What is the etiquette protocol here?

[AimeeM]

It was from Amazon I believe (the box said Amazon on it). I'm not sure how I would go about returning it? (if my husband decides to)

[Seasider]

It was from Amazon I believe (the box said Amazon on it). I'm not sure how I would go about returning it? (if my husband decides to)

The packing slip usually includes return instructions.

[LaCEmom]

I really dislike drama, so I'd probably send a brief thank you note and be done with it. Any further attempts she made at contact would still be ignored and if she ever asked about it and I couldn't avoid her then I'd be be able to say "Didn't you get the card?" and be done with that conversation as well.

[zoobie]

It was from Amazon I believe (the box said Amazon on it). I'm not sure how I would go about returning it? (if my husband decides to)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=15015731#recipientreturns

[gardenmom5]

okay -just got on. 

if you have severed contact with dsm previously - I would not even acknowledge the gift- at. all.  not even to your father - as that is still half a victory for her.

 

this is NOT about politeness - but about maintaining boundaries against someone who has no respect for them.  if she was trying to reestablish contact for altruistic reasons, she wouldn't have used a large "gift" that makes you feel coerced.

[gardenmom5]

Send it back.

 

to return to amazon, you will also probably have to pay return shipping unless the item is "damaged or not as described".  I'd probably just donate it - or sell it on craigslist. 

Thanking just dad would REALLY anger her. Is that okay? I know it's a stupid question, but I don't want to feel like we're intentionally "stirring the pot". She will be angry with us - and with my father.

so what if she get's angry.   she's playing a game, and she's trying to "guilt" you into giving in so she will "win" this round.  the only way to win - is to refuse to play.  refusing to play will also really anger her.  too bad, so sad.

  She sounds like a control freak.

 

she sounds like someone with a personality disorder.   everything is about them - and they are VERY manipulative. they can also do a lot of damage to other people's pysches.

Autumn is 12. I hesitate to say much to her because she does know bits and pieces of what's going on. She's had a hard time in the past feeling like she's being dragged into it. I also know my SM well enough to know that if we simply tell Autumn that we haven't room for the gift, and she tells SM, SM will say something that will blow that out of the water (not mean to Autumn, but she'll let her know that this isn't the case and that Mommy and Daddy don't "like" her, or something to that effect).

I think we may just have to tell Autumn the truth. Somehow.

my maternal grandmother was similar to your step-mother.  I was 13 when I figured out for myself my grandmother was a hypocritical witch who only did things to make herself look good - no matter who that hurt.  (she also deliberately hurt others to make herself look good.)  things fell off a cliff after that.

 

 you are doing your dd no favors by not being truthful with her, and she's old enough.  your sm will put her in the middle, because that's what these kind of manipulative people do.  you are allowing her to think this woman is/and the things she does, are okay - and she isn't, and they're not.

And fwiw, I had to go no unsupervised contact with my children for the SM figure in my life. That includes phone calls, in which you can only hear one side of the conversation. Burns me up when someone uses a kid to manipulate the behavior of the others in the family.

this.  

 

 

You owe her nothing either way no matter what the voices in her head tell her.

She's so special - the voices only talk to her.  :001_tt2:

 

And now she left me a voicemail (on my cell, not my husband's - she knows better than to call him) asking if T received the gift.

 

I'm not answering. I'm not calling back.

 

But between The Hive and me, I feel disrespectful. *sigh*

 

I suppose I'm still young enough that I feel some ridiculous need to be respectful to my parents, even when one is off her rocker and making everyone miserable. Bah.

You ARE disrespected by this woman. you have good manners and a standards of behavior.  she is attempting to use those things *against* you.   this gift isn't about reestablishing contact because she wants to fix the relationship, but about manipulation and making you "beholden" to her.

the need to respect your parent is never ridiculous - it is very sad when circumstances are thus that they you have to erect such boundaries because there is no respect of your autonomy.

[AimeeM]

Thank you so much guys. Just talking it through has made me feel better.

 

I do know I need to talk to Autumn, and I do know that she (Autumn) is starting to see things about her grandmother that make her upset. Little things... like not listening when Autumn talks about something, and continuing to ask the same question over and over; asking Autumn (the child!) if she's coming to see them this summer, even though I had already nixed that idea (to SM).

Thing is, while SM makes Autumn uncomfortable at times, she does love her (although I've noticed that she is more frequently ignoring SM's phone calls, for whatever reason - she says SM "talks too much"). I don't honestly think she'd be incredibly upset if we either cut off all unsupervised communication OR all communication in general.

Where it gets more sticky - if I cut off her contact with SM, Autumn's contact with my father (who she is very, very close to - talks to at least once a day, even though he lives 10 hours away and works full time) will become much more limited (if it even still exists). I know that this isn't our problem, necessarily, and that my dad needs to... er... grow a pair, but it still hurts my heart to know that Autumn will lose that.

[WishboneDawn]

Thanking just dad would REALLY anger her. Is that okay? I know it's a stupid question, but I don't want to feel like we're intentionally "stirring the pot". She will be angry with us - and with my father.

SHE intentionally stirred the pot. You're just trying to clean up the mess. She's looking for drama, good or bad so you can't win.

 

ETA: obviously edited between me posting and the next response.:)

[*Lulu*]

SHE intentionally stirred the pot. You're just trying to clean up the mess. Any fallout is on her head.

 

This cannot be said enough.

[gardenmom5]

Thank you so much guys. Just talking it through has made me feel better.

 

I do know I need to talk to Autumn, and I do know that she (Autumn) is starting to see things about her grandmother that make her upset. Little things... like not listening when Autumn talks about something, and continuing to ask the same question over and over; asking Autumn (the child!) if she's coming to see them this summer, even though I had already nixed that idea (to SM).

Thing is, while SM makes Autumn uncomfortable at times, she does love her (although I've noticed that she is more frequently ignoring SM's phone calls, for whatever reason - she says SM "talks too much"). I don't honestly think she'd be incredibly upset if we either cut off all unsupervised communication OR all communication in general.

Where it gets more sticky - if I cut off her contact with SM, Autumn's contact with my father (who she is very, very close to - talks to at least once a day, even though he lives 10 hours away and works full time) will become much more limited (if it even still exists). I know that this isn't our problem, necessarily, and that my dad needs to... er... grow a pair, but it still hurts my heart to know that Autumn will lose that.

I adored my grandfather - I also tried to only be there when she wasn't.  (fortunately, she worked and I'd only go over on days she worked.) 

it sounds like your dd is starting to "see" your SM for what she is (or isn't.).  help her put her thoughts into words and understand what is happening - you'll be doing her a favor in the long run.

you need to cut off unsupervised contact with your SM.  also teach your dd how to say "I need to get off the phone now".

 

I had phone rules for my grandmother.  as long as she was appropriate, I'd talk to her.  she got 15 mins once a week. (and only because she was old when I started those boundaries.)  I had phone calls that were no more than five minutes.

 

you can help your dd by understanding what are okay subjects, and what aren't.  off-limits subject should be a sign the conversation is over for this time.

by putting time limits on phone calls (she doesn't have to tell her there is a limit, just be aware of the time and when to say goodbye provided off-limits subjects don't come up.)

 

[WishboneDawn]

Well, I would return it and I wouldn't thank anyone. Because it's not really a gift. It's an effort to control you, a slap in the face, an "I know better than you" masquerade of gift-giving. It is sad to me that good people are put in a position of being made to feel guilty and rude when bad behavior is perpetrated on them. Angry, shmangry. She created the situation.

 

I would tell your DD that you were sending it back because there wasn't room for it and that in the future she should come to you about any contact with the gift-giver.

This is my favorite so far.

 

It's. Not. A. Gift.

 

It's her putting her foot in the door and anything beyond getting it out of your house lets her in. There will still be consequences to sending it back but at least there won't be that thing sitting in your basement, demanding some sort of acknowledgement.

[Scarlett]

This comes from growing up with a crazy, manipulative grandmother and never understanding why I was the only one who thought she was nuts. Then I got older and found out the whole family thought she was nuts, but wouldn't say anything.......all those years I thought *I* was crazy but I was only not old enough to be part of the super secret adult club!

 

 

Yep.  This reminds me of my xMIL who was like the OPs SM....always using gifts to try and manipulate us.  She lived far away and so ds has had very little contact with her.  I certainly never intended to keep a secret from him....she just didn't come up in conversation much.  Once XH (my husband at the time) and I were talking and I off handedly mentioned his 'crazy mother.'  Ds says, 'Grandmother is crazy?!'

 

XH and I looked at each other, caught and found out by our 8 year old.  I looked back at ds and said, 'well, yes she is, but we don't tell her because we don't want to hurt her feelings.'  LOL

 

He saw her a few weeks back for the first time since his dad and I divorced.  He is 13 years old now and he came home with some stories and a full understanding of just how crazy she is.

 

Ok, to OP, I say there is no 'right' answer to this.  When it was my MIL doing it to me *I* wanted to refuse the gifts...but XH wanted a relationship with his mom and he wanted the gifts.  But in your situation it is YOUR family and if YOU want to send the gift back, do it!  Either way, I do believe I would send a very formal thank you to her in writing.  I say that because ignoring her will make it worse and make her furious (especially if you thank your dad and not her).  If you send the gift back but thank her, she will get the message loud and clear that you are done being manipulated.  If she attempts contact after you send the very formal thank you note...just remind her you are in no contact.  Rinse and repeat as necessary.

 

(((hugs)))  Sorry.  I know how it is. 

[Incognito]

Maybe not the best idea, but I was thinking -

 

since she already talks with your DD, have your DD thank her and your dad for you.  Something like "dad would like me to thank you both for the gift".  Simple, done, but doesn't change the contact.

 

[gardenmom5]

Maybe not the best idea, but I was thinking -

 

since she already talks with your DD, have your DD thank her and your dad for you.  Something like "dad would like me to thank you both for the gift".  Simple, done, but doesn't change the contact.

 

absolutely "not the best idea".  it puts the dd in the middle - a place out of which she must be kept.

[AimeeM]

Maybe not the best idea, but I was thinking -

 

since she already talks with your DD, have your DD thank her and your dad for you.  Something like "dad would like me to thank you both for the gift".  Simple, done, but doesn't change the contact.

I appreciate the advice, but this would put Autumn in a place no child should be - the middle of an adult dispute/issue. My SM is certainly one who would take it out on her (and has in the past). I'm actually trying right now to figure out how best to further limit their contact, because I know that no matter how I handle the "gift" situation, it is going to blow up.

[bolt.]

When "you" send a gift to a person who isn't speaking to you, one of the results of that action is that you have outlaid cash without any avenue to know if/when the gift arrives, and "you" additionally forfeit any knowledge of what happens to the gift in the recipient's house/life. Too bad, so sad.

 

She needs to 'reap what she sows'. If she wants to include blind gift-sending in her new non-contact relationship with her SIL, fine. It's often a stressful thing to do, but it's her call. It doesn't make it the recipient's job to change those realities about being out of contact.

 

I wonder -- does she really know that you have placed these boundaries (and is ignoring them) or are you letting her sort-of 'discover' just what "this" looks like, what happens, and how long it's going to last through these little tests? Is there any benefit from greater clarity. Would you need to actually say something like, "I won't be returning your phone calls, and I will discard mail/email unread." (Or has that already been said?) Usually (unless the risk of verbal abuse is strong) these things should be said once -- with great clarity and specificity -- so that 'confusion' ceases to be a reason to test the limits.

[AimeeM]

When "you" send a gift to a person who isn't speaking to you, one of the results of that action is that you have outlaid cash without any avenue to know if/when the gift arrives, and "you" additionally forfeit any knowledge of what happens to the gift in the recipient's house/life. Too bad, so sad.

 

She needs to 'reap what she sows'. If she wants to include blind gift-sending in her new non-contact relationship with her SIL, fine. It's often a stressful thing to do, but it's her call. It doesn't make it the recipient's job to change those realities about being out of contact.

 

I wonder -- does she really know that you have placed these boundaries (and is ignoring them) or are you letting her sort-of 'discover' just what "this" looks like, what happens, and how long it's going to last through these little tests? Is there any benefit from greater clarity. Would you need to actually say something like, "I won't be returning your phone calls, and I will discard mail/email unread." (Or has that already been said?) Usually (unless the risk of verbal abuse is strong) these things should be said once -- with great clarity and specificity -- so that 'confusion' ceases to be a reason to test the limits.

Actually, she's the one who initiated the no-contact this time (the time before that, it was me, but this time it was her) - when she decided we were "lying" when we said dd12 was too busy to visit this summer, she blew a gasket, told me I was lying, maybe one day I would tell her the truth (oh, and added "hopefully before I die", or something to that effect). When she said she was blocking my number and deleting me off facebook, I told her she saved me the trouble (or something to that extent).

So basically, she cut contact and I let her know (before she did) that the cut off was reciprocal.

(I posted about this in my last "toxic person" thread, lol)

Should I clarify for her? I certainly will if need be.

[SailorMom]

When my sister tried this, we sent the gifts (gift cards) back "Return to Sender".  She resent them twice more, in new envelopes, etc.  Finally, we kept the gift cards as they were kinda specific, but then donated the exact same amount to Heifer Fund.  We didn't want to just waste the money, and that was the only solution we could come up with....  We never contacted her as she knew exactly what she was doing, and we felt no obligation to play her games.

[lea1]

If I didn't want to hurt my dad, I would send him an email (knowing she would see it), thanking him for the gift. I might make it a little newsy (if you communicate with your dad through email sometimes). At the end, I might tell him to thank her for us. And then I would leave it at that.

 

If you can catch your dad by phone, that would be the best way. You could thank him and tell him to say thanks to her.

[LMD]

Actually, she's the one who initiated the no-contact this time (the time before that, it was me, but this time it was her) - when she decided we were "lying" when we said dd12 was too busy to visit this summer, she blew a gasket, told me I was lying, maybe one day I would tell her the truth (oh, and added "hopefully before I die", or something to that effect). When she said she was blocking my number and deleting me off facebook, I told her she saved me the trouble (or something to that extent).

So basically, she cut contact and I let her know (before she did) that the cut off was reciprocal.

(I posted about this in my last "toxic person" thread, lol)

Should I clarify for her? I certainly will if need be.

 

I can soooooooooo relate.  My toxic person cut me off with a very dramatic letter (dot points of all the things I'd done wrong for the last 10+ years) which was sent and emailed to me.  That was a year ago.

 

Just yesterday I received gifts from said person for my child.  I have been doing what bolt said  

 

 

When "you" send a gift to a person who isn't speaking to you, one of the results of that action is that you have outlaid cash without any avenue to know if/when the gift arrives, and "you" additionally forfeit any knowledge of what happens to the gift in the recipient's house/life. Too bad, so sad.

[gardenmom5]

Actually, she's the one who initiated the no-contact this time (the time before that, it was me, but this time it was her) - when she decided we were "lying" when we said dd12 was too busy to visit this summer, she blew a gasket, told me I was lying, maybe one day I would tell her the truth (oh, and added "hopefully before I die", or something to that effect). When she said she was blocking my number and deleting me off facebook, I told her she saved me the trouble (or something to that extent).

So basically, she cut contact and I let her know (before she did) that the cut off was reciprocal.

(I posted about this in my last "toxic person" thread, lol)

Should I clarify for her? I certainly will if need be.

:nopity:   though the 'thanks for saving me the trouble' remark was kind of petty, I certainly understand where it comes from. 

 

I'd have just told her to go ahead, what ever makes her happy and ignored her.  (I did with my grandmother over something similar. she only tried it on me twice as the second time she threatened me I told her "I thought you already did". she was quite deflated.)

don't bother clarifying.  she's being a martyr and thought by throwing a melodramatic tantrum you'd feel so guilty - you'd apologize, worship at her feet, and send your dd to her.  she didn't want to cut contact, she WANTED you to cave.  you didn't.  you're doing fine.  just keep repeating that.

 

if she wants to reestablish contact - if you are willing - she should apologize for that accusation.  I would also not allow your dd any unsupervised contact with this woman - that includes phone calls.  it's on speaker with you or your dh around.  

[AimeeM]

:nopity:   though the 'thanks for saving me the trouble' remark was kind of petty, I certainly understand where it comes from. 

 

I'd have just told her to go ahead, what ever makes her happy and ignored her.  (I did with my grandmother over something similar. she only tried it on me twice as the second time she threatened me I told her "I thought you already did". she was quite deflated.)

don't bother clarifying.  she's being a martyr and thought by throwing a melodramatic tantrum you'd feel so guilty - you'd apologize, worship at her feet, and send your dd to her.  she didn't want to cut contact, she WANTED you to cave.  you didn't.  you're doing fine.  just keep repeating that.

 

if she wants to reestablish contact - if you are willing - she should apologize for that accusation.  I would also not allow your dd any unsupervised contact with this woman - that includes phone calls.  it's on speaker with you or your dh around.

She's had around three "passes" in the past two years, all over pretty heavy issues (like insulting my husband, involving our daughter, blowing up at me and insulting my intelligence... in my home... boundary issues with dd, etc), so I'm not inclined to forgive even with an apology (and she NEVER apologizes; in the past something would come up, I would feel sympathetic about a situation - like her father passing - and I would come back. My husband has pretty well put his foot down about this one, anyway, lol :p

[gardenmom5]

She's had around three "passes" in the past two years, all over pretty heavy issues (like insulting my husband, involving our daughter, blowing up at me and insulting my intelligence... in my home... boundary issues with dd, etc), so I'm not inclined to forgive even with an apology (and she NEVER apologizes; in the past something would come up, I would feel sympathetic about a situation - like her father passing - and I would come back. My husband has pretty well put his foot down about this one, anyway, lol :p

I can understand - there is a point where too many lines have been crossed. (I really wish my parents had severed contact with mgm.)  boundaries are the only thing you can do - and they need to be very firm.

she does sound like what I'm familiar with as being a personality disorder. (the only way others can interact with them is with varying degrees of boundaries.  sometimes very very hard boundaries.  not having contact is a very hard boundary.). 

 

they are always right, everyone else is an ungrateful wretch for not realizing how blessed they are by their presence. 

 

telling them to apologize for their behavior is probably more dramatic as telling the android Norman from the original star trek ep I, Mudd that you're lying when you're telling the truth and watching how he blew many fuses with the conundrum.  as requiring her to apologize if she wants further contact is melt-down major drama you will get. and no apology, because as you know, they don't. ever.    

[AimeeM]

I can understand - there is a point where too many lines have been crossed. (I really wish my parents had severed contact with mgm.)  boundaries are the only thing you can do - and they need to be very firm.

she does sound like what I'm familiar with as being a personality disorder. (the only way others can interact with them is with varying degrees of boundaries.  sometimes very very hard boundaries.  not having contact is a very hard boundary.). 

 

they are always right, everyone else is an ungrateful wretch for not realizing how blessed they are by their presence. 

 

telling them to apologize for their behavior is probably more dramatic as telling Norman from the original star trek ep I, Mudd that you're lying when you're telling the truth and watching how he blew many fuses with the conundrum.  as requiring her to apologize if she wants further contact is melt-down major drama you will get. and no apology, because as you know, they don't. ever.

Lol. This is her version of an apology - "I didn't mean for you to take it that way"... or "I'm sorry it went over your head"...

 

Oy vei.

 

Most of us are relatively sure she has a personality disorder... but I've learned over the years, especially during early adolescence, that suggesting as much (or that she see somebody about it), only makes her feel like a victim (even if the reason I suggested as much is because SHE came to me crying and asking why "nobody gets her").

 

Having contact with her, even with firm boundaries, does nothing to quell the issues - she isn't one for keeping boundaries, which is what has led us... here.

[gardenmom5]

Lol. This is her version of an apology - "I didn't mean for you to take it that way"... or "I'm sorry it went over your head"...

 

Oy vei.

 

Most of us are relatively sure she has a personality disorder... but I've learned over the years, especially during early adolescence, that suggesting as much (or that she see somebody about it), only makes her feel like a victim (even if the reason I suggested as much is because SHE came to me crying and asking why "nobody gets her").

 

Having contact with her, even with firm boundaries, does nothing to quell the issues - she isn't one for keeping boundaries, which is what has led us... here.

yep.  because they are perfect and you are an ungrateful wretch which is why you "took it that way". 

 

sounds like even though she's a step-mom, you've been dealing with her a long time.  you have my deepest condolences.

 

sometimes the only thing is to sever contact  - which is a boundary.  it's all about finding the boundary that you can maintain and they can't cross.  for her - you've determined that's no contact, hence her attempts to make contact.  you must really be frustrating her. c'est la vie. 

 

PD's do not respond to any medication.  there is one behavior therapy that has been developed that might, *might* be helpful - that would require them admitting there is a problem and cooperating with treatment, and that ain't gonna happen.  I'd bet on the snowball first.  I question whether anyone who does seek help for this even has an actual full-blown PD.   including the clinical pscyh who developed the treatment because she "had a pd." that supposedly she recognized.  that means anyone who has contact/relationship must erect boundaries - even if that boundary means there will be no contact.

[Trish]

Donate the item to charity, then send her a nice note thanking her and telling her which charity you gave it to.

 

 

[Incognito]

I appreciate the advice, but this would put Autumn in a place no child should be - the middle of an adult dispute/issue. My SM is certainly one who would take it out on her (and has in the past). I'm actually trying right now to figure out how best to further limit their contact, because I know that no matter how I handle the "gift" situation, it is going to blow up.

Well, I would say she is already in the middle, you wouldn't be putting her there by having her say thanks.

 

FWIW, if your SM really did blow up about it, wouldn't that make it easier for your DD to step back from a relationship with her/them? 

 

Horrible, but instead of you telling her what SM is like, SM gets to show her own true colors for herself.

 

I also understand that if I really thought someone would cuss out my kid for thanking them, I likely wouldn't have my kid do it.  But if I was on that poor of terms with someone, I also wouldn't have my child talking with them regularly. 

[Forget-Me-Not]

You need to just be a communication black hole.  Do whatever you wish with the gift and do not contact her. 

 

This is not an etiquette issue.  This is a family safety issue.  She is toxic to your family. 

 

Have a frank chat with  your daughter and cut off that avenue too.  Really, your whole family should be a package deal.  If one of you cuts contact, you all cut contact.