Rep. Jack Kingston Proposes That Poor Students Sweep Floors In Exchange For Lunch

[FaithManor]

Sigh.

 

I was not denying anything.  See my repeated apologies and attempts to explain.

 

Look, my parents were Depression children.  My father grew up in a city.  In the summer, trucks from farms outside of town would drive through town and pick up boys to harvest fruit.  My father spent his summer days doing this to help his family.

 

I am not in denial that people were hungry or worked hard.

 

But guess what?  I did not want my son to grow up working when not in school from age six or eight years old on.  Frankly this is not the life I would choose for any of our children even if others did it or do it today.

 

Merry Christmas.

 

I do agree with this. Our modern society really isn't cut out for children to miss school to help their parents out economically. My grandparents' generation did that, however, the need for education was more basic in nature back then, truancy laws did not exist or if they did, were not applied to working through the harvest, or being kept home to assist ma with food preservation. Today is entirely different. Children desperately need a good education - the fact is that in most areas what is provided doesn't pass for even mediocre - missing school and instruction in order to assist parents would be a disaster.

 

In my area, even if these kids were not going to be beat up, verbally harassed and bullied, and ostracized for being kitchen or custodial help at the school (believe me, the popular kids in town...the ones whose parents have a few bucks...will absolutely get vicious about it), it would eat up instructional time. The cafeterias are not big enough to accommodate the whole school at once. The kids eat in staggered shifts and are only given 10-15 minutes to wolf down their food before they are forcibly evicted for the next class. So first off, the kids who have to wash the tables or sweep in order to get ready for the next class would probably not be able to even eat their food - a nice thing to do to children already possibly not eating enough to begin with - and second, since there is only 15 min. of recess after that, goodbye play time. If they had to do very much custodial work at all, I am fairly confident that it would run over into the first instructional period after the provided breakfast or lunch.

 

There is nothing about this situation that I find acceptable. I mean, even in my dad's day, if someone wanted to pick on a poor kid for being poor, this was his or her free speech right, but it also came with the freedom of a bunch of other kids in the school deciding to exercise some cultural discipline in the parking lot after school which pretty much ended the bullying. Now, the schools do NOTHING to protect children from this, and most of the other kids will not stand up or befriend a child on the wrong end of the bully out of fear due to insane policies at the school. The only thing that would come from such a stupid piece of legislation is the creation of more fodder for bullies, more children with emotional and mental problems from attending school, and already disadvantaged kids skipping out on meals at school in order to avoid having to do the manual labor that would publicly out them to the bullies as easy targets.

 

As for the depression, my grandparents were both raised on farms and had lots to eat due to already having fruit trees and gardens well cultivated and producing, plus livestock before the economy tanked. Their parents had food to spare and shared with others. But, my grandmother always said despite that sharing, they saw a lot of hunger around them. Occasionally a government truck would roll into town with apples or potatoes or bags of grain. However, it was too sporadic to help a lot of the people in town consistently. She herself lamented the lack of ability for gardening already lost. Her mother, realizing that if many of these families did not start raising at least some food, began teaching gardening to the neighbors and great-grandpa helped many men turn over the soil on their postage stamp yards and begin cultivating. Pots of tomato and pepper plants sprouted up on back porches, people were taught what foods could be scavenged from local state land - fiddlehead ferns, wild asparagus, etc. - and great-grandma taught food preservation...dehydration, pickling, salt brining, and canning. Her classes were well known at that time in her part of Missouri. They also taught people how to accommodate a broody hen and help her successfully raise a batch of chicks. Previous to the crash, they sold chicks and eggs. After that, they would give away excess hens and roosters because as great-gma put it, "All young'ins need good eggs in order to grow right." That was her personal belief and she stuck to it tenaciously.

 

At any rate, back to the subject at hand, we have to remember that what worked "back then" in terms of it being okay for kids to take part in the enterprise of providing for the family, worked because of the culture at the time. No shame in helping, kids who did were considered responsible and mature, and a school system designed for kids to miss instruction in order to do this (plus a community that would "take care of bullies" without being charged by the justice system for doing so). That is not the system we have today. What we have today scares the tar out of me for the fact that the education is so abysmal, and kids are so easily targeted and receive no protection nor are allowed the right to even self-defense - zero tolerance fighting policies usually means that any kid who defends himself is expelled with the bully too. It's a Lord of the Flies thing and frankly, what has come out of Jack Kingston's mouth is something that indicates to me not only 100% ignorance of the situation that many in poverty face, but colossal ignorance of our current educational crisis as well as a "silver spoon" elitist mentality that smacks of Victorian London.

 

Truly, I hope someone gave him a good verbal smack down. I hope he is not re-elected in his state.

[Jane in NC]

As for the depression, my grandparents were both raised on farms and had lots to eat due to already having fruit trees and gardens well cultivated and producing, plus livestock before the economy tanked. Their parents had food to spare and shared with others. But, my grandmother always said despite that sharing, they saw a lot of hunger around them. Occasionally a government truck would roll into town with apples or potatoes or bags of grain. However, it was too sporadic to help a lot of the people in town consistently. She herself lamented the lack of ability for gardening already lost. Her mother, realizing that if many of these families did not start raising at least some food, began teaching gardening to the neighbors and great-grandpa helped many men turn over the soil on their postage stamp yards and begin cultivating. Pots of tomato and pepper plants sprouted up on back porches, people were taught what foods could be scavenged from local state land - fiddlehead ferns, wild asparagus, etc. - and great-grandma taught food preservation...dehydration, pickling, salt brining, and canning. Her classes were well known at that time in her part of Missouri. They also taught people how to accommodate a broody hen and help her successfully raise a batch of chicks. Previous to the crash, they sold chicks and eggs. After that, they would give away excess hens and roosters because as great-gma put it, "All young'ins need good eggs in order to grow right." That was her personal belief and she stuck to it tenaciously.

 

 

Here comes another rabbit trail from the Queen of Tangents!

 

My mom grew up on a dairy farm but my urban father's family still grew a fair amount of food.  My grandparent's Midwestern urban home was constructed with a postage stamp front lawn and a large back yard that abutted an alley.  In the rear, my grandmother (even as an elderly woman) had grass only under her clothesline.  Every other inch was devoted to vegetables and fruits.

 

Think about today's subdivisions that don't allow one to plant tomatoes in the front yard or even small towns like mine that don't allow residents to have chickens.  Fortunately no one is tossing me off the island for growing blueberries in my front yard! 

 

I am happy to report that our Cooperative Extension Service has started community gardens at several elementary schools.  These could be an excellent science classroom where kids will have some practical skills tossed in.

 

The movement is small but some people are taking back their communities--having silly laws repealed, teaching food preservation classes, building community gardens on empty lots. There is hope.

[OneStepAtATime]

Since I like Jane's rabbit trail, I will add a few things at random....

 

We have started community gardens here, too, although none near our location yet.  Love it.  

 

When the kids were still in school, they had a very proactive science teacher who talked the administration into allowing them to create a really large raised bed garden in an area of concrete that was not being used for anything at all.  The kids loved learning about gardening and they got to harvest and use the food and the flowers there at the school.  It was awesome.

 

There are some HOA's in our area that do not allow gardens of any kind.  There is one that is especially militant and will not allow pets because pets might make your yard look messy.  Yards are regulated so the grass has to be a certain height and only certain plants are allowed.  You cannot put out lawn furniture, either.  The list goes on and on. This whole thing just seems ridiculous.

[Χά�ων]

What does religion have to do with this?!?!

 

Not exactly. Children learn through imitation. Their imitation is often acted out in play.

 

 

 

 

Do you subscribe to christianity?  It doesn't sound like it.  But if you do I would urge you to consider that people are made in the image of God.  All of them.  

 

All children should be spending their time in play.  Children learn thru play.

 

[Χά�ων]

What does religion have to do with anything?  it has to do with your culture and how you see the world.  On here it often has to do with uh, everything.  In the homeschool community it is generally germane.   I was responding to her absolutely dire assessment of humanity based on the (eyeroll) horrible IDLE public school children she apparently knows.

 

 

 

No, pretty much children learn through play.  Imitation of adult activity is often a form of play.  Do you need me to get a journal article or can we end this semantic disagreement and move forward, hopefully without continuing to denigrate the children in schools who are apparently doomed to idleness and begging at Heigh Ho's doorstep when the zombies arrive for us all?

 

I do not agree with her, I just think you could have left religion out of it and that your response is way off. I also think you are being rather rude.

 

As for her points about children not knowing how to feed themselves, I have to wonder if she meant without relying on a grocery store. I would have to agree that our society has deemed the skill of learning to hunt, gather, and grow our own food irrelevant. For many families, including my own, this is a highly valued skill. Personally, I am disgusted that so few people have any clue about the vast variety of edible plants and animals found in their own back yard. Go to the store, check out the produce section. Chances are very slim that you will see a true reflection of the variety of edible fruits and vegetables found in your area let alone for the continent or the world. The only exception is if you went in the middle of winter. Humans have long had to rely on storing food for the winter months because going down the street to the local grocer to buy produce shipping in from thousands of miles away is just not natural.

 

I am aware of the studies that show children learn through play. But I have yet to find anything that shows they can learn EVERYTHING through play and I have yet to meet a child who has been allowed to learn only through who has managed to be ready to join our society as an adult. Like it or not some things are required by our society. Reading is one of them and no matter how much you want it to be true, no matter how many studies you throw at me about children who would have otherwise learned to read without issue that they learned to read, that every child can learn to read through play. And in our society learning to read is a must. It is delusional to think otherwise. Every tried to get a drivers license? Ever tried to go any place you haven't been before? Even with a GPS you have to be able to read. Reading is not natural. I allowed my son to do the learn through play thing. It did not change the fact that he is severely dyslexic and needs years of intense reading instruction. It is not play. It is hard, hard work. If he is going to get along in our world independently he will have to be able to read. If it could be play then there would not be hundreds of threads just on this forum about teaching a child to read.

 

Oh and the whole he isn't developmentally ready argument is bunk for older children and teens. Too many parents of children with dyslexia are fed that line and it results in a child who needed intervention early on, not getting what they need. For some children, sure they will learn to read, but not all. Rarely all.

[unsinkable]

What does religion have to do with anything? it has to do with your culture and how you see the world. On here it often has to do with uh, everything. In the homeschool community it is generally germane. I was responding to her absolutely dire assessment of humanity based on the (eyeroll) horrible IDLE public school children she apparently knows.

 

 

 

No, pretty much children learn through play. Imitation of adult activity is often a form of play. Do you need me to get a journal article or can we end this semantic disagreement and move forward, hopefully without continuing to denigrate the children in schools who are apparently doomed to idleness and begging at Heigh Ho's doorstep when the zombies arrive for us all?

Yes, to children learn thru play.

 

And I want to die in the first wave of whatever destroys humanity. Be it zombies, a supervirus, a meteor, nuclear war, monkeys taking over, alien invasion, spontaneous dental hydroplosion. Just let me go first.

[SKL]

Actually, working in lunch rooms doesn't seem to be an issue with most people posting here.  I think what upset people was the idea that children whose parents have financial issues would be forced to work in the lunchroom to earn their food, but kids whose parents did not have financial difficulties would not have to work in the lunchroom.  The feeling with many was that if this were to be implemented, all kids should be allowed the possibility of working in the lunch room to earn extra pay or a free lunch or whatever so that it wouldn't become a class issue, or maybe some other more equitable plan should be put in place to help kids get lunches.  In other words, it seems wrong to single out and apparently punish kids for the financial state of their parents.  There were several suggestions for how helping out around the school could be a good thing, just open it up as an option to all students, not make it a mandatory punishment for being poor.

 

...probably not wording this very well.   Sorry.

 

What was the original proposal?  Was it to provide the option to work for lunch money?  If so, was he specific that the option would only be available to low-income families?

 

I have no problem with it being an option for everyone.  But the reality is that a lot of government-created work programs are not available to everyone.  Some are only available if your family is poor, or if you have a criminal / substance abuse history, if you're in a minority group, etc.  I remember being irritated when I was young because I did not qualify for certain jobs because I didn't have a criminal / substance abuse history.  So, more facts are needed.  If the guy was just trying out ideas that were not formed yet, maybe we should allow him to actually form and properly articulate his ideas before we decide he wants to punish poor kids for being poor.

 

[SKL]

Also, the idea that kids/people should at least have to put up a token exchange is not new.  It has been observed that when people something costs you even a little bit, you are much more likely to appreciate it and (where applicable) take care of it.  This is why folks who pay their way through school (or some part thereof) often do better than those who get a free ride, regardless of who is paying for the free ride.

 

Disclaimer:  when I was a kid, there were times when my family qualified for reduced-price or free lunches.  And we took advantage of the program.  I did eat free lunches.  I even took off school at least once to go stand in line for free cheese.  And it was tasty cheese.  I'm not for punishing kids for being poor at all.  But I am for developing a work ethic in all children.

 

I think the concern expressed (perhaps badly) is that being raised in a lifestyle built on entitlements is a long-term problem, and some folks are trying to address it in the next generation.  I would counter that there are entitled middle-class and rich kids who are too entitled as well.  I'd love to see them address this issue properly with all kids in the USA.

[LibraryLover]

That's not how the school lunch program works.

 

I don't think you know your subject matter here.

In my city they do advertise school lunches with large banners outside the district buildings. "Support our schools. Buy school lunches. " I assumed it is partly to help subsidize free lunches for others. (I'm for them, btw, and I don't think a child should have to work for that. There is not a huge amount of time to eat as it is. If lower income kids don't have to pay for a decent meal- and the lunches here are excellent, then their parents can use that money for transportation, or mittens etc. Making sure children are fed benefits society on many levels. It's not wasted money. )

[FaithManor]

Here comes another rabbit trail from the Queen of Tangents!

 

My mom grew up on a dairy farm but my urban father's family still grew a fair amount of food.  My grandparent's Midwestern urban home was constructed with a postage stamp front lawn and a large back yard that abutted an alley.  In the rear, my grandmother (even as an elderly woman) had grass only under her clothesline.  Every other inch was devoted to vegetables and fruits.

 

Think about today's subdivisions that don't allow one to plant tomatoes in the front yard or even small towns like mine that don't allow residents to have chickens.  Fortunately no one is tossing me off the island for growing blueberries in my front yard! 

 

I am happy to report that our Cooperative Extension Service has started community gardens at several elementary schools.  These could be an excellent science classroom where kids will have some practical skills tossed in.

 

The movement is small but some people are taking back their communities--having silly laws repealed, teaching food preservation classes, building community gardens on empty lots. There is hope.

Our community lobbied successfully against stricter zoning codes by using the

Michigan Right to Farm act as well as appealing for exemptions for small

livestock on behalf of kids who wanted to be involved in small livestock and

agriculture through 4H and FFA. Many retired individuals volunteered to assist

with the master gardener program at the extension office which is entirely

landscaped with fruit trees, bushes, and raised bed gardens...virtually no lawn

mowing now. Additionally, gardeners donate produce to our children's nutrition

classes and goes home in the arms of low income families. We are teaching

cooking a d food preservation courses.and in the county seat, we have a community

kitchen overseen during harvest season by licensed individuals. Anyone who can

get there can come use the dehydrators, canners, food processors, and other

equipment. We get donations of freezers containers, canning jars and lids, tubs etc

and distribute them to those willing to try. Sure we are probably only reaching

a small number of families, but our philosophy is if we wait for comprehensive

programs that reach huge numbers, we will remain largely paralyzed as a nation. We can't help fix the problem of undernourished children in New York city because we

don't have the resources. But we do have the means to help in our local community.

That's how meaningful change happens, one community at a time.

 

So another rabbit trail...I am all for teaching a work ethic to EVERYONE if that

will solve a community's issue. I am not for singling out low income children so

they canbecome even more targeted in what has become a dog eat dog educational

mess.

[OneStepAtATime]

Since I like Jane's rabbit trail, I will add a few things at random....

 

We have started community gardens here, too, although none near our location yet.  Love it.  

 

When the kids were still in school, they had a very proactive science teacher who talked the administration into allowing them to create a really large raised bed garden in an area of concrete that was not being used for anything at all.  The kids loved learning about gardening and they got to harvest and use the food and the flowers there at the school.  It was awesome.

 

There are some HOA's in our area that do not allow gardens of any kind.  There is one that is especially militant and will not allow pets because pets might make your yard look messy.  Yards are regulated so the grass has to be a certain height and only certain plants are allowed.  You cannot put out lawn furniture, either.  The list goes on and on. This whole thing just seems ridiculous.

 

 

That's crazy.  Sounds like a terrible place if one has kids too. 

Yes.  Absolutely crazy.  And I really do hope they don't have kids.  I have a cousin whose ex-husband worked hard to keep their lawn immaculate.  No one was allowed to walk on it and he got truly offended when they did.  I wonder what would have happened if they did.

[DragonFaerie]

The problem I have with kids working for their lunches is that it makes low-income kids practically walking "kick me" signs.  It singles them out and opens them up to yet another angle of bullying and torment.  Not being able to afford the newest tech toys or have the "right" clothes or whatever is already a problem.  Putting them on display, making it so very obvious that their families are poor and they have to work for their lunch, and in front of their peers no less, would be just another nail in the coffin.

[LizzyBee]

Actually, working in lunch rooms doesn't seem to be an issue with most people posting here.  I think what upset people was the idea that children whose parents have financial issues would be forced to work in the lunchroom to earn their food, but kids whose parents did not have financial difficulties would not have to work in the lunchroom.  The feeling with many was that if this were to be implemented, all kids should be allowed the possibility of working in the lunch room to earn extra pay or a free lunch or whatever so that it wouldn't become a class issue, or maybe some other more equitable plan should be put in place to help kids get lunches.  In other words, it seems wrong to single out and apparently punish kids for the financial state of their parents.  There were several suggestions for how helping out around the school could be a good thing, just open it up as an option to all students, not make it a mandatory punishment for being poor.

 

...probably not wording this very well.   Sorry.

 

My husband was reading a news article about the proposal, and he said the proposal was for kids of all economic strata to have the opportunity to work in the cafeteria so they could all learn that there is no free lunch.  The proposal was not just for poor kids.  He read it to me word for word, but I'm too tired now to google and find it.