JeanM Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 We're debating putting ds1 in a charter school next year. One of the things that I don't like about the school is that they have no paper books at all. They give every kid a laptop, and all the "books" are on the computer. Am I being old-fashioned? Would this bother you? Edited to add that this is for grades 9-12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It would not exactly bother me, but I find it impractical if the textbooks are actually to be read. If they merely contain assorted problems and assignments, not so much. I have talked to several of my college students who have electronic versions of their textbooks, and they all disliked it because you can't see a double page on the screen and can not easily flip back and forth between pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyThreeSons Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Some digital texts are better than others. I use a digital text to teach Physics at our co-op. It's not perfect, but I like it overall. I have a paper copy, as well, though, which I often use. I tutored a student who was using a different digital Physics text for his online school through the public school system. It was terrible!! I couldn't believe that they so miserably failed to take advantage of the digital format. For example, there was no index which could be accessed to get to a particular topic. And the video snippits which explained concepts could not be paused or rewound in any way: the student had to let it play through, and then go back and view it all over again to pick up on that key concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misty.warden Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I would be worried about eyestrain if your dc were expected to do that much reading on a computer, plus it limits where the reading can be done because the laptop must be there. No reading in the bath, in bed (if computers in the bedrooms aren't allowed), worrying about charging being available if you took trips and had deadlines during those dates. If the program was really exceptional, I would look into if the books are available at the library and they just include them all on the computer for convenience to the student or if the materials are *only* available in digital form through the school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nscribe Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I prefer books. I like the feel of them. Dd prefers books. But the world of publishing is changing and the thing about change is it can disrupt and unsettle or it can be adapted to and taken in stride. It is hard for me to argue that charter schools must have paper libraries or paper books. Many schools don't have chalkboards, they don't even have whiteboards, they have interactive whiteboards. Many don't take attendance by actually calling a name or looking and recognizing a student. They do it by clickers or scanned id's. It really is just the direction things are going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessicamcc Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I'm a total book nerd, so this would be hard for me. My 13 year old is the same way. But, some people prefer the computer. :svengo: I don't get it, but everyone is different. Would it bother your son? Or would he like it? I think that should be factored into your decision making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I don't have a problem with well written digital textbooks. I just print the pages I want. My older boy's math textbook is in hardcover and digital format. I like the digital format for its portability and the hardcover for saving electricity consumption. California has an initiative to get more textbooks in digital format. "Because they are available in digital format, the approved textbooks can be downloaded and used in a variety of ways. Students can view the textbooks on a computer, but the contents can also be projected on a screen, printed chapter by chapter, or bound in their entirety" (Source) California's Digital Textbook Initiative link which list free textbooks that correlates to California's state standards for anyone interested.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Ds is a techno nerd, and he can't stand reading a book on a screen. I have problems with reading and prefer a physical copy for note taking, etc. I know some schools have been doing this for a few years now. I would try to order a hard copy in subject where it might be problematic to be completely virtual. In our case that would be most of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 We had M/L Biology in print and digital format. Ds never even cracked the physical book, he preferred digital. It does show a 2 page spread though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 We had M/L Biology in print and digital format. Ds never even cracked the physical book, he preferred digital. It does show a 2 page spread though. How big is his screen? The OP was talking about a laptop. I could definitely not decipher the print if a double page was on my screen. (The books I referred to in my post definitely show a double page, the students just can't see anything.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara H Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It is the norm for the public schools in our area. It is a very individual thing and it does depend on the quality of the book. Reading digital texts does not work well for the learners at my house. We've sometimes had the option of saving money on college texts by getting the digital version, but it is too frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It would not exactly bother me, but I find it impractical if the textbooks are actually to be read. If they merely contain assorted problems and assignments, not so much. I have talked to several of my college students who have electronic versions of their textbooks, and they all disliked it because you can't see a double page on the screen and can not easily flip back and forth between pages. With the eText of Knight Jones, you go to the various sub-chapters and it looks on the screen like that is all there is. Only if you hit next page do you go on to the other pages in the section. I find it quite disorienting. And it is just about impossible to consult multiple pages at once the way I can if I put a couple bookmarks in to easily find important formulas and concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 How big is his screen? The OP was talking about a laptop. I could definitely not decipher the print if a double page was on my screen. (The books I referred to in my post definitely show a double page, the students just can't see anything.) Gotcha. We all use laptops, no large screens. We definitely zoom into a single page to read, but there are times you want to see illustrations and get the feel for the whole spread and you can. I don't know if ds could read with a two page spread open. I couldn't, but His eyes are better than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 We prefer books for many reasons... It's harder to look at the text together on the screen due to angles of light. I think kids will happen to open the book to other pages and find interesting things to read.... There's an enormous completely uncharted territory of having children spend so much time with screens. If you search for studies about the efficacy etc of the online programs, there is a paucity of data....I prefer a few courses online, for experience, with lots of offline work... It is extremely hard to monitor what kids are doing, even when in the same room. Some kids become quite adept at changing pages/windows/etc and doing very unuseful stuff below the radar. Online experiences can be quite addicting and some kids really don't know how to control themselves. I don't believe in 'no' access, just limited access so kids can learn the ropes without having them as their only lifeline. Time - I'm still not convinced that online work doesn't take a lot of time....I notice how time can just 'disappear' while reading posts on the Hive, researching this and that...With a net total of ?...It can be very hard to quantify.... The ephemeralness of having all my books in one gadget - to be lost, stolen, etc is beyond my imagination. I love to underline and make notes in books and while I realize that is possible in ebooks....to have put all that energy into all those books which can then get lost, waterlogged, etc in one blow is incomprehensible. With physical books, well each one could get lost, loaned or ruined, but not all at once. There are all the size and texture differences which help the experience of each individual book be different and I think affect how memories are made. I can't imagine the sterility of a world where all books are just on a Kindle type of gadget. A young publisher, James Bridle, talks about it in a TED talk .. Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nscribe Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 :iagree: With Joan's post. I would add that a book is a very tactile experience. Books have their own aroma, pages make sounds as they turn, they age... if my digital device started created aromas as I read, I might have to stomp it. I am ok with my books living, I am not okay with digital devices liviing. One is comforting, the other eerie and disturbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhschool Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 I like books for learning. And yes, it would really bother me if all of DS's books were on a kindle and I couldn't get the books or he wasn't allowed to bring them to school or whatever. I'm good with digital formats as an option that is available, but not as the only option. In addition to, yes, not instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 I have a funny story...dh insisted on getting dd a Kindle for her birthday, coming soon. (She had been begging for one and I had said "after you're 18, we've done enough experimenting on your brain as it is".) But we were just in the bookstore the other day and she found Michel Strogoff and bought it. She really likes the book, the way it is written in French and the paper even. When my dh saw the receipt, he said she should return the book and find it free online (which it is on Gutenberg.org I just found out). Now she doesn't want to give up this paper book! I am SO happy :-) Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanM Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 Wow, I've been off-line for a few days (I'm the OP), but I'm so happy to see that I'm not alone in thinking that digital texts aren't necessarily better. To answer the question of screen size, I just don't know. It is a brick & mortar charter school, but they haven't opened yet, so it's hard to tell what it will be like. The director told us that the school would give every student a chrome book, and that all of their texts would be on the computer, no paper books in the school. My ds initially was outraged, but has since decided it might not be that bad. I don't think the school would pay for printing, and I don't think we could manage to print everything for him. There are pros and cons to this school, and I'm trying to figure out whether the lack of paper books is a big con. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I am with Joan on this one. My oldest son did Connections Academy last year for eleventh grade. Significant computer time was spent engaged in activities other than academics while online. Our desktop screen is large and can be seen from most areas of the room, but a mom has to leave the room sometimes to use the facilities, do laundry, etc. :tongue_smilie: Backs, necks, hands, and eyes hurt after six hours on the computer "learning." Homework or classwork can only be done with a computer. If your Internet service is disturbed, you are out of luck, sometimes right before a crucial deadline. Also, if a test has been posted online, the answers are posted online. You as a parent must be extremely diligent. I need to see a couple of years of testing that is conducted by professional educators before I will be convinced that the results are better. What I would caution is that embracing the latest technological trend is not always a sign of being "ahead of the times." Online education and the movement of texts to computer-only is a HUGE business. No one is doing this out of the kindness of their heart or for the desire to improve our children's education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 This is becoming normal in the public schools in our area. Most of the comments I've heard have been positive.We rarely experience internet interruption or power outages in our area so that has not been a factor. Most laptops have some sort of battery life and so do tablets, so the idea of being restricted to certain locations near an outlet haven't materialized. I do have to admit that the biggest challenge in picking a location to 'do school' for my own kids has been the availability of wifi since our town does not have free public access except at the library and some restaurants. Most of the commentary about what actually HAS been a factor in deciding whether the digital text changeover has been positive or not has usually had to do with the format of the individual books. Apparently some are laid out well and easy to use while others are apparently more difficult or poorly organized. We've tried Connections Academy and found their digital books (also marketed as Pearson Homeschool curriculum) to be very well laid out. In fact, my daughter preferred to use the digital text over the physical one (rolling her eyes at me when I asked if I could use the physical book to check her work). Connections sent us the physical textbooks as a matter of routine, we didn't request them. There was a learning curve, but after that my kids were adept at getting around in the digital texts and preferred to do that over using the physical book. My kids also never spent five or six hours straight on the computer either. It seemed to me like they would be on the computer for awhile then move to offline work in each subject. In any event, many people spend all day on screens for employment purposes and seem to tolerate that just fine. As for the kids wasting time on the computer and not doing schoolwork, I respectfully suggest that is a parenting issue and should be addressed as one. My own experience is that if a child wants to waste time they are perfectly capable of doing so, even when limited to paper and pencil. My own kids are not allowed to use screens for any purpose other than school until their assigned schoolwork is completed and accepted by me, then they have unrestricted access to kindles, laptops, the Wii, ect. They are not avid screen users, and I think this may be because it isn't a big deal in our house. If I had to worry about anyone spending too much time online, it wouldn't be the kids....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 As for the kids wasting time on the computer and not doing schoolwork, I respectfully suggest that is a parenting issue and should be addressed as one. My own experience is that if a child wants to waste time they are perfectly capable of doing so, even when limited to paper and pencil. My own kids are not allowed to use screens for any purpose other than school until their assigned schoolwork is completed and accepted by me, then they have unrestricted access to kindles, laptops, the Wii, ect. They are not avid screen users, and I think this may be because it isn't a big deal in our house. If I had to worry about anyone spending too much time online, it wouldn't be the kids....... You are most fortunate that you are such a skilled parent with such virtuous children. JeanM, Most textbooks are currently online, at least for many of the high school books that I have looked at. You are often able to find a sample chapter to read. Have your student spend some time reading the texts. See what your student thinks. All three of my kids are fairly computer-savvy and are heavy user, especially the younger one. None of them prefer to do ALL of their reading on a computer screen. A common comment for them is that they don't feel as though they have absorbed the material as well. That is just one family's experience. Rainfoxe offered you a different one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Backs, necks, hands, and eyes hurt after six hours on the computer "learning." Homework or classwork can only be done with a computer. Yes, you're kind of trapped... I need to see a couple of years of testing that is conducted by professional educators before I will be convinced that the results are better. Yes - REAL studies, not done by the company involved in making a profit from it.. What I would caution is that embracing the latest technological trend is not always a sign of being "ahead of the times." Online education and the movement of texts to computer-only is a HUGE business. No one is doing this out of the kindness of their heart or for the desire to improve our children's education. YES - it is a huge money-making business! db had to help create an online high school science course for his school district because they were worried about all the money that was being lost as students flowed to these online courses where the state then had to pay the company or something like that.... In any event, many people spend all day on screens for employment purposes and seem to tolerate that just fine. Well those are adults who have reached bodily maturity presumably and we're talking about teens who are still in development...but even so, there are health problems for adults....I haven't taken a lot of time to search at all as it's not my family's problem...but here's a Wiki article...Computer-induced medical problems. Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Joan in Geneva, are you game to talk further about digital education? What started as an idle pastime looking at companies like K12 and Pearson while my son was doing Connections Academy has become a bit of an obsession for me. The financial game in online education is enormous and I am not sure the American public is going to like what we are giving up in exchange for a "computer for every child." To my mind, the question goes way beyond "paper vs. computer textbooks." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Aside from the dislike from "normal" learners, I wonder about those with disabilities, even milder ones. I have astigmatism, which I think affects how long and how much I can read online. We also have spotty Internet and loading issues (area issue even though we have hi-speed Internet). It's very distracting right now if we're trying to do anything online. What about kids with issues with online discipline. It's not like handing the kid a real book and boy they might get in trouble with a book, they don't have access to other books or facebook or Angry Birds while they're reading. I'm not anti-technology. My son has his own computer in his room, he has Internet access and has no issues. I think this is a larger issue too because technology is going that way. I love Star Trek and remember thinking how cool it would be have a tablet computer to use. The question needs to remain, what is the best way to educate our children, all of them. Not a money grab with the latest cool gadget. Computers are one way to save paper and still be able to update books every too often. I just think common sense needs to be applied to the issue as well, without thinking anyone who objects is old-fashioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Aside from the dislike from "normal" learners, I wonder about those with disabilities, even milder ones. I have astigmatism, which I think affects how long and how much I can read online. We also have spotty Internet and loading issues (area issue even though we have hi-speed Internet). It's very distracting right now if we're trying to do anything online. What about kids with issues with online discipline. It's not like handing the kid a real book and boy they might get in trouble with a book, they don't have access to other books or facebook or Angry Birds while they're reading. I won't like a textbook that need internet access to read. I won't have a problem with textbooks that are in pdf format and preloaded onto the student's laptop/tablet. I can disable internet access on my boy's ipads and they would still be able to read their textbooks in pdf format anywhere they like. We sometimes have a problem with the small font size on the paper textbook, it is nice to be able to blow that up on a digital copy. I also pipe my laptop output to my 32" tv screen when I want to see clearly. My dad needs a magnifier for textbooks which was why I bought him an ipad. However textbooks and classwork being dependent on the internet is not healthy in terms of hours staring at the screen and also in terms of families that could not afford a fast internet connection. This news article "The web-deprived study at McDonald's" highlights the social issues of being internet dependent for school work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I'd like to offer some additional food for thought: How the Education Giant Adapts Education According to Mike Milken Report for Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Report to B.C.'s Teacher Foundation Boycott Pearson Now Education Inc: How Private Companies Profit from Public Education Former House Education Chairman Lobbying for Pearson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanM Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 I'm liking the idea of trying a digital book. I think we'll try to find a supplemental text that he can use right now, just to see how much it bothers him. I don't think they are planning to have the kids using the computers all the time during school, although maybe I'm wrong about that. I'm frustrated since it is a new school (not yet open), and they haven't figured out exactly how everything is going to work yet. Thanks for all the links, swimmermom3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Joan in Geneva, are you game to talk further about digital education? What started as an idle pastime looking at companies like K12 and Pearson while my son was doing Connections Academy has become a bit of an obsession for me. The financial game in online education is enormous and I am not sure the American public is going to like what we are giving up in exchange for a "computer for every child." To my mind, the question goes way beyond "paper vs. computer textbooks." Hi Lisa :-) I think you know much more than I do....I remember reading about Milken getting into this business and thinking...."this must be easy money!" That and little odds and ends here and there - like hearing from my brother all helped form my opinion but it is not nearly as well informed as yours with the articles you have just linked to.... I'm completely skeptical of these 'for profit' online education businesses, just like 'edutainment'. Thanks for those links which I'm going to look at now.... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Hi Lisa :-) I think you know much more than I do....I remember reading about Milken getting into this business and thinking...."this must be easy money!" That and little odds and ends here and there - like hearing from my brother all helped form my opinion but it is not nearly as well informed as yours with the articles you have just linked to.... I'm completely skeptical of these 'for profit' online education businesses, just like 'edutainment'. Thanks for those links which I'm going to look at now.... Joan Joan, I don't really know enough. I have an MBA and I enjoy following good companies, especially those that are proving to be adaptive in the new economic environment. When I first used some K12 products a few years ago, I was impressed at the quality of the materials. I started researching about the company and as we needed to use some other accredited online schools, I started looking at their materials too. When you look at where course materials come from, you begin to run into interesting ownership issues. Pearson acquired Connections Academy while my son was taking their classes. The undergraduate journalism major in me wants a handful of "old-school" investigative reporters to untangle this mess. In our race to embrace ALL online education, we have stopped being discerning. We aren't asking about lobbyists. We aren't asking about the credentials of those compiling our textbooks. The money is flowing out of the schools. We aren't asking who it is flowing to. We'll take all the free computers we can get without asking why we are getting them. We don't ask if local employers setting the education agenda for our kids is really a great idea for producing a well-rounded, literate, citizen capable of critical thinking. The MBA in me is fascinated at the long-term business plans, the foresight, the marketing brilliance, and the adaptability that players like Pearson have employed in the run for tax-payer dollars and I give grudging respect. The mother in me is slightly nauseated at the prospect of what "education" could look like in a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Joan, I don't really know enough. I have an MBA and I enjoy following good companies, especially those that are proving to be adaptive in the new economic environment. When I first used some K12 products a few years ago, I was impressed at the quality of the materials. I started researching about the company and as we needed to use some other accredited online schools, I started looking at their materials too. When you look at where course materials come from, you begin to run into interesting ownership issues. Pearson acquired Connections Academy while my son was taking their classes. The undergraduate journalism major in me wants a handful of "old-school" investigative reporters to untangle this mess. In our race to embrace ALL online education, we have stopped being discerning. We aren't asking about lobbyists. We aren't asking about the credentials of those compiling our textbooks. The money is flowing out of the schools. We aren't asking who it is flowing to. We'll take all the free computers we can get without asking why we are getting them. We don't ask if local employers setting the education agenda for our kids is really a great idea for producing a well-rounded, literate, citizen capable of critical thinking. The MBA in me is fascinated at the long-term business plans, the foresight, the marketing brilliance, and the adaptability that players like Pearson have employed in the run for tax-payer dollars and I give grudging respect. The mother in me is slightly nauseated at the prospect of what "education" could look like in a few years. The Bill and Melinda report seems quite interesting BUT I realized in reading it that I need to print it out to really study it! It reminded me of another pet peeve about digital documents....Dh would ask me to edit his docs and if they are long and complex docs it was almost impossible to do a really serious edit without a paper copy! To compare pages and ideas by scrolling back and forth - well, you need several computer screens to even approximate a simple printout! I don't know how online editors actually do it... And there is something about scrolling while skimming that makes me lose my train of thought. It's not like skimming the paper page which is staying in one place! And this brings me to the point of students trying to compare and contrast ideas - I think at some level it could easily change the critical thinking process - somehow make it not as critical.... Is there anyone out there who is really adept at editing large and complex papers all on one computer screen without any paper copy? So I can't really comment yet, but wanted to add this to the discussion, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Jean, I have a link for you: British Literature: Traditions and Change This is the text that Connections in our state used for 12th grade British Literature. It is a parallel text, so on the left side of the book, you have Beowulf in Old English and on the other side, a modern interpretation. On Connections official site, we could see the both pages, but even with a large monitor, it is some tiny reading if you need to refer to the parallel text. Perfection Learning puts out the text and it is fairly basic, especially for use in a 12th grade literature class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Reading this article made me think of this thread.... http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/12/13/167181498/ah-wilderness-nature-hike-could-unlock-your-imagination?ft=3&f=122101520&sc=nl&cc=sh-20121215 Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 It reminded me of another pet peeve about digital documents....Dh would ask me to edit his docs and if they are long and complex docs it was almost impossible to do a really serious edit without a paper copy! I have the same issue, Joan. I prefer to edit on paper copies. Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I have the same issue, Joan. I prefer to edit on paper copies. Regards, Kareni This is off topic but a related peeve... Yes, we just had a case of people not reading documents with a public service here. Now everything is scanned and uploaded....Well, when they are scrolling through all those pages, it seems easy to miss even recent documents! They ended up giving us 3000 francs too much! I would have liked that extra money but my conscience doesn't allow that kind of thing so I had to take the time to call them up and explain their error. And then another service was not reading documents which meant that they weren't giving us money due! Again it's me that has to call up and finally go for a personal visit.... I don't like digital systems - but with all the paper storage problems, I don't ever see them going back.... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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