Need help: 10yo son is distracted, overwhelmed ????

[nikkistone]

Alright Hive.  I need some suggestions.

 

I need help with my 10 year old son who is hitting a brick wall when doing math.

 

BACKGROUND:  This is our first year homeschooling.  My son, who I think is fully capable of doing the math, also hit a brick wall in public school 4th grade last year.  He *constantly* had to miss recess to work on overdue work.  His former teacher would find him daydreaming and generally not doing his work in class (he wasn't playing... he just was not working).  He was in the advanced math class last year and kept saying the work was too hard.  Even though he always got A's.

 

So now we're home; this is our 3rd week of school, and he's hit a brick wall again.  We're not even to new material (we're started in between the begininng and the middle of Saxon 54 because the beginning of 54 was too easy, yet he's not ready for 65). 

 

He says he can't even start the problems.  He says he's no good at math.  He starts crying.  He claims he's tired. He says he feels worthless.

 

Since we had similar problems last year when he was in public school, I'm slow to blame the curriculum.  I'm patient with him (for the most part :mellow: ) so I don't think he's reacting to how I'm treating him.

 

Help.  I don't want him to hate school (or math) or himself.

[*Lulu*]

Does he struggle with any other subject?

 

Does he exhibit frustration with other tasks he views as difficult?

[sbgrace]

I'd think about doing some testing. We're pursuing this with my 4th grader right now. We couldn't manage the cost of private testing at this time, but the school system is providing it free of charge. I'm hoping we figure out some underlying things that might help me help him.

 

What I'm doing now is just a little bit of math together with him daily. Today my son did 3 long division problems. Well, 4 now that I think of it--but he required a lot of talking through with two of them.  I split that into two sessions. I was with him the entire lesson. That's math at our house. I mean, some topics (geometry for example) are easy for him. But attention issues and other processing things (like holding things in his head while thinking about or completing other steps...which a lot of math involves at this level) mean he needs a lot of hand holding and modification. I'm really trying to preserve his feelings of competency in math. He of course knows it's not his thing. But I'm trying to provide some easy success with a bit of it at the edge of his competency--with scaffolding to help him be successful there. I want to specify that he's capable of what we're doing. It's at the edge of his competency because of the other issues interfering with focus and the like. I could never hand my kid a full page of problems to do without overwhelming him, no matter how easy it might be. I'm rambling! But you may need to hand hold a lot more possibly? 

[Mommy22alyns]

Was the PS curriculum similar to Saxon?  I also wonder if it's just math or other things as well.

[Luanne]

I agree with sbgrace.  I also could be that Saxon isn't a good fit for him. 

[Catwoman]

I'd say he's just being a typical 10yo boy who doesn't want to do his math and is seeing if he can get away with it by playing the sympathy card.

[letsplaymath]

A few short comments:

 

(1) Middle school math is *really* hard. In the following blog post, I list out the standard method for subtracting mixed numbers: seven steps, many of which have sub-steps of their own. Then I show a better way to help your child approach such a problem by using his common sense.

• Subtracting Mixed Numbers: A Cry for Help

In my experience, Saxon teaches the standard method, but it doesn't give much support for a common-sense approach. Your job as a teacher is to provide some balance, helping your son use whatever math he does remember to figure out the problems he doesn't (at first) know how to do.

 

(2) As I do for anyone whose student is struggling with math, I suggest you try a Buddy Math approach. By working together, you can support and encourage your son and keep him from feeling so overwhelmed by the page full of problems. Buddy math is not a curriculum itself, but a way to use whatever curriculum you have. It should work well with Saxon.

 

And if at all possible, use a white board. Math is ever so much easier (or at least it feels that way) on a white board.

 

(3) Set a timer for math, and make the time short enough that he feels the end is in sight. I suggest no more than 30 minutes a day, at least until you both adjust to homeschooling. And when the timer rings, STOP, even if you are in the middle of a problem. When I'm working with my daughter, we will stop at the end of any problem we finish in the last 5 minutes.

 

Doing math in such short sessions has really helped us avoid the emotional melt-downs we used to have. Thinking is hard work, and she can only do it for a certain amount of time before she crashes. I much prefer to stop before the emotional crash rather than after it. And because I am sitting with her and working together every problem, I know exactly what she understands and when we can skip a problem (or even jump several lessons), which means that we manage to get through our textbook in about the same length of time as normal.

 

 

 

 

[Χά�ων]

 I also could be that Saxon isn't a good fit for him. 

Saxon could be the problem. It seems to be a love it or hate it program. I fell into the hate it category.

[nikkistone]

Good morning, y'all.  Thanks so much for your responses! Let me answer a few questions...

 

IS IT JUST MATH?  Yes and no.  In general, yes, it's just math.  Although he has balked at doing assignments in other subjects that appear to "take forever".  He did this just yesterday with a spelling assignment (look up the definitions of his 20 spelling words and briefly write down the definitions).  Granted, this was after a massive math crying jaunt so he legitmately could have been exhausted.

 

PS CURRIC SIMILAR TO SAXON? I have no idea.  I'm not experienced enough at Saxon to know if his public school curric was similar. Plus, I wasn't even familiar with his PS curriculum (they weren't allowed to bring home textbooks).  Their homework was a piece of paper, not assignments out of their books.

 

 

As far as testing, what kind of testing would I get for him? 

 

I tried a timer with him yesterday.  I set it for 15 minutes and it didn't help one iota. 

 

This may be a dumb question, but is there a way to find out if the problem is Saxon without having to buy another curric first?  Our budget is pretty tight.

 

Again, THANK YOU for your help and responses. 

[Χά�ων]

Many curriculums have free placement tests. There are several different online resources to determin what skills are needed in what grade.

 

You might check your loal library, I was in mine the other day and discovered that they had several different math curriculums.

 

You might ask DS if he knows what the math book looked like or try pulling up your sons school district website on the wayback machine and see if they mention what math book they used. There are some horrid math curriculums out there and he may just need to spend time reviewing the basics.

[Lots of boys]

I just wanted to chime in to give you some encouragement. My ds 9 needs a lot of handholding with math. He is just starting gr. 4 with Math Mammoth. What has worked for us to keep his level of frustration down is to a) only do math for 30 min or less. b) do a lesson and most of the questions with him on a giant white board so he is standing, moving etc. c) when we are done the white board work, I give him a few short questions on paper and watch him as he does them so I can assist if he starts to melt down ( hopefully) prior.

 

This has helped a lot. Giving my son a sheet of math and walking away is always recipe for tears here.

[PeterPan]

As far as the curriculum options, most have placement tests online.  If you do their tests, you start to get a feel for how the curricula work.  I'd definitely do some checking on that if you didn't do placement tests before picking the book of Saxon.  You might look for something radically different, something you can do WITH him and possibly using a whiteboard.  I know you probably think you don't have time, but math is one of those things you don't really have time NOT to do.  In 4th, you can get away with 15-20 min of working with him and the rest as independent work and drill time.  I used BJU with my dd at that age, and it has a lot of virtues.  The new updated editions are TREMENDOUS.  

 

Sigh, now to say what I came to say.  :)  My dd who was in that position around that age (calling herself dumb in a subject even though her test scores were awesome, being contradictory to teach, etc.) turned out to have very low *processing speed* relative to IQ.  The child is bright enough that he's catching onto this, that something isn't right.  So personally, I would second the advice to go get some evals.  It's not you, and you're going to be guessing constantly changing curricula when you don't know what's really going on.  Some people say that's jumping the gun, however this IS the age where things come to a head.  Their strengths can't hide their weaknesses anymore.  You pulled him out knowing he had a potential something going on, and now you're seeing it.  So look into evals.  Come visit us on the LC/SN board.  We don't bite.  :)

 

You do evals to become a better teacher, to get the information so you know what's going on.  It's not about the labels.  

[PeterPan]

I'd say he's just being a typical 10yo boy who doesn't want to do his math and is seeing if he can get away with it by playing the sympathy card.

I bow to the wisdom of the Cat!  :D

 

And of course that's the challenge, sorting things out.  :)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm absolutely not an expert, but you can take a look at MEP math - it's free and very highly praised.  It is very different from "standard" math programs, so it might be a nice change. 

[Critterfixer]

My guys are nine going on ten this November and I've noticed that math is a lot more of a challenge for them now. They are both in 5/4. They are very capable of doing it, but they balk a bit, fuss a lot and dissolve in tears now and again. If they only bucked with Math I'd think that was the issue, but I've noticed a real increase in distractability overall. It's been gradual over the last few months. Lets say I give them an assignment and slip away to fold some laundry. I can say with accuracy that when I return someone will be flicking a pencil, giggling, making faces at his brother or both will be engaged in a giggle-war. They didn't do that six months ago.

Both are eating a lot, playing rough and behaving quite boyish-ly. Impulsive behavior is increasing. They don't seem to be thinking as clearly as they used to. Recently one got stung by a red wasp because he was throwing rocks at the nest. If that isn't reckless behavior....

 

How does this relate to math? Not exactly sure, but I think it does. Third grade math was easy. They had a lot of one step problems. They could memorize things and get by. Now they can't. Most of their problems have two steps, or require them to use information from more than one lesson. It's not easy when their brains are fluttering around like butterflies. Keeping them on task is a major struggle in my day right now.

 

Some things I've noticed that seem to help:

1) They do better when I'm right there. This is hard. I was hoping for a little more independence. But I don't even have to do much more than be right there.

2) Limit the explaining. I figure I have exactly 15 minutes tops and then they are both looking for squirrels.

3) Stop math at a certain time. Whatever doesn't get done gets done for homework in the evening. Sometimes just taking a break from it and moving on sort of resets the focus knob in some way. Charlotte Mason was pretty wise to the ways of young boys when she suggested short lessons.

 

I'm with Catwoman. I think it is the age. I took both my guys on a nature trip today and they couldn't focus on anything to save their little lives. And they LOVE nature trips! We were literally running from caterpillar to wierd nut on the ground to oh, look a dragonfly to look at all the berries to "Squirrel!"

[PeterPan]

There definitely is a developmental fog and lunacy that occurs for a few years.  My dd spent 10-12 telling me 2+3 was 7, that kind of thing.  It was pretty incredible.  Then she came to the other side at 13, hallelujah.  At 14, she's actually marvelous to work with.  Today we had FUN doing math together, something that has not been the case since she was 5 or 6, haha.  

 

But I'd distinguish that pre-teen fog from stuff that was there all along that gets worse as the material gets harder and they're unable to cover their lack of coping skills.  

[Critterfixer]

But I'd distinguish that pre-teen fog from stuff that was there all along that gets worse as the material gets harder and they're unable to cover their lack of coping skills. 

 

 

Yup. It's been nice that I've actually been able to watch the fog roll in so to speak. It's also nice that I've got two at the same age. Makes it really noticable.

 

I'd actually say that getting them through the pre-teen fog is a pretty big deal too. It is incredibly frustrating at times. Especially if you spend the time working on something only to have them look at you with big blank eyes, "Uh, what? Didn't hear you."

"Um, you didn't listen you little larva."

Extra chocolate is a must.

[PeterPan]

Yup. It's been nice that I've actually been able to watch the fog roll in so to speak. It's also nice that I've got two at the same age. Makes it really noticable.

 

I'd actually say that getting them through the pre-teen fog is a pretty big deal too. It is incredibly frustrating at times. Especially if you spend the time working on something only to have them look at you with big blank eyes, "Uh, what? Didn't hear you."

"Um, you didn't listen you little larva."

Extra chocolate is a must.

That was when we finally went to Teaching Textbooks, because it was just SO bad here, ugh.  Now she's doing so well with me today, you kinda wonder why I'm not just doing the BJU exclusively.  But that WASN'T how it was the last couple days, lol!  I just needed math done every day please.  I gave her  a math table then, so she could LOOK at it rather than repeating the same lunacy, lol.  Actually, the math table was when we were trying to do math together.  When I gave up and went to TT, we went to a calculator, blessing of the mother's mind!  

 

I used to endorse chocolate.  Then I gained 20 pounds the year we did 3 therapies at once including to a place 3 hours away.  Sniff, sniff...

[Critterfixer]

I used to endorse chocolate.  Then I gained 20 pounds the year we did 3 therapies at once including to a place 3 hours away.  Sniff, sniff...

 

Yeah--that's a drawback. I find that the darker kind I have to eat now (no soy allowed!) is strong enough to keep me from eating the whole bag...

 

But on a more serious note, I do think that even "normal" brain-fog isn't all that great for the kid either. It's pretty hard on my boys. They get more scraped knees, more bug bites, more bug stings and more bumps on the head from heedlessness, and they don't like having Mom upset either. Bless them, some days we just have to get along where we can.

I'm really working on cultivating a larger amount of patience.

 

Back to the OP: Have you tried backing up in Saxon 5/4? I'll admit, I sure thought my guys would steam through the first 20 lessons because it was all such review. Wrong! I'm very glad I didn't just skip ahead over what I thought they knew. They really did need to do the review.

[Pen]

Alright Hive.  I need some suggestions.

 

I need help with my 10 year old son who is hitting a brick wall when doing math.

 

BACKGROUND:  This is our first year homeschooling.  My son, who I think is fully capable of doing the math, also hit a brick wall in public school 4th grade last year.  He *constantly* had to miss recess to work on overdue work.  His former teacher would find him daydreaming and generally not doing his work in class (he wasn't playing... he just was not working).  He was in the advanced math class last year and kept saying the work was too hard.  Even though he always got A's.

 

So now we're home; this is our 3rd week of school, and he's hit a brick wall again.  We're not even to new material (we're started in between the begininng and the middle of Saxon 54 because the beginning of 54 was too easy, yet he's not ready for 65). 

 

He says he can't even start the problems.  He says he's no good at math.  He starts crying.  He claims he's tired. He says he feels worthless.

 

Since we had similar problems last year when he was in public school, I'm slow to blame the curriculum.  I'm patient with him (for the most part :mellow: ) so I don't think he's reacting to how I'm treating him.

 

Help.  I don't want him to hate school (or math) or himself.

 

 

Well, I personally dislike Saxon.

 

I think a lot of things might be better--and a lot have "look inside" types of samples, or websites where you and he can get a feel for them and see what might be a better fit.

 

And maybe something very very different for awhile might help--but what could depend on where exactly he is at this point.  (fractions? decimals?)

 

I also think it important to impart a "growth mindset" idea.   You might want to look at the book Mindset by Carol Dweck and also at the Stanford Math Course material some of us have been more or less following this summer and which still is available through September.   It may also have a class for children that could conceivably be helpful.   The idea is that hard equates with growing his brain.   And if it were easy that would mean that he was wrongly placed.

 

Some other free things include KhanAcademy, XtraMath, Sumdog, online.   Parts of other programs like MUS and AOPS have some free videos or problems available online and so on.

 

Trying to figure out if there is anything other than feelings in regard to the "wall" might be useful--something he does not "get" and that could then be dealt with.

 

Not much older than your ds, mine often needs to be active (climbing in a tree, playing ball) while he is working on a new skill and to do the new skill with very simple problems orally before transferring over to harder problems sitting down with paper and pencil.  He also likes--especially while up a tree or shooting baskets, the game "let's suppose..."     As in, say we have a question about the volume of a box with dimensions 1.5, 1.5, and 4... 

 

Me: What is volume?

He: [gives answer including how to get it, but then declares the numbers too hard.]

 

Me: "What's 1.5 x 4."  

He: "I can't do that, it's too hard."   (this is sort of a knee jerk answer, which I just sort of ignore, or say of course it is not, and go on...)

Me: "Well, let's suppose I ask you what is 15 x 4."  

He: "That's easy that's 60."  

"Okay, so now let's suppose you move the decimal one place over because it was only 1.5, not 15."  

"Okay, I know, I know.   That's 6.0."  

"Right.  Okay, so now let's suppose, I were to ask you what is 1.5 x 6 ..."   working to an answer to the specific question

 

and I then move gradually to something harder, getting that type of problem understood, until I think the mental math part is at an end.

[umsami]

Maria (MathMammoth) has a gigantic sample on her webpage.  They extended the 50% deal at HSBC for another week or so, so if you're going to buy it, it couldn't be more affordable.

 

Math in Focus (Singapore) has free "virtual" sampling online.  I think they give you like 6 months to look at it.  Because it's a Singapore approach, though, you might end up going back a year--as they approach things differently.  Just register as a homeschooler http://forms.hmhco.com/virtualsampling/index.php

 

Also second MEP, as well as going back to the beginning of 5/4.

 

You can also just do a lot of Khan Academy etc.

 

Teaching Textbooks has samples on their webpage as well.  Definitely do the placement test before purchasing.

 

One other option is that at least where I live, homeschoolers can request books from the state book depot.  Not that I'd want the math curriculum they use, but it's an option. :)

[PeterPan]

 

Not much older than your ds, mine often needs to be active (climbing in a tree, playing ball) while he is working on a new skill and to do the new skill with very simple problems orally before transferring over to harder problems sitting down with paper and pencil.  He also likes--especially while up a tree or shooting baskets, the game "let's suppose..."     As in, say we have a question about the volume of a box with dimensions 1.5, 1.5, and 4... 

 

Me: What is volume?

He: [gives answer including how to get it, but then declares the numbers too hard.]

 

Me: "What's 1.5 x 4."  

He: "I can't do that, it's too hard."   (this is sort of a knee jerk answer, which I just sort of ignore, or say of course it is not, and go on...)

Me: "Well, let's suppose I ask you what is 15 x 4."  

He: "That's easy that's 60."  

"Okay, so now let's suppose you move the decimal one place over because it was only 1.5, not 15."  

"Okay, I know, I know.   That's 6.0."  

"Right.  Okay, so now let's suppose, I were to ask you what is 1.5 x 6 ..."   working to an answer to the specific question

 

and I then move gradually to something harder, getting that type of problem understood, until I think the mental math part is at an end.

This is an exceptionally good mental picture of where I think my ds is going to be at for math.  Thanks for sharing!

[Mommy22alyns]

Yeah--that's a drawback. I find that the darker kind I have to eat now (no soy allowed!) is strong enough to keep me from eating the whole bag...

 

But on a more serious note, I do think that even "normal" brain-fog isn't all that great for the kid either. It's pretty hard on my boys. They get more scraped knees, more bug bites, more bug stings and more bumps on the head from heedlessness, and they don't like having Mom upset either. Bless them, some days we just have to get along where we can.

I'm really working on cultivating a larger amount of patience.

 

Back to the OP: Have you tried backing up in Saxon 5/4? I'll admit, I sure thought my guys would steam through the first 20 lessons because it was all such review. Wrong! I'm very glad I didn't just skip ahead over what I thought they knew. They really did need to do the review.

 

 

This is important to consider too.  It's so easy to flip past that, thinking, "Of course they still remember that!" but really they don't because despite the Summer Bridge workbooks, there was significant brain drain during the summer.  Ask me how I know...

 

 

But I would also venture that maybe Saxon isn't the best fit.

[Irishmommy]

My son REALLY disliked Saxon. So much so, he now tells his sister, "At least Mommy does make you do that torturous math!" We are now very happy with Singapore!