Interesting article on high school to college transition

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This article from the Washington Post caught my eye. Graduates from low-performing D.C. schools face tough college road

 

In particular this section struck me:

 

Some D.C. neighborhood schools offer more rigorous courses that better prepare their students for higher education. Seth Brown took 11 AP classes on his way to becoming the 2010 valedictorian at Wilson High in Northwest Washington.

 

That meant he entered Dartmouth College with credit for at least five courses under his belt. Still, he was overwhelmed during his first semester at the New Hampshire Ivy League school because he was assigned two five-page writing assignments — longer than any assignments he’d completed in high school, he said.

 

“It was the most daunting task,†said Brown, a rising senior at Dartmouth. “I didn’t even know where to start.â€

 

Students almost universally said writing is a significant challenge when they get to college. Darryl Robinson, a Georgetown student and 2011 graduate of Cesar Chavez, a D.C. charter school, said it was his first college writing assignment that taught him how much he had to learn.

Asked to analyze a memoir, Robinson wrote a simple plot summary. He hadn’t known how to develop an argument and back it up. His paper received a D- minus, as he recalled in an opinion piece he wrote for The Washington Post last year.

 

“Other Georgetown freshmen from better schools had been trained to form original, concise thoughts within a breath, to focus less on remembering every piece of information,†Robinson wrote. “My former teachers simply did not push me to think past a basic level, to apply concepts, to move beyond memorizing facts and figures.â€

 

 

For those of you who are wondering if all the effort of homeschooling high school matters, I think it does. I think it can be one of the best ways to prep your kids for the high demands and self-motivation they will need to display in college. I don't like resting on the school bashing bandwagon, because I think it's too easy for me to excuse my own weaknesses. But the grass isn't always greener over in the brick and mortar schools. (And how did a kid take 11 AP courses and never write a 5 page paper? I had to write longer papers in non-AP honors courses back in the dark ages. But that's a different thread.)

[Jane in NC]

Perhaps these students' experiences reflect a reason that colleges are limiting credits given for AP. In fact, I glanced over at Dartmouth's website where I read

Changes to AP/IB credit policy for the Class of 2018

Beginning with the entering Class of 2018, Dartmouth will no longer grant course credit for AP or IB examinations. Dartmouth will continue to offer exemptions and placement in some subject areas. This policy change will not take effect until the fall of 2014, and it will not impact current applicants to Dartmouth who intend to enroll in the fall of 2013.

[regentrude]

11 APs and overwhelmed by two five page papers????

Something has to be very wrong there.

 

I think, however, that the lamented lack of critical thinking skills and original thought can not be blamed on schools alone. First and foremost, critical thinking is developed in the home, even in non-homeschooling families, beginning from an early age, through a family culture that encourages discussions and argumentation. If students are missing out on this background, it is a disadvantage that schools can not compensate for.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

11 APs and overwhelmed by two five page papers????

Something has to be very wrong there.

 

I think, however, that the lamented lack of critical thinking skills and original thought can not be blamed on schools alone. First and foremost, critical thinking is developed in the home, even in non-homeschooling families, beginning from an early age, through a family culture that encourages discussions and argumentation. If students are missing out on this background, it is a disadvantage that schools can not compensate for.

 

:iagree: I very much agree that critical thinking and an interest and dedication to learning (not to mention a love of learning) is something that is fostered outside of school hours. The kids profiled in the article are from DC schools, which doesn't prepare them well.

[Luckymama]

But see, that hurts the kids that DID bust their behinds to learn, analyze, expand upon, and make connections between the AP course material. Dd18 wrote SO much this year in her AP Lit class. Sheesh.

 

I didn't read the whole linked article. Did it mention the scores that student w 11 APs received? I "hear" of many kids taking many APs, receiving As in the courses but only scoring 1s and 2s! That in no way compares to my son who took a total of 9 APs, graduated in the top 1% of his extremely competitive and well-regarded school, and received 4s and 5s on all of his AP exams.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

But see, that hurts the kids that DID bust their behinds to learn, analyze, expand upon, and make connections between the AP course material. Dd18 wrote SO much this year in her AP Lit class. Sheesh.

 

I didn't read the whole linked article. Did it mention the scores that student w 11 APs received? I "hear" of many kids taking many APs, receiving As in the courses but only scoring 1s and 2s! That in no way compares to my son who took a total of 9 APs, graduated in the top 1% of his extremely competitive and well-regarded school, and received 4s and 5s on all of his AP exams.

 

No the snipped section was the only reference to AP courses. It doesn't give his scores or which courses he took. And if a class was focused on AP exam prep, I could see how they wouldn't spend much time on long papers. That's not a skill rewarded on the exams, where if there is a writing component, it is an essay that is rather short or specific examples to answer a question. I'm getting ready to do government next year and I have to keep reminding myself of how short and specific the free response responses are.

 

What irritates me a bit is that these kids, underprepared as they are, were accepted to schools like Georgetown. It's possible that at a lower tiered, lower stress state school they would have started out more in the thick of the student body average. I'm growing concerned that some students are plucked up by selective schools because they check a diversity box for admissions. Then the student is tossed into the deep end and may or may not get through their degree. I'm not sure how much some of these kids will even know how to ask for help. (That's hard enough for students who are coming out of a solid high school environment.) And of course debt for courses you failed is still debt; debt for a degree that you didn't finish follows you around.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So for AP he just regurgitated what he was told to think and do? There was no literary analysis, no deeper thought than reading x # of pages? I thought the classes had to be approved. Did they not include a term paper?

 

Now the AP bubble is bursting. Sigh.

 

I think it may or may not be an issue with the AP courses. College Board approves a syllabus. They don't control how much is completed by the student or how prepared the students are. (In fact, CB has resisted the idea of pre-requisite courses for AP since they might act to prevent interested students from enrolling.)

 

The schools in DC are incredibly challenged. Keep in mind that this was in the Washington Post, essentially as a local news piece. Part of the thrust of the article is that these students are the top of their class and yet they are ill prepared for the competitive college environments they find themselves in.

[regentrude]

What irritates me a bit is that these kids, underprepared as they are, were accepted to schools like Georgetown. It's possible that at a lower tiered, lower stress state school they would have started out more in the thick of the student body average. I'm growing concerned that some students are plucked up by selective schools because they check a diversity box for admissions. Then the student is tossed into the deep end and may or may not get through their degree. I'm not sure how much some of these kids will even know how to ask for help. (That's hard enough for students who are coming out of a solid high school environment.) And of course debt for courses you failed is still debt; debt for a degree that you didn't finish follows you around.

 

This is one of the arguments against affirmative action. Admitting underprepared students based on race into colleges where they are unable to compete with the other students who actually had the performance stats to get in causes increased dropout and low graduation rates.

 

But that gets us into politics which we are not allowed to discuss here.

[Laura Corin]

I was talking to a university lecturer (junior professor in US terms) the other day, and she was saying that some of the most prestigious universities here are trying to look harder at the schools that pupils come from and therefore the amount of achievement that a 'B' at one school represents, vs. an 'A' at another school. She says that this is backfiring because the pupils from the less good schools are indeed poorly prepared for university, and even with extra support are more likely to drop out. Those students then end up with a debt, no degree and a lot of explaining to do to future employers.

 

L

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

This is one of the arguments against affirmative action. Admitting underprepared students based on race into colleges where they are unable to compete with the other students who actually had the performance stats to get in causes increased dropout and low graduation rates.

 

But that gets us into politics which we are not allowed to discuss here.

 

Indeed it does stray close to politics. I was pleased to see that the article had a cross section of students from different parts of the city, not just looking at the worst performing schools.

 

I'm sure I'm partly seeing this through the lens of having just done our first college visit - at West Virginia University, where the in-state student body also can come from schools that are underperforming and families with little history of family attendance. I found that I kept wondering if some of the students in the article wouldn't have been better matched at a place like WVU, where the university seems to recognize the jump in expectations and trapdoors waiting for students who are making the high school to college transition. And where the average SAT scores are mid range rather than super high.

 

I think sometimes that admissions counselors start to have a Pokemon attitude toward selecting students (creating a collection with 1-2 of each kind but trading away extra duplicates). Each kind might be based on any number of factors, demographics, geography, intended major, musical instrument, sports ability, etc. I'm not convinced that what's in the school's interests is necessarily in the student's interests. And it's pretty hard for a student (or his school counselors or family) to look at an acceptance and then decide that school is really too demanding or too expensive. There is such a thicket of emotional responses at play with the college application and decision process.

[creekland]

I think, however, that the lamented lack of critical thinking skills and original thought can not be blamed on schools alone. First and foremost, critical thinking is developed in the home, even in non-homeschooling families, beginning from an early age, through a family culture that encourages discussions and argumentation. If students are missing out on this background, it is a disadvantage that schools can not compensate for.

 

 

Yes and no. Those coming from a critical thinking home definitely have an advantage, but the high school I went to (vs the one I work at) regularly sorted kids in about 5th grade (continued sorting until high school) and developed some incredible talent based upon ability. Some were students of highly educated parents. Some were not. When allowed to sort and provided with good teachers, schools can do a good job. The problem at the high school where I work is limited sorting goes on (they want all kids equal) AND many of the teachers are also local - meaning they've never seen/experienced a good high school (and what can be expected and done). They can not envision what could be happening. The demographics of the two areas are similar - if anything - where I work would get the nod for the "higher" demographics.

 

What irritates me a bit is that these kids, underprepared as they are, were accepted to schools like Georgetown. It's possible that at a lower tiered, lower stress state school they would have started out more in the thick of the student body average. I'm growing concerned that some students are plucked up by selective schools because they check a diversity box for admissions. Then the student is tossed into the deep end and may or may not get through their degree.

 

 

Someone on college confidential posted a study not too long ago that showed just this... students who go into Universities underprepared don't do as well as they could do elsewhere. It's not a race thing at all. The same thing often happens at my high school (and we're not all that diverse). College A is NOT equal to College B though "success" can come from any college. The best spot for any student is where they FIT. For tippy top students, top colleges (in their major) are a good fit (this may not equal USNews Top colleges). For not quite top students, schools that fit their level are better than floundering at the higher schools (in general - there can always be exceptions).

 

Higher level schools simply expect kids coming in to be at a different level. If a student has to catch up to that level, then learn new material - it's just difficult. Some can/do prevail. Many don't - or don't do as well as they could have elsewhere.

 

I feel for those with the ability who come from underperforming schools. I see them every year. My school is average stats-wise. There are MANY out there. And my youngest is at mine... with a great GPA (> 4.0) but without test scores to match (typical for my high school). Fortunately, he's only looking at mid level colleges. He would not do well at a top school even though mentally, he is capable. Educationally, he'd be underprepared. He should do well at the colleges he's aiming at. Doing well where you are/go is what leads to success - not squeaking into a top school, then being overwhelmed and quickly having to learn to sink or swim.

 

This is a super big deal for those aiming pre-med where a high GPA is a requirement. For some other paths, one can take a semester (or year) to learn to swim and still end up doing well, but it can literally ruin the path of pre-meds if the wrong school is picked.

[Luckymama]

 

 

No the snipped section was the only reference to AP courses. It doesn't give his scores or which courses he took. And if a class was focused on AP exam prep, I could see how they wouldn't spend much time on long papers. That's not a skill rewarded on the exams, where if there is a writing component, it is an essay that is rather short or specific examples to answer a question. I'm getting ready to do government next year and I have to keep reminding myself of how short and specific the free response responses are.

 

 

One can work on AP-specific writing while still assigning longer papers to your students. Too bad the teachers at that particular DC school didn't. Just thinking through the non-math-and-science AP courses my older two took, I can't think of one class that didn't carry what I would consider to be a normal writing load for an advanced class.

[In The Great White North]

What irritates me a bit is that these kids, underprepared as they are, were accepted to schools like Georgetown. It's possible that at a lower tiered, lower stress state school they would have started out more in the thick of the student body average. I'm growing concerned that some students are plucked up by selective schools because they check a diversity box for admissions. Then the student is tossed into the deep end and may or may not get through their degree. I'm not sure how much some of these kids will even know how to ask for help. (That's hard enough for students who are coming out of a solid high school environment.) And of course debt for courses you failed is still debt; debt for a degree that you didn't finish follows you around.

 

I went to an interesting lecture a few weeks ago by a guy named Kellen Winslow, Jr. Apparently, he played football back in the day, on a team that took care of its players: made sure they got a real degree, had "football team" study sessions, older players and coaches convinced younger players to be competitive in academics, not just football, taught them to take care of themselves mentally and physically (sleep, not party every night, etc).

 

When he quit playing pro ball, he went to law school. He's worked in higher ed for a while now and has developed a "wellness" mentoring programs for kids who show up unprepared for college. They've been rather successful, by his description, with a far higher return rate (as sophomores) than previous programs. He's looking for an "open enrollment" college to adopt it university wide.

 

Sort of like the KIPP program at the college level.

[Gwen in VA]

What bothers me is that people always talk about how many AP's someone took without mentioning the scores. Considering that the vast majority of students get 1's and 2's on AP exams, I think the scores matter far more than how many AP's were taken.

 

My radical thought for the day.

[Teachin'Mine]

Because some students are so poorly prepared for college level writing, it seems that incoming freshmen should take a test of some sort to determine whether they're ready for the freshman level comp course or need some remedial help first. IMO this has nothing to do with race, nor is it political. It does speak volumes about the quality of high school education. I notice that most universities mention that tutoring is available, but not remedial. Maybe they should rethink that policy and at least offer it for the first semester or two for those who need to catch up a bit. As it would likely improve the university's retention rate, it seems like it could be a win/win situation.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have no problem with underprepared students going to a challenging college, because I was one of those teenagers and knew many more in my situation. Students can and do rise to the occasion, if they have the work ethic, the ability to read, and the resources. I give many kudos to my college history prof, who handed my first paper back with 'see me' and no grade...my high school had not taught paper writing or research skills, just summarizing. Fifteen minutes of explanation, three weeks of grace, and I was up to speed. Why kick me off the trail because I didn't walk in the door with the skills, when a sufficient explanation will do? Had I only been able to get into a CC because my high school couldn't offer real college prep english,chem and physics high school courses, I would have dropped out in sheer boredom. I'd probably be a business owner instead of an engineer.

 

The sad thing is that where the K-12 student lives determines how poor the education is. There is little access to more for the unwealthy motivated student, and no inspiration or access for the intelligent but unmotivated, thanks to limited seating in challenging classes and the full inclusion policy. My district dropped IB, and it's now dropped FL for jrs and srs without giving them an academic course to sign up for. My kid is forced in to the choice of a food prep class, creative writing, or more afterschooling since there is no requirement that a district has to offer college prep. And this is a 2000 student district, with poverty of only 25%. Five years ago, it was an IB school. The population hasn't changed significantly, but the orders from the top sure have.

 

Saying that a student isn't prepared for the demands of a top college isn't saying they are only fit for cc or should be kicked off the trail. I think they might do better with a student body where they are more in the thick of the averages rather than having to play so much catch up. They might find professors that are more experienced in bringing students up to speed and learning centers to help fill gaps. I'm not convinced that Georgetown or Dartmouth are going to have as much concern for a struggling student who is miles behind their peers.

A few months back Wall Street Journal did a long profile of a student who was a top performer in her low performing Texas high school. She was accepted at Emory and headed off signing massive loans to attend. She struggled, didn't connect with help and dropped out. She still has the loans to pay off. I kept wondering if all of the folks encouraging her to go to college had suggested she try a gentler on ramp. It didn't seem so in the article. It's not as if Texas lacks good schools at in state tuition where she would have had a more gradual learning curve and the support of being closer to home.

[Jane in NC]

Another thing to consider: some colleges might do a better job with first year student transitions.

 

A number of the LACs now have first year students enroll in a first year seminar of some sort. At my son's college, it is writing intensive and across the disciplines. He took is FYS in the Music Department.

 

One of my friends teaches at a public uni that has beefed up its first year seminars. Again, they are across the disciplines, but have some core content on library use, plagiarism, formatting a written work.

 

I have previously worked in programs at two different state unis that targeted a student population that might otherwise be at risk. These kids were often the first in their families to attend college. They were enrolled in two summer school classes and then attended additional seminars on reading comprehension, general deportment (sounds a little weird but this was useful for those kids who were not familiar with academic culture and might be leery of going to a prof's office or had not been given advice on how to apply for a job). I really do believe that colleges want students to succeed. I am not suggesting that they need to hold everyone's hands, but I do think that first year students can be a bit perplexed--especially if they are living away from home for the first time.

 

For whatever reason, I was most concerned that my son's writing skills were lagging. (They were not but this was a challenging part of homeschooling for me.) So before we left campus, I walked my kid over to the writing lab where we met staff and learned how the service worked. Some parents might not even know that these services exist so that they could give a nudge if they heard frustration in their student's voice.

 

Depression is another issue that seems to rear its ugly head during the first or second year of college, the time when young people are really trying to determine their place in the world. We have seen this happen with two of my son's friends and one of his suitemates. Students who were otherwise well prepared could not cope with the rigors of college--for whatever reason. These were kids with solid academic backgrounds.

 

I think it behooves families and colleges to keep a watchful eye on first year students and lend support when the need arises. College should not be a shark tank.

[regentrude]

Because some students are so poorly prepared for college level writing, it seems that incoming freshmen should take a test of some sort to determine whether they're ready for the freshman level comp course or need some remedial help first. IMO this has nothing to do with race, nor is it political. It does speak volumes about the quality of high school education. I notice that most universities mention that tutoring is available, but not remedial. Maybe they should rethink that policy and at least offer it for the first semester or two for those who need to catch up a bit. As it would likely improve the university's retention rate, it seems like it could be a win/win situation.

 

While this may seem like a great idea on paper and would be nice for the students, it is important to keep the financial constraints in mind that may not affect the richest top tier schools, but all public institutions.

Public universities are struggling to handle dramatic enrollment increases with stagnant or reduced funding and no increased manpower. Every instructor who has to teach remedial high school level classes will not be available to teach college level classes. As a result, the remedial classes will deplete resources for upper level classes and consequently decrease the level of coursework offered at the university. It is an illusion to believe that more instructors will be hired because of the need for remedial classes; as it is, there are widespread hiring freezes, positions are cut, and schools have trouble staffing the standard classes with qualified instructors.

 

The way can not be to push high school level work into four year universities for remediation. Maybe when the underperforming high schools have their underprepared students not be admitted to those universities will parents demand, and the public fund, better schools.

I agree that testing is valuable, but ideally, it should happen before admission. Which might mean that standardized tests need to be changed to incorporate these aspects. Students who are not prepared for a four year university should attend a community college and get remediation there - and apply to the university when they are prepared for university level coursework.

[Teachin'Mine]

Remedial help doesn't have to be, nor should it be, in the form of a high school level class in college. The first year seminars Jane mentioned are one such way to help get everyone up to speed for college level writing. Yes, ideally this process should happen before September and some universities do have summer programs to address this, others do not. To say that any student not up to speed should go to cc and should not be in a top college is discounting that these are very bright and capable students to begin with. They're not lacking in intellect, they just haven't been taught well. I agree with Jane that university shouldn't be a shark tank.

[regentrude]

To say that any student not up to speed should go to cc and should not be in a top college is discounting that these are very bright and capable students to begin with. They're not lacking in intellect, they just haven't been taught well.

 

I never said these students are lacking in intellect. I did not say they should not be in a top college - but I believe they should enter this top college when they are prepared.

I consider this one of the roles of community colleges: to take students, who have left high school unprepared for a four year university, and give them the preparation they need to succeed at a university.

 

Also, it would be a lot cheaper for the student to get his remedial courses at CC, instead of paying university tuition and not even having the credits count towards their major. For example, any student whose placement test puts him into remedial math at our university, i.e. college algebra or trigonometry, both one semester courses, won't get credit for it for almost all of our majors. Being in remedial math puts him behind in the science sequence, which will likely prevent him from graduating in four years. I don't see this as effective. He would have been a lot better off taking it at CC the summer before starting college.

 

Remedial help doesn't have to be, nor should it be, in the form of a high school level class in college.

 

But it often is, like in the example of our remedial math courses: entire semesters spent teaching material that should have been, and normally is, taught in high school.

[Laura in CA]

While this may seem like a great idea on paper and would be nice for the students, it is important to keep the financial constraints in mind that may not affect the richest top tier schools, but all public institutions.

Public universities are struggling to handle dramatic enrollment increases with stagnant or reduced funding and no increased manpower. Every instructor who has to teach remedial high school level classes will not be available to teach college level classes. As a result, the remedial classes will deplete resources for upper level classes and consequently decrease the level of coursework offered at the university. It is an illusion to believe that more instructors will be hired because of the need for remedial classes; as it is, there are widespread hiring freezes, positions are cut, and schools have trouble staffing the standard classes with qualified instructors.

 

The way can not be to push high school level work into four year universities for remediation. Maybe when the underperforming high schools have their underprepared students not be admitted to those universities will parents demand, and the public fund, better schools.

I agree that testing is valuable, but ideally, it should happen before admission. Which might mean that standardized tests need to be changed to incorporate these aspects. Students who are not prepared for a four year university should attend a community college and get remediation there - and apply to the university when they are prepared for university level coursework.

 

This is exactly right.

 

This is finally happening here ... the Cal State University system (23 campuses with 436,000 students) has had enough - remedial courses needed by over half of their incoming freshmen?! With the budget woes, they no longer have the manpower. Now all kids in CA public schools take a readiness test (math & English) for the Cal State system during 11th grade; soon (or now?) they will not be allowed to enroll at a Cal State until they are up to speed, and they won't be taking remedial courses at the Cal State. That's the idea, anyway ...

Did anyone else notice that the kid took 11 APs but only got credit in 5 (possibly more, since it says at least 5)? So he flunked up to 6?

 

I noticed it, too. It just reeks of bad journalism. What does it mean that the student who graduated from high school in 2010, and has been at Dartmouth for three years got credit for "at least 5" classes? Don't they know exactly how many classes at this stage? And the article says he took 11 AP classes but doesn't mention whether he took the AP tests and, if so, what grades were awarded.

[Teachin'Mine]

Regentrude, some of those who aren't prepared for college level writing are admitted to the colleges with great scholarships. These same scholarships likely would not be available to them if they were to transfer from the cc, so the cc first and then top college route might be more expensive, or even not financially possible. I would imagine that the number of students who need remedial math at a technology based university would be reflected in a low 4 year graduation rate. IMO math is harder to re-mediate than writing as it would take much longer.

 

I agree with you that ideally all those entering college would be well prepared, but that's not the reality for many high school graduates. It's a reflection on their high schools, not their race. I know of technology schools which have very few minorities, the majority are white men, which have a problem with unprepared students.

[regentrude]

Regentrude, some of those who aren't prepared for college level writing are admitted to the colleges with great scholarships. These same scholarships likely would not be available to them if they were to transfer from the cc, so the cc first and then top college route might be more expensive, or even not financially possible.

 

 

I understand, but I think the solution then should be to have more scholarships available for transfer students as opposed to pushing remediation into universities and forcing unprepared students to enroll because this is the only way they can get financial aid.

 

I would imagine that the number of students who need remedial math at a technology based university would be reflected in a low 4 year graduation rate. IMO math is harder to re-mediate than writing as it would take much longer.

 

I do not know how easy it is to remediate English. Our colleagues form English report that about a fourth of the incoming freshman lack the reading comprehension necessary for college level reading - I have no idea how long it takes to fix that, but I would not expect a three week crash course to be able to remediate reading problems and bring them up to speed (especially since this means they will have missed several years of quality reading).

 

I agree with you that ideally all those entering college would be well prepared, but that's not the reality for many high school graduates. It's a reflection on their high schools, not their race. I know of technology schools which have very few minorities, the majority are white men, which have a problem with unprepared students.

 

 

Absolutely!!! Race per se has nothing to do with being underprepared (although it will, in some cases, have been the deciding factor that got a severely underprepared student admitted.)

I teach at a public university, so we get students from all over the state. The majority are white males (STEM school). Students from small rural high schools in very poor counties are at a severe disadvantage, because the quality of their education is often lacking. Many of those schools do not offer any physics, or math beyond trigonometry, and some have unqualified teachers. (Students tell me these stories; one student was taught physics by a biology teacher who skipped certain chapters because, as she admitted to the students, she could not understand the material.)

So absolutely, students of all races can be unprepared for college, and the problem is the quality of their high school!

[Teachin'Mine]

I think the difference may be that we're comparing apples and oranges. *Generally* in a public university there's a higher acceptance rate, and with a high acceptance rate you're going to get a broad range of students, both in preparation and academic ability. I'm talking about top tier universities which admit a small percentage of students. Even those who haven't had great teaching are still some of the best students in their school and have the intellect and willingness to do the work needed to "catch-up" once they have the proper teaching. If a public university is going to have a very high admission rate, then IMO it is their responsibility to meet those students where they're at and help them get up to speed. But they should also be up front about how much more time and expense this will likely add to their college years. For those students, I agree that cc first would likely be the better way to go.

[Catherine]

But the grass isn't always greener over in the brick and mortar schools. (And how did a kid take 11 AP courses and never write a 5 page paper? I had to write longer papers in non-AP honors courses back in the dark ages. But that's a different thread.)

 

 

I can answer that one. It's because at public schools, which get the same asinine US News rankings as colleges, AP is the new name for rigor. It is also easier, IMO, for a school to develop a public face of providing a rigorous education by offering lots of AP courses, than to really delve deep. They offer a simple path to "rigor" by spelling out a syllabus for the teacher, who can teach the AP even without deep knowledge of the topic themselves. Parents like them because they look difficult (they are difficult) but they are just more of the same superficial memorization\regurgitation, but on a bigger scale (MORE memorization and regurgitation!). There is barely any more analysis and depth in AP US History than there is is regular ole US History.

 

At least, having a kid in a public, magnet school where there are lots of APs, it looks that way to me. I am soooo glad colleges are getting wise and discouraging the explosion of APs. But there is still little in the way of rigor out there without shelling out upwards of $22,000 a year for private school, in my area at least.

[Catherine]

This thread makes me think of a story I heard awhile ago on NPR-Sonya Sotomayor talked about arriving at college and getting a D or an F on her first paper and realizing she did not know how to write. She actually went into Barnes and Noble and bought workbooks and used them to teach herself the basics of writing, over the summer between her freshman and sophomore years.

[katilac]

Did anyone else notice that the kid took 11 APs but only got credit in 5 (possibly more, since it says at least 5)? So he flunked up to 6? That's common here--kids "take" a zillion APs (parents were squawking that not enough were offered) but not passing most. Schools are rated on the number of APs, but not on the number of exams passed.

<snip>

Don't most schools limit the amount of AP credit they will give? I don't interpret this as necessarily meaning he failed up to 6 of the AP tests.

 

The wording certainly could have been clearer, but, in the writer's defense, the article may have been snipped for space.

 

Edited to add that, from what I have seen, I would not be surprised at a student scoring well on 11 AP tests and not knowing how to write a 5-page paper. I think the AP rage is doing far more harm than good.

[memphispeg]

So for AP he just regurgitated what he was told to think and do? There was no literary analysis, no deeper thought than reading x # of pages? I thought the classes had to be approved. Did they not include a term paper?

 

Now the AP bubble is bursting. Sigh.

The AP bubble burst long ago here.  In public school, the above is what happened.  Homeschooling offers the opportunity to do so much more, if the student/parents are up for it.  

[memphispeg]

This thread makes me think of a story I heard awhile ago on NPR-Sonya Sotomayor talked about arriving at college and getting a D or an F on her first paper and realizing she did not know how to write. She actually went into Barnes and Noble and bought workbooks and used them to teach herself the basics of writing, over the summer between her freshman and sophomore years.

My dd had to go to the "writing workshop" counseling center everyday for her first 2 to 3 months at her SLAC.  She had gotten 4s on her AP English exams.  It was a shock when she got her first couple of papers back from her frosh writing seminar with horrible grades and lots of red comments.  She said it wasn't until her jr. year that she felt entirely comfortable writing about anything.  But, then one day she got a "real" A- on a paper :hurray:  and she felt confident from that point on.