When do kids learn to squint??

[PeterPan]

My ds has verbal apraxia, which is a motor control problem with his speech.  He also has difficulty making facial expressions.  He's working on squinting his eyes, and when he does it it's sort of incomplete and funny.  Is that normal for 5 yos?

[Alte Veste Academy]

My kids were all early squinters. I believe that trait was passed down, positively linked with with the sarcasm/sass gene.

[Kathryn]

Squint with one eye? I don't understand. I've never had a reason to do that. I just tried and it's kinda hard.

[Megbo]

Squint with one eye? I don't understand. I've never had a reason to do that. I just tried and it's kinda hard.

That's what I was wondering. Ds5 can wink one eye at a time, but I don't know if I've ever seen him squint with one eye. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Squint with one eye? I don't understand. I've never had a reason to do that. I just tried and it's kinda hard.

You do it in defiance (maintained for the entirety of showdowns), malevolent brainstorming, sizing up opponents, etc.

 

;)

[Alte Veste Academy]

Y'all are obviously all too nice and well-adjusted. LOL

[Alte Veste Academy]

The key is to simultaneously raise the eyebrow of the other eye. :leaving:

[swellmomma]

I am confused, do you mean winking with 1 eye? or do you mean squinting both eyes like when you are trying to read the fine print?  Winking all my kids could do it by 3-5.  They started trying at about 18 months or so.  We do a really exaggerated one for little kids when we are playing around and they just start trying to copy it.  I use winking here like others might give a thumbs up to a kid or a nudge to a teen etc.  ds10 took the longest to learn it do to weakness in his facial muscles but he pretty much had it by 5.  Then came the learning how to alternate between the eyes, winking one and then the other, that can get challenging and I don't think dd6 quite has it though all the other 3 do.

[PeterPan]

Oh yes, wink would be the right word!  That's what he's TRYING to do, but what it LOOKS like on him is squinting.  So you're saying at age 3-5 most children are able to shut one eye tightly and completely?  Wow.  One of those weird things I didn't think to notice when dd was little, because stuff like that just happened.

[MistyMountain]

I can't wink with just one eye and I am not sure if my kids can. This is a problem?

[Joker]

One of my dds cannot wink. No one has ever said it was a problem and I don't think it is. I've known some who were never able to.

[swellmomma]

Oh yes, wink would be the right word!  That's what he's TRYING to do, but what it LOOKS like on him is squinting.  So you're saying at age 3-5 most children are able to shut one eye tightly and completely?  Wow.  One of those weird things I didn't think to notice when dd was little, because stuff like that just happened.

 

I don't know if most kids can just that all 4 of mine could.  I remember when they were learning because it was so darned cute.  I would do a really exaggerated one and they would try to copy and I would laugh and laugh as they did the squint thing but one day they each just got it. 

[Megbo]

You made me curious, so I just conducted a little experiment. 

 

Ds5 (nearly 6) can wink with either eye, but Ds3 (4 next month) can just barely wink with his right eye (the left is squinty), and can't wink with his left at all. 

[sbgrace]

 If you google/research, you'll see that there are perfectly capable/typical adults who can't wink one eye! I have an adult relative who can't wink and doesn't have motor issues. 

[Desert Strawberry]

My 4yo can. I think all of mine can. I am pretty sure we used it in testing the 2 with learning problems. I don't recall if my 11yr old was able to or when. He has some mild dyspraxia.

As others have mentioned, it doesn't mean anything by itself, but combined with other signs, can be an indicator of a problem.

Eta: my 2 yo can't do one eye yet. My 11yo can.

[boscopup]

My 4.5 year old can do it. My 7 year old *just* started being able to do it fairly recently (he also had speech problems, but don't know that that's related! :D).

 

I have no idea when my oldest was able to.

[PeterPan]

Yes, in his case, I take it to be motor control.  I mean 1" south he has poor motor control, so it's not rocket science to think that's what's going on.  It's tricky when you start looking at adults, because they could have remnants of motor control problems or other issues they didn't realize.  But I get the point.  It's not something I'm stressed over, but it did surprise me.  It's one of those things that will come up as we pursue evals (OT, psych, etc.).  Just taking it one step at a time and noting things.  

[MistyMountain]

Just checked all my kids and none of my 3 kids who are 3, 5 and 7 can wink. Like I mentioned I am an adult who cannot wink. What problem can it be an indicator with other signs?

[PeterPan]

Just checked all my kids and none of my 3 kids who are 3, 5 and 7 can wink. Like I mentioned I am an adult who cannot wink. What problem can it be an indicator with other signs?

I have no clue.  My ds has verbal apraxia, which is a motor control problem with his speech.  No developmental delay and all the thoughts there, just the challenge of doing the motor control to get them out.  Facial expressions are a challenge for him, but so far I had only noticed it with his mouth and nose.  Now he's trying to wink (shut one eye at a time) at it looks like he doesn't have total control, which made me wonder.  I have no clue about for other people, none at all.

[Kathryn]

Ah, winking! My 8yo could at 5 and still can wink with one eye but not the other (forgot which one). I'm not sure about my 4yo.

[PeterPan]

Ah, winking! My 8yo could at 5 and still can wink with one eye but not the other (forgot which one). I'm not sure about my 4yo.

And that's a dc with spectrum?  See, that's what I'm thinking, that it's some of his praxis.  And yes, I checked this morning, he can get one eye (with difficulty, looks contorted) and the other not at all.  Weird.  And you know there are things I'm not sure we're going to be able to fix.  Does your dc use his mouth for facial expressions?  See my ds uses his eyes more than his mouth.  I've been trying to work on it.  The SLP focuses on speech, but I'd like him to be able to do a pouty lip and other things people take for granted for facial expressions.  The other weird thing is that I don't think of him, overall, as evidencing praxis/dyspraxia.  He can imitate something you do with your hands, which my dd can't (a symptom of praxis).  

[Desert Strawberry]

And that's a dc with spectrum?  See, that's what I'm thinking, that it's some of his praxis.  And yes, I checked this morning, he can get one eye (with difficulty, looks contorted) and the other not at all.  Weird.  And you know there are things I'm not sure we're going to be able to fix.  Does your dc use his mouth for facial expressions?  See my ds uses his eyes more than his mouth.  I've been trying to work on it.  The SLP focuses on speech, but I'd like him to be able to do a pouty lip and other things people take for granted for facial expressions.  The other weird thing is that I don't think of him, overall, as evidencing praxis/dyspraxia.  He can imitate something you do with your hands, which my dd can't (a symptom of praxis).  

My oldest had dyspraxia with no facial expressions. He was hyperverbal, so we never did any speech work with him. He had an informal diagnosis of mild sensory processing disorder. I did behavioral and sensory therapies with him. He is now fully functional, with some mild dysgraphia. He still needs a little coaching with social cues, but overall the changes are phenomenal. When we occasionally run into people who knew him before therapies, they tell me they can't believe he's the same kid. Very few people know he's on the spectrum at all.

Just a little encouragement. I spent many tears worrying over this child. There is hope. Hold onto it. 

He can wink both eyes, smile and laugh. I thought I would never hear him laugh, but he does, often. You may well see your child pout one day. :)

[swellmomma]

And that's a dc with spectrum?  See, that's what I'm thinking, that it's some of his praxis.  And yes, I checked this morning, he can get one eye (with difficulty, looks contorted) and the other not at all.  Weird.  And you know there are things I'm not sure we're going to be able to fix.  Does your dc use his mouth for facial expressions?  See my ds uses his eyes more than his mouth.  I've been trying to work on it.  The SLP focuses on speech, but I'd like him to be able to do a pouty lip and other things people take for granted for facial expressions.  The other weird thing is that I don't think of him, overall, as evidencing praxis/dyspraxia.  He can imitate something you do with your hands, which my dd can't (a symptom of praxis).  

 

ds10 could not stick out his tongue, do a pouty lip, etc when we first started with SLP.  That was part of what we did at home with him, copying faces in the mirror(so he could see if he actually matched or not), pushing away tongue depressors with his tongue, making "scary" faces.  I bought speechercise vol 1 and 2 to use with him.  It took a long time (years) for him to have enough muscle strength in his mouth/tongue to do all of those freely.  Now we did strengthening exercises for his eyes to help thm work together etc.

[PeterPan]

ds10 could not stick out his tongue, do a pouty lip, etc when we first started with SLP.  That was part of what we did at home with him, copying faces in the mirror(so he could see if he actually matched or not), pushing away tongue depressors with his tongue, making "scary" faces.  I bought speechercise vol 1 and 2 to use with him.  It took a long time (years) for him to have enough muscle strength in his mouth/tongue to do all of those freely.  Now we did strengthening exercises for his eyes to help thm work together etc.

Thanks, then I'll talk with the SLP about it!  It's just in the last bit it has been on my mind.  He's been getting ST since he was 2, and because the stuff inside his mouth was so serious (like we actually spent 6 months picking up his jaw, then time helping him round, etc. etc.), the facial expressions sort of weren't on our minds.  Now his speech is much better and I'm noticing things.  He can't do a bunny nose, etc. etc.  I've been working with him on my own a bit, but I hadn't even thought about the mirror thing, that would work great!  

 

So yes, I'll bop her an email to get some info on how to work on it.  Thanks for the prod.   :)

 

I'll check out Speechercize.  I've heard of it before, but he wouldn't have been able to do it.  He might be able to now, so I'll look at it and see.  I have some other apraxia-specific music as well that he's just now able to start using, as it's only in the last few months he has started singing.  So it's all coming, like Strawberry says, and I just need to think long-term.

[mom2bee]

My mom can't wink, my dad can. Both are well past elementary school aged...

[EKS]

If you mean wink well with one eye (as opposed to scrunching up the entire side of the face in an effort to get the eye closed), then I vote for somewhere beyond 46yo.

[Pawz4me]

My youngest had verbal apraxia and some sensory issues.  I can't remember when he learned to wink, but it did take practice.  In addition to speech therapy, he had about a year of OT to help with fine motor skills, learning to spit (yes, that was a huge issue), etc.  Now at 15 he's just fine, and is in an early college high school program.  His handwriting will never be great, and he still needs the occasional reminder to speak carefully.  But overall he's a very typical kid.  Good luck with your son!

[PeterPan]

My youngest had verbal apraxia and some sensory issues.  I can't remember when he learned to wink, but it did take practice.  In addition to speech therapy, he had about a year of OT to help with fine motor skills, learning to spit (yes, that was a huge issue), etc.  Now at 15 he's just fine, and is in an early college high school program.  His handwriting will never be great, and he still needs the occasional reminder to speak carefully.  But overall he's a very typical kid.  Good luck with your son!

Yup, that's what the ped wants us to do next, sigh.  Did OT with my dd, and it involves going to the big city, ugh. I'm working on finding an OT.  I did finally write the SLP this morning about the facial expressions, so we can discuss it at our next appt.  

 

Btw, did he have issues with learning to read?  Writing?

[Pawz4me]

Yup, that's what the ped wants us to do next, sigh.  Did OT with my dd, and it involves going to the big city, ugh. I'm working on finding an OT.  I did finally write the SLP this morning about the facial expressions, so we can discuss it at our next appt.  

 

Btw, did he have issues with learning to read?  Writing?

 

He was a *very* early reader, and pretty much taught himself.  I was flabbergasted one day on the way home from OT when he started reading street names to me (and they weren't easy street names like Oak or Main).  He was fluently reading chapter books long before he started kindergarten.

 

Handwriting was always a struggle, as was coloring, drawing, using scissors, gluing things, etc.  He still passionately hates to do anything creative/artistic because it's not easy for him.  In addition to the fine motor issues, I think it's related to spatial ability.  He simply can't envision how a project should look on a page or board, where things should be placed.  Thankfully, at his age none of those things are very big hindrances, although I feel sure his teachers are very happy that most of his work is done on the computer, so they don't have to decipher his handwriting too much.

 

But despite struggling with the fine motor/spatial issues, he learned to snap his fingers at a relatively early age, something that his brother (who has never had any issues) still can't do.  And he played baseball from t-ball until he aged out of our Pony League a few months ago, and was almost always a top player on each team he belonged to.  No problem at all with gross motor skills or hand/eye coordination.

[PeterPan]

He was a *very* early reader, and pretty much taught himself.  I was flabbergasted one day on the way home from OT when he started reading street names to me (and they weren't easy street names like Oak or Main).  He was fluently reading chapter books long before he started kindergarten.

 

Handwriting was always a struggle, as was coloring, drawing, using scissors, gluing things, etc.  He still passionately hates to do anything creative/artistic because it's not easy for him.  In addition to the fine motor issues, I think it's related to spatial ability.  He simply can't envision how a project should look on a page or board, where things should be placed.  Thankfully, at his age none of those things are very big hindrances, although I feel sure his teachers are very happy that most of his work is done on the computer, so they don't have to decipher his handwriting too much.

 

But despite struggling with the fine motor/spatial issues, he learned to snap his fingers at a relatively early age, something that his brother (who has never had any issues) still can't do.  And he played baseball from t-ball until he aged out of our Pony League a few months ago, and was almost always a top player on each team he belonged to.  No problem at all with gross motor skills or hand/eye coordination.

Fascinating!  Thanks for sharing that!   :)

[MistyMountain]

Hmm interesting. I pretty sure I have sensory issues and something similar to disgraphia. My oldest didn't have any speech issues and is a good reader but she struggles with handwriting and drawing and she also seems to have sensory issues. My son was in speech therapy as a toddler and when he was older for articulation. He is 5 and is struggling even more then my oldest with handwriting and drawing. I have no clue if this all would relate to winking but it is interesting.

[swellmomma]

Yup, that's what the ped wants us to do next, sigh.  Did OT with my dd, and it involves going to the big city, ugh. I'm working on finding an OT.  I did finally write the SLP this morning about the facial expressions, so we can discuss it at our next appt.  

 

Btw, did he have issues with learning to read?  Writing?

 

I know you were asking pawz, but I am jumping in here again :)  My ds has remained consistently 2 years behind in reading and even further in writing.  The SLP said his speech is now normal, but the delays caused him to be delayed in phonological awareness. He is progressing but now as a 10 yr odl enrolled in 4th grade he is in a 2nd grade curriculum due to his issues with reading and I still have to transcribe for him more often than not due to his writing but that is improving.  It is unfortunate because he is a smart boy, great imagination, dedicated to doing well in school but simply can't kwim.  We are starting to hit a point when my dd6 enrolled in 1st grade is starting to catch up to his abilities and will pass him by the end of the year I am sure, and unfortunately he is smart enough to see this and is not happy about it at all.

[PeterPan]

Wow Brandy, thanks for explaining that.  And yes, I asked because I am concerned about my boy.  He's clearly very bright (like we're memorizing the Christmas story, and when it mentions Syria he knows about it), but when you tell him to read the time on the digital clock he says 5 or is it 2 dot dot 3, 4.  That's 5:34 and how he read it to me today off the stove.  Like for real, we've been doing letters and numbers this long, since he was 2, and this is what I get??  From the kid who knows about Syria??

 

I've got LIPS to start with him in January.  I'm just starting to go through it.  

 

I guess one of the tricky things for me to know is what might come with time (I'm calling him K4 this year because of his fall b-day) and what is due to not aggressive enough remediation or foundational work, if that makes sense.  Like you say, you can't go back and get those years back if you don't do xyz.  

 

Oh, and his eyes are fine.  I have him checked every year by the developmental optometrist.  That could change, but as of his last appointment he was fine on the developmental vision stuff.  (Otherwise that's something I'd be asking.)

[Kathryn]

And that's a dc with spectrum? See, that's what I'm thinking, that it's some of his praxis. And yes, I checked this morning, he can get one eye (with difficulty, looks contorted) and the other not at all. Weird. And you know there are things I'm not sure we're going to be able to fix. Does your dc use his mouth for facial expressions? See my ds uses his eyes more than his mouth. I've been trying to work on it. The SLP focuses on speech, but I'd like him to be able to do a pouty lip and other things people take for granted for facial expressions. The other weird thing is that I don't think of him, overall, as evidencing praxis/dyspraxia. He can imitate something you do with your hands, which my dd can't (a symptom of praxis).

Sorry, I just saw this. Yes, that's my ASD son. I just checked with both of them. My 8yo can wink his right eye only and my 4yo can wink his left eye only. But, in general, my 8yo's facial expressions are highly exaggerated and unusual and often do involve his eyes more than most people.