How do you know when you've forgiven someone? CC

[Mommy22alyns]

The past couple of years, I've had some very painful realizations about my parents. It's still very raw pain and I've had to cut off contact for my and the girls' well being. I know God wants us to forgive. How do I know if I have forgiven them? Do I just need to give myself time?

[QueenCat]

I have two people (married to each other) who have hurt me deeply. Every time I think I've forgiven them, I find out I haven't... Why? Because thinking about what they did still makes me bitterly angry. I figure the forgiveness will be real when I'm no longer bitterly angry. It's been 15 years since the "incident".

[Dory]

I think forgiveness comes from constantly letting it go. It isn't a one time thing, and it might take a long time. Every time I find myself remembering and feeling angry and consciously remind myself that I've given it to God and I need to move on. That doesn't mean the people that hurt me get to come back into my life and hurt me again, but it allows me to move on. I still have to remind myself regularly, and over time it's been easier to let go and keep going. I know in my life that forgiveness for the big things, has been a process, not a moments decision or action.

[Laurie4b]

I think forgiveness is hardest to discern when there can't be full reconciliation as well because one party is truly unsafe, or if trust has been broken and has to be rebuilt. It's easier when there is a discreet offense in an otherwise loving relationship.

 

I think forgiveness is often a journey, a long-term commitment, not a one-time event. Sometimes a one-time event can do it. Other times, it's sticking to the commitment, every time thoughts come up, to forgive and not "repay" even in your mind.

 

I struggle with the same question, particularly when I've had to set a boundary for protection and reconciliation is unlikely to happen. (Reconciliation is different than forgiveness. You can forgive someone who you cannot be fully reconciled with. It takes one to forgive, two to reconcile. If someone is unsafe, reconciliation isn't within your power on your own. They would have to change what makes them unsafe. Forgiveness is within my power on my own. It's hard, though. )

 

Two thoughts that have been helpful for me:

 

1) The debt is real. It's mentioned in the Lord's Prayer or Our Father, according to your tradition. Acknowledging that can be very helpful. Say your mom owes you $100,000 of love you didn't get. That's a real debt. Every kid should have that! But how much love has God put in your bank account? An infinite amount for you to draw on. You don't need to collect from your mom. You're rich without it. That leaves you free to forgive her because you're not still trying to "collect. "

 

2) It also helps me, with something big, to treat it as a real debt, and deliberately turn it over to Jesus. If I was in bankruptcy court, my creditors would own anything that was "coming" to me. I am in debt to Jesus, so He owns any debts that are owed to me. It is up to him what to do with it at that point.

 

A sign for me that I have to re-commit to forgiveness is if I find myself mentally "in court" with the person, making a case either in self-defense or as a prosecutor or even a judge. There are sometimes triggers that will set this off. One of them can be sadness about the relationship--wishing it was the way I would have wanted it, then feeling helpless because I can't make it that way, then "going to court." Another trigger is another similar offense.

 

I'll be interested in seeing other responses.

[Sahamamama]

Do you wish them harm? If no, then you have forgiven them. Do you wish them well in life, even though (at the moment) you don't want to be in it? If yes, then you have forgiven them.

 

For whatever reason, you saw the need to establish healthy boundaries with your parents. Defining those boundaries can be painful; maintaining those boundaries can be even harder. As time goes by, we tend to second-guess the ongoing need for the boundaries. Other people may be pressuring us to "just get over it," even accusing us of unforgiveness. We may wonder if there is some truth to what they say. FWIW, I think that if you are asking the question, "Have I forgiven them?," then that is a good sign that you have forgiven them (and continue to do so, as you gain greater insight).

 

Take a look back at your process of realizing what path was healthy. What were the reasons you decided things had to change? If those reasons are still in place, then your boundaries still need to be. Healthy boundaries are vital for protecting yourself and your family from further harm and damage. If the distance is in place for protection from real, present harm they would do to you -- not from a desire to hurt them or make them "pay" -- then the distance is there for a healthy reason.

 

Suppose my family and I lived in a little house at the foot of a volcanic mountain. The mountain erupts all over us, again and again, causing terrible damage and destruction. We try our best to make things work where we are, rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding. We talk to the mountain, as if that will change the essentials. We "forgive" the mountain for erupting repeatedly. The essential nature of the situation does not change.

 

One day, the mountain erupts and the damage is so, so, so, so bad. Just so bad. We suddenly see our true need -- distance from the mountain, a place of stability and safety. We move "away" from the source of chaos, violence, anger, rage, heartache, and pain. We move "away" from the dangers, risks, and patterns that have devastated us for so long.

 

Along with the need to heal from the most recent damage, we have a reasonable expectation that the mountain could and will erupt again. And here's the revelation -- IF WE STAY IN THE DANGER ZONE, we will be in the path of the eruption (again). What is the nature of the volcanic, active mountain? To erupt, of course. Why expect anything else?

 

It's not about you, in a way. At a certain point in the healing, I also do not think that maintaining boundaries is about unforgiveness. We just want to live, KWIM? At least, that has been my experience with this particular volcanic person (my sister). For me, I realized that I could not be a functional, loving, available, whole wife and mother unless something fundamental changed in how I was a daughter and a sister. So, yes, my boundaries changed.

 

Sigh.

 

It's not easy. However, we all do reap what we sow. Long periods of abuse and verbal violence and undisciplined unkindness and _______ (fill in your own blank) do have consequences, KWIM?

 

I decided one morning that I could not keep going if things stayed the same. And my husband and three daughters ae going to come before my parents and my sibling. I would rather put "them" (parents/sibling) through "this" (strain/separation) than put my husband and daughters through "that" (i.e., spiritual attacks from the pit of hell, brought on by abusive family dynamics). You have to see it for what it is, I think. I had never been attacked like I was with this family situation. It was horrific. The only thing that turned the tide was lots of prayer and changing the boundaries. HTH.

[milovany]

I say it. Then if I doubt sometime, I say it again. Lather rinse repeat. I don't harbor ill will, and don't speak ill of them to others. This is all I can do, and I can't own or change their replies/feelings.

[KrissiK]

For me it's when I can stop having those "get back at them" fantasies. When I stop wanting them to pay for what they've done. Many times the relationship cannot be healed, but I don't think forgiveness requires that.

[Violet Crown]

I wrestled with the question this year. There is no question of 'reconciliation': he was a complete stranger who attempted to harm my child, and it's my intent never to encounter him again outside a courtroom. I did, and do, in fact, wish the man harm, in the sense of having actively obtained retributive justice and judicially enforced exclusion from our community and the proximity of any member of my family. He has had no discernible remorse, instead blaming dh and various authority figures for his persecution. I speak necessary ill of him to others quite readily, as good information is their protection. He caused damage, and will be in a position to try to do so again, so I stay vigilant; no forgetting or 'letting go' is practicable. I have a court order on my person at all times that will prevent me from the kind of 'forgiveness' I once thought was a Christian's duty.

 

My confessor observed to me that forgiveness is an act of the will, not an agreeable emotional state nor a healed relationship. In this case, that simply means willing no worse to him than is my obligation. I don't dwell, don't fantasize revenge, and don't kid myself about what he is.

[Dory]

I wrestled with the question this year. There is no question of 'reconciliation': he was a complete stranger who attempted to harm my child, and it's my intent never to encounter him again outside a courtroom. I did, and do, in fact, wish the man harm, in the sense of having actively obtained retributive justice and judicially enforced exclusion from our community and the proximity of any member of my family. He has had no discernible remorse, instead blaming dh and various authority figures for his persecution. I speak necessary ill of him to others quite readily, as good information is their protection. He caused damage, and will be in a position to try to do so again, so I stay vigilant; no forgetting or 'letting go' is practicable. I have a court order on my person at all times that will prevent me from the kind of 'forgiveness' I once thought was a Christian's duty.

 

My confessor observed to me that forgiveness is an act of the will, not an agreeable emotional state nor a healed relationship. In this case, that simply means willing no worse to him than is my obligation. I don't dwell, don't fantasize revenge, and don't kid myself about what he is.

 

 

Thank you for saying this.

[hsbeth]

I relate. I've come to realize that forgiveness is an action, not a feeling. The following criteria are helpful to me (taken from http://www.peacemaker.net/site/c.aqKFLTOBIpH/b.958157/)

 

1)I will not dwell on this incident

2)I will not bring this incident up again and use it against you

3)I will not talk to others about this incident

4)I will not let this incident stand between us or hinder our relationship

 

I can honestly say that I've got a handle on numbers 1-3, however some situations do merit different boundaries. When boundaries are necessary they are not for "comfort" but for "safety". They are certainly not meant to be punitive.

 

I do believe that all of the above promises of forgiveness resemble the forgiveness that we are offered through faith in Christ.

[8circles]

Forgiveness isn't a one-time thing. I have similar issues with my parents & I need to forgive them over & over again, for the same wrongs. I think this is what is meant by 70 X 7. Every time I feel the hurt & remember the wrong I have to forgive them all over again. I'm assuming that at some point it will become easier.

 

I agree with others who said that reconciliation is separate from forgiveness.

[Scarlett]

I think forgiveness is hardest to discern when there can't be full reconciliation as well because one party is truly unsafe, or if trust has been broken and has to be rebuilt. It's easier when there is a discreet offense in an otherwise loving relationship.

 

I think forgiveness is often a journey, a long-term commitment, not a one-time event. Sometimes a one-time event can do it. Other times, it's sticking to the commitment, every time thoughts come up, to forgive and not "repay" even in your mind.

 

I struggle with the same question, particularly when I've had to set a boundary for protection and reconciliation is unlikely to happen. (Reconciliation is different than forgiveness. You can forgive someone who you cannot be fully reconciled with. It takes one to forgive, two to reconcile. If someone is unsafe, reconciliation isn't within your power on your own. They would have to change what makes them unsafe. Forgiveness is within my power on my own. It's hard, though. )

 

 

 

 

This sums up how I feel about forgiveness. I rarely see it so well put so thank you.

 

The person who has hurt me the most is my XH. I sometimes feel that anger welling up toward him even though I do NOT want to harbor that resentment toward my son's father...and even though I am happily remarried. I see the 'list' of wrongs he did to me running through my head and I never know what to do with it. Sometimes I think I should confront him with the list and just lay it out...other times I feel like that is pointless now. So when I am feeling it is pointless to tell him how badly he hurt me I feel like it is best to not dwell on the list....so I shove it out of my mind. Somtimes the list swirls so visiously in my mind that I think I will go crazy.....then I talk to my dh and he tells me yes my XH is a total jerk. ;) Then I feel better.

 

It is hard. I have no desire to hold on to resentment. I feel it is poison to me....but not sure how to let it go especially when as you say there will be no reconsiliation.

[PachiSusan]

I have always been told that forgiveness is just as much about you finding peace in your heart and moving on as it is to let go of the rehashing of the hurt the other has caused.

 

How can you know when you've truly forgiven? I don't know, but I do know that when I find I've truly forgiven someone, I don't get a sick feeling in my stomach when I think of them or see them. I can also tell when something positive happens for them, I can have a degree of happiness for them.

[*Lulu*]

I wrestled with the question this year. There is no question of 'reconciliation': he was a complete stranger who attempted to harm my child, and it's my intent never to encounter him again outside a courtroom. I did, and do, in fact, wish the man harm, in the sense of having actively obtained retributive justice and judicially enforced exclusion from our community and the proximity of any member of my family. He has had no discernible remorse, instead blaming dh and various authority figures for his persecution. I speak necessary ill of him to others quite readily, as good information is their protection. He caused damage, and will be in a position to try to do so again, so I stay vigilant; no forgetting or 'letting go' is practicable. I have a court order on my person at all times that will prevent me from the kind of 'forgiveness' I once thought was a Christian's duty.

 

My confessor observed to me that forgiveness is an act of the will, not an agreeable emotional state nor a healed relationship. In this case, that simply means willing no worse to him than is my obligation. I don't dwell, don't fantasize revenge, and don't kid myself about what he is.

 

 

Thank you for posting this. I was very badly chastised by fellow Christians for my unforgiving spirit toward those who had attacked and abused me because I voiced the thought that I would be unwilling to stay in a church where they attended. I had a very wise man of God advise me something very similar to what your confessor shared with you. I know that if those who harmed me confess their sins to God he will faithfully forgive and remember their sins no more. Long after any hate I bore those who wronged me was gone the damage they inflicted remained; I cannot forget while I am still wounded and God does not require forgetfulness.

 

I know that I have forgiven because I no longer wish them harm; I no longer cringe or feel anger over the thought that they are loved by God and may have sought forgiveness from him for the acts committed against me.

 

I can hope, even pray, that somewhere they have been restored in their relationships with God and with other believers. I do not see my desire to worship in a space where they are not as being in conflict with forgiveness.

[Sahamamama]

I have always been told that forgiveness is just as much about you finding peace in your heart and moving on as it is to let go of the rehashing of the hurt the other has caused.

 

How can you know when you've truly forgiven? I don't know, but I do know that when I find I've truly forgiven someone, I don't get a sick feeling in my stomach when I think of them or see them. I can also tell when something positive happens for them, I can have a degree of happiness for them.

 

I believe that I have forgiven my sister. However, my husband and I decided that we will not be in a relationship with her. Our friends (mutual friends with her, too), a family counselor, and our pastor were all in complete agreement. In fact, they strongly urged us to completely disconnect from her abuse and rage. I do not want to see her or be in a room with her. I haven't spoken to her in almost two years. I wish her well in her life. I do not want her in mine. When things go well for her, I am truly glad about it. I wish her no harm. I also wish myself no harm, and she has been a consistent, dependable source of it. :tongue_smilie:

 

FWIW, I do get a sick feeling when I think of being in the same space with her. If I made a choice to be in the same space -- as I did when our father had surgery last year -- then I could handle it. However, if I was forced to be in the same space, I might feel and react like a trapped animal. I would try to handle it, but the fight-or-flight is now hard-wired in me with her. Why? Because she has a long, long, long history of attacking people violently and verbally (not only me). So, when you realize, "Hey, that's what she does, that's what she'll continue to do!" it changes where you want to place yourself. KWIM?

 

Thank you for posting this. I was very badly chastised by fellow Christians for my unforgiving spirit toward those who had attacked and abused me because I voiced the thought that I would be unwilling to stay in a church where they attended. I had a very wise man of God advise me something very similar to what your confessor shared with you. I know that if those who harmed me confess their sins to God he will faithfully forgive and remember their sins no more. Long after any hate I bore those who wronged me was gone the damage they inflicted remained; I cannot forget while I am still wounded and God does not require forgetfulness.

 

I know that I have forgiven because I no longer wish them harm; I no longer cringe or feel anger over the thought that they are loved by God and may have sought forgiveness from him for the acts committed against me.

 

I can hope, even pray, that somewhere they have been restored in their relationships with God and with other believers. I do not see my desire to worship in a space where they are not as being in conflict with forgiveness.

 

:iagree: Thanks for posting this. I agree. Earth is not big enough. Somehow, Heaven will be.

[milovany]

For me it's when I can stop having those "get back at them" fantasies. When I stop wanting them to pay for what they've done. Many times the relationship cannot be healed, but I don't think forgiveness requires that.

 

I think this is an important point, too. I wish no ill on them. I pray "Lord, at the day of judgment, let them not be condemned because of me."

[Laurie4b]

This thread has been helpful to read. When you have to set boundaries with someone that you love, but who is dangerous to you, it is very hard. :crying: I struggle less now with second-guessing myself, mostly because I set the boundaries with a lot of input from people I thought were wise, and partly was helped by their utter incredulity that I would even question it, but it is still hard.

[Laurie4b]

Somtimes the list swirls so visiously in my mind that I think I will go crazy.....then I talk to my dh and he tells me yes my XH is a total jerk. ;) Then I feel better.

 

 

 

 

Do you think this part is about forgiveness or about trying to get a handle on reality? Sometimes people's behavior toward us is so incomprehensible that it makes us feel crazy, and part of our mind can stay obsessed with trying to figure out if somehow we deserved it and the going round and round can be a way, maybe, of saying, "No, I am not crazy. It really was that bad. Right? Right? Here's the evidence. It was bad, right? " It sounds like this is what your dh does for you: he affirms reality. ( I could be wrong but this kind of sounds like that.)

[Mommy22alyns]

 

Do you think this part is about forgiveness or about trying to get a handle on reality? Sometimes people's behavior toward us is so incomprehensible that it makes us feel crazy, and part of our mind can stay obsessed with trying to figure out if somehow we deserved it and the going round and round can be a way, maybe, of saying, "No, I am not crazy. It really was that bad. Right? Right? Here's the evidence. It was bad, right? " It sounds like this is what your dh does for you: he affirms reality. ( I could be wrong but this kind of sounds like that.)

 

 

 

My DH does this for me too. You put your finger right on it.

[Scarlett]

 

 

Do you think this part is about forgiveness or about trying to get a handle on reality? Sometimes people's behavior toward us is so incomprehensible that it makes us feel crazy, and part of our mind can stay obsessed with trying to figure out if somehow we deserved it and the going round and round can be a way, maybe, of saying, "No, I am not crazy. It really was that bad. Right? Right? Here's the evidence. It was bad, right? " It sounds like this is what your dh does for you: he affirms reality. ( I could be wrong but this kind of sounds like that.)

 

 

 

 

My DH does this for me too. You put your finger right on it.

 

 

Exactly. Just last night something reminded me of one of the many incidents in my first marriage where xh proved himself to be untrustworthy. Dh said that xh might should stop coming in the house when he drops ds off because he ( dh) might just snap someday and beat the crap out of him. Lol. And while I dont think that would be helpful it does reassure me that a normal loving man thinks xhs behavior was despicable.

 

And what is really crazy is the times I feel compassion for my xh. He is a man who has lost everything due to his stupidity....I think it would be devastating to live with that knowledge.

[Scarlett]

 

 

 

My DH does this for me too. You put your finger right on it.

 

 

The problem, or the trap I sometimes fall into is that I can't find the line to stop,talking about it. How much reassurance do I actually need that YES it was HIM not me. I do think my thoughts in general lean toward obsessive, so I try to control them....I don't want my past to overshadow my wonderful life now.

[Sahamamama]

The problem, or the trap I sometimes fall into is that I can't find the line to stop,talking about it. How much reassurance do I actually need that YES it was HIM not me. I do think my thoughts in general lean toward obsessive, so I try to control them....I don't want my past to overshadow my wonderful life now.

 

 

I get like this sometimes. :tongue_smilie: I tell myself, "You already know what Hubby is going to say, right?" So I wait until he's at work or out getting groceries, and then I "talk" to him about it -- yeah, in my head. Silly, but I know he doesn't really want to hear about ________ (sister) again and again and again. As wonderful and supportive as he has been, in a way it wasn't his battle -- he doesn't have the same wounds, so he doesn't need to heal in the same way.

 

About the need to "go over it," I think Laurie nailed it. The other person's behavior was/is so bad, so irrational, so incomprehensible, that it's hard to establish it as reality. We must be missing something, right? Perhaps we deserved it, somehow? Or brought it on ourselves by something we did or didn't do? Or it wasn't really so bad?

 

Especially in a family culture of blame and shame, it's hard to extract yourself from that pattern and see abuse for what it is. So, yes, I have to talk about it, but I'm at the point where I can rant to myself at times. Not all the time, but every now and then there is a need to go over it again. In my situation, there is a need to go over it again simply because my parents continue to push against the boundaries, as if something meaningful has changed in the way things would be.

 

No, they don't care about meaningful change, now that I think about it. They just want the appearance of One Big, Happy Family. They drop hints like, "Your sister says she misses you" :svengo: or "She says she never intended to lose a sister over it." :nopity:

 

I go back to the beginning and work my way through again. :huh:

[Violet Crown]

 

About the need to "go over it," I think Laurie nailed it. The other person's behavior was/is so bad, so irrational, so incomprehensible, that it's hard to establish it as reality. We must be missing something, right? Perhaps we deserved it, somehow? Or brought it on ourselves by something we did or didn't do? Or it wasn't really so bad?

Completely agree. I went through a brief period of this, but had the immense advantage of an attorney and a police detective putting things into blunt and brutal perspective for me. This is where I think counseling is very necessary, when the legal system isn't involved (and undoubtedly in many cases where it is): there must be some third party with *experience* in these matters who can reattach you to reality rather than the bizarro-world that another person is trying to have you live in.