Remember that kid who was homeschooled...

[ZooRho]

But THIS mother didn't. Ever.

we don't know that, we weren't there.

[ZooRho]

meant to put a link to the RE info

http://heav.org/va-law/religious-exemption/religious-exemption-demystified/

[Catwoman]

we don't know that, we weren't there.

:iagree:

 

None of us knows what transpired in that house on a daily basis. Considering his current position, it stands to reason that the son would be emphasizing the negatives and failing to mention the positive things his parents did in their homeschool.

 

I'm not saying the mom was a great teacher; I don't think anyone has said that. We just don't know. But I think it's quite a stretch to assume that she never helped her son with his work and told him to pray about it every single time he asked her for some help.

[fairfarmhand]

we don't know that, we weren't there.

 

yup...

 

If you asked my dd about my teaching algebra, you would probably get a similar response. She conveniently "forgets" the hours I sat with her wailing, dramatic self at the table. She "forgets" throwing pencils across the room and screaming, "If you were a real teacher you'd be able to make me understand this. Why do I even have to do this stuff? It's stupid." She "forgets" the hours I spent watching Khan academy, relearning algebra so that I could teach her because, "Khan academy confuses me."

[Happy2BaMom]

:iagree:

 

None of us knows what transpired in that house on a daily basis. Considering his current position, it stands to reason that the son would be emphasizing the negatives and failing to mention the positive things his parents did in their homeschool.

 

I'm not saying the mom was a great teacher; I don't think anyone has said that. We just don't know. But I think it's quite a stretch to assume that she never helped her son with his work and told him to pray about it every single time he asked her for some help.

 

But you contradict yourself in the first paragraph. If you truly don't know what happened in his house on a daily basis, you don't know that he is emphasizing the negatives. You don't know. You're judging him because he reported some negatives. He could be telling the absolute truth. Ditto for the "quite a stretch"...how do you know? Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't.

 

I find it interesting that the young man is being judged for "betraying his family". Obviously, the preference here is for homeschooled children to only provide positive reviews about their home education experiences.

 

I didn't find him disrespectful, and I thought the second blip was fairly balanced. Some parents are not good home educators. I've seen that with my own eyes. What is so threatening about what he has done? It's an interview on NPR followed by a panel discussion.

[Catwoman]

But you contradict yourself in the first paragraph. If you truly don't know what happened in his house on a daily basis, you don't know that he is emphasizing the negatives. You don't know. You're judging him because he reported some negatives. He could be telling the absolute truth. Ditto for the "quite a stretch"...how do you know? Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't.

 

I find it interesting that the young man is being judged for "betraying his family". Obviously, the preference here is for homeschooled children to only provide positive reviews about their home education experiences.

 

I didn't find him disrespectful, and I thought the second blip was fairly balanced. Some parents are not good home educators. I've seen that with my own eyes. What is so threatening about what he has done? It's an interview on NPR followed by a panel discussion.

Actually, I don't think I contradicted myself at all. :)

[Χά�ων]

I took what she meant as where a religious parent would say Go pray about it the secular parent would say go think about it some more.

 

BOTH parents may eventually say what you also said.  I know we did in our house use all these words.  

 

 

But THIS mother didn't. Ever.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

:iagree:

 

None of us knows what transpired in that house on a daily basis. Considering his current position, it stands to reason that the son would be emphasizing the negatives and failing to mention the positive things his parents did in their homeschool.

 

I'm not saying the mom was a great teacher; I don't think anyone has said that. We just don't know. But I think it's quite a stretch to assume that she never helped her son with his work and told him to pray about it every single time he asked her for some help.

Considering someone as bright as this kid was in pre-algebra at age 17, I don't believe it is a stretch to believe the mother did next to nothing and that young man is telling the truth.

[ZooRho]

yup...

 

If you asked my dd about my teaching algebra, you would probably get a similar response. She conveniently "forgets" the hours I sat with her wailing, dramatic self at the table. She "forgets" throwing pencils across the room and screaming, "If you were a real teacher you'd be able to make me understand this. Why do I even have to do this stuff? It's stupid." She "forgets" the hours I spent watching Khan academy, relearning algebra so that I could teach her because, "Khan academy confuses me."

I swear I hope my boys don't write a Mommy Dearest book about our hsing days.

[Aelwydd]

I swear I hope my boys don't write a Mommy Dearest book about our hsing days.

Unless you frequently tell your kids to pray about how to solve math problems, I doubt they will have anything more to grumble about their education than is the usual stuff most of us say.

 

I live in a state with ZERO regulatory oversight for hs'ing. That's for everyone, religious or not. I also have a college degree and dh is finishing his.

 

I feel no compulsion to defend lazy, ignorant, or irresponsible hs'ing parents in my state. If I did so, in order to protect my own interests, I'd be no better than certain interest groups defending failing public schools.

 

I do not understand how any hsing parent who seeks a well educated child as the goal, could seriously identify with this kid's parents. They were mostly useless in helping him self-educate, they refused to facilitate a true unschooling program, and they denied him access to a public school system as an alternative.

 

I guess some folks feel the need to find excuses for these parents because they happen to educate their children under a similar regulatory exemption. Not me--they are no sort of poster child for my educational philosophy. Texas is full of poorly educated people, and some of them are the products of hsing. Instead of blaming them, I blame the people who were responsible for teaching them.

 

It's no different in this case, regardless of the nature of the exemption from oversight. Maybe if people stop seeing this as an attack on their own hsing choices, and instead as the affront it is to the ideal of a fully formed education, they would stop trying to find fault with a guy who didn't want to live out his life handicapped by the educational neglect of his parents.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, can I completely upset the discussion?

 

First, I think the woman should have homeschooled her kids in a  diligent manner.  I think everyone should, regardless of style.  I also hate that there are so many non-educating homeschoolers out there.  

 

But, this situation bugs me a little.  First, I absolutely believe teens need to take hold of their own educations.  Unless she had him tied in closet, could he not pick up a book from the library or used book store to self-teach a little?  So he didn't.  Okay.  And at 17 he went to college and got caught up in a short amount of time.  Isn't that what many public schooled students do?  Isn't that what most adult learners do?  Isn't that what they have developmental classes for?  

 

Maybe his mother sees things differently.  Maybe her goal was to give them a full childhood not filled with stuff they could learn in a year or two at high school age.  It is a BIG reason for us to homeschool.  Maybe she planned to do it about 14, having him get the basic K-7 education then use the community college for high school; but he was obnoxious as many teen boys *are* to their mothers.  And when he was being a snot, she lost her Michelle Duggar-ness and said some comment then, "I'm trying to help you (darn it!); just pray about it."  

 

The examples above of what mom should have said?  Ha!  I guess I'm a bad mom too. EVERY SINGLE DAY I say something about how I trust they can figure it out.  Sometimes it is something they should know (seriously, the "a" still says /a/ today like it has every day the last two years.  If you're saying /p/, I can't help you).  Sometimes it is something new but they could figure it out (yes, it is your first time to empty the dishwasher, but where do the cups go?).  Sometimes it is truly because I can't help.  I know nothing about drafting; but I did buy you materials so you could learn and I'm sure the answer to the question *from* the textbook is *in* the textbook.

 

Or maybe she neglected the children's educations and he's bitter.  Thankfully, it takes very little time comparatively to "catch up" and that is what he did.  I *do* think that we need to remember that we will have to answer to our children one day.  We won't be perfect, but we should be trying at least close to our best!  

[Laura Corin]

 Unless she had him tied in closet, could he not pick up a book from the library or used book store to self-teach a little?  

 

Didn't he say somewhere that he had no way  to get to the library?  That the parents didn't take him?  Where we live there is public transport, but not every teenager has the ability to move about independently.

 

L

[Aelwydd]

Didn't he say somewhere that he had no way to get to the library? That the parents didn't take him? Where we live there is public transport, but not every teenager has the ability to move about independently.

 

L

Yes, you are correct. The article made it clear his resources were mostly limited to the old textbooks at home, which he did use for self study.

 

The problem was he couldn't get to a library often or easily since he had to rely in a friend to drive him. He pursued community college to help him fill in the huge gaps in his education left by his parents.

 

Bottom line: he made various attempts to remedy the lack in his education including seeking public school as an alternative. His parents either passively denied him by failing to teach or procure necessary resources, or the actively denied him by blocking his opportunity for attending public school.

 

Again, I don't understand the prejudice that assumes the parents were benevolent and their son the one who is negligent.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rebekah,

 

A couple things:  

 

1) where there is a will, there is a way.  I can think of multiple ways he could have gotten more materials if he really wanted to.

2) I simply don't think we know for sure his parents were particularly negligent.

3) I was clear more than once that I have an issue with it if they were.

 

[DarlaS]

Anyway, I'm trying to wrap my mind around a homeschooling mom who has a degree from UVA and neglects to teach her son even pre-algebra.  I understand that she is the mother of 12 and has a full plate, but couldn't she have found some kind of help for him?  Videos? A tutor?  An outside class?  Were they dirt poor?  Did the mother suffer from depression or was something else going on?  I don't get it.

 

I am not a college graduate and I can't teach calculus.  One of my sons who is very good at math did algebra and geometry at home, and then took math (and some other subjects) at the community college for two years, finishing Calc II by the time he graduated from high school.  I think he had 26 college credits by then.

 

I just don't understand.  There must be more to the story.

Maybe it was more about isolation? I do wonder if their being "very religious" meant a good bit of restrictions on access to things like the internet (khan academy etc), various computer based programs like Teaching Textbooks. Maybe he was trying to struggle through something like Abeka on his own. Were they rural? Because if they were, when he was too young to drive, getting to a library could even have been problematic.

 

My oldest son taught himself mathematics and has his A.S. degree in math. He had access to whatever he needed and used it. (Wish his siblings were half as self-directed :-/ )

[DawnM]

I can't listen then.

 

Nope, just can't do it.

 

I talk to my kids yearly about school and they know that they have the choice. They continue to choose home (although I think they just like being HOME, not homeSCHOOLED most of the time!)

 

They can sit on a therapist's couch all they want but they can never blame me for making them stay home.

 

 

 

 

I just listened to the recording. Yuck. He was very critical of his homeschooling experience, and of his parent's (lack of) ability to give him the quality education that he apparently deserved.  :glare: He has quite a bit of animosity toward his parents (and their religious beliefs) and said he went public for his sibling's sake...

[Aelwydd]

Rebekah,

 

A couple things:

 

1) where there is a will, there is a way. I can think of multiple ways he could have gotten more materials if he really wanted to.

2) I simply don't think we know for sure his parents were particularly negligent.

3) I was clear more than once that I have an issue with it if they were.

Pamela, you need to read the article in its entirety. Your "where there's a will" statement is partcularly ironic, as if he hadn't had such determination, he would never have made it to college. As for your other statements,even his father conceded at one point in the article that his son may not have received what he needed educationally from them.

 

Again read it. If you already have, read it again. There is no way you or anyone else can defend to me a situation where a parent refuses to teach or tutor, denies alternatives, and then blames the child. That's repulsive.

 

Gotta go, it's time to give my 10 yo a second grade reader and tell him it's up to him to learn how to write a thesis paper from that. And also to pray about his fractions worksheet. If he complains...too bad. The library is only a 4 mile hike along 183. He just needs to show some initiative.

[momma2three]

Rebekah,

 

A couple things:  

 

1) where there is a will, there is a way.  I can think of multiple ways he could have gotten more materials if he really wanted to.

2) I simply don't think we know for sure his parents were particularly negligent.

3) I was clear more than once that I have an issue with it if they were.

 

Did you read the article?

[Χά�ων]

 

The examples above of what mom should have said?  Ha!  I guess I'm a bad mom too. EVERY SINGLE DAY I say something about how I trust they can figure it out.  Sometimes it is something they should know (seriously, the "a" still says /a/ today like it has every day the last two years.  If you're saying /p/, I can't help you).

 

 

Hmm you are right, "a" still says /a/ my severely dyslexic son has been taught that and more about reading. He is surrounded by a house of books and if he really wanted to learn how to read then by golly he can teach himself since he knows the basics of the English language. If he cannot then he should pull himself up by the bootstraps and hike down a very dangerous road to get to the library in town. Assuming he isn't killed, it should only take him 3 or 4 hours and if he doesn't like that he can get a job when he is 14. There is plenty of opportunity in the very rural community for a child who cannot drive to earn money. I am sure on of our three neighbors can hire him for something and I am sure he will not have a problem walking past the aggressive dog of the one neighbor that tried to attack me. Shouldn't be a problem at all and when he saves up enough money he pay a taxi to go from a very rural area to the nearest community college, 228 miles away each day. It should only cost him just over a hundred dollars each way. That is very affordable for a young person with no financial obligations in life. Yep, that seems reasonable.

[Sahamamama]

I've seen convention speakers suggest parents "pray about it" and tell their children to do the same for every single educational problem they have, with no other additional advice.  I am not surprised at all to hear about a parent offering prayer instead of instruction.  At the same time, I hope and expect it doesn't happen in every religious home. We are Christian, but our schooltime prayers usually involve me muttering something under my breath about God giving me the patience not to need to hide in the bathroom while dinner is cooking.

 

Mine is usually something like this:

 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh God, please help me today to have patience with these precious, loud, and hard-working children. Please help me to not give up on homeschooling them. Help me today to not put them on the bus as it so temptingly rolls past our house. Teach them to work diligently and to cooperate with their old, exhausted mother, who is only one person and can't answer six questions at once while explaining long division with remainders. In Jesus' name, Amen.

[fairfarmhand]

Yes, you are correct. The article made it clear his resources were mostly limited to the old textbooks at home, which he did use for self study.

 

The problem was he couldn't get to a library often or easily since he had to rely in a friend to drive him. He pursued community college to help him fill in the huge gaps in his education left by his parents.

 

Bottom line: he made various attempts to remedy the lack in his education including seeking public school as an alternative. His parents either passively denied him by failing to teach or procure necessary resources, or the actively denied him by blocking his opportunity for attending public school.

 

Again, I don't understand the prejudice that assumes the parents were benevolent and their son the one who is negligent.

 

 

Didn't he say somewhere that he had no way  to get to the library?  That the parents didn't take him?  Where we live there is public transport, but not every teenager has the ability to move about independently.

 

L

Small fact check...He lived within walking distance of the library. Here;'s the transcript

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=209512311

 

I still don't understand the need for religious exemption. It seems that parents can say, "We are so religious that we don't want anyone checking up on us at all.  It may be against my religion for my child to perform at least as well as half of the publicly schooled kids." The other provision seems perfectly acceptable and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION to make sure that the children of the state are educated.

[Danestress]

I still don't understand the need for religious exemption. It seems that parents can say, "We are so religious that we don't want anyone checking up on us at all. It may be against my religion for my child to perform at least as well as half of the publicly schooled kids." .

We have no real 'checking up on' system in my state for any homeschoolers at all. I like it that way and would express my views on that publically.

 

I think this guy is entitled to his opinion and entitled to express it and tell his story. I find it healthy and awesome to hear political debate. I find it sort of sad that people don't believe his story because they don't want to. I also find it hard to keep reading that (my own words obviously) a homeschool kid isn't really 'entitled' to a basic education, and that if he's not getting it, it is his own fault and he should pick up the slack for negligent parents even as a young kid. I think there is a sort of 'blame the victim' thing going on.

 

In my opinion, kids are entitled to an education that is rigorous for their own ability level. They are entitled to complain when they don't get that - as happens in both homeschool and regular school. And they are entitled to tell their stories without caring if it reveals negative things about their schools, teachers, or parents. Naturally those teachers and parents are also entitled to respond.

[FaithManor]

DH and I rather regularly have couch suffers here - older teens floundering in life usually as a
combination of poor choices, poor parenting, and limited resources though a couple have come from
donwright hideous, abusive homes. I can tell you from this experience that for every one that truly could
have pulled up the boot straps and made it happen for them, there are three more that absolutely did not
have resources.

If you have never been a part of religious sect or survived a deliberately, neglectful/abusive home and
especially one in more remote location, then you cannot appreciate the depth to which the parents can go
to isolate their child. It is an eye opener. We don't have a library that carries textbooks within 30
miles of us. We do not have public transportation. Most neighbors will not give a ride to a teenage if
this would be contrary to the parents' wishes. No one is hiring the local teens. It's even hard to get
a two hour babysitting job...many families aren't going out because money is tight. I have had couch
surfers whose parents refused to have the Internet in their house or carried the routed cable in their
pocket so thenkids could not have access.

In our area, if a parent is determined to isolate a teenage to prevent them from leaving the religion by
virtue of promoting ignorance and preventing them from attaining the skills necessary to move beyond the
strict parameters of the sect, it is actually fairly easy to do so. In our area, the Amish are the primary
group of offenders, but we've seen some others as well. To be honest, amongst ATI families we see
extraordinary measures taken to prevent teens from developing independence, critical thinking skills, and gaining a basic education as these things are seennas the roadbto hell. Having been inculcated with the mistaken belief that this is a life or death spiritual struggle for their child's soul, the level of manipulation and solitary confinement that these parents will sink to is hair raising.

I don't know what went on in this particular home. Nothing in these articles conveys the reality of day
to day life. He was able to find the resources to pull his life together, get a meaningful education,
and move on. I applaud him for that. Unfortunately, there are teens out there that are terribly neglected
by their parents and are too isolated to do very much about it. He is on many levels like some of our
precious couch suffers who once they experienced some healing, received remediation, developed a plan,
and moved on, have deep pain for the siblings they left behind and if possible would throw their parents
"under the bus" if it meant they could spare their siblings some of what they went through. Some of our
fledglings have loved their parents very, very much but that love has not exceeded their profound concern
for little brothers and sisters.

So much depends on the perspective of those looking in...if you believe that an education is a
fundamental right of children that trumps a parent's religious right, then you feel strongly the
inherent dangers in unregulated homeschooling. If you do not see education as a right similar to
those guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, then while you might think the parents made bad choices, you do not see it as neglect, abuse, or deprivation.

Personally, I'm very moderate...very libertarian. My rights as as a citizen only extend so far as the next person. I do not get to exercise my rights by running rough shod over someone else's. In my book, my kids are "someone else". Therefore, though as a Jesus follower, I desire that they desire to remain in the faith, I cannot in good conscience limit their education or manipulate it in such manner that it prevents them from or more makes it exceedingly difficult to make a different choice.

I've said this before, a parent's right to believe does not trump a child's right to live. Since any
measure of successful living these days requires more than a 5th or 6th grade limited education, then
I believe a true high school level education or if L.D.'s are evident, an education commensurate with
the child's neurological capabilities, is a right. Therefore, I also personally believe that my local PS
is guilty of abuse and neglect.

That said, I doubt that I can get behind much in the way of legislative action because I don't believe
that the bobble heads reigning in my state that continue to make such insane educational choices for
the taxpayers schools have any solutions to offer for what goes on in homeschools that operate as such
in name only.

My current very badly, educationally and emotionally neglected couch surfer, remediated and healed, is moving on to tech school and independent living. I am so thrilled for her. She over heard dh and I say we'd like to move in a few years. "But where will my little sister land when she can't take it any more?"

My response, "With you! You are going to be great! And she is going to love you very much for the
guideance and help you will provide. You've experienced it first hand and I predict you will be a better mentor than I."

That's my message to this young man. The government can't fix your parents, your former home, or likely
prevent your siblings from that which has affected you so deeply...whatever that is because no one else
will ever known the real truth of the matter. But you have BTDT and you can help them when they are
old enough to make the same choice. Being their safety net, yes, it kind of stinks because you
shouldn't have to be, but it's a great gift to give them."

I guess I'm feeling rather melancholy today about this being our last week with our couch girl. I've
grown rather attached and this story reminds me of her struggles to overcome.

 

ETA: I'm never posting from a kindle again! I couldn't type properly and had to wait to edit this until ds finished his computer programming assignment.

[momma2three]

Small fact check...He lived within walking distance of the library. Here;'s the transcript

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=209512311

 

I still don't understand the need for religious exemption. It seems that parents can say, "We are so religious that we don't want anyone checking up on us at all.  It may be against my religion for my child to perform at least as well as half of the publicly schooled kids." The other provision seems perfectly acceptable and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION to make sure that the children of the state are educated.

 

This topic was being discussed on another  message board I'm on (not a homeschooling one), and someone said that this law is basically for Amish/Mennonite families who want to stop schooling in 8th grade.

[fairfarmhand]

This topic was being discussed on another  message board I'm on (not a homeschooling one), and someone said that this law is basically for Amish/Mennonite families who want to stop schooling in 8th grade.

ahhh...

[Aelwydd]

Small fact check...He lived within walking distance of the library. Here;'s the transcript

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=209512311

 

I still don't understand the need for religious exemption. It seems that parents can say, "We are so religious that we don't want anyone checking up on us at all. It may be against my religion for my child to perform at least as well as half of the publicly schooled kids." The other provision seems perfectly acceptable and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION to make sure that the children of the state are educated.

Thanks. The interview contradicts the original story on that point; in it, he said he relied on someone driving him. The interview did not exactly say he walked though; he said the library was "very close." We live very close to a couple if libraries, but it is not safe to walk to any of them. Too many highways.