HELP me!!!! I am going to strangle my daughter....ok...not really...

[Pen]

...

...

 

I would also suggest adding the Danica McKellar book Math Doesn't Suck.  I was going to suggest this too!!!

 

 

 

A reasonable daily schedule for your daughter might be (1) read her choice of sections in the Danica book, about 15-20 minutes' worth, (2) play 15-20 minutes worth of online logic puzzle or math games, and (3--optional!) no more than 10 minutes of practice on arithmetic facts.

 

...

 

While she is taking her break from the textbook, you should do some homework of your own: buy or borrow an old, used edition of Basic College Mathematics, as 8FillTheHeart suggested above. Sometimes you can get it through your library, or the older editions that the colleges aren't using any more will be really cheap to buy (just go down a few pages in the search results to find them), and the math is still the same. There are a variety of authors who do similar books, so if you can get more than one, that will let you compare to see if you prefer one author or another.  Don't know which is linked, but I like Aufmann's particularly well--if you do it as Chalkdust math it will have teacher support also if you need to step out of the picture, and have someone else to give help.

 

Look at the book and consider whether it might be a good choice for your daughter, whenever she's ready to be brave and tackle arithmetic again. The fact that it's a college book should give her confidence that she's not as "behind" as you and she had thought. She CAN do this! Take it slowly, just a couple of pages a day. It is a college book, so it's okay to take longer than a year, if you need to.

 

And then whether you use a college textbook, or go back to Math Mammoth, or use something else, I urge you to consider doing the math buddy-style. It has really, hugely helped my daughter's attitude about math that I'm not asking her to do it on her own, and that I give her the control of choosing which problems she does.

 

Definitely want to second the McKellar book.  Your library may even have it.

 

 

I suggest visiting various program websites and letting her test out things like Teaching Textbooks and see whether she thinks she can learn  and would like to try that.  You may have to be right there for support even with something like TT.

 

I suggest calling for support from programs like MUS and MM that you already have tried, and see what they can offer.

 

Try movement while doing math (my ds sometimes does math practice and basketball together), or math while on a stationary bike--some kids can think better while moving.  Math and ice cream is also popular here.

 

Try computer assistance such as Khan Academy, (or TT), Sumdog for facts drill practice, etc.

 

Maybe a program with support like Chalkdust, or  maybe a local tutor.

[Pen]

PS and consider looking into the possibility of some LD.

[Donna in Idaho]

Sounds so similar to what my daughter and I went through.

 

We started with Math U See and are back with Math U See. I tried switching to Saxon, Teaching Textbooks, and Life of Fred at different times, only to hit the same walls over and over. I decided it was a math issue, not a curriculum issue. To me, Math U See was the best choice because of its focus on mastery. We had days and days of tears, frustration and feelings of failure -- for her AND me! I don't mean to sound overly simplistic, but the turning point came for me when I decided to truly let her work at her own pace; to accept that she was NOT mathematically-minded, and that was just the way it was.  

 

Once I honestly got ahold of that, I communicated to her EVERY DAY when we sat down for math that we would take our time and go at her pace -- forget about "she's behind!" However, I also told her that we were not going to run from math, but we were going to face it head-on; the two of us. I let her know in no uncertain terms that math was not optional, it is a very necessary part of everyday life. I also communicated to her that I knew she was totally capable of conquering the day's assignment, and I would stick with her as she worked through it. Sometimes I had to wait patiently while she cried or had a tantrum (I did not allow her to leave the table), and then encourage her again that we were going to go at her pace, move forward, and conquer it together. I would work problems first, tell her my steps. Then it was her turn, and I would have her verbalize each step, too (she HATED this part -- but it was so important to find out where her understanding had holes), and we would continue to work problems together, verbalizing, until she felt she could do it. I would sit with her or stay nearby during her whole lesson time, so she would know I was on her team and there for her. 

 

This took a LONG time, and it was a very difficult commitment for me. I did let her have a say in what time of day she felt she could give her best to math (right after lunch was her choice; then later she made it her first subject of the day so she could 'get it over with.') Working at her own pace sometimes meant only a half a worksheet a day, because we focused more on getting the attitude under control (switching from a math 'victim' to a math 'tackler'). At first we had to back up quite a bit to solidify foundational concepts that she hadn't truly mastered. Other times she was able to move faster than normal, and I let her -- but I did not let her do fewer problems just because a concept came more easily. I knew she needed the practice for long-term retention, and I felt like the complaining feeling of "but this is SO easy!" was an opportunity to help her gain confidence. I did have her doing Calculadders three days a week (at the beginning of math time), and playing Times Attack (a free multiplication game on the computer that she liked) when her lessons were done. I let her use her times tables, conversion charts, and notes whenever she needed them. I knew that as time went on and she collected victories in her lessons that her need for these "helps" would fade away (and they do). Lots of encouragement, lots of support, lots of patience...

 

I think the thing I realized was that she felt like such a failure when it came to math because she truly couldn't grasp it on her own, and I didn't catch on to that early enough. We really had to work hard to get her to understand that just because something is hard doesn't mean we quit, and that we have to face adversity head on and with all of our might. I also wanted her to know that she doesn't have to struggle alone; there is no shame in needing and accepting help, and it is part of my joy as a mama to come along side her. And for me, I had to learn that I needed to see HER (not my expectation of her) and accept her for her strengths AND weaknesses.

 

Now, I didn't mean for this post to sound all "touchy feely" -- I am generally the first to tell my kids to 'suck it up!' With this child, and with this subject, however, I had to take a different course, and I'm so glad I did. She was almost two years behind, but has now gained ground to where she will be starting at grade level this year. I still start every math lesson with her (after she watches the video), and have her verbally walk me through how to solve the problems. I will let her use a calculator, but only after she demonstrates knowledge of the concept, and I do make her write out her equations first and show all her work, including formulas and drawings (wherever appropriate -- like for figuring area) on her paper. I still let her use conversion charts and notes. Sometimes we park on a topic for awhile, and I print out extra practice sheets to really cement the tough stuff. Math is still her dreaded subject, but she squares her shoulders and digs in, for the most part. :)

 

Hope this is helpful to you. It has been good for me to write it, because it reminds me that I need to adopt the same attitude for my younger daughter, who is struggling with reading. ;)

[ProudGrandma]

I think the sprial apporach is wrong too..we tried SAxon and there simmply wasn't enough proactice of the new skill to make them comfortable moving on...that is why we moved to MUS.

 

We just discovered last evening with flash cards, that she DOES know her facts just fine...it's only when you put them together with other things, like simplifying frations that she jams up...all of a sudden everything she knows goes out the winddow...including basic math facts...so it appeared to me that she didn't know her facts as well as she does.

 

I looked at TT and now hearing that it's spiral, I think that one is out the door...unless there is also a page or more of the same type of probem to get it set in her brain.

 

thank you for all of your posts....I think now what we are dealing with is a confidence problem and jumping over the hurdle of "I hate math"....she may hate it, but she can do it...

 

so, how do we get past THAT??? or is is it just a matter of plowing forward....rewards...setting goals...what???

 

Trying to figure out this whole deal has costs us days of moving forward...and since I see the end....and it's WAY down there...like beyond this school year....since I was really hoping to be working on the 6th grade curriculum this year...and we are still picking out parts of the 5th grade she hasn't had....I feel like we are NEVER going to get there....but I suppose we are...someday...sigh...thanks everybody!

[mrs.m]

have you looked at Aleks? It's not spiral and can help with remediation.

[Haiku]

I also felt that spiral wouldn't work for my son as he is the type that needs repeated practice with a concept to cement it. But what I discovered (through using MM with him for a disastrous 1/2 year) is that "mastery" programs promote his anxiety because he feels like, "I don't get this, and I have to keep working on it and keep working on it and keep working on it." The spiral approach of TT works so much better for him because he is simultaneously working on something he's got down pat, something he's recently learned, and something new. I see the pattern in his lessons. On the day the new concept is introduced, he generally misses all (or most) of the questions about it. But over the next two weeks, he catches on to the concept and starts getting most of the questions on that concept right. And it's good for him because the questions he bombs are tucked in among other questions he gets right, so he doesn't really notice he's not getting the new concept right away.

 

I once heard about an educational theory that kids need to be introduced to a concept and then let it mush around in their minds for a while before they can move forward with it. I have found this to be true of my son, and so the "learn this today, add to it tomorrow, add more the next day" approach does not work for him. He needs a few days to let any new concept gel in his mind.

 

My dd, on the other hand, is quite the opposite. She loved MM and thrives with the "pile-on" method of education. She thought TT (which she worked on in addition to MM, just because she wanted to) was fun because it was novel, but eventually the spiral nature drove her bonkers and she asked to quit (which was funny, because I never required it of her anyway). The same happened with Hake Grammar, which she initially loved because it is challenging but grew to hate because it is so extremely spiral. We've gone a completely different direction this year for grammar.

[8filltheheart]

so, how do we get past THAT??? or is is it just a matter of plowing forward....rewards...setting goals...what???

 

Trying to figure out this whole deal has costs us days of moving forward...and since I see the end....and it's WAY down there...like beyond this school year....since I was really hoping to be working on the 6th grade curriculum this year...and we are still picking out parts of the 5th grade she hasn't had....I feel like we are NEVER going to get there....but I suppose we are...someday...sigh...thanks everybody!

 

This is why BCM might be a good fit.   (don't know for sure, obviously.)   But, if you use BCM or another similar type text, you won't have to feel like you need to race forward to catch up.   Then she won't be doing 5th grade or 6th grade or 7th grade math, but reviewing and studying all elementary level math covered in a single text.    Knowing that when she finishes a text like this that she has mastered everything she needs to move forward to pre-alg or alg might give both of you breathing space and more confidence.

[Haiku]

Then she won't be doing 5th grade or 6th grade or 7th grade math, but reviewing and studying all elementary level math covered in a single text.

Good way to look at things!

[Pen]

The auto quote isn't working for me, so I copied and am going to try to intersperse replies below.

 

I think the sprial apporach is wrong too..we tried SAxon and there simmply wasn't enough proactice of the new skill to make them comfortable moving on...that is why we moved to MUS.  MUS worked well for my ds, in that he has excellent recall now of what he learned with it.  He did come to certain blocks and horrible stages with each level he did of it as they got harder, but generally got past that.  I had to remind him that such blocks do happen from time to time and just take practice to get through.  He found MUS "boring" and perhaps I wrongly capitulated to move to other thing, which was MM, and while theoretically more fun with the puzzles, riddles and so on, and while I would consider it an excellent program, in fact, it did not produce particularly good results in our case.  

 

AoPS does now seem to be a good fit for him--but he tends to be strong on concepts.  

We just discovered last evening with flash cards, that she DOES know her facts just fine...it's only when you put them together with other things, like simplifying frations that she jams up...all of a sudden everything she knows goes out the winddow...including basic math facts...so it appeared to me that she didn't know her facts as well as she does.    That is normal/typical/not unusual!!!  Many people, children, animals, temporarily "lose" a skill while working on a new harder one.  It is a good reason to allow (and for her to allow herself) use of multiplication table or calculator while working on the new skill.

I looked at TT and now hearing that it's spiral, I think that one is out the door...unless there is also a page or more of the same type of probem to get it set in her brain.  I still think letting her try the free online samples of TT would be a good idea.

thank you for all of your posts....I think now what we are dealing with is a confidence problem and jumping over the hurdle of "I hate math"....she may hate it, but she can do it...  The Math Doesn't Suck book may help her.  Also the Stanford course on math education which is still available may help you with this issue.  Also there is supposed to be a course for children themselves to follow the one for adults (free), which might help her directly.

so, how do we get past THAT??? or is is it just a matter of plowing forward....rewards...setting goals...what???

Trying to figure out this whole deal has costs us days of moving forward...and since I see the end....and it's WAY down there...like beyond this school year....since I was really hoping to be working on the 6th grade curriculum this year...and we are still picking out parts of the 5th grade she hasn't had....I feel like we are NEVER going to get there....but I suppose we are...someday...sigh...thanks everybody! 

• Like This

• Quote
• MultiQuote
   
•  

[AK_Mom4]

Since she knows her facts and YOU KNOW she knows her facts, I would let her use fact sheet or even a calculator if that's faster when she is working. That will go a long way on the confidence building.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't be in a hurry to jump curriculums. Find some placement tests from other publishers (TT is good and free) and use the tests to see what her gaps REALLY are. Then concentrate on those for a bit. There are tons of free sites for worksheets and such.

[songsparrow]

If you are looking for a mastery approach, I'd highly recommend Singapore Math (Standards Ed).  For your situation, I'd recommend getting the textbook, workbook and Home Instructor's Guide.  The HIG gives you a solid script for teaching the lesson, and includes the optional use of manipulatives to help cement the concepts.  You can walk through the problems in the textbook together, and then she can try the problems in the workbook on her own.  They also have Extra Practice workbooks that you could get as well.  The books are quite reasonably priced.

 

It's a mastery approach that focuses on teaching mental math techniques as well as creative problems solving using word problems.  Lessons will often show multiple methods to reach the answer.

 

Finding the right level for my girls took a little trial and error (in part because I was moving them from PS and I didn't know exactly what they had and hadn't covered).  I mostly looked at the Scope & Sequence chart to see what I thought they already knew, but there are also Placement Tests available on the website.  You should note for your daughter that their numbers do not correspond directly to grade levels, so she shouldn't worry about the number on the book.

[PeterPan]

Since she knows her facts and YOU KNOW she knows her facts, I would let her use fact sheet or even a calculator if that's faster when she is working. That will go a long way on the confidence building.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't be in a hurry to jump curriculums. Find some placement tests from other publishers (TT is good and free) and use the tests to see what her gaps REALLY are. Then concentrate on those for a bit. There are tons of free sites for worksheets and such.

 

Agreeing with AK.  If she knows her facts, then you let her use a calculator and get things moving.  What you're seeing is processing speed and things that could be eval'd to give you better into on how to teach.  I knew my dd had issues, but I never realized my dd's processing speed was as low as it was (is).  When we found that out with the evals, I handed her a calculator and never looked back.  

[katilac]

If you are looking for a mastery approach, I'd highly recommend Singapore Math (Standards Ed).   <snip>

 

It's a mastery approach that focuses on teaching mental math techniques as well as creative problems solving using word problems.  Lessons will often show multiple methods to reach the answer.

 <snip>

While I really like Singapore math, and used it for years in elementary, I don't know that I would suggest it for someone who is struggling and frustrated, AND who has already tried multiple programs. One issue is that it often includes very difficult problems, that not every student is EXPECTED to be able to solve. It can be very difficult for a parent to figure out which problems these are - it's been years since I've used it, but my instructor's guide certainly didn't tell me. Now, I think it can be beneficial, VERY, to struggle through these problems even if you don't get to the solution, but it might be too much for a kid already on the math edge. I still remember this one problem in level 6 that stumped not only me and dd, but my mathy and math-loving dh, lol, AND the poor person we sucked in during the "I'd like to call a friend" portion of the math lesson. (remember, if you are following the Singapore method, you won't be using algebra to solve).

 

I also wanted to interject a note on mastery. As another poster noted (on this thread? I can't even remember), few math programs fit neatly into a category of either mastery or spiral. Singapore is not spiral compared to Saxon, but it doesn't veer all the way to MUS's idea of mastery, either.

[Mom22ns]

I think the suggestion of BCM sounds like a good fit. It is mastery and you think that is the best approach for her. I would suggest this version. It is the 7th edition instead of the 8th and is very cheap. There are TONS of problems. She should always start by doing just the odds, but if something gives her trouble, she can do evens too and have about 100 problems per lesson to practice if she needs them.

 

To give her confidence, you will have to back up to work she can do and introduce new topics gradually. Was it 8 that said she needs rock star math? I agree she needs to feel like a rock star without feeling like she is doing second grade math. I know you have switched programs a lot already, but I don't think you've landed in a good place yet. Something that makes her feel successful without being babyish... options in my mind are:

 

BCM - says College. Small font, looks grown up. Good explanations. Lots of examples. If she has trouble focusing with a page with a lot on it, this is a bad choice because they are big full pages.

 

TT - she will probably test into 6th or 7th grade, so she could feel like she has moved forward and can still succeed! It is easier. It is slower. It starts every level with a lot of review so if she is skipping ahead from her 5th grade MM, the review will make sure she didn't miss anything. TT has a great chance of making her feel successful. It also takes YOU out of the equation, and with a 13 yo dd that could be big. The down side here is not the spiral (it isn't a crazy spiral like Saxon, really nothing is) the downside is the price. Well worth it if it turns her attitude around though.

 

I think the key here is that you have to change something. She is in a vicious self-defeating cycle. You can't get her out with words. You have to DO something. I know it seems like you've tried before and you have, but you have to try again. I almost never recommend changing math programs, but I honestly think it is going to be the key to changing your dds attitude and giving her another chance at success.

[PeterPan]

Nope, it was me with the rock star math.  :)  

 

Just as an observation, your resale value with TT is EXCELLENT.  Even if you buy it new, you're only going to lose about 25%.  

[DarlaS]

I think the suggestion of BCM sounds like a good fit. It is mastery and you think that is the best approach for her. I would suggest this version. It is the 7th edition instead of the 8th and is very cheap. There are TONS of problems. She should always start by doing just the odds, but if something gives her trouble, she can do evens too and have about 100 problems per lesson to practice if she needs them.

Also for the 7th edition:

 

Student Solutions manual: 0-321-27938-7 (The student text does have answers to odds in the back.)

Digital Video Tutor: isbn# 0-321-27949-2

Additional Drill and Skill: 0-321-33168-0

 

None of these are necessary, but I find that I prefer the DVT to reading the explanations in the book. I only have the solutions manual as it came with a set of books I bought from another homeschooler here on the sale board. I never use it.

 

I am working through Introductory Algebra, but all the books have a similar set up. I put in the video, play it to the point where the first objective has been covered, do the margin problems that pertain to that objective and then move on. This is faster and more effective for me. When I am done with that, I either do some problems from the lesson's exercises, or the Drill and Skill Manual.

 

Incidentally, the DVT's + Additional Drill and Skill Manual would solve the problem of Lial's being too "busy". I may have already said that earlier, but if that's the only reason to not choose BCM, this is a good work-around. I see 35-40 problems per lesson typically (I don't have it in front of me right now). My (very very) easily distracted dd does better with this book.

[purplejackmama]

This entire thread has been an enormous help to me and my own struggling Math student. Thank you for all the insight, wisdom, and encouragement you all gave.  Love, love, love these boards!