classes got pushed aside.

 

This year she's taking 2 AP courses online, Honors Chemistry at the public high school, French dual enrollment, Algebra 2 online with Jann, and a few electives at home.  In November, she got extremely frustrated when she couldn't finish a chemistry test, and got a poor grade.  She said she has to check and recheck her work because she occasionally writes the problem down wrong, and doesn't catch the error the first time.  In class,it takes her a lot longer than her peers to figure out the problems.  She learns the concepts pretty well, but the math takes a long time. She's getting a B+, and has spent many hours with a tutor and with my husband, working through many extra problems.  I will say she only takes classes with teachers that come highly recommended by her cross country and track teammates, or that she knows well.  After some miserable years with teachers that didn't "get" her (she's quiet in class), we are super careful.  This teacher has been great.  

 

She's worn glasses since 5th grade, and we knew she had extropia (sp?) meaning her eye turns out.  She has always seen a pediatric opthamologist but I decided to take her to an OD in December for a second opinion, and yes, she has convergence insufficiency.  She's in vision therapy now, but it is so painful for her, that she hasn't done it regularly.

 

My dd has been complaining about distractions also.  She's always been an avid reader but textbooks just do her in.  I didn't know until recently that in AP US history (love Mrs. Richman, by the way!) she skipped reading the textbook and just listened to the Great Course US History mp3's.  I'm sure part of that is the fact that she sees double and has blurry vision.  She also said her vision is double long distance, so I have to get that checked out.

 

Meanwhile, I decided to also pursue neuropysch testing, just not knowing if vision could be the whole problem. Now, as we get closer to the date, I keep second guessing myself.  She's a sophomore, so I feel like it's now or never.  Extra time in classes, perhaps for standardized tests and college may be necessary.   I just want to help her, and hope we get some answers, but we don't know if having this documentation could be a problem with colleges.

 

One interesting thing: the first thing the psychologist asked about was what hand she uses for writing, what foot she kicks with and what eye she uses to look in a telescope.  My dd has mixed dominance so that could be an indicator of a problem, because her brain can't access things as efficiently as a brain that has only one dominance.  I hope you could follow that! 

 

Hope that helps!

Pauline

 

Pauline, you might come to the LC board and gab with OneStep over there, as she's dealing with the same thing.  Well her ds' eye goes up, not to the side, but yes the VT is hard.  Actually though, VT is really hard for many, many kids.  When we did ours, dd wasn't in high school, so there wasn't that pressure to keep going with academics.  We basically stopped everything else because it was so fatiguing and so painful.  We got radical changes within 2-3 months, but those were some ugly months!  What you might do, since you're so close to the end of the school year, is just do whatever she can tolerate now (10 minutes a day done really faithfully, even if that only gets her through 1 or 2 exercises), then as soon as some of these online classes let up and her summer begins go at it HARD.  But it really might be the case that you have to help her do it anyway, like even though it hurts, even if she gripes, even if it requires severe consequences or laying down the law or withholding Facebook or whatever.  Sometimes people are surprised by how hard it is (we have a number of threads like this going on LC right now), and you really do have to be firm and step up to make it happen.

 

Given that you know you have a vision problem, I would do the psych eval after the VT.  She may have some visual processing issues caused by the vision function problems, and you want all that corrected first.  You want those scores to be accurate and not affected by the vision problem you already know is there, since you're not likely to pay to do it again.  At least that's my two cents.

[MtnTeaching]

Ds had convergence issues that we found when he was young. He would almost cry when he had to read in first grade.  I took him in for vision therapy and found that his eyes would relax out just like your ds.  We did formal vision therapy the rest of first grade and even his ps teacher would work with him several times throughout the day.  I remember one of the things we would do a home was to take a pencil and hold it a few inches in front of the bridge of his nose, then slowly move the pencil closer as he would work on "crossing his eyes" and strengthening his eye muscles.  At that point, it definitely helped him and by the end of the year, he did not need VT anymore.

 

Dd, on the other hand, had exactly the opposite problem.  Her eyes would cross and we had to work the opposite way with her.  VT helped both children.  With dd, though, the reading problems persisted until we realized that she was also dealing with dyslexia.  Unfortunately, dyslexia is not as easily fixed as a convergence problem.