help me be realistic....need to decide something

[ktgrok]

My son will be 14 and in 8th this coming year. Some fellow homeschoolers in the area are doing a Biology lab as a co-op, to go along with her daughter's virtual school biology class. The class is highschool level, and she is prepping her daughter to take the end of course exam our state requires for high school biology credit. My thought was to put my son in that co-op, and also do Biology with him, using the Miller Levine book, and also take the test with the idea that if he passes that's one less high school class he needs. But...SHOULD I be pushing like that? He's smart, but not a school loving kid. Should i give him an easier, middle school level text and course and just let highschool be highschool and middle school be middle school? How do you decide these kinds of things?

[8filltheheart]

Is the curriculum you have listed in your siggie correct?   If so, I would hold off and let middle school be middle school and high school be high school.   If he is taking pre-alg this yr, there is no need to rush forward to high school science b/c it will be easier to deal with those levels of science once he has completed alg.  

 

FWIW, I have really advanced science/math kids.   Only 1 of them has a high school credit for science in middle school (and he was taking pre-cal by 9th grade).   Even with really strong students, I do not see a need to push forward to high school level science at a younger age.   There are so many fascinating topics out there to study and definitely never enough time to explore them all.   I would let him explore multiple science topics that really interest him this yr.

[ktgrok]

Thanks...that helps. I was pushing to do a highschool level American History class, and DH told me, correctly, that I was more doing it for my pride than his education. I think this may be similar. REALLY trying to learn "much not many" and to slow down and do well, rather than push ahead. So..now I need a different science program, lol!

[ktgrok]

ugh...now to figure out WHAT science. He's interested in doing Biology or Life science...but is transferring to the local public school for 9th grade. They start out with Honors Chemistry, but have physical science as a prerequisite. We did Noeo Physics last year, so I hate to repeat a lot of that by doing an official physical science class this year. But, I don't want him to not be able to get in Honors Chem. I do have his standardized test scores that show he scored in the 99th percentile in Science on the Stanford 10 and ITBS, so I'm thinking I could talk them into letting him be in Chemistry no matter what....I asked a guidance counselor and she thought it would be no problem. So..yeah...still not sure.

 

Life Science, or Phyiscal Science, or a cool book I found that did some physical but also included aerospace stuff...I don't know.

[JudoMom]

The class is just a lab, right?  Why can't you teach him biology at home, do the lab co-op, and decide on the test at the end of the year?  If he's interested in biology, and you have a lab opportunity, I would take it.

[ktgrok]

The class is just a lab, right?  Why can't you teach him biology at home, do the lab co-op, and decide on the test at the end of the year?  If he's interested in biology, and you have a lab opportunity, I would take it.

Yes, but I need to find something to use to teach Biology at home...the text I was looking at is a 10th grade highschool text.

[8filltheheart]

ugh...now to figure out WHAT science. He's interested in doing Biology or Life science...but is transferring to the local public school for 9th grade. They start out with Honors Chemistry, but have physical science as a prerequisite. We did Noeo Physics last year, so I hate to repeat a lot of that by doing an official physical science class this year. But, I don't want him to not be able to get in Honors Chem. I do have his standardized test scores that show he scored in the 99th percentile in Science on the Stanford 10 and ITBS, so I'm thinking I could talk them into letting him be in Chemistry no matter what....I asked a guidance counselor and she thought it would be no problem. So..yeah...still not sure.

 

Life Science, or Phyiscal Science, or a cool book I found that did some physical but also included aerospace stuff...I don't know.

 

Is alg not a pre-req for honors chem?   I would be surprised if a chem course didn't have alg as a pre-req. 

 

[ktgrok]

Yes, it is, but he is taking Algebra in 8th, so that shouldn't be a problem.

[Hunter]

Group studies have a way of not turning out like I'd expect them too. I've learned never to change my plans to join up with someone else. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. Because I always end out doing something I don't want to do, without even the group support.

[Farrar]

Is biology typically a 9th grade class in your state?  And is the exam considered rigorous or easy?  What does your son think?  I guess it would really depend on those factors if it was my kids.

[ktgrok]

Is biology typically a 9th grade class in your state?  And is the exam considered rigorous or easy?  What does your son think?  I guess it would really depend on those factors if it was my kids.

It is an 11th or 10th grade class...they do chemistry first, then biology.

 

"regular" sequence is 9th Physical Science, 10th Chem, 11th Bio

"honors" track is 8th Physical, 9th Honors Chem, 10th AP Bio

 

The test if pretty rigorous.

[8filltheheart]

Yes, it is, but he is taking Algebra in 8th, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Ok, then your siggie is not updated. ;)

 

If they are doing chem prior to bio, they could be a more biochem course. If so, I would recommend chem first.

[regentrude]

It is an 11th or 10th grade class...they do chemistry first, then biology.

 

 

 

In that case, I would not recommend that he take the course, because a biology course for students who had previously taken chemistry is likely to contain quite a bit of biochemistry. Now, is it possible without chem? Of course, for a motivated, academically ambitious student. Your description of your son, however, did not sound as if he was this kind of kid.

 

If it was a 9th grade, first high school science, class, I'd say go for it - the one year really does not make a difference.

[katilac]

Group studies have a way of not turning out like I'd expect them too. I've learned never to change my plans to join up with someone else. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. Because I always end out doing something I don't want to do, without even the group support.

This, a million times.

 

OP, I would not do the bio this year, particularly b/c it's a 10th or 11th course for your school (not even 9th), and, as others have noted, the fact that they do chem first surely affects the content of the class. And if he's going to high school anyway, I *really* don't see the point! Lab sciences are typically a struggle for all but the most STEM oriented (and possibly affluent, lol) families. I definitely would not jump though hoops to get one credit out of the way for a non-school-loving kid who is headed off to school in a year.

[ktgrok]

Ok, you've convinced me!

 

So what do I do instead????

 

hmm....?

[ktgrok]

Ok, you've convinced me!

 

So what do I do instead????

 

hmm....?

 

Maybe do a General Science year, with some bio, some earth/space, and some chemistry? (we did physic last year and covered light/magnetism/electricy/movement/etc)

[Mom22ns]

I would do a Physical Science or ICP. The kids he will be taking Chemistry with will have had a semester of Chemistry in 8th grade (assuming they do half physics half chem like most physical science classes). If he goes in to Honors Chem without that, it will be much harder for him.

 

 

[ktgrok]

What's ICP?

[ktgrok]

Ok...so a thought. What if I bought an older copy of Holt Science and Technology Physical Science and did the Chemistry and Earth Science stuff, skipped the Physics stuff we covered last year, and then did some of the Holt Science and Technology Life Science book as well, for fun?

[Mom22ns]

What's ICP?

 

Integrated Chemistry and Physics. It is the new name for Physical Science :).

 

The Holt idea sounds good. I used this book with both my kids in 8th grade. I never made it to any Earth Science in it, but you could do Chem and Earth Science since he's done with Physics.

[ktgrok]

OOH....how about Ellen McHenry's the Elements, then Cells, and maybe the Brain? At least Elements and Cells, for sure, plus our random stuff we do anyway, documentaries, books, etc.

[PeterPan]

I'd find out what physical science text they use, make sure you've covered the equivalent, and then do ANYTHING you want.  

[Sahamamama]

Ok...so a thought. What if I bought an older copy of Holt Science and Technology Physical Science and did the Chemistry and Earth Science stuff, skipped the Physics stuff we covered last year, and then did some of the Holt Science and Technology Life Science book as well, for fun?

 

Or...

 

Quarter 1 = Study Earth Science (as a change of pace from last year) [9 weeks]

Quarter 2 = Study Chemistry (as an introduction to the content & vocabulary he'll have next year in PS Honors Chem) [9 weeks] 

Quarter 3 = Review Physics (to make it solid) [9 weeks]

Quarter 4 = Finish up with one other topic (technology; electronics; robotics) [9 weeks]

[ktgrok]

 

Ok, thinking we will do a semester of "Physical Science" and a semester of "Life Science".

 

Probably use The Elements to cover chemistry, and then a short, easy course I found that does physical science, but includes some stuff on Rocketry. We will then use Seton's Life Science stuff or go back to McHenry and do The Cell, and either Botany or the Brain. That should give a good mix of stuff...keep him happy, but make sure he has the terminology and such for Chemistry in 9th, and a bit of background before diving into AP Bio in 10th.

[Chris in VA]

Ymmv, but we used the Elements in fourth grade...

[ktgrok]

Ymmv, but we used the Elements in fourth grade...

I've heard it covers a large age range...I don't want to do an indepth thing on chemistry, as he would then be bored doing it again next year. Just an overview so he has the basics before taking it next year....hoping this will do that?

[PeterPan]

I've heard it covers a large age range...I don't want to do an indepth thing on chemistry, as he would then be bored doing it again next year. Just an overview so he has the basics before taking it next year....hoping this will do that?

 

Not even close.  You want to find out what physical science text they're using and see just how much math and whatnot is in it.  There's a HUGE spread in texts.  Could be anything from light to so strong it makes your hair curl.  You want him on equal footing (or better) when he goes into the chem class.  If they do a very strong ICP, then that chem class might assume that kind of foundation.

[ktgrok]

ok..sigh. will do. Oh Elizabeth, I love you and hate you!

 

Now to email the school to try to figure out what text they use.

[ktgrok]

Ugh..so update.

 

I double checked the local highschool website. It seems that Honors Chem now requires a prereq of not just Algebra 1, but also Geometry. I don't remember there being Geometry in Chemistry, but Chemistry is my weakest science, so whatever. They list as an alternate for the Scholars Academy kids AP Environmental Science for 9th. Ok, fine. He'd probably enjoy that anyway. Except, if you go to the main science page it lists Biology, with a B or better, as a prerequisite for that class! And 8th graders in our area do NOT take Biology in 8th grade, they take Physical Science. So...um...what the heck? He will take Algebra 1 in 8th, so according to this can't take Chemistry in 9th, and can't take AP Environmental Science because he hasn't had highschool Biology yet...but it is listed in 9th grade, so none of them have taken Biology yet.

 

I'm completely confused now. I emailed every science teacher listed, but given that teachers are still out for summer I have little expectation of getting a call. Going to email the head of the Scholars Academy next, see if that works. I've talked to that person before, but that was when school was in session.

[ktgrok]

and ANOTHER update....just got an emailed response from the head of the Scholars Academy at the school. The webpage is wrong. No AP Environmental Science, and the only math prerequisite for Chemistry is Algebra 1. So..back to breathing again, lol!

[8filltheheart]

FWIW,  here are a couple of my random thoughts.   The chemistry course is going to be taught as introductory chem course.   It is not going to assume prior chemistry knowledge.   All high school intro to chem textbooks (as in non-AP textbooks) are going to start at the "beginning."  Whether or not your particular child can keep up the pace of information that is new w/o previously having memorized it/encountered it.....that is a different question.   For example, if students memorized the periodic table for some reason in earlier yrs and the teacher wants them to memorize the periodic table.....could your student manage to do it in the same time frame as other students that previously memorized it?  I know my kids can.   Those are not huge hurdles for them.   For other students, it might be.   (Fwiw, college level introductory courses also.....start at the "beginning."  It is why you can often adapt non-major college level texts quite easily for a high school introductory course.  My kids have jumped into college level science courses w/o any high school equivalent before.)

 

Physical science is not a pre-req for chemistry.   General science is not a pre-req for physical science.  So.....I would not freak out about what you use for science this yr.   Pick a course that you think your student will use successfully, will introduce him to material you believe he needs, and will provide him with the skills for learning from a textbook/dealing with science vocab, and taking science tests since he will be jumping into an honors school classroom.   And, then, move forward.     

 

[PeterPan]

Katie, did you find out what *texts* they're using?  It's not the chem that's going to get him but the math in the chem.  (just being blunt)  

[8filltheheart]

Katie, did you find out what *texts* they're using? It's not the chem that's going to get him but the math in the chem. (just being blunt)

What math exactly???

[ktgrok]

Katie, did you find out what *texts* they're using?  It's not the chem that's going to get him but the math in the chem.  (just being blunt)

I have attempted to find out, still waiting to hear back. He will have the appropriate math prerequisite, so hopefully that will be fine. Oh, and the website no longer mentions Physical Science as a prereq, just the math. Go figure.

[regentrude]

What math exactly???

 

Students typically tend to have difficulties in stoichiometry because they have not understood ratios and proportions - stoichiometry, and also unit conversions, is really nothing else. These two fields seem to be large stumbling  blocks (which is why Dr. Cardulla in the TC lectures spends such an extraordinary amount of time on something that is conceptually simple.)

The portion of students who struggle with unit conversions is staggering, even though it really only involves prealgebra. But apparently, many have never understood how ratios work and are trying to get by by memorizing procedures. Which makes them end up with ratios backwards, units not canceling, factors in the wrong spot.

[8filltheheart]

Students typically tend to have difficulties in stoichiometry because they have not understood ratios and proportions - stoichiometry, and also unit conversions, is really nothing else. These two fields seem to be large stumbling blocks (which is why Dr. Cardulla in the TC lectures spends such an extraordinary amount of time on something that is conceptually simple.)

The portion of students who struggle with unit conversions is staggering, even though it really only involves prealgebra. But apparently, many have never understood how ratios work and are trying to get by by memorizing procedures. Which makes them end up with ratios backwards, units not canceling, factors in the wrong spot.

I think you misunderstood my question to OE. It was not the math in chemistry that I was asking about, but what math that she was suggesting would be covered in a physical science course that would make using a specific physical science text make or break success in an intro chem class.

 

Strong math skills are going to matter. I do not believe that using the same physical science text as a pre-req does.

 

Bc, yes, I definitely agree with your post.

[PeterPan]

I have attempted to find out, still waiting to hear back. He will have the appropriate math prerequisite, so hopefully that will be fine. Oh, and the website no longer mentions Physical Science as a prereq, just the math. Go figure.

 

Well I can drag out the TT Alg. 1 book and look at it (since dd isn't quite through and paused for the summer), but I doubt they'll do a plug nickel worth of unit conversions in TT.  Hopefully I'm wrong.  I spent all of the BJU physical science walking her through the math for the labs.  BJU assumes concurrent algebra 1 and having completed pre-algebra.  It's just that their pre-algebra is MUCH more rigorous.  So once you say you're looking at an honors class, you've really got to find the texts and see what they're doing. He may end up learning on the fly to fill in some holes.

 

Btw, I think there's also just some maturity necessary to get used to the idea of using math in science, which might be why they were saying to complete geometry.  Ladies here on the boards have said geometry brings a big jump in maturity in their kids.  I'm making a move to get it started this year, simply because I want to see that happen.  Anyways, a dc who has already done geometry is then doing algebra 2, another maturity step.  I just remember going into AP chem (with no physical science and no regular chem) and being sort of bemuddled until it finally clicked in my mind how easy it was (like Regentrude is describing).  It surprises me that even though dd gets the math it still doesn't click, if that makes sense.  

 

It's just an area to watch.  TT algebra 1 is not honors and not going to be equivalent to what some schools are doing in algebra 1.  

[regentrude]

I think you misunderstood my question to OE. It was not the math in chemistry that I was asking about, but what math that she was suggesting would be covered in a physical science course that would make using a specific physical science text make or break success in an intro chem class.

 

Strong math skills are going to matter. I do not believe that using the same physical science text as a pre-req does.

 

 

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.

Yes, I do not see why one should need any physical science before chemistry if the math course was solid. If a student really understood ratios in math, he should get unit conversions right off the bat.

[8filltheheart]

Well I can drag out the TT Alg. 1 book and look at it (since dd isn't quite through and paused for the summer), but I doubt they'll do a plug nickel worth of unit conversions in TT. Hopefully I'm wrong. I spent all of the BJU physical science walking her through the math for the labs. BJU assumes concurrent algebra 1 and having completed pre-algebra. It's just that their pre-algebra is MUCH more rigorous. So once you say you're looking at an honors class, you've really got to find the texts and see what they're doing. He may end up learning on the fly to fill in some holes.

That is a math issue, not a physical science issue. I would never use TT, so I can't comment on that aspect. If TT does not cover all the math concepts mentioned in Regentrude's post, supplementing math would definitely be a good idea. I would also be concerned that they may not accept his alg class as meeting the pre-req.

[MyLittleWonders]

Chiming in late here, but what about this IPC text from Kolbe? (It's the first course/option - I can't get it to open on it's own page.) At least right now, I plan on doing it with ds12 in 9th grade in prep for a bio/chem/physics 10th/11th/12th progression (not sure about honors/AP/whatnot; he's not a STEM oriented kid). 

[ktgrok]

Chiming in late here, but what about this IPC text from Kolbe? (It's the first course/option - I can't get it to open on it's own page.) At least right now, I plan on doing it with ds12 in 9th grade in prep for a bio/chem/physics 10th/11th/12th progression (not sure about honors/AP/whatnot; he's not a STEM oriented kid).

I actually just bought that, used on Amazon. Going to use pieces of it, plus some other stuff...waiting till everything gets here to see what I want to use exactly.