I am ready to throw WWE 4 out the window...

[Mommy22alyns]

Rebecca and I are hating it. It's causing so much frustration and even tears for her. She does fairly well with narration, but those dictation paragraphs are KILLING us! Should we persevere or is there something short and inexpensive I could do for the rest of the year?

 

I think I'm going with IEW ancient theme for next year.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh, if you want to throw it out the window, then do!

 

We were done, done, done with WWE by exactly the same place last year - spring of 4th grade, 9.5 years old. She had narrations down solid. We started WWS, at a relaxed pace, and were very happy. If IEW is your next plan, just start! Do it now!

 

I love WWE for the early years, but I think strong writers need more by 4th grade. The skill practice is great, but once you've got it, you are ready to move on! I don't think SWB would disagree . . .

[Unicorn.]

I didn't do dictation w/ my kids, and the world didn't come to an end! In fact, I threw writing out the window all together for ds, as he absolutely hated it. We talked about it, and maybe did some outlining, and discussed how to put thoughts to paper, and maybe did a tiny bit of writing 3-4 times a year. He picked up about 8th grade (he's a sophomore) and he writes very well. He's getting A's in a writing intensive History AP class now. He's a bit slow, but that is due to his AD/HD.

 

Do what works for your child. That's the beauty of homeschooling; being able to tailor their education to what works for them.

[Joyful_Journey]

We also tossed the dictations when they became too difficult (it was causing way too much frustration and tears). We just kept going with the narrations and then moved on to IEW Level A. We are now doing WWS and love it! I rather regret IEW now, as the methods being taught in WWS are so much better in my opinion. If I could go back and do it again, I would have finished WWE 4 narrations in 4th grade and then started through WWS in 5th grade at a slow pace.

[TarynB]

Try making the dictations shorter. Even SWB didn't do the long dictations as written in WWE with her kids. She broke it down into shorter phrases and repeated it many, many times. Check out this video of

to see her method in action.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I don't do dictations in WWE past about the middle of WWE3. Here is my opinion, if your interested:

 

When, in the rest of your dc's life, are they going to be required to take dictation of a long passage word for word? Even in college when taking notes they are going to paraphrase. I know the purpose of this exercise is to be able to train the brain to hold long strings of thought until they can be written down, but come on...WHO composes whole paragraphs in their head before putting them onto paper? Not to mention, holding ones own thoughts and the thoughts of someone else are two completely different things.

 

Here is what I do with the longer dictations, and I feel that it has been a greater benefit to providing my child with a usable skill: I read the passage and then my dc paraphrases the passage, picking out and recording the most important details, facts or idea in as short a sentence as possible. IMO, this will prove to be an invaluable skill later in life when faced with classes where taking notes is needed.

 

I'm sure there are dc out there who can do these passages, but I've honestly never heard of them on these boards or irl. It is a real shame that those dictations cause so many people to drop an otherwise great program.

 

I agree with those up-thread that said that if your dc has narrations\summaries down pat there is no real reason to carry on with WWE4. SWB has said that she considers WWE4 to be optional. WWS at a slow pace or , if you don't feel your dc is quiet ready for it but needing more than just narrations, taking a year to work on the stylistic techniques presented in IEW would be a great next step.

[mo2]

SWB has said that she considers WWE4 to be optional.

 

 

 

I'm curious---Where/when did she say this?

[5LittleMonkeys]

It's in the big WWS thread somewhere. I'll try to find it in a bit and link it for you.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I found it...

 

It's post #273.

[Joyful_Journey]

 

When, in the rest of your dc's life, are they going to be required to take dictation of a long passage word for word? Even in college when taking notes they are going to paraphrase. I know the purpose of this exercise is to be able to train the brain to hold long strings of thought until they can be written down, but come on...WHO composes whole paragraphs in their head before putting them onto paper? Not to mention, holding ones own thoughts and the thoughts of someone else are two completely different things.

 

Here is what I do with the longer dictations, and I feel that it has been a greater benefit to providing my child with a usable skill: I read the passage and then my dc paraphrases the passage, picking out and recording the most important details, facts or idea in as short a sentence as possible. IMO, this will prove to be an invaluable skill later in life when faced with classes where taking notes is needed.

 

 

:iagree:

[UrbanSue]

The point of dictation is to teach your child to hold words--his own words--in his head long enough to write them down. If she can do that, you're good.

 

Also, we use the WWE instructor's book and use McGuffey for selections. The guidelines in the Complete Writer are way less strenuous than what is provided in the student workbooks. Adapt away. Or chuck it altogether if she's ready to move on.

[mo2]

I found it...

 

It's post #273.

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to look that up for me!

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to look that up for me!

 

Your welcome! I really do wish she would make that a sticky at top of the K8 board. I think it would be a relief to so many people.

[faiths13]

So if WWE is optional, would you start WWS in it's place in 4th grade? That seems a little early?

[TarynB]

So if WWE is optional, would you start WWS in it's place in 4th grade? That seems a little early?

 

Instead of that, I'd utilize and master the skills learned in WWE by writing across the curriculum, esp. in content subjects like history and literature. Then start WWS when the student is developmentally ready, rather than starting WWS by default.

[5LittleMonkeys]

So if WWE is optional, would you start WWS in it's place in 4th grade? That seems a little early?

 

 

I think it completely depends on the child. Rose is having success with WWS with a young dc, but I know my now 4th grader wouldn't have been ready for it. This year and part of next she is perfecting her narration\summary skills and utilizing IEW stylistic technique skills across the curricula. I predict she will be ready to start WWS by the middle of her 5th grade year, but we will probably go at a slower pace. Composition skills aren't something to rush, but at the same time you don't want your dc to stagnate in their progression. You have to know your own child's abilities and how much they can be stretched.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think it completely depends on the child. Rose is having success with WWS with a young dc, but I know my now 4th grader wouldn't have been ready for it. This year and part of next she is perfecting her narration\summary skills and utilizing IEW stylistic technique skills across the curricula. I predict she will be ready to start WWS by the middle of her 5th grade year, but we will probably go at a slower pace. Composition skills aren't something to rush, but at the same time you don't want your dc to stagnate in their progression. You have to know your own child's abilities and how much they can be stretched.

 

 

I am using it successfully with my 5th grader, and we did do the first 10 lessons in 4th grade . . . but keep in mind that we are using it at a slower pace, too. It is fantastic, dd is learning so much from it, but we are not marching along, 4 days a week every week. We have just come off of a 2-week break (during which we read and discussed two chapters of Essay Voyage and she did some writing across the curriculum), in fact, and it was such a good thing, we are actually really happy to be getting back to it! So I think that it can definitely be used with a strong writer who is developmentally ready, but I think it's important to be sensitive to your young writer's stamina, speed, and need for a breather at times. With that caveat, then I think our experience shows that it can be used very successfully with a young, strong writer!

 

I will add one more caveat: for the first 18 weeks of WWS, I didn't make dd do any additional writing - if I wanted her to write about a book, or history, we didn't do WWS writing that day. It was too much to do both. That was the right choice at the time: now, however, I've added back in history writing along with WWS. Now, she can handle it! Which is a great development. But don't be afraid to ease up on other writing while starting a young writer on WWS. You'll know when you can add it back in.

[Chrysalis Academy]

So if WWE is optional, would you start WWS in it's place in 4th grade? That seems a little early?

 

I would spend some time on two skills: 1) make sure narration skills are rock solid, and 2) work on paragraphing. WWS assumes kids know how to paragraph, without explicitly teaching it, and WWE doesn't teach it either. This is an oversight to my mind. So, I would work through something like MCT's Paragraph Town or some other resource that explicitly teaches paragraphing, or just work on that skill on your own, before you start WWS.

 

Writing across the curriculum, not using a program, in the way described in SWB's Middle Grades writing lecture, is an excellent option, and in retrospect, perhaps that is what we should have done for the last 10 weeks of 4th grade, instead of starting WWS then, although it has all worked out fine in the end!

[texasmama]

When we reached frustration and saturation point with WWE3, I switched my older ds to Writing Tales. I have continued that pattern with ds2 and plan to use Writing Tales 1 and 2 with younger dd. Then, in 5th grade, the two youngest will begin WWS. So that is what we did when we could endure it no more. :)

[Mukmuk]

Throwing in another situation here. Ds is a strong reader who hasn't written much (nothing to hang your hat on) till this year (he's had a host of writing/language issues that are ebbing). He's doing WWE4 narration and dictation with good success. Because he's older in starting with the idea of narration, he's actually picked up quickly and might be ready to move on soon. Problem is, he's not ready for WWS, and he dislikes IEW. I've been following Rose's posts and will try for paragraphing in about 5 weeks when MCT's Sentence Island draws to a close and we start on the town level. I may even try for paragraphing with Kilgallon as a stop gap measure (he's starting to complain about narrations being repetitious), and start to fan out writing across the curriculum, which we are not doing currently (baby steps for us!). I feel your pain about the dictation though. It's hard!

[Forgiven]

So glad to read this thread. I stopped using WWE for both my 2nd grader and my 4th grader because neither of them liked the dictation days. If I told my 2nd grader that it wasn't a dictation day, he loved it and did well, but when he had to write dictations, he would crumble. I'll have to pick it back up and only do narrations. He rocked at that, as does my 4th grader. Of course, my 4th grader has been creative writing since she was six years old, so she's never had a problem with getting thought to paper.

 

We're finishing up MCT's Island level with both of them. DD (4th grader is already finished). I was going to wait until next year to start Town, but I guess I should start it now so that she can get some paragraphing under her belt...

 

Thanks for this thread!

[EKS]

If you like WWE otherwise, just skip the dictation. You have my permission!

 

As for next year, WWS is really, really good.

[Penelope]

We still did dictations of similar length but took them from his literature instead. There was no revolt that way, lol.

 

Same with the narrations, He wrote across the curriculum.

[faiths13]

sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does writing across the curriculum mean?

[TarynB]

sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does writing across the curriculum mean?

 

 

Not at all! To me, it means doing narrations/summaries, outlining, and/or essays/literary analysis using source material from your content subjects such as history, science, and literature. I see that as the goal of the exercises in WWE (and eventually, WWS) . . . to be able to do it on your own using your own source material (your curricula) rather than the WWE workbook sources. Your "writing time" then becomes integrated into your "history time", for example. Hopefully others will chime in with their take as well.

[greenmamato3]

this is such a helpful thread! i'm going to start another thread addressing a specific problem i am trying to resolve in keeping with this 4thgrade/5thgrade transition, etc, so as to not hijack.... but i have one question for here, though:

I may even try for paragraphing with Kilgallon as a stop gap measure (he's starting to complain about narrations being repetitious), and start to fan out writing across the curriculum, which we are not doing currently (baby steps for us!). I feel your pain about the dictation though. It's hard!

 

which kilgallon would be the right fit for your situation? i'm in almost the identical boat, which is the reason i ask. i have on my shelf the yellow kilgallon sentence composing (elementary) and the aqua story grammar. would either of those fit the bill?

or would i need the middle school level? we've never actually done any kilgallon.

[nansk]

sorry if this is a dumb question' date=' but what does writing across the curriculum mean?[/quote']

Not at all! To me, it means doing narrations/summaries, outlining, and/or essays/literary analysis using source material from your content subjects such as history, science, and literature. . . . to be able to do it on your own using your own source material (your curricula) rather than the WWE workbook sources. Your "writing time" then becomes integrated into your "history time", for example. Hopefully others will chime in with their take as well.

 

:iagree: Beth, see pages 25 - 32 of this handout.

[Donna A.]

When, in the rest of your dc's life, are they going to be required to take dictation of a long passage word for word? Even in college when taking notes they are going to paraphrase. I know the purpose of this exercise is to be able to train the brain to hold long strings of thought until they can be written down, but come on...WHO composes whole paragraphs in their head before putting them onto paper? Not to mention, holding ones own thoughts and the thoughts of someone else are two completely different things.

 

Here is what I do with the longer dictations, and I feel that it has been a greater benefit to providing my child with a usable skill: I read the passage and then my dc paraphrases the passage, picking out and recording the most important details, facts or idea in as short a sentence as possible. IMO, this will prove to be an invaluable skill later in life when faced with classes where taking notes is needed.

 

I'm sure there are dc out there who can do these passages, but I've honestly never heard of them on these boards or irl. It is a real shame that those dictations cause so many people to drop an otherwise great program.

 

I took dictation of long passages word for word many times a week for several years before I became a SAHM.... when I worked for lawyers. ;)

 

Dictation is a completely different skill than note-taking in college class. And unless something has dramatically changed in the workplace during the past 17 years due to technology (which is possible, I admit), something which negates the need for secretaries and assistants to take dictation, there are many areas out there where one might use dictation in their job. Being a secretary or assistant to *anybody* (not just lawyers), Bible interpretation, the field of journalism (hhmm... maybe if more journalists took word-for-word dictation rather than just paraphrasing, there would a lot less propaganda in the media, and less lies spread through politics? Ever heard of anyone taking something out of context?) Paraphrasing takes words or thoughts out of context and promotes inaccuracy in virtually every area of life. Would you paraphrase when someone is verbally giving you a recipe to the best dish you've ever tasted in your life... and expect to remember it accurately when you're ready to make the dish? If I were working for your lawyer, would you want me to get the dictation RIGHT, word for word, or would paraphrasing in my own words be good enough? How about orders from a military commander? Would it be okay for a Lieutenant to paraphrase the Commander's orders to his platoon, or do you think word-for-word dictation would bring better results?

 

Now granted, you don't need WWE 4 to learn how to take good dictation. But it's incorrect to say the skill isn't necessary. ;)

 

Carry on! :001_smile:

[tammyw]

I liked WWE for a short while, but it just didn't suit our family. We moved onto using Bravewriter's Arrow lessons. They have a little copywork or dictation at the beginning of each lesson, then it breaks it down into grammar lessons and such.

 

I honestly couldn't have done the more advanced WWE dictations. I feel okay about not using it.