Kinesthetic learners

[PeterPan]

Ok, I just wanna talk here.  I took ds5 to ST yesterday (PROMPT, for his verbal apraxia) and had a chat with the SLP about his behavior, school stuff, interpreting what we're seeing.  I'm calling him K4 this year because of his birthday.  We've been stretching out his ST appointments, because he is technically age-appropriate.  When I told her that he has been very hyper/energized around the house and says he's bored, she said to do school work with him.  I told her that I had done K5-type work with him last year but that it seemed really weird to be doing 1st gr work in K4, and she looked at me funny and told me to do it anyway.  She says that even though we've done so much ST his language still isn't matching what's going on inside!  

 

So then as I watched her work with him, I realized these horrible presuppositions and assumptions to my teaching methods.  Take math.  Everything we do that we laud ourselves about as being so great and conceptual (RightStart, blah blah) is all VERBAL!  I've been talking with him about math (always good, right?), discussing quantities like one-ten and two-ten would make three ten, and I keep complaining there's no click and that he therefore is way behind where dd was, isn't as smart, is developmentally delayed, blah blah.  What she's essentially saying is that his whole language processing, anything he has to processing THROUGH LANGUAGE is going to be very glitchy (delayed, crunchy, affected by the apraxia) and that basically I need to teach him kinesthetically, by DOING.

 

This is so foreign to me and I'm just slapping myself here, because I SHOULD have understood.  Like she did the testing a year ago and TOLD me he was a kinesthetic learner!  I just thought it meant add on movement while you talk.  It totally didn't click in my mind that he was going to learn what he DID and not so much what he heard or was talked with about.  

 

So I don't know if I'm an idiot for missing it or overwhelmed because I don't really know how to teach that way or what...  So on the way home I thought ok, just use the cuisinaire rods along with RightStart.  I got cuisinaire rods, which I never needed with dd.  Or order MUS.  This is really stupid and a hang-up, but I've always thought of RS as superior conceptually to many other programs.  But the problem is, RS is totally language-driven.  The only way you use the abacus is with words.  I think there needs to be more doing, shoving around, pushing, touching.  And that got me to thinking about what other preconceptions I have about how things ought to be taught.  

 

So what do you think?  Do you have a very kinesthetic learner and what has been good with them?  I'm trying to open my mind here a bit.  There's math, learning to read, history...  Any particular programs that were good for being done physically?  And am I getting lazy, tired, or just plain old?  It seems so much harder to teach a 5 yo at 37 than it was at 27...   :willy_nilly: 

 

Oh, he does not read yet.  Minimal/inconsistent rhyming, no ability to identify initial or final sounds, nothing.  He knows the sounds of the phonograms and those somewhat inconsistently.  We continue to work on them.  He at least recognizes them when we go through them if he has some prompting.  So when I say we did K5 stuff, I mean we did that unit study, letter of the week style thing.  We skipped all the learning to read.  I know I've got an issue with reading.  She's saying he needs to be challenged by 1st or 2nd (or higher) grade CONTENT and THOUGHT processes to keep him engaged and that the reading and requirement to use language to process and interact has to be backed off.  He's quite talkative and his articulation is normal, but he's not ready to learn math via a lot of language.  He needs to DO the math, DO the science, etc.  And if I could figure out a smarter way to DO the phonics with him, maybe that would click too?  Sigh, I've got SWR and have been going through phonograms with him.  We work on ungluing words, and sometimes I think I'm' getting a click, sometimes not.  I posted in another thread about whether we're babying him or whether he's delayed, and basically she's saying that his language isn't reflecting all that's inside.  Ugh.  

[PeterPan]

I think he would like more science.  Options:

 

-TOPS--Lots of doing.  I don't have the lower books, but I could get some.  Some initial set-up, but then could even be independent if he catches on.

-Van Cleave books--I have a bunch, again lots of doing, but requires set-up on mom's part.  Refer back to aging body and brain and wonder if they'll get done or merely aspired to.

-Curriculum/kit--Maybe the Nancy Larson science?  He LOVED the Saxon K5 math written by her, so she seems to have the right demeanor for him.  Not distinctly christian, but open and go I assume.  

 

Some combo of those?  

 

I also have the Winter Promise Animals stuff from long ago.  I don't know if he'd get into that or get bored quickly.  Maybe that's more like a reading study?  You're right, it's not a lot of DOING.  I think it would be fine and fun, but if we want to step up and DO then the WP would be more of a reading pile thing.  Or maybe I need to look at it and see?  I just found WP to be unrealistic and unmagical, like somebody just slopped a lot of things on paper without any charm or respect to flow or joy.  I bought several guides and could never really stick with them over the long-haul.  They just never felt right, like they had been used and infused with joy.  They were more like tedious paper-pushing.  (color this, paste that)

 

Oh, he's insanely good with his fingers.  He's used dd's Snap Circuits some, but she hates sharing.  Maybe I should get him his own set?  I'd have to think about that.  I don't want things ruined by giving them to him too young, but seriously he has the fingers for that and is a doer.  Oh, I remember!  Someone here said to get him things to take apart!!!!  I totally forgot!!!!!!!!  

[PeterPan]

History.  I've been reading aloud to him the Rainbow book of American History (Daugherty) and he'll sit for that and enjoys it.  I haven't been making it come alive with activities, and we haven't really been doing MORE than that.  I haven't done anything with him yet on the theme of Thanksgiving.  No crafts, no read alouds, nothing.  I could step up the ball there.  Refer back to 37 and crazy.

 

I have Konos btw, like all three volumes.  I picked them up a few years ago, thinking they might be good for him.  I guess I could bust them out now.  Ever get a mound and get overwhelmed?  No, I don't think it's the mound.  It's the walls we're painting and things torn up and the holidays coming and all the things you'd LIKE to do and won't get done.  Somehow that list seems to grow each year!  Refer back to 37 and crazy.

 

Ok, so I'll go pull out Konos.  I've also had CHOW on my mind.  I think he would sit for that and gobble it right up right now.  He just gives you that indication that he'd take to it, kwim?  Then he might like the Famous Men books or Plutarch's Lives.  He'll listen to stories really way and really takes to stories, especially stories about MEN.  How that fits in with doing, I don't know, lol.  

 

Btw, he can't color and listen to a read-aloud at the same time.  I tried.  He's not a committed colorer anyway; he only does it and sticks with it if you do it with him.  If you read aloud, he just totally stops and can't do both.  Don't know that that means anything, but it's a curiosity.  My dd wouldn't even color, so the fact that he'll put crayon to paper at all is moving up to me.  I tell myself it's something we ought to keep working on (for the hand strength, for the fine motor), but it's not really something he's drawn to.  I think that's why our school time, that had been going so well, fell apart, because he got older and our time was still mazes, letter sounds, and coloring, mazes, letter sounds, and coloring.  Not exactly something to wake up for!  But it's crazy, because he's 5.  I'm calling him K4.  It SHOULD have been enough.

 

Enough of that whining.  Some people here are dealing with kids with challenges who aren't ever going to be advanced in something, so I feel bad even mentioning it.  It's just totally odd though to me.  He understands some things in a mature way (like this weekend when I discussed with him commands vs. statements vs. questions) but he can't tell you if things rhyme or what the end sound of a word is.  We played Guess Who (rated age 5+, has animals and things, not faces, for the pics), and his questions were very sophisticated ("Does your animal have partially closed eyes?").  But he can't tell you the end sound of a word, lol.  It's crazy.  I'll start that in the next installment.

[Heathermomster]

I'll speak to the math as I was wanting to share this with you anyways.

 

Pea and I have started building numbers using the 10 rods and the units. We have MUS blocks and c-rods. I don't really see the point in you purchasing rods right now because you can substitute the rods with pony beads (buttons, hot wheels, any tiny thing you can think of) and popsicle sticks...Whatever the case, I made a little mat and we used dice (and later a spinner from an old board game) to derive numbers for the tens and units values. She rolled (or flicked the spinner), I wrote down the numbers, and she built the numbers with the rods. It was fun. I stood back and let her go.

 

I think the RS (Slavonic) abacus is great, just too big right now for us. You and DS could build a Rekenrek with pony beads, card board, and pipe cleaner. The whole idea with the manipulatives is that you demonstrate quickly and then let the kids have a go. Sometimes, they need to just play with manipulatives and that's ok as an introduction. When you teach, show quickly and then let him do it.

 

How was that? Clear as mud?

[PeterPan]

Ok, so now for this phonics/reading thing.  We've done earobics, though we haven't finished.  It was trying to use working memory along with it, and he was wigging out.  The SLP said to do it but give more support and time.  While doing Earobics, he *started* to identify rhymes, but they're very crunchy and inconsistent.  Yesterday he told the SLP that match and match rhyme.  He starts to give different usages/definitions of the word, and she says no, same word, different meanings.  Sometimes he does that with homonyms too.  It's just totally glitchy.  Smart and verbal but glitchy at the same time.  Totally crazy.

 

I've got AAS, SWR, HTTS, shall we keep going.  I've got banangrams (jumbo and regular) and letter tiles.  None of this slows it down though and explains what you do systematically and thoroughly when you've got a kid who's 5 who's not even hearing basic stuff.  We could go back to Earobics, but there's some reluctance.  It was getting pretty hard.  I think (emphasis on think) he hears the sounds correctly now.  He can SAY all the sounds correctly (within reason and age-appropriateness).  He will now say all the sounds of O with you (4), which he wouldn't/couldn't do a year ago.  

 

SWR gives me NO tools for slowing things down and having open and go lessons.  AAS doesn't break down the phonemic awareness stuff, and her lessons for AAR pre were out of order developmentally.  The activities are great, love 'em (seriously LOVED them!), but it's not detailed enough for him.  It's not enough to have 4 or 8 words for the task and have them be old words or words he doesn't know or words he doesn't care about.  I need more tools, more detail, more steps, all in the proper developmental order.  I don't need to wait, but I don't know what I'm looking for.  I want the I've got a 5 yo who doesn't rhyme consistently (let alone do anything else of that vein consistently) and I want something I can open and go that walks me through all the steps.  Is that Barton?  Wilson?  Doesn't Barton have a pre-test, meaning he actually needs something else BEFORE Barton?

 

And see here's the kicker, what SandyKC was saying.  If I do all this and don't have evals first, basically we remediate and make the label disappear and he's left with the problems?  But if I wait till he's 8 and still can't read, then he gets the label?  Or can/should I do evals sooner?  What am I missing here?

 

Btw, my dd didn't read till almost 6, IN SPITE of tons of SWR work.  I really wanted to give him that window to continue to develop.  We went through all the SWR words from lists A-I2 *three times* before anything clicked.  So I know things can take longer and didn't want to push that.  On the other hand, there's no reason to wait if we're talking precursor skills that aren't going to come just by waiting.  But I don't know what I need.  I know I'm feeling that 37 and I'm tired and I have high school and everything else on the mind.  I'm plenty smart, but I'd like something that breaks down the steps and gives me more tools, something with small increments so he can have success and build.  SWR doesn't give me that.

[GoVanGogh]

I don't have time to post much this morning, but will re-visit.

 

Long before we knew our son's diagnosis - well, we pulled him out of preschool and started homeschooling because he has a strong need to move while learning. (Duh. Now we know that is the dystonic nature of his CP - he moves all the time.)

 

I think you have some good ideas going. I have always said, "We homeschool on the move!"

We move from spot to spot in the house. One seated activity, move to somewhere else, alternating seated work with something more active.

We school outside. (When younger, we would go to the park and pick up sticks, then sit down at a picnic table use the sticks for addition, learning how to make tally marks, etc.)

Lots of hands-on science.

DS hates anything crafty, so we don't do much supplemental for history but there are history kits and crafts galore.

Lots of field trips and nature studies.

Take advantage of every learning opportunity and try to tie it in to current school. (Once linked a chemistry lesson to making ice cream while visiting a heritage farm and watching them milk a cow.)

 

Will post more later.

And very interested to know what others do!

[PeterPan]

I'll speak to the math as I was wanting to share this with you anyways.  

 

Pea and I have started building numbers using the 10 rods and the units.  We have MUS blocks and c-rods.  I don't really see the point in you purchasing rods right now because you can substitute the rods with pony beads (buttons, hot wheels, any tiny thing you can think of) and popsicle sticks...Whatever the case, I made a little mat and we used a dice (and later a spinner from an old board game) to derive numbers for the tens and units values.  She rolled (or flicked the spinner), I wrote down the numbers, and she built the numbers with the rods.  It was fun.  I stood back and let her go.  

 

I think the RS (Slavonic) abacus is great, just too big right now for us.  You and DS could build a Rekenrek with pony beads, card board, and pipe cleaner.  The whole idea with the manipulatives is that you demonstrate quickly and then let the kids have a go.  Sometimes, they need to just play with manipulatives and that's ok as an introduction.  When you teach, show quickly and then let him do it.

 

How was that?  Clear as mud?

I've got your posts about math from another thread open too!  :D  

 

What you're saying makes sense.  Are you using the steps of the Ronit Bird books for that or expanding another curriculum or just doing your own thing based on what you see in her?

[PeterPan]

Oh, I already have the c-rods.  I got them a few months ago.  It's just if you have a pile of rods and no cards or instructions, you don't DO anything with them.  I'm sort of kicking myself that I didn't get the MUS stuff at the convention when I looked at it.  I knew he would love it and I just didn't.  I got RS A instead, new edition.  I used RS A with my dd years ago, so that's all there in my mind about quantities, etc.  You always have the fancy words, hehe.  We've done some of the games from there.  What dd would do is by fine in the game and then not have it for written work, etc.  With ds, he'll seem fine during the game and then later tell you 7 is 8.  Sigh.  Yes he's a kid, but I think he needs more DOING games, like what you're describing.  I have a book of dice games and hadn't thought to try them with him. Refer back to 37 yo brain.  I like the idea of the Ronit Bird books, something with steps: do this, then this, then this, this is how the concepts build.  

[PeterPan]

GVG, thanks for the tips!!  I'm totally kicking myself now, because I hadn't even thought about field trips!!  You just get so in-mode with high school, be here 4 hours a day, crack the books, keep the boy from haranguing the girl, that you sort of forget how to build that K5-ish experience.  Wowsers!  But you're right.  

 

That's an interesting point that history stuff tends to be crafty and that he may or may not like that.  So far he actually seems to enjoy crafts if we do them together.  I think it's because he has really good fine motor skills, much better than my dd ever did.  It's one of the benefits of apraxia, if there is such a thing.  The brain funnels energy that should be going to speech into fine motor, so they end up unusually good at some things.

 

You're definitely inspiring me!  :)

[Heathermomster]

I've got your posts about math from another thread open too!   :D

 

What you're saying makes sense.  Are you using the steps of the Ronit Bird books for that or expanding another curriculum or just doing your own thing based on what you see in her?

Well, P completed Essentials A last year and is working on Essentials B.  While ordering for DS last, I decided to order Primer too.

 

In Primer, there is a jump from adding triangles and counting to building larger numbers.  The Decimal Street concept was introduced as well.  I was irritated by the jump, so started winging.  She builds numbers fine now, but we will continue to practice.  

 

Over the past three years, I have read a handful of books about math.  Not nearly enough.  I know my child, so I modify whatever math program we are using to make it work.   Drawing upon past work with DS helps.  Pea is motivated by games, so whenever I can turn a concept into a game, she is all about.

 

Phonics...We were going over syllables in LOE, which was not so fun.  I dug out the pre-AAR and used their syllable lessons, which involved clapping her friend's names.  We clapped family names, pet names, and cartoon character names.  She eats that stuff up and now understands syllables.

[PeterPan]

Heather, I'm having a moment.  Essentials is MUS or RB?  Happily, syllables are one thing he can do, or at least it seems like he can.  He won't clap them, but he slows them down and says the syllables separately, lol.  I think it's the speech therapy.  We started on those a year ago.  I need to look at LOE and see how far back it goes in the K5.  I probably still have the tab open.  I was looking at middle sample lessons, so that didn't tell me that.

[wapiti]

On the math, I have a few random thoughts that may or may not be relevant, so I'll just throw them out there in case any of them might make sense - otherwise just ignore :).  FWIW, I think of kinesthetic as a subset of VSL (a la Silverman's perspective).  Anyway, one idea for taking the language out of it might be to try a Miquon approach, with the math being learned via discovery with the rods.  I have Miquon but I haven't actually used it, so I really don't know how much language is involved, but it seems to me that it would be less than RS because RS is rather scripted, right?  RS is supposed to be very conceptual so it seems like a good choice but for the language - is there a way to work around that, a way to tweak the presentation of RS?  Maybe try a sort of socratic approach?  (I'm trying to think of an example, but it might involve asking how we might use the manipulative to figure out a particular math problem?  but asked in a more broken-down way?)  For a VSL my intuition would lean toward Miquon rather than MUS, as my sense is that MUS may be more about steps than big picture, though I really don't know (don't you want to try them all? lol, that seems to be the only way to know for sure)

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[Tiramisu]

Miquon? Or is that too verbally dependent, too?

 

ETA: Wapiti's post came in while I tried to type mine. Great minds think alike. :)

[Heathermomster]

Heather, I'm having a moment. Essentials is MUS or RB? Happily, syllables are one thing he can do, or at least it seems like he can. He won't clap them, but he slows them down and says the syllables separately, lol. I think it's the speech therapy. We started on those a year ago. I need to look at LOE and see how far back it goes in the K5. I probably still have the tab open. I was looking at middle sample lessons, so that didn't tell me that.

Essentials is Singapore,

[PeterPan]

On the math, I have a few random thoughts that may or may not be relevant, so I'll just throw them out there in case any of them might make sense - otherwise just ignore :).  FWIW, I think of kinesthetic as a subset of VSL (a la Silverman's perspective).  My older boys have their share of relative language weaknesses but they learned math via Montessori works at school, so I don't really know how they did it.  Anyway, one idea for taking the language out of it might be to try a Miquon approach, with the math being learned via discovery with the rods.  I have Miquon but I haven't actually used it, so I really don't know how much language is involved, but it seems to me that it would be less than RS because RS is rather scripted, right?  RS is supposed to be very conceptual so it seems like a good choice but for the language - is there a way to work around that, a way to tweak the presentation of RS?  Maybe try a sort of socratic approach?  (I'm trying to think of an example, but it might involve asking how we might use the manipulative to figure out a particular math problem?)  For a VSL my intuition would lean toward Miquon rather than MUS, as my sense is that MUS may be more about steps than big picture, though I really don't know (don't you want to try them all? lol, that seems to be the only way to know for sure)

 

All I can say is that I still drive myself crazy trying to teach ds10 with words when that is almost never the right way to go with him.  This is still a constant struggle in our house, often leading to him putting his hands over his ears - he can't think while I'm talking and can't hear what I'm saying while he's trying to think.  When I talk, I literally erase all that work he was doing in his head.  Then he often gets hung up on some stupid way I said something and off we go to arguing... (he's using aops, which helps avoid the direct instruction, but it's not exactly a panacea)

That's not crazy at all!  That's exactly what I'm talking about.  I don't think he's actually going to be dyscalculic.  I think he just needs to do the math, really DO it, in an orderly fashion.  And yes, I think you're right that Miquon is the vein of what I want.  I've never used it, only glanced at it.  Maybe it's time to take the plunge?  I loved what I was seeing in the Ronit Bird stuff as far as steps, because to me it was like RS concepts with an expanded progression and more thorough use of the manips.  I don't know what Miquon is like conceptually.  I'm rambling, lol.  I'll go look at it.

 

I'll have to watch how he is with thinking while I talk.  He and I get on really well; he seems to be like me and that eliminates some of the inadvertent errors I made with dd.  I would need to think about his processing speed.  Like I said, he's a lot more like me.  I don't feel like I'm constantly doing the bite your tongue 5 times thing like I did with dd, and that was her most obvious indicator of processing speed issues.  I'm not sure what age-appropriate working memory is.  I don't think his is normal, because it seems crunchy when we work on it.  Ok, add that to the list of things to work on, lol.  

 

And yes, I would absolutely agree on the VSL thing and I make the assumption he'll get labels later.  The ped told me to teach with the assumption that some things are going to be glitchy (reading, etc.).  (He put it more politely, that apraxia is associated with reading disorders.)  To me though this was a lightning bolt, to try to process through doing rather than processing through language so much and see what that unlocks.  

[PeterPan]

Oh, wapiti (or Heather, or both) how would Beast Academy be for this?  You mentioned AOPS.  I saw BA in passing at a RR booth, and it seemed like Singapore on steroids.  I have no clue beyond that.  I figured it would be something he could process visually rather than with langauge, which ought to work...  Not that I wouldn't do manips, mercy.  Any time we do stuff it's like a fury of short segments and what he's interested in, so having a couple things we can bam bam is good.  He likes workbooks, at least the Kumon maze workbooks I've gotten for him.  

 

Ok, now I sound really dumb.  I went and looked it up on RR, and they only show gr 3 and 4!  I thought I had seen something lower or that it went down to 1, oops.

[wapiti]

Along the lines of Miquon (which ought to be very, very conceptual) don't forget about Rosie's videos at http://www.educationunboxed.com/

 

Eta, I have a couple of misgivings about BA (1) that there's excessive color in the text itself, which I find visually nauseating, and (2) the story format may or may not work - it's possible it could be too much reliance on language but it depends on what your ds is ready for when the time comes - that's a ways off.  The workbook, however, I don't think I'd have an issue with.

 

Someone around here used BA with their VSL.  Like anything else, it may not be perfect, though it may be a lot of fun.  It's hard though.

[PeterPan]

Along the lines of Miquon (which ought to be very, very conceptual) don't forget about Rosie's videos at http://www.educationunboxed.com/

You've used them yourself or just found them interesting?  I'm always concerned about the idea that someone could memorize colors and not really translate that into math.  The RB stuff seems very careful about making sure kids make the transference over.  

 

I don't know, I just remember watching one of her videos and thinking they weren't carefully done, whatever it was.  But that was a couple years ago (and I'm stupid picky/perfectionist).  Or maybe I'm just insanely intense and need to lighten up.  ;)

[wapiti]

AFAIK, the videos were just meant for the mom to watch for an idea of how to present stuff, not for the kids to watch, so not the same as a video-driven program.  In your shoes, I'd probably try Miquon and then reserve the videos for situations where extra help is needed.

 

For the moment, I'd set the rods out for playing.  Make lots of stairs and trains.  The quantities become pretty apparent from the stairs and understanding the quantity (from both visual and touch) rather than the name of the number is of primary importance initially.  That said, my ds5 plays with them and knows which colors are which numbers (I forget them myself, LOL, but he knows).

[PeterPan]

Ahh, gotcha!  :)

[LaughingCat]

What about the LIPS program for reading?   It is very kinesthetic, using lip and tongue positioning to learn the various phonemes.     I believe it has research showing good results for kids with apraxia as well.

 

 

[PeterPan]

What about the LIPS program for reading?   It is very kinesthetic, using lip and tongue positioning to learn the various phonemes.     I believe it has research showing good results for kids with apraxia as well.

Oh my lands, total lightbulb moment.  So I go over to look at LIPS, which I've looked at in the past just in general, and suddenly I see all those TILES.  They use colored tiles and letter tiles.  I was doing it again, doing stuff exclusively with language that could have been done with tiles!!!!   :svengo:   THUNK.  I have the tiles and know the technique.  It just wasn't connecting in my pea brain.  It's like they were in separate sections in my brain, the place that knows how to analyze words and sounds using letter or colored tiles and the part of the brain that analyzes words with the SWR-style finger-spelling.  Yes, I can be an idiot, sigh.  Idiot or just have a really parceled brain?  I don't know.

 

Thanks immensely.  You're right, that's what I need to do, and I don't even need a program to do it.  I just needed to connect the right methodology.  And, duh, I'll bet that's why AAS works so well for some people, because it forces them to do that, double duh.  (I just always viewed it as this annoying inconvenience.)  Oh yeah I'm slow.  It's just this heavy bias toward doing everything through spoken language.  And you don't want to NOT use language, because you want him to develop.  However when you sit there and do everything with language and not with any doing, that's not getting the clicks.  I get it now, thanks.  Seriously.   :thumbup:

 

(But remind me again when I forget!)  

[Heathermomster]

Never looked at BA, so have no opinion.

 

Pea knows the colors of the c-rods. She picked that up quickly. MUS rods are colored differently, but she works with them fine. I prefer c-rods.

 

I ordered Miquon and returned all of the books. I just couldn't get into it. At the time, I was processing IEW and teaching DS to write. I had no time to take on one more product. I'm sure that Miquon is great through.

 

OhE, I just ordered Bede's History of Me for DD. I don't go all crazy on history or science. We've hit a number of museums with both of the kids. She enjoys the EM Nursery Rhymes activities and read alouds. My focus is phonics, math, and handwriting.

 

This is really too early to say right now, but I like the Memoria Press materials with modifications. I started looking at STOW Ancients for an audio component and am not sure I want to take that route with P. I expect science and history of the future to be hands on activities coupled with living books and lap books. Again, it's just too early to tell.

[PeterPan]

 

Eta, I have a couple of misgivings about BA (1) that there's excessive color in the text itself, which I find visually nauseating, and (2) the story format may or may not work - it's possible it could be too much reliance on language but it depends on what your ds is ready for when the time comes - that's a ways off.  The workbook, however, I don't think I'd have an issue with.

 

Someone around here used BA with their VSL.  Like anything else, it may not be perfect, though it may be a lot of fun.  It's hard though.

Hey Wapiti, I looked at this some more.  The thought process is great and right on/do-able for bright kids, but it would require a lot of processing.  That would have been more effort than it was worth for someone like dd.  I'll have to watch ds and see what happens.  Right now I can wear him out if I put him in the single line swing with a weighted collar and then ask him to list all the animals he knows, his favorite colors, etc.  Word retrieval, lexical stuff, this is all working him very hard.  Vestibular alone wouldn't get that response.  I don't know what his processing speed is going to be.  There isn't much of a chance of it being typical.  We'll see, but I'm not holding my breath.  

[LaughingCat]

LIPs isn't about using tiles (although it does move to that in the later stages) - it's about lip and tongue movement being linked to the phonemes.  

 

Here's someone's blog post trying to explain -  

"For example, /p/ and /b/ are called “brother sounds†because the mechanics of making the two sounds are the same; you pop your lips (hence the reason they are called “lip poppersâ€) and release a short burst of air.  The only difference between the two sounds is that the /p/ is unvoiced and the /b/ is voiced.  (Feel your throat while you say each sound and you will feel it.)  So, if a student tries to read a word and substitutes a “d†for a “bâ€, the teacher can ask the student to feel what his or her mouth is doing for that sound."

 

[PeterPan]

LIPs isn't about using tiles (although it does move to that in the later stages) - it's about lip and tongue movement being linked to the phonemes.  

 

Here's someone's blog post trying to explain -  

Thanks LC, that is interesting!  So she's saying to let him using his FEELING in his mouth to feel the letters of the word for what he can't HEAR.  Hadn't thought of it that way!  I'll definitely look into it more.

[OneStepAtATime]

I know you are seeking info on LiPS on another post, but others may not be following over there so I wanted to make a couple of comments here.  I will say that if you do the Barton screening and he cannot pass section C, then LiPS might really be helpful.  Since you already have AAR and AAS, those might actually still work if you did LiPS first.  As LaughingCat mentioned, LiPS isn't about tiles.  It starts with lip and tongue movement, things that should be automatic but for many kids are not.   Turns out that is the part my son needed only we didn't know it.  I didn't continue LiPS all the way through with my son since we switched my son to Barton as soon as he passed the part he needed to get through the student screening for Barton, but you might continue with LiPS all the way through.  If that doesn't appeal, and you know anyone in your area willing to lend you Level 1 and 2 of Barton, you might consider just doing those two Barton levels after LiPS then switching to AAS/AAR since you have those already.  

 

Level 1 and 2 are so basic for Barton, but really, really helped the kids to finally connect the dots in so many ways.  It is just like when everyone here at the HIve recommended to me that I go back and work on subitization skills with the kids by using the Ronit Bird books and then I found Dynamo Math to use also, everything FINALLY started clicking, even though this stuff just seems so basic.  Sometimes, I guess we just don't start explicit instruction at a basic enough level for some kids.  We just assume some stuff will be picked up with experience, and then when it doesn't, we also don't think to go back far enough when they struggle.  I know I didn't and feel really stupid we wasted so much time.

[mommymonster]

OhElizabeth, I actually was going to post today about being tired/weary and having multiple kids with multiple diagnosed and undiagnosed issues and just running. in. circles. constantly. I’m 40, so I have a few years on you, but my kids are younger. It seems like a trade-off. In any case, I’m not sure if it is age, bandwidth, or just the insanity taking over. I feel for you.

 

One thing (other than age and insanity) that I struggle with is that I have a learning style that is different than my DC and it is just *hard* to understand how the DC will learn if they are kinesthetic/auditory. I’m a product of a traditional public school education, and I’m not sure we ever did any kinesthetic learning. It is a challenge to switch gears so profoundly.

 

I had a few thoughts, which may or may not be of use:

 

For math, I’m using Miquon with my youngest. I find it confusing and annoying. That being said, DS4 is doing amazing with it. I can almost do lessons without talking, just using manipulatives (mostly c-rods, Base-10 blocks, and sandwiches for the fractions). We are working on the Orange book, so we aren’t that far in. For counting/adding, we use the Sum Swamp game. Initially, I switch out the numbered dice and use the dice with dots on it (for subitizing). Also, dominoes get a fair bit of use.  We also do Lego math, which I don’t think is particularly amazing, but DS4 totally loves it. We also use Legos to support following directions, working in an orderly fashion, and fine motor skills. We also use puzzles with maps, the alphabet, numbers, the solar system and historical figures to support whatever else we are learning, just coming at it from a different direction.

 

For science, we use TOPS lentil science (primary). It is a pain in the you-know-what to set it up, but if you buy the support kit, it is manageable to get started. I do find myself helping both DS4 and DS8 with the task cards, so it may not be a great fit.  Even taking all the caveats aside, my sons LOVE doing the task cards and are learning quite a bit. Also, for science, we find that science kits and projects work well for us. We are doing earth science this year and have grown so very many crystals. And identified rocks. And panned for gold (tangentially science, I know). We are also loving project books (for example, Robotics Build it Yourself by Kathy Ceceri and the Leonardo da Vinci Build it Yourself book) and then use the Snap Circuits to illustrate what we are doing with the robotics books. We just have the Snap Circuits Junior set, so it is not too overwhelming.

 

For history, we do as much living history as possible, particularly in the summer. There are groups that put on tons of battle reenactments, which we use as springboards for US history. World history has been more of a challenge, but they do better with living books that have lots of pictures. We do a lot of projects – the SOTW book has been useful for that. I also use those review cards in the back of the activity book and have the boys cut them out, color them, and then tape them to our large map of the world (posted on the wall). We put a string from the review card to the place the card references. DS8 has been begging my husband and I to join SCA, but I’m not sure we are ready for that.

 

All the best,

Mel

[Lecka]

I think they use a lot, lot more manipulatives at my son's school than the program requires, but my son is doing very well with Math in Focus at school.  Very, very well.  

 

It is very visual.  They bill it in our district as brining up the scores of students learning English as a Second Language.  It is not supposed to hold back kids who have a delay in English.  

 

They do a lot with manipulatives, playing games where they keep tallies, sequencing, in Kindergarten.  I think the manipulatives are what really help him.  But the worksheets I see him with use very little language, too.  They have examples with some blanks and lead you through filling in the blanks, instead of giving a written explanation, to some extent.  

 

For history stuff, going through non-fiction books with him helps him SO much.  Vocabulary words take a long time to come to him (this is a lot better this year, he is 8).  But he knows all kinds of things from the Usborne History book we have.  He does great with drawings like that. DK is still too hard for him, but I look in the library for books in that style.  He ALWAYS does better to have a non-fiction introduction to a topic, NOT a narrative introduction.  He needs the non-fiction first, or the narrative will not make sense to him, like he cannot fill in the blanks, he needs to see the stuff.  That is the most helpful recommendation from Dyslexic Advantage (at this point in time) and has helped so much.  

 

At school he does FOSS units for science and that seems to be good for him.  It seems like it is pretty hands-on.

 

Geography is extremely difficult for him because he can't keep track of the names and the way it is taught at school goes totally over his head.  It is way too oral, and his handwriting is way too bad, and he cannot copy maps for anything.  What they are doing does not work for him.

 

I am only supplementing school, though, and mainly just doing reading and pre-teaching with him.  

 

[PeterPan]

OneStep, thanks for clarifying the overlap in the Barton, LIPS, and AAS stuff!  That's something I had wondered about.  If you get the full LIPS kit, you get these 8 readers and a tm to implement them.  I think it's basically her way of teaching basic reading, or maybe it's just continuing into the segmenting and stuff?  Or maybe the segmenting and phonemic awareness was all in the main tm and the readers set is really just that, readers?  Yes, I can get that confused, lol.  

 

So then, if the readers set with the LIPS kit is for reading after their phonemic awareness is straight then, as you say, you could jump directly into Barton or AAS or what have you.  Barton will be the one that kills my dh and keels him over, belly up, like a dog.   :svengo:   $450 is a drop in the bucket compared to Barton.  I take solace in only one thing (besides grace and that my children so far love G*d) and that is that my dd reads.  Like no matter what I screw up on and do ill for the next 4 years, the fact is she READS.  And reads and reads.  So whatever it takes, we do.  At some point I'll have to broach whether I need Barton.  For now let's just get to where he's segmenting reliably.  

 

 I just want to say though that this can't be happening.  That's all.   :svengo:

 

 Uh oh, that's two characters dead in one post.  That's a bad sign.   :w00t:  Really, I'm not worried.  We'll just plow forward!  More tools will be more better.  Thanks for all the info.  I really don't know how to sort out that issue of how far to go in LIPS.  He can say the sounds, but there's no ability to hear a final sound in a word.  Just NONE.  Since nothing else on him has been a timetable thing (SLP says he's NOT delayed), there's no reason to think this is improved by waiting either, which means I have to break down and do something.  

 

I'll keep you posted on what happens.  :)

[PeterPan]

Thanks Lecka!  You know I was thinking about doing some geography with him but doing it as a matter of doing.  That's interesting to hear how much he enjoys non-fiction.  My ds has so far, but I need to break out some more!  I'll add it to the list!  :)

[prairiewindmomma]

We have used both Miquon and MUS. One of my kids did much better with the MUS blocks over c-rods because he could feel the blocks synching onto each other when building models.

 

Ronit Bird is against physically building the problems and against having individual units marked on the blocks, but I think you just have to go with what works. I have pulled a lot of her ideas together with some singapore stuff combined with a lot of games I pulled from pinterest. There are some great gross motor math activities on pinterest, including walking through division steps.

 

I totally get what you mean about suddenly UNDERSTANDING. You are a great momma who works so hard to help your kids. I am excited for you to come back and post what you discover works for both of you!

[PeterPan]

Thanks prairie!  That confirms it for me--I think I'm going to get some Ronit Bird stuff. And look on pinterest for math?  Had totally never thought of that.   :lol: 

 

Thanks y'all.  I'm realizing I've spent the last few months in a "wait and it will go away" mode.  It's good to move on into something that can work.  

[Heathermomster]

Here are some great c-rod videos.

 

I wanted to mention another product that doesn't get as much attention.  It's called Mathematics Made Meaningful and it put out by ETA Cuisenaire.  I used this with DS and then loaned it to a friend that math tutors.  It is possible to order the booklet and activity cards without the c-rods, but you'd need to call ETA Cuisenaire directly....NAYY

[OneStepAtATime]

 

 

At school he does FOSS units for science and that seems to be good for him.  It seems like it is pretty hands-on.

 

 

I hate to sound completely ignorant but what is FOSS?

 

And I have to run right now but I do have some other thoughts.  I need to get organized in my own head then respond later. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I have read through about ten dyscalculia books in the past several months. Ronit Bird has been the best, and even her own Overcoming Difficulties with Numbers refers repeatedly to her Dyscalculia Toolkit.

[Lecka]

My son is in public school. It is basically hands-on science things aligned with common core. They build little things and do little experiments.

 

I think it is just like homeschool science but it is a good one for public school I think.

 

For Lips, I have an impression that the "sounds" part is what was revolutionary when it came out. The later parts of it are a reading program not necessarily better or worse than any other solid OG reading program.

 

The sounds thing was the big innovation.

 

(I swear I read this somewhere, lol.)

[Lecka]

/serial

 

I am not using Barton. I own Level 1 and the videos were extremely helpful to me, but I adapted it. I do not do nonsense words with my son. He is able to, but he is not a memorizer, so I don't think it is necessary.

 

So I don't think you are obligated to think you will have to use Barton. He may not need it once he has his speech sounds and phonemic awareness.

 

It has gotten easier for my son since be got through them. He needs extra practice and direct instruction, but I went to Abecedarian.

 

I would not do it for someone who could fake through Abecedarian, but it was appropriate for my son. Barton is made so kids can't fake through it.

 

But anyway -- don't think so far ahead. Plus you can sell all your levels of Barton if you do use it.

 

My experience is that my son does not have this level of difficulty with every stage of reading, by any means. That was the hardest part. He still has more need for repetition and direct teaching, yes, but it is not bad. (He is not a dramatic success story where he totally catches up in a year, but he is a good success story -- he is reading at 3rd grade level, his oral fluency is right at grade level.). So basically -- don't expect the worst case of every stage being this hard. It really might not be!

[geodob]

OE, perhaps you could give some consideration to introducing him to Sign Language?

As Sign Language is a Kinesthetic Language, where the signs are felt.

For people that learn SL from birth, they think kinesthetically.

So that words are processed and concieved of physically. As a sequence of movements.

 

When you say that he has 'no ability to identify initial or final sounds'?

Perhaps you could consider this in terms of him learning to sign a word?  Where we have the initial and final movement, to sign a word.

Where I speculate that he would readily recognize the initial and final signs, and feel them as part of sequence.

Also be able to take a signed word, and deconstruct it into the signs that form the word. Which map onto letter and phoneme sounds.

 

I would also mention the Japanese approach to teaching math, which uses the Japanese abacus, called the Soroban.

Where children learn to think of numbers kinesthetically.

So that instead of thinking of a number as a symbol or word?  They think of a number as a finger pattern, that matches its formation on the soroban.

Where they develop a mental soroban.

So that mental math is done without using number words or symbols.  Only for recording the answer.

 

Though kinesthetic learning, really needs to appreciated as kinesthetic thinking, which can equally be used as a cognitive thinking process.

So that while you introduced the topic as kinesthetic learning, you might look at kinesthetic thinking?

 

 

[LaughingCat]

...

 

For Lips, I have an impression that the "sounds" part is what was revolutionary when it came out. The later parts of it are a reading program not necessarily better or worse than any other solid OG reading program.

 

The sounds thing was the big innovation.

 

(I swear I read this somewhere, lol.)

I agree with this - because once they get out of the sounds part, on the videos its all just using squares to do syllable/phoneme identification/substitution/additions/deletions.    This is why Barton says to jump to Barton at that point (Level 1 being basically a similar type of tile work).   In the LIPs videos, they do continue to talk about the names for the sounds (lip popper etc) during all this part, but not nearly as much (and you could certainly do that with another program as well).    When I did LIPs with DD I did not jump to generic tiles like they did, I just kept having her using the magnetic mouth tiles I had made, to keep her focus on paying attention to her mouth to feel what sounds were in the word - because that is the part of the program she needed work on (heck, we had done plenty of stuff like the later part already - and she still couldn't do it correctly consistently or quickly ).

 

Simply put, the first part of LIPs teaches a kinesthetic method (your mouth/lips/tongue/breath that you are using as you say the word) to pull apart a word into it's different sounds. (ETA - as part of this it also teaches them to identify when they are saying the wrong sound - and can be used when reading to point out the wrong sound they are saying and the right sound they need to be saying).

 

FYI, I don't really like the above simple description, because to me it would not have sounded like something DD really needed.  And she did need it - LIPs is one of a very few programs that DD had quick, obvious improvement from.

[PeterPan]

I have read through about ten dyscalculia books in the past several months. Ronit Bird has been the best, and even her own Overcoming Difficulties with Numbers refers repeatedly to her Dyscalculia Toolkit.

Ok, I answered my own question here.  It looks like the Toolkit and Overcoming and Resource books have older target ages.  The Dot and c-rods books are more foundational and will be fabulous for ds.  They seem to have the logic of RS but with more doing, less talking, and a more detailed approach to each conceptual step. That way I keep the conceptual I'm used to but just have more tools to teach it, which is what I need.

 

Oh, we tried RS A.  First day, sing Yellow is the Sun...  I say to myself yes, this will work, he's starting to sing.  (Mind you there's no melody, but words come out and he's joyful, which is pretty close to singing, lol.)  So we work through the entire book, he asks to do it again, everything is great, I pat myself.  Then I wonder how in the world we're supposed to do this over and over if EVERY STEP has this much language!  And I've taught through it before, so I know there's a lot of language.  It's not just a matter of whether you talk but that the concepts are supposed to process through language rather than through vision or through touching.  Tell me the ways to make 5, 7, 10.  Well we were talking, not doing.  Lots of relying on auditory for the card games and abacus, even though they want you to visualize.  I think it's why dd struggled to nail her facts with RS.  She did great conceptually, but things just wouldn't solidify properly.  

 

So I'm pretty happy with the idea of trying the RB ebooks.  They look open and go and just his speed.  He should go bonkers for them.  

[PeterPan]

Geodob, that's a fascinating twist!  We started using sign language with him when he was two, because he had no speech.  (None, like no animal sounds, nada, zilch.  Inventoried with two sounds making one word, and he never used them.)  Sign language works the language part of the brain, so the SLP encouraged it and said to use it interchangeably and would use it herself in sessions.  Lately he's been signing again for things.  I would need to talk with her about how much to encourage that.  See right now he will tend to *turn off* his speech and use the signing.  His signs are accurate and communicative, but our goal is to make sure he continues to grow in his ability to get out his thoughts with speech.  It might be he's reverting to the signs because they're more intuitive or natural or easy for him, as you say, being very kinesthetic.  It's like when my dd would use her auditory processing to do what her visual processing should have been doing, because her visual processing was weak.  They shy away from using the hard system, and sometimes you have to MAKE them use the weaker approach to help them get better at it.  We require speech for EVERYTHING and he gets NOTHING without speaking.  He can use a sign, but then we require him to use words.  It's sort of the stress or danger of apraxia, that you're always thinking about what happens if I don't make him speak...  

 

But I totally get why you're saying it and it's a fascinating insight to think in terms of kinesthetic THINKING.  Thanks.  I have the videos and can let him sign more.  I just have to be super careful to make sure that he's always speaking.  I'm getting tense even thinking about this.  It's just been in the last couple weeks he has been doing this, and it's sort of a ditch speech and use ASL because it's easier, which I can't allow.  He has to do the hard thing and speak.  Speaking and growing in your ability to get out your thoughts and feelings is hard work!  I do him no favors if I allow him out of that, even for a moment.  It's sort of this marathon we're in, the long haul of being diligent every day with it and letting the ability and naturalness of the motor control build up.  I know that little steps add up to bigger things later.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail.  It's an amazing thought and I'm going to ponder it, not only for sign language but for the math.  See what you're saying is what I sort of was thinking with math, that we could get the language out of the way and let him THINK with the manipulatives, think kinesthetically.

 

Oh, I'll have to think on that idea of going math to kinesthetic, with no word or symbol.  I don't think I'm ready to implement a soroban.  I picked up a simple one in a book kit on clearance this summer, and it's nifty.  I just don't think he's ready for it.  I think I'm going to get the Ronit Bird dot pattern and cuisinaire rods books.  They seem age-appropriate and game-driven.

[Heathermomster]

The Dot and c-rods books are more foundational and will be fabulous for ds.

OhE, which books are you looking at now?

 

I've seen books by Kathy Richardson recommended that might be worth a look.

[PeterPan]

OhE, which books do you looking at now?  

 

I've seen books by Kathy Richardson recommended that might be worth a look.

Hey, go to the RB website and click ebooks.  She has two books, one for dot patterns and one for c-rods.  They don't seem to overlap with the other books, which have older target ages.  I kind of assumed they're more preliminary and meant as precursors.  But maybe I'm all wet and you can look at the toc or something and tell that they duplicate content from the other books?  I don't know.  I just think what I'm seeing looks like stuff he would do and enjoy.  You can click resources and see her downloads for game boards.  It's like RS just more detailed and with more doing.

[PeterPan]

Laughing cat, you're making a lot of sense.  Thanks for explaining all that!  What you're saying about how they use the mouth cards and the kinesthetic to help them connect to the sound makes perfect sense.  I took linguistics classes in college, so they idea of voiced/voiceless pairs, plosives, fricatives, etc. already makes a lot of sense.  Makes it easy to see where it's going.

 

I have a question for you.  Did you have any issues with working memory?  At what age did you start this?  I've known for some time ds was going to have issues with working memory, because he was stumbling over activities in the MFW preschool card decks.  We haven't worked on it much, because frankly I don't know what aspect of working memory is age and what is needing some help.  I did the Barton pretest on him this morning, and he banged out the syllables, which I'm elated about.  He utterly refused to do the words in a sentence (section A), so it's hard to infer much from that.  For section C, I predicted the working memory would trip him up from doing it, and that's exactly what happened.  Barton seems to use the one, complex task to analyze for both.  It seems like her answer is, no matter what, do LIPS, whether it's working memory or the actual sounds as the issue or both.  But did LIPS give you any bump in working memory?  

 

I have no clue what I'm talking about, lol.  I'm just trying to figure out how to interpret what I saw.  I can either work on working memory separately (fine, probably should anyway) or do LIPS or both.  However what is NT 5 yo working memory?  Is there a recommended age for that Barton screening tool?  Is there any possibility that a 5 yo is not normally *able* to do section C on the test?  I wouldn't want to proceed forward if it was a matter of time or something else, kwim?  

[PeterPan]

Here are some great c-rod videos.

 

I wanted to mention another product that doesn't get as much attention.  It's called Mathematics Made Meaningful and it put out by ETA Cuisenaire.  I used this with DS and then loaned it to a friend that math tutors.  It is possible to order the booklet and activity cards without the c-rods, but you'd need to call ETA Cuisenaire directly....NAYY

You know I can't fathom why I didn't get those cards when I bought my c-rods.  I ordered them from ETA to get fresh, swanky ones, so I sure could have.  Who knows why.  In any case, I'm really fascinated by the RB rods book and think I might try that.  Maybe we'll compare notes and see which we like better!  :)

[Heathermomster]

Both books look great. Awesome!

[prairiewindmomma]

Overcoming Difficulties and Toolkit do have games on early skills. Overcoming Difficulties has a whole chapter on subitizing---mostly dominoes and card games.  I don't have access to Toolkit right now, but I know there's stuff there.

The ebooks sound great; but I haven't seen them irl.

I just wanted to toss that in for people who read in later; it sounds like you are on the right track!

[Heathermomster]

I need to dig my ETA activity cards back out. They are sold with a kit and are more teacher friendly than Miquon. The book in the kit is important and helps you identify what activitiy cards to use with the student when a problem arises.

 

Skip my ETA suggestion and use the RB books. The dot and c-rod activities will be plenty. As you start using the RB e-books, you will begin to recognize how various math curric publishers choose to approach presenting math concepts.

 

The RB activities are fun, just keep the lessons short and sweet. :)

[Heathermomster]

Overcoming Difficulties and Toolkit do have games on early skills. Overcoming Difficulties has a whole chapter on subitizing---mostly dominoes and card games. My 4.75 yo has been playing them with my 7.5 year old with no problem. I don't have access to Toolkit right now, but I know there's stuff there.

 

The ebooks sound great; but I haven't seen them irl.

 

I just wanted to toss that in for people who read in later; it sounds like you are on the right track!

I was surgical with my use of those RB books. I preferred the Overcoming Difficulties and used it when DS was 5th grade to teach multiplication and division. There is an early chapter that taught a mental math technique called bridging that was very useful. The books could be used from preK on, I just wish they didn't cost so much.