Lowering phD enrollments

[8filltheheart]

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/12/johns_hopkins_plans_to_lower_ph_d_enrollment_and_raise_grad_student_stipends.single.html

 

 

[Arcadia]

Didn't know the graduate stipend is so low. Hubby's stipend was $3k per month back in 2001.  

Isn't PhD enrollment driven by research grants here?  For my alma mater, there is a limit in how many PhD students each lecturer can have.  Each PhD project have to be funded by a research grant so all projects have some sort of commercial value.

Going by the article, if there is less employment prospect for PhD holders that JHU is graduating, then it is their decision to cut the enrollment down until it is a closer match to market demand. If the university was lowering enrollment to raise the tuition fee, that would be a different issue altogether.

My hubby had a hard time job hunting because his is a niche.  If his engineering school have churn out many people with PhD in the same niche field, there would likely be more unemployed or not getting the job they really wanted. My hubby wanted R&D but his first job was in manufacturing and he waited until a R&D job open up in another company.  

 

[FairProspects]

 

Isn't PhD enrollment driven by research grants here? 

 

Not in liberal arts! Those kinds of grants are few and far between if they exist at all after the recession.

[Gwen in VA]

Fascinating. Thanks for posting.

 

I have two kids who are likely to get Ph.D.'s (one is already a qualified candidate and one is intending to go that route), and reading about the poor employment statistics is depressing. In philosophy, for every 17 Ph.D.'s granted, there is ONE tenure-track position open!

 

Thankfully employment prospects are better in STEM fields, though I realize they are not great.

 

The advice my kids got was to only apply to top-ranked (not merely highly-ranked) programs. Those graduates will still stand out because of the reputation of the program.

 

Gone are the days of our parents, when universities were expanding like crazy and having a Ph.D. from anywhere went a long way towards guaranteeing a tenure-track position!

[garddwr]

Interesting article. I wonder what other universities facing similar issues are doing?

[creekland]

If there is less demand for graduates, it makes sense to take fewer in.  Otherwise the news shouts "_____ has a PhD from Johns Hopkins and can't find a job."  Those aren't headlines anyone wants.

 

Middle son has been exposed to research for a little while now - and has quickly decided he probably doesn't want to go that route.  It's not that research is bad.  (I'm not talking about research that shows those who stay up at night are more likely to be tired in the morning... ;) ).  The research he's been involved with has been cutting edge medical stuff both still in the petri dish with G proteins and clinical with better Lazy Eye treatments.  No, the problem isn't the research. It's the effort needed to get funding to do the research.  The recession has not been good for science research.  No one sees it improving.  Fewer $$ means fewer jobs and high competition for the jobs out there.

 

His experience is not alone.  We have friends who work for companies involved in medical research - same thoughts.

 

He is trying for an overseas research position this summer.  I've no idea if he will get it or not, but it's just a summer thing most likely.  His plan A is still med school (or MAYBE MSTP - a combo of med school and research).

[G5052]

Yup.  Enrollment is flat at the community college where I work.  They hired one new professor in the fall (PhD in a STEM field) among the three campuses.  He had been working as an adjunct at four different colleges and was hired with the expectation that he might have to teach at two campuses.  Teaching jobs are few and far between.

[kiana]

Job market is freaking horrible in most fields. Even in the fields where it's merely bad and not horrible, you have to be willing to move anywhere in the US in order to have a chance at a job.

 

I landed a tenure-track job across the country from my family, in a small town 2 hours from the nearest city, and I was thrilled to get one offer. (The job is awesome, btw)

[8filltheheart]

Ok, so this is where my guidance counselor hat freak-out begins. With ds wanting to go to graduate school in physics, should he be prepared for an alternative career path? The options he has sort of weighed back and forth are

 

1- going to a higher ranked university, double majoring in math and physics and really digging into research. (He loves theory, both in math and physics.).

 

2- going to someplace like U AL where his AP scores will be accepted and his credits will transfer and triple majoring in physics, math, and electrical engineering. (This option was one presented by the dean of the physics dept when ds met with him.)

 

When we have been visiting various physics depts, the researchers have all been involved in things like the physics of surface or material engineering. That is definitely not where his interests are. His passion is in astronomy and celestial mechanics, but he does realize that opportunities in those areas are rare and that he does have to be employable.

[regentrude]

Ok, so this is where my guidance counselor hat freak-out begins. With ds wanting to go to graduate school in physics, should he be prepared for an alternative career path? The options he has sort of weighed back and forth are

 

1- going to a higher ranked university, double majoring in math and physics and really digging into research. (He loves theory, both in math and physics.).

 

2- going to someplace like U AL where his AP scores will be accepted and his credits will transfer and triple majoring in physics, math, and electrical engineering. (This option was one presented by the dean of the physics dept when ds met with him.)

 

When we have been visiting various physics depts, the researchers have all been involved in things like the physics of surface or material engineering. That is definitely not where his interests are. His passion is in astronomy and celestial mechanics, but he does realize that opportunities in those areas are rare and that he does have to be employable.

 

I just discussed this with my DH, and here is what he suggests:

 

if your DS wants to go into academia, he should pursue the path that leads to research and plan for graduate school. The one caveat DH had as that he should make sure to obtain a degree in Physics and not in Astronomy, since the physics degree is broader and will offer more employment opportunities, even outside of the field.

 

Really, at this point I would encourage him to shoot for his dream and not be discouraged by the difficulty of obtaining a faculty position in 14 years!  He has in front of himself 4 years undergrad, 6 years PhD, two 2 year postdocs before he would even apply for the first position. Nobody can say what the funding situation will be, how the US will position itself in scientific research, what opportunities might be available abroad. We may have a new space program at that point - or we may send scientists to India and China  to work on their space program.

[kiana]

In addition to what regentrude said, I know a lot of people with math/physics degrees who did some further training after their bachelor's and were quite employable. My undergrad school had a few math majors every year take actuarial exams and intern, and that's an excellent (if boring) job. There were also people in my graduate school doing a (funded) master's in applied probability and statistics, and most of them got decent jobs as soon as they finished and a stipend to live on while they worked.

 

In other words -- I wouldn't worry *as much* about an employable bachelor's degree. I would make use of career services while at university and discuss alternative options for employment in physics/math but continue to aim at the theory he loves. He can change his mind later to go for employment -- it's not irrevocable.

[8filltheheart]

Thank you both.   He just finished reading the entire thread.    Academia with research really is what he wants.   This thread has really helped a lot b/c it does give him more direction while discerning his options.  (and re-incentivized him to go finish his entry for a major scholarship)

 

[Gwen in VA]

He should choose a college that sends some physics majors to grad school in physics each year. that way the profs will know the process and be able to mentor him. (Not every major at every college regularly sends students to grad school!)

 

Pursuing research isn't for everybody, but if that's what he wants to do he should pursue it -- and if life gives him other opportunities he prefers, he can always switch! :-)

 

Don't get downhearted because of statistics! Knowledge is good, but NOT when it discourages a person from pursuing a dream. After all, someone will end up as a tenured physics prof, and that someone may be your son!

[Caroline]

Thank you both. He just finished reading the entire thread. Academia with research really is what he wants. This thread has really helped a lot b/c it does give him more direction while discerning his options. (and re-incentivized him to go finish his entry for a major scholarship)

I have to say, some of the most amazing physicists I have known have worked for national labs doing cutting edge research. NIST, NSWC, Goddard, Marshall/NASA, Oak Ridge... They have all been Ph.Ds. Oak Ridge has had problems hiring physicists because of the need for security clearances. It's just another option for high level research. I loved my years working at NIST. I met some of the smartest people in the world there and got published in Nature.

[kiana]

I will add in that *anyone* considering graduate school should look at the placement stats for graduates of that program, and furthermore find out how many of them were placed in full-time positions after leaving graduate school. Find out where the people who have the job you want went and what they did while they were there.

 

For a specific example, my graduate school would not be a great place to go if you want a full-time position at a research university. There are people who've done that, but not that many. However, it has a pretty decent placement rate for teaching at community colleges or smaller 4-year schools (which is exactly the job I wanted), likely due to ample teaching opportunity within the program, some excellent teachers as role models, and some emphasis on applications rather than on strictly theory.

[ErinE]

In addition to what regentrude said, I know a lot of people with math/physics degrees who did some further training after their bachelor's and were quite employable. My undergrad school had a few math majors every year take actuarial exams and intern, and that's an excellent (if boring) job. There were also people in my graduate school doing a (funded) master's in applied probability and statistics, and most of them got decent jobs as soon as they finished and a stipend to live on while they worked.

 

In other words -- I wouldn't worry *as much* about an employable bachelor's degree. I would make use of career services while at university and discuss alternative options for employment in physics/math but continue to aim at the theory he loves. He can change his mind later to go for employment -- it's not irrevocable.

Also the business world (particularly finance) hires "quants" to create and run computer models.

[EmilyGF]

My husband is an astronomy professor.

 

One of his colleagues couldn't get a professorial job (and was unwilling to move around for a post-doc - something one *has* to be willing to do) so he took a job, making at least 150% of what hubby makes at a financial company with perks that are crazy!

 

I think STEM people who don't make it in academia have many other options, although they weren't their first choice.

 

Also, one should go as highly ranked as possible as long as possible if one wants to be in academia because academics care about things like that. (DH was Caltech-Princeton-Harvard.)

 

Emily

[creekland]

Thank you both.   He just finished reading the entire thread.    Academia with research really is what he wants.   This thread has really helped a lot b/c it does give him more direction while discerning his options.  (and re-incentivized him to go finish his entry for a major scholarship)

 

My youngest is headed toward tropical marine bio (or so he thinks at this point).  It's not a field with tons of employment options and what options are there are often not very high paying.  We're still telling him to follow his dream and in order to have his best shot at it we've identified what appears to be the best school for it.  Fortunately, it fits his stats well.  We don't want him to have a ton of debt, so will see what can be done (including taking a year off to work if necessary).  We did turn down a practically free (for him) school to have him go to the "better" place for his intended major - partially because we were concerned at how the degree from the "lesser" place would be perceived in a very competitive environment.

 

My two older kids had far more options as neither are looking at super competitive fields.  Well, becoming a doctor IS competitive, but it can be accomplished from many different undergrad places with the right stats and ECs.

 

All three have chosen schools "right" for them, but the schools differ.  Final choices were determined by costs and "gut feelings."

 

We'll see what happens down the road.  Right now I have no regrets.

[G5052]

I have to say, some of the most amazing physicists I have known have worked for national labs doing cutting edge research. NIST, NSWC, Goddard, Marshall/NASA, Oak Ridge... They have all been Ph.Ds. Oak Ridge has had problems hiring physicists because of the need for security clearances. It's just another option for high level research. I loved my years working at NIST. I met some of the smartest people in the world there and got published in Nature.

 

I worked for a national lab for ten years and loved it.  FWIW though, the one I worked for had programatic layoffs in 2013, and getting in is very difficult.  My uncle in his 70's was still working there, and decided to finally retire last year because it would preserve the job of someone younger.  If that is the goal, summer employment and/or post-doc work at one is highly recommended.  I got in without a PhD (very unusual) because of summer employment, and then did graduate school while working.  

[Jane in NC]

My husband is an astronomy professor.

 

One of his colleagues couldn't get a professorial job (and was unwilling to move around for a post-doc - something one *has* to be willing to do) so he took a job, making at least 150% of what hubby makes at a financial company with perks that are crazy!

 

I think STEM people who don't make it in academia have many other options, although they weren't their first choice.

 

Also, one should go as highly ranked as possible as long as possible if one wants to be in academia because academics care about things like that. (DH was Caltech-Princeton-Harvard.)

 

Emily

 

I was talking with a young cosmologist last summer who was moving to NYC to work in the financial industry, hedge funds in particular. He said that while he loved teaching and doing research, he looked at how much money his colleagues were making in the financial world and decided to make the move for that reason.  I said that I thought the financial industry had left their theoretical shenanigans behind after the 2007/8 mess but he said that the investment banks were hiring mathematicians and physicists as before.  Not sure that I take any comfort in this...

[Gwen in VA]

One thing to remember -- in grad school, most STEM students are essentially paid employees. The job isn't well-paid, but they get a survivable income. And since at least at dd's school, the stipend theoretically includes enough money to pay off student loans acquired as an undergrad, the money is quite good if you don't have loans.

 

I would not consider a STEM grad program that didn't come with a stipend that at least covered "basic" living expenses.

[Kareni]

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/12/johns_hopkins_plans_to_lower_ph_d_enrollment_and_raise_grad_student_stipends.single.html

 

Thanks for the link; the article made for interesting reading.

 

Lo these many years ago, I was accepted into the PhD program at JHU in Chemistry.   I visited but ended up choosing a different program at one of the Ivy League colleges.  At that time, my stipend was $625 per month.  That was in the mid-80s.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Catherine]

Regarding academia vs. industry: my friend's husband is a gifted super-achiever, someone who went to Harvard undergrad and did a Phd in genetics there as well. He got hired in a tenure track position as a research scientist at Stanford, but did not get tenure. So he left academia and took a position in industry (Genentech, I think) for a huge salary increase plus far better hours and equivalent benefits. They were absolutely thrilled to have him. In some fields, there is plenty of room for PhD's in industry.

 

At this point, my ds is hoping to major in math and physics, and I've been worried it's just too difficult...but reading this thread, I'm thinking I'll give him more encouragement and support! Plus, in fact, he has no definitely plan to pursue graduate school right now. But I know a few PhDs myself who are struggling along in really not good adjunct jobs, or worse yet, unskilled labor. That must be very, very discouraging after so much work.