n/m

[JenniferB]

I have them as word an excel docs, can you PM me your email address?

[Colleen in NS]

.

[Colleen in NS]

.

[Stellalarella]

Colleen, I had some guilt (misplaced)/worry in our transition from one church home to another.  About 15 months into the journey, I gained a better understanding of the situation (which I believe was God answering my prayers about the situation) and I have not experienced worry over it since.  I do still have caring friends from the former congregation.  The process took longer than I would have liked, but I can see how I've grown.  It has been possible for me to keep loving friendships with a few key folks and also make friends with brothers and sisters in Christ in our new church.  

 

One thing that helped me is knowing that even while we were at one church for so long, I still experienced the ebb and flow of friendships due to friends moving, stay-at-home mom friends going back to work or school, or other big life changes.  The church change was, really, just one more change to add to the list of all the other typical changes.

 

Our family has been reading through Acts lately--and it has struck me how much change the churches were going through, in doctrine, in agreeing on doctrine, who was going on missions (Paul, Barnabas, John Mark...).  If I feel the pang of pain over church disagreements, if I feel the work in keeping relationships or making new ones, If I have to choose forgiveness and love and move on, well, t hen, I am just one of the many who've done it before me.

 

HTH

Andrea

[SproutMamaK]

 

This isn't necessarily directed to the OP, but in response to the idea of gathering information before joining a church, as mentioned above by Homeschool Mom in AZ, what if we went even further than requesting documents of our modern churches and we read the documents, council meetings, practices and creeds of the earliest churches?   I found it really helpful in finding direction two years ago when my whole Christian world was turned upside down, to read the earliest documents.

 

Some good online resources, which are free and easy to access for reading ancient Christian documents are:  

ccel.org

This one puts the documents in chronological order: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html.

Wiki has some good articles on the ecumenical councils and the creeds, with links at the bottom for further reading.

 

Reading the texts if the ancient liturgies will give a picture of how they used to "do" church in the early generations.  Here are online texts of the earliest known liturgies:

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.ii.html

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.iii.html

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.iv.html

 

Reading these documents was so fascinating to me, I decided to dedicate an entire homeschool year to Church history.  So, after I read a bunch of the documents mentioned above, I included our kids in the study.  We memorized the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, we read the stories of the early Christian's lives, we learned about the practices of the early Christians, we studied the ancient liturgy section by section, we studied the art and the meaning behind why images were painted the way they were, we learned about the early schisms and the ecumenical councils which brought correction to heresy.  And much more.  I am willing to share my plans, book lists, and resources for anyone who wants them.  It is a fascinating study. 

 

Warning though, the early church believed and practiced some things that might shock a person who has only known the modern American version of Christianity. It could shake your whole world to read these docs.  It could make your life really hard.

 

 

Any chance you could PM me those book lists? I'd be very interested to read more in depth about those issues; it's hard to find good info on it that hasn't been sanitized to match the motivations of the modern church.

 

 

[Colleen in NS]

.

 

[Susan in TN]

(((Hugs)))

 

I'm sorry you are going through this. Leaving a church can be very hard, but also VERY necessary.

 

(((More Hugs)))

[Stellalarella]

I will probably get to that point sometime - I'm just not there yet, lol.  Thank you for chiming in with words of comfort.

 

I finally had a bit of a cry this evening while e-mailing a friend about it all.

((Hugs))  I hear you.  ((Hugs))

[gardenmom5]

 

(about meeting one last time before leaving) I think it's about wanting to "bless" us so that he can feel he had closure with us - he talked about that on the phone, that he just wanted to bless us in our new journey.  Oh, and he said that the next time we saw each other, he wouldn't be thinking anything bad,

 

um - I call BS.  if he *really* wasn't going to be "thinking anything bad", why on earth would he feel a need to say that?  why would it even *occur* to him?  someone who is altruistic wouldn't even think that.  if you meet him to "say goodbye", my money is on he'll attempt to lay a guilt trip on you about how unchristian you are being and he's worried about your salvation (so stay here and give me money.)  he's already given numerous examples of how manipulative he is.

[gardenmom5]

The proper goodbye thing might be public/to the congregation. Ime, it puts you in the clear position of "leaving us" and lets the pastor look like such a good, generous leader to 'bless' people who are leaving. It also gives a public opportunity to say God is moving someone...so now God is the reason someone is leaving, not the pastor.

 

I think you are being very optimistic.   I think he will take the opportunity to shame them (in front of the congregation to send a message to anyone else to think twice before leaving, or not).  he's demonstrated manipulative tendencies already.

 

[T'smom]

If people ask you why you left/are leaving, you can simply say "we feel God is leading us in a new direction". You don't have to get into details if you don't want to. And no one can argue with that line!

[happi duck]

I think you are being very optimistic.   I think he will take the opportunity to shame them (in front of the congregation to send a message to anyone else to think twice before leaving, or not).  he's demonstrated manipulative tendencies already.

 

 

I agree shame could be the motive.

 

I erred if my post came across as optimistic...it was based on experience with a manipulative pastor.  The "nice" public goodbye is just another manipulative tool.

 

It stinks that so many of us seem to have experience with manipulative pastors.

[Carol in Cal.]

When I left my previous church to join my current one, 18 years ago, I went and talked to the pastor of the old church first before I joined the new one.  I had been attending there for 14 years.  He was wonderful about it.  I told him that it was a great church but that I wanted to worship differently and go to a smaller one.  And I told him where I was going, and he said that they worship more or less the way that he had done when he was a kid (he was probably around 45-50 years old at that point, older than me).  He never tried to talk me into staying or guilted me in any way.  I felt no anger from him at all.  He asked me how they could improve, and I told him that I was not there to complain, but he was kind of encouraging, so I told him that I missed the emphasis on the church year that I had experienced before, and that I felt like our church was truly and intentionally excellent at everything except worship--great sermons, great small groups, great activities--but that our traditional worship was clearly not an emphasis point--that we had the same typos every week, that it was just not a focus at all.  And that I missed that increasingly over the years, and realized that it was central for me.  He was shocked that there were typos in the liturgy, and I was frankly kind of shocked that he didn't realize this, as anyone who knew it by heart would see what was missing or changed (which kind of proved my point, unfortunately).  Other than that we had a very calm, cheerful conversation.

 

My husband stayed a member there, and our daughter was baptized there at his request.  I attended my new church faithfully but whenever my husband went to the old one I would leave mine early to meet him there.  After about 1 1/2-2 years my husband joined my new church also.  (I did not ask him to do so or hint or anything.)

 

The pastor and I parted friends and we are friends to this day.

 

That is how a non-manipulative, mature pastor handles something like that.

[texasmama]

We broke up with our church of fifteen years this year. I had mentally left several years prior, but dh hung on. He finally agreed to leave, we embarked on a painful process of trying out churches until we tried the one we now attend. We are amazingly happy there, and we are so glad we made the change. Trust me when I say there was hurt and baggage from the relationship and the break up, but it becomes much less relevant when you find that new, perfect for you relationship with another church.

[Colleen in NS]

.

[mytwomonkeys]

I finally did a bit of reading via google last night on vision-casting. I had an idea of what it probably meant, and I was right. And it seems to be a term that mainly applies to churches. It made me feel uncomfortable. On one hand, I can see it as being somewhat useful - a way to help people recognize potential within their group as a group. On the other hand, I can see it being all about what one leader wants, and a way for him/her to further his/her agenda.

 

(just to clarify, it was my friend he said the "not on my team" comment to; he told me that our stopping tithing was a vote. Same thing in his mind, I guess, lol)

 

I suspect this is why he wouldn't converse with me that day. And why he never addressed anything I wrote to him. You all can see even at the end that he didn't even say anything about his having brought up the financial issue (see, this is why I like grammar - I can now spot things like his use of the passive voice, so that he didn't actually take the responsibility of having brought it up in our phone conversation, lol!!! It just magically got brought into our exchange! ha - nice technique, but I called it. :D )

 

 

Thank you, PJ. What was good about this church is the PEOPLE. And yes to your second question. Most of the people there are good, caring, kindhearted people.

I'm not familiar with it, but I'm going to see if we have it on the Bach CD. You mentioned patience under attack - I'm somewhat nervous that if someone asks me why we aren't there anymore, and they don't see it my way, they are going to shun me or chastise me or tell me I probably misunderstood him. That sounds stupid written out. But if I'm asked, why should I hide the reason?

 

 

You know what? As I've been reading and responding to this thread, there have SO MANY other incidents involving him that I am remembering. I start to type out the stories, then I realize how ridiculous they sound. Since they involve other people, I won't type them out here. But I'll mention one more involving me. Years ago, I was sitting in the front row during the music worship time, and just standing and singing like I always do. Many people get physically involved in the music, but I don't. I have never been comfortable with that. But in this church, I've also felt like an oddball for not doing it. Anyway, I'm standing there quietly singing, when all of a sudden I see him up on the stage, trying to catch my eye. He glared at me and clapped his hands emphatically to the music, indicating he wanted me to clap. So, I robotically clapped. Because he had done it in front of everyone. Was I ever MAD. Later that night, I was at a church small group meeting, when one of the guys said, "Hey Colleen, what was that all about, with (name) getting you to clap??" Two other guys piped up and said, "yeah, we noticed that, too - what WAS that??" I said, "I don't know!!" and burst into tears. While I sobbed, those three guys started muttering and telling me, "You gotta tell him you didn't like that!" me: "I can't!" Them: "You have to!" So the next day, I called him and politely told him that I was very embarrassed by what he had done, and to please never interact with me like that from the stage/up front again. He told me he had been looking for someone to help him get people clapping. hm...except for that glaring look he had given me...anyway, he apologized. And then? He told me that I needed the Father's love, and he would pray for me, and then proceeded to pray over the phone. Yeah, I know what you're all thinking - I thought it, too, and I was rolling my eyes while he prayed on the phone. :D I guess that presumptiveness hasn't changed like I had hoped it would. Call me slow to realize - I am.

That is so weird and uncomfortable. I'm so sorry that happened!

[TranquilMind]

I'm sorry all this happened to you.

No ethical pastor has his nose in which members are tithing and how much.  That is a separate function from his job, and as a matter of ethics, he should remain outside of this knowledge.

He pressured you, and apparently he has forgotten that scripture explicitly states that one should be a cheerful giver NOT UNDER DURESS. 

 

 

[Peaceful Isle]

My dh is a pastor. He does not know who gives and how much. He likes it that way. That way he can minister to the church with a clear heart. Tithing is between God and his people.

[bethben]

Here's a different perspective.  We had some big differences with our former pastor.  He would show violent PG-13 movie clips (yes, the violent parts) in church where there were young children under 10.  We asked him to stop, he continued.  He then used us as an example of how parents should not shield their children but let them learn how to deal with evil rightly.  He never used our names, but we knew it was us.  He also had a problem with homeschoolers because we were shielding our children too much from the "real world".   There were others who disagreed with him on other subjects that he used as negative sermon examples.  We chose to stay in the church because of the people.  He was one person, not the whole church.  So, we never again had a great relationship with him- it was even a little awkward, but we had so many other people in the church that we loved and cared about.  Eventually, he left and moved on to what he considered bigger and better things.  We have a new pastor that's much less confrontational.  So, the church is not the pastor.  If you like the church and the people, the solution may be to just ignore the pastor's junk.

 

Beth

[Colleen in NS]

.

[bethben]

Thanks for sharing this perspective.  Because of all the great people there, we tried for a long time to stay and to ignore some other pressures that were coming more often.  But it got harder and harder as time went on, esp. this past year with his personal confrontations to us about money.  Plus, we know he is never going anywhere else - he started this church; he intends to stay (he said that publicly a few months ago).  During our last few months, we felt manipulation from him almost every week.  It got to be just too much.  Who wants to dread, every Saturday evening, getting up and going to church on Sunday?  Not I.  It was causing more and more problems in our family, and our kids were starting to question identifying as Christian (which I know is normal for teens - but they were really getting jaded because of one small part of the Church).

 

I hear you.  Every Saturday, I was always wondering if Sunday would be a service I would have to leave the room quickly to avoid having my 5 and 8 year old see some gruesome scene on a very large screen up front.  I was always tense because despite the fact we tried to get someone in leadership to tell us what the clips were, they stopped telling us or saying "it's mild" when it really wasn't.  Our former pastor had started the church also.  Part of the problem was is that there was no other church within 20 miles we felt would be what we wanted in a church.  So, we stayed and every time the lights dimmed for another movie clip, I was always ready to bolt.  I was sooo ready to leave, but like I said, we really had no good options and the pastor chose to be non-confrontational to us directly.  We agreed to disagree.  I guess what saved it was that there was a co-pastor of sorts that also spoke on Sundays and he tended to be video free. I knew it would be a good day on those Sundays.  

 

I'm sorry that you're having to switch.  It really is a hard thing to do.

 

Beth