milovany Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I have a friend that I'm just super bummed for. She's had two previous c-sections; neither for something that couldn't be different in a future pregnancy (one for low-lying placenta and one for breech presentation). She's pregnant again, due to deliver in about 2 weeks or so. She really, really, REALLY wants to have a natural delivery and found a local doctor who was willing to work with her. Several months ago he did an ultrasound and the placenta was low-lying again. He said it was possible it could move, so they waited and had another ultrasound about two months ago. Well, it moved! And she was cleared to keep considering a VBAC. About a month ago, the baby was breech. It stayed breech for quite awhile. They waited and prayed on that one, too, and lo' and behold -- it flipped! The doctor confirmed this and again cleared her to keep on with the VBAC expectations. She was SO happy and everyone praying just thrilled too. Then. Just 3-4 weeks before her due date, our local hospital passed a new regulation: No more VBA2Cs!!!!! None. Ever. Not even if you're already pregnant and about to deliver within a month and have been planning this and have your doctor's okay and have overcome two major hurdles already! Oh, it's so maddening! My friend and her dh checked out every other available option they could think of (even delivering 100 miles away at a "high risk" clinic) and none worked out. Home birth is an option of course (we've had unassisted home births and so she and I have talked about that as a possibility) but they're just not comfortable with delivering at home. Which is FINE of course, but that was the last of the options. So her 3rd c-section is now scheduled for August 15. I am just so bummed for her and came HERE to rant b/c she doesn't need to deal with everyone's frustration in addition to her own. [*Kicking the tree*] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdWTMer Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 What a terrible bummer! How awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighthouseacademy Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Can she insist on not scheduling, get a doula/midwife, and then rush to the hospital just before delivering (wait in the parking lot if they have to) and then they will have to allow the delivery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindee Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 How maddening!!! :banghead: :sad: I am praying that something will work out for her!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Well I can sure offer sympathy. You might like to share that she's not alone. :crying::banghead: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Which hospital are you referencing? I'd like to learn more about their regulations. As an aside, I always cringe a bit when people refer to vaginal deliveries as "natural", thereby implying cesareans are...what? not natural? They're surgical deliveries, and of course involve more intervention. But there is nothing "unnatural" about delivering a child via cesarean.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Why do people put up w/ policies like this???? It's *completely* ridiculous!! I'm sorry, but pg women are treated like criminals sometimes. You. do. not. cut. my. body. open. w/out my permission!!!! Your friend should not give up. I don't know what her options are, but she should have access to reasonable medical care (i.e., a hospital if she wants it), & this should not FORCE her to have MAJOR SURGERY. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!! :angry::smash::mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Martha, I read your blog posts. I've had one c-section and then six vaginals after that. It's absolutely unreal to consider that the "system" might deny me a vaginal if I need to go to the hospital for some reason (my six v's have been unassisted home births) -- even though I've done it successfully SIX TIMES. Wow. I want to get a bumper sticker made: "I'm Pro-Choice: When It Comes to Birth Options!" So your blog posts were more than a month ago -- where do things stand now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 I would respectfully disagree, Colleen. A c-section ISN'T the way a person was designed to have a baby (the word "natural" referring to the way nature -- in my belief system, God -- designed it). NOT that a c-section isn't a *valid* way for a baby to come into the world in an emergency, but it truly isn't *natural* by definition to deliver that way. I've had a c-section, and don't consider that a "natural" delivery at all. It was surgery, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 That's too bad, but I understand the policy. I almost lost a good friend to a VBAC, she ruptured and they didn't know for a couple of hours. If she had been at our local hospital she would have died. They refuse to do them anymore, and send women wanting them to the big city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I would respectfully disagree, Colleen. A c-section ISN'T the way a person was designed to have a baby (the word "natural" referring to the way nature -- in my belief system, God -- designed it). NOT that a c-section isn't a *valid* way for a baby to come into the world in an emergency, but it truly isn't *natural* by definition to deliver that way. I've had a c-section, and don't consider that a "natural" delivery at all. It was surgery, plain and simple. No question, God designed a woman's body to deliver a baby vaginally. He also designed people in recent history who have saved the lives of untold numbers of women and children via surgical delivery. Since I've been blessed with five, healthy children, all of whom came into this world via cesarean, I can only assume God intended that to be my natural reality.:) I asked previously what hospital it is that has banned VBACs. If you'd rather not share the name here, would you considering shooting me a private message? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 *I'm* the activist amongst us, lol. My friend, not so much. I mean, she stands for things she believes in and is firm (as is her dh). But she's 2 weeks from delivering and doesn't want to be in constant fight mode these last weeks,which I "get". I WANT TO FIGHT IT FOR HER (as do others), but she doesn't want that either. Sigh. I really think she'd do FINE with a home birth -- but who am I to tell her that? I did tell her that if she happened to go into labor and things happened really quickly and she was about to deliver at home b/c they couldn't make it to the hospital to call me and I'll come help take care of things; I've done it six times before!! :) If it were ME -- I'd be fighting it. I even went down and got a complaint form at the hospital the day she told me this regulation had been passed. I have a friend who's dh is a doctor and a friend who's a nurse and they both said similar things: It's too big. The "system" is there to protect doctors and the hospital against being sued and it's too big (not that it's right, as both of them said, but it IS the way it is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm of the activist persuasion myself, so I appreciate your passion. It's easier to be passionate about something, though, when you've gone that route and everything's come up roses. Given my circumstances, I thank my lucky stars no one counseled me to try for a home birth, ever. I really think she'd do FINE with a home birth -- but who am I to tell her that? I did tell her that if she happened to go into labor and things happened really quickly and she was about to deliver at home b/c they couldn't make it to the hospital to call me and I'll come help take care of things; I've done it six times before!! Well, not really, since you haven't had two cesareans. To that end, her circumstances are somewhat different than yours. Any-hoo, I do understand your frustration on her behalf, but of course the best thing you can do right now is to support her where she's at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Martha, I read your blog posts. I've had one c-section and then six vaginals after that. It's absolutely unreal to consider that the "system" might deny me a vaginal if I need to go to the hospital for some reason (my six v's have been unassisted home births) -- even though I've done it successfully SIX TIMES. Wow. I want to get a bumper sticker made: "I'm Pro-Choice: When It Comes to Birth Options!" So your blog posts were more than a month ago -- where do things stand now? Well, we found a CPM. I'm fairly comfortable with her. As much as I am any medical professional these days. I so completely don't trust any of them anymore. We are hoping we can get our insurance to pay for her same as an OB. Otherwise we are looking at having to coem up with $2400 we don't have within the next 4 months. I don't knwo what we'll do if the insurance turns it down. The stress is really making me sick ot my stomach so I try not to dwell on all the "what ifs" so I don't go insane. I do feel I'm making the best decision for my and my baby's health. I do not need a major medical procedure, so I'm not getting one. I do not need drs and a hospital who care more about profit than sound medical care for each individual patient. If my situation changes, then I'm willing to reconsider, but until then - I refuse to be cut open for the sake of lining their pockets. I really think she'd do FINE with a home birth -- but who am I to tell her that? I understand her. If this was my first VBAC, I don't know if I'd be brave enough to consider homebirth. They seriously try to scare the he** out of patients and it's hard for a pregnant woman to not feel terribly intimidated when surrounded by a bunch of white coats claiming she's going to end up with a dead baby. ETA: Sadly this policy doesn't help either patient of drs. It creates fear and distrust. And that's never the right way to make medical decisions. If it were ME -- I'd be fighting it. I even went down and got a complaint form at the hospital the day she told me this regulation had been passed. I have a friend who's dh is a doctor and a friend who's a nurse and they both said similar things: It's too big. It's not just hard. It's very expensive. And in the mean time the clock is ticking and the pressure is on. Some drs even wait until the patient is far along so that there isn't time for a patient to fight it. I mean if you are due in a couple weeks or days, it's nearly impossible to find another dr or hospital to take you, so you have to fly solo for a bit or let them have their way. That's very scary to me. The worry that at the last minute, after all my efforts, I'm still going to get whatever Joe Shmoe happens to be waling down the hall when I come in and the hospital staff will be terse and unkind or flat out say I'm stable, send her to the city hospital? Deep breath. NOT going to worry about that right now. I'm healthy. All my pregnancies have been healthy so far. There's no reason to think thsi pregnancy's delivery won't go smoothly regardless of delivery locale. No reason. Deep breath. Like I said, I so have sympathy for your friend.:crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 She could be busy the day of the scheduled C section and could simply show up pushing, but if it were me, I'd have a home birth, which is what I did to avoid a repeat C section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 She could be busy the day of the scheduled C section and could simply show up pushing, but if it were me, I'd have a home birth, which is what I did to avoid a repeat C section. I heard that advice too, but I'm not against getting care - just against getting bad care. I'd rather have a planned and prepared for homebirth under good care than an unplanned goodness only knows what I'll get when I walk in the doors or deliver on the side of the road delivery. jmho I'd have to truely feel they left me with no other option to go that route. For example, if I couldn't find a decent midwife or if I lived far out of town where mergency care wouldn't be available. If I can afford her, I've got a midwife, I've had 5 uneventful VBACs, and I'm within a 5 minute nonspeeding drive to 3 different hospitals - so for now, I'm just trying to pin my hopes on a good home delivery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighthouseacademy Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I have a friend who is a retired surgeon (general) and her dh is an ER dr. She had a CS with her first and then opted for a homebirth with a lay midwife with #2. She told me that the reason there are so many csections and policies in place is that no one has ever sued for an unnecessary csection- they only have sued for a csection that was not done. This was said before one couple in NJ a year or so ago did sue and win a suit about unnecessary csections... All that said, there is an attorney working with ICAN who was pursuing hospitals who force csections instead of allowing VBACs. You might call ICAN. As for insurance and homebirth. The only way that insurance can truly deny a homebirth is if it is in the insurance paperwork SPECIFICALLY. They may attempt to deny it or pay less, but unless it specifically says no homebirth, the code used for the birth is actually the same as in the hospital EXCEPT the location code is different. So, you can then tell them that because they have not provided a preferred provider that provides the service, they need to pay for the birth. I have successfully fought insurance twice to pay for births in full when they only wanted to play 60% of usual and customary... one time I did have to take my complaint to the state insurance board and then they had to pay 100% instead of the 80% I was fighting for because they had wrongly denied the claim and had to pay penalties by paying the whole claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 As for insurance and homebirth. The only way that insurance can truly deny a homebirth is if it is in the insurance paperwork SPECIFICALLY. They may attempt to deny it or pay less, but unless it specifically says no homebirth, the code used for the birth is actually the same as in the hospital EXCEPT the location code is different. So, you can then tell them that because they have not provided a preferred provider that provides the service, they need to pay for the birth. This is the angle we are going with at this time and have high hopes it will go smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 In my belief system about birth, "natural" means "without anesthesia". I sincerely hope no one has had a c-section without anesthesia! I wouldn't refer to any vaginal delivery as "natural." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in MO Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I do understand your frustration on her behalf, but of course the best thing you can do right now is to support her where she's at. :iagree: I appreciate your frustration for your friend, and, like you said, you're coming *here* since she already has her own frustration to deal with. I'm not defending the hospital, but they've made this policy because other hospitals have been slapped with some major lawsuits over uterine rupture during VBACs. The last time I heard, our local hospital will only allow VBACs if your doctor agrees to not leave your side from the time you walk into the hospital until you deliver. They don't allow VBA2Cs at all. But while this policy is based on money, you can't escape the fact that VBAC after 2 c-sections is risky. I would not try to persuade her to try a homebirth under those circumstances. And for the record, I've had three c-sections. I don't think my oldest and I would be alive today if it hadn't been for the c-section. My subsequent c-sections were for the same problem (big-headed babies and a small-framed mama). My c-section recoveries weren't that bad (especially since I don't know any different). I was at first very disappointed when I couldn't deliver vaginally, but I've since come to see that motherhood is so much more than how the babies get here. I hope your friend is able to come to peace with her deliveries as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen in NJ Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Why do people put up w/ policies like this???? It's *completely* ridiculous!! I'm sorry, but pg women are treated like criminals sometimes. You. do. not. cut. my. body. open. w/out my permission!!!! Your friend should not give up. I don't know what her options are, but she should have access to reasonable medical care (i.e., a hospital if she wants it), & this should not FORCE her to have MAJOR SURGERY. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!! :angry::smash::mad: :iagree::glare: I would SHOUT it out! Forced operations!!!!!! UGH!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjzimmer1 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Unfortunately the medical community is so paranoid about lawsuits, that they have totally lost touch with what is best for the patients and only worry about what is best for them. My first 2 were c-sections as well. When #3 came along Vbac's were still acceptable but not encouraged. I had to consent to all kinds of monitoring, IV line etc "just in case" to get the doctor to let me try a VBA2C. Well #3 arrived with a bang, they didn't have time to do the monitoring, (she was born about 5 minutes after arriving in my room), I certainly didn't have an IV because we hadn't even gotten around to filling out the paperwork yet, I never pushed ( there was no doctor since I was actually admitted yet) but she arrived anyways. Since #3 was so easy I didn't anticipate any problems with having another VBA2C with #4. However, policies had changed between #3 and #4 and the doctor(different than last time) tried pretty much every scare tactic in the book to convince me I NEEDED a c-section. Since we knew we were having more kids I wouldn't budge. She actually came around when I explained all my reasons (having 4 small kids, limited help at home, and I felt risk to future pregnancies with having a 3rd c-section now was greater than risking a VBAC was to current pregnancy etc). 2 pushes and baby #4 was out. Baby #5 is due in 3 weeks so I can totally feel your friends pain. I started this pregnancy with same Doctor as #4. She told me up front she still thinks a c-section is a better option for me but since she knows I know the risks, she will let me try again. I had to switch mid-pregnancy due to insurance and am now seeing doctor I had with #3. SHe too felt the need to tell me she thought a c-section was a better option. But after my arguments will let me VBAC. Although she did warn me to expect some resisitance when I actually arrive at the hospital. It really sucks that hospitals can dictate what a person can and can not do. ALthough I've always wondered, if I show up in full blown labor and refuse to sign the consent form for a c-section what are they going to do? They can't really refuse to treat you. Stephanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkInTheBlue Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I know absolutely nothing about this. I've had 3 uneventful, or as my OB calls it "nice, boring pregnancy and deliveries", so c-sections aren't anything I've ever had experience with. I do have a question though. IF someone showed up at the hospital in true and complete labor and REFUSED to have a c-section even though the hospital 'policy' states she must, what would they do? They can't kick you to the street and they surely can't physically manhandle you and drag you to to OR, can they? What would happen? Just curious! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I heard that advice too, but I'm not against getting care - just against getting bad care. I'd rather have a planned and prepared for homebirth under good care than an unplanned goodness only knows what I'll get when I walk in the doors or deliver on the side of the road delivery. . I agree and like I said thats why I did choose to have a home birth, but if her husband isn't comfortable with it or she doesn't want a home birth, she still has options. I would not just walk in and allow them to cut me because of some stupid rule. No way, no how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I know absolutely nothing about this. I've had 3 uneventful, or as my OB calls it "nice, boring pregnancy and deliveries", so c-sections aren't anything I've ever had experience with. I do have a question though. IF someone showed up at the hospital in true and complete labor and REFUSED to have a c-section even though the hospital 'policy' states she must, what would they do? They can't kick you to the street and they surely can't physically manhandle you and drag you to to OR, can they? What would happen? Just curious! Thanks! They can't force you ( although they have got court ordered C sections, it doesn't happen often and would take time) but they could make your life miserable because you dare to buck the system. Chances are though that everything would go smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 As for insurance and homebirth. The only way that insurance can truly deny a homebirth is if it is in the insurance paperwork SPECIFICALLY. They may attempt to deny it or pay less, but unless it specifically says no homebirth, the code used for the birth is actually the same as in the hospital EXCEPT the location code is different. So, you can then tell them that because they have not provided a preferred provider that provides the service, they need to pay for the birth. I have successfully fought insurance twice to pay for births in full when they only wanted to play 60% of usual and customary... one time I did have to take my complaint to the state insurance board and then they had to pay 100% instead of the 80% I was fighting for because they had wrongly denied the claim and had to pay penalties by paying the whole claim. In NH our insurance paid our MW 100% even though I did transfer at the last minute. In Maine they flat out refused and we paid for the birth out of pocket( which I'd do again in a second as it was worth every penny). Talk to your MW she most likely will set up some kind of payment system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningirl71 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 They can't force you ( although they have got court ordered C sections, it doesn't happen often and would take time) but they could make your life miserable because you dare to buck the system. Chances are though that everything would go smoothly. Yes, this happened to a friend of mine. She actually found a doctor who agreed to do a VBAC, but had some "rules" to follow, like calling him as soon as she went into labor. Well, she didn't, and just showed up at the hospital practically ready to push the baby out. That dr. made her delivery the most stressful out of any of her deliveries. He was mad the whole time, yelling, and everything. Pretty miserable. I'm not saying she did the right thing by not following the doctor's rules, he was doing her a favor, really, but yes, it was miserable. :grouphug: to you Darla. Hope all will figure out a solution that everyone feels comfortable with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philothea Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I can really relate here. With 2 c-sections, I know that if I don't go into labor before or the week after the due date, the pressure to be cut open again will be on. I had to make lots of phone calls to find a midwife and hospital that did VBA2C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 They can't force you ( although they have got court ordered C sections, it doesn't happen often and would take time) but they could make your life miserable because you dare to buck the system. Chances are though that everything would go smoothly. First, that would *so* be me. Passive-agressive rebellion. But, second--court-ordered C-sections???? I can't imagine. I simply can't imagine! I just told dh about it, & he asked what happened to Free Choice? I mean, how can abortion be legal & there *also* be such things as COURT-ORDERED C-SECTIONS????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 First, that would *so* be me. Passive-agressive rebellion. But, second--court-ordered C-sections???? I can't imagine. I simply can't imagine! I just told dh about it, & he asked what happened to Free Choice? I mean, how can abortion be legal & there *also* be such things as COURT-ORDERED C-SECTIONS????? I would so NOT count on it taking time to get a court order because hospitals have access to legal assistance 24/7 with on staff lawyers. And they often claim to get CPS involved too for neglectling medical care for the baby. And yeah, I posted in my blog the irony that the same facilities that seem to supposedly care so much about such babies wouldn't mind if they'd gotten an abortion. What blarney.:glare: Here's some links I found with google. There's many more and probably better than these. But I had to hurry b/c my kids need breakfast! The case in Penn state was strictly a case of the ob thinking the woman could not deliver a 10+lb baby (although she had in the past!) and insisting she needed a c/sec. She left AMA and went to another hospital where she delivered without complications. Good thing, because the other hospital had gotten a court order to give a c/s when she returned and had sent police to her home! murder charge for woman who refused a c-section & lost a baby a cancer patient who died under a court ordered c/s medical summary of 9 court ordered c/s cases and the medical pedagogy of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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