Common core in a nut shell for those interested. You may be alarmed!

[TracyP]

Jen offered great examples of expository writing for k and first from ps?. Maybe, it's just me, but I don't remember writing that stuff until end of 4th, or 5th when I was in school. Maybe gen x was the less intelligent generation? Yes, I hope my kids are smarter, but after looking at it, and we've done wwe1 and 1/2 of wwe2 neither of which does expository writing. And were created by our favorite WTM authors. You can see the plethora of curricula in my sig line. Marry all this classical Ed stuff with these standards, and tell me where they line up to cc. How could you implement this stuff and still maintain the WTM way of teaching with WTM curricula? It takes my average gr 2 ds 45 minutes a day just to summarize what's given and we are at week 24 of WWE 2. I have been tiger momming it unfortunately. How could you fit it ALL in, in what seems like 36 weeks to just finish wwe2? Do you see where I thought my kid was ahead and now behind? I am glad we aren't in public school, but maybe I should put my kid in? After all, their standards are higher than ours now... Let someone else take care of matching curricula? I get people telling me my son would have been red shirted, I started with abeka k3, and everyone in the homeschool communities told me to take it easy on my young ones. I guess not? Or maybe i should? Finland doesn't start school until age 7. And they rank ahead of us in national standards. So what is a classical educator to do?

 

 

(to the bolded) Why would you try? I am asking this rhetorically, because this is a personal decision for each one of us. Maybe you have reasons to teach to CC, but I have zero intentions of trying to line up with state standards. *My* standards are the same as they have always been and they are the only standards that matter in my homeschool.

 

That said, I think most kids should be doing more writing than just WWE and so does SWB according to TWTM. I also think that if WWE is taking you 45 min, it might not be a good fit for your dc. That's probably for another thread....

[Corraleno]

Marry all this classical Ed stuff with these standards, and tell me where they line up to cc. How could you implement this stuff and still maintain the WTM way of teaching with WTM curricula?

 

 

If you're not planning to put your kids in school, then you don't have to line things up. Just look at the standards for HS, and make sure you're there by 10th grade or so, when testing starts. If you think they might go to PS for HS, then aim to meet the standards by 8th grade. It doesn't really matter if you're a little "behind" in some areas and "ahead" in other areas, as long as you get where you need to be, when you need to be there.

 

Personally, I don't like or use WTM methods for LA, so lining them up with CC isn't an issue for me. We already meet most of the CC standards, and we will meet or exceed all of them before high school, so I don't worry about lining things up year by year.

 

Jackie

[dereksurfs]

Yes, I agree with all the above regarding CC in a homeschool environment. I am not going to try to mimic PS or line up item for item with CC in the same way we don't do that now with our current State standard. That is one of the benefits of homeschooling. You don't have to follow the PS or any script like the teachers do who many times end up 'teaching to the test' instead of the subject at hand. Its the long term that is the objective as Jackie mentioned. There are many paths to reach similar objectives in a variety of subjects whether it be in writing, math, science, etc... Accepting the fact the your state adopts CC or any other state standard and trying to follow it line by line starting in Kindergarten while homeschooling are two entirely different propositions. While its ok to look it over there is no reason to change course as long as your long term objectives are aimed at meeting or exceeding these minimum standards. So in that sense you may not be behind at all since you don't have marry CC. Maybe it can help to revise longer term goals or maybe no revision is needed. It may help some homeschool parents who aim too low academically without realizing it.

[Hottater]

So, I should go to an umbrella (paid)that aligns with a different long term goal? You have to understand- this was coming from my state reviewer, which means that countless other family's that have reviews from their state or county will probably face these same issues. Once someone sets a standard it affects most of us and now that it is federally adopted - we have to decidedly avoid their pamphlets about cc- who go to county reviewers (free) to not feel behind and justify to them, that we don't care about their standard, or else we should integrate their standard, because that is what they will expect in their review of our children. I find this affects us homeschoolers. I now have my answer to how this affects me and maybe be better equipped to make a standards decision for my child, but still not happy that I had to undergo that review, made to feel stupid that writing prompts weren't introduced to my children, now thinking that maybe that their system still stinks, and just want something that works for my kid. Pass me the tinfoil 1630's dunce cap. (Oh wait, no tinfoil back then...) Here's the why I considered marrying the cc to my homeschool. What if I had to put my kids in ps? Being prepared to enter a public school as a viable option is important to me. Wouldn't it be the best to have them have that choice? Now he is behind their standard, and currently, I am limited to homeschooling only now because if he attempted to goto ps, he would fail because they've supposedly covered items we have not and build onto their foundation. Same with my entering kinder gardener. I no longer have that option, because who would, put their kid into ps knowing they would have already failed the public school standard. But according to the curriculum choices with the methods I have used we thought we were doing well. So do I fail or pass as a suitable teacher?

[dereksurfs]

So, I should go to an umbrella (paid)that aligns with a different long term goal? You have to understand- this was coming from my state reviewer, which means that countless other family's that have reviews from their state or county will probably face these same issues. Once someone sets a standard it affects most of us and now that it is federally adopted - we have to decidedly avoid their pamphlets about cc- who go to county reviewers (free) to not feel behind and justify to them, that we don't care about their standard, or else we should integrate their standard, because that is what they will expect in their review of our children. I find this affects us homeschoolers. I now have my answer to how this affects me and maybe be better equipped to make a standards decision for my child, but still not happy that I had to undergo that review, made to feel stupid that writing prompts weren't introduced to my children, now thinking that maybe that system still stinks, and just want something that works for my kid. Pass me the tinfoil 1630's dunce cap.

 

These are good and valid questions. Since many of us do not have 'State Reviewers' we haven't had to ask ourselves similar questions. It will be good to hear other responses as well, but I'll give my perspective on it. I would listen to the reviewer, look over the brochures/pamphlets, politely thank him/her for their time, then consider if any recommendations make sense with my goals even in a limited way. For example could I do some basic prompts every now and then? Would that add anything to what we are doing now? Would it help/hurt to it? Maybe, maybe not. I think someone earlier shared some basic prompts which may be age appropriate for a young child for example. Bottom line is that its still your *choice* and therefore every home will respond to these recommendations differently. Maybe an umbrella group will make you feel more comfortable and therefore worth the extra cost. Sometimes those come with other benefits as well. I think it would give you a good 'local' soundboard to discuss your concerns with regards to CC alignment in both the short and longer term. I think they would probably tell you that this is more than a black and white, all or nothing proposition. But it still may be worth it to have that umbrella and no Reviewers to deal with. ;)

[dereksurfs]

It might help if we knew what state you are in.

I also asked and she said MD above.

[regentrude]

I totally feel a socialist educational system around the bend.

 

LOL. Having actually attended public school in a socialist system, I received an education that was far superior to what goes on in the majority of US public schools. So did students in other socialist countries (as some board members will attest to). Public schools as good as in the former Soviet Union or East Germany - oh man, WHAT an improvement that would be!

 

(To clarify: I have a LOT of things to criticize about socialism. But the educational system is most definitely not one of them.)

[Corraleno]

So, I should go to an umbrella (paid)that aligns with a different long term goal? You have to understand- this was coming from my state reviewer, which means that countless other family's that have reviews from their state or county will probably face these same issues. Once someone sets a standard it affects most of us and now that it is federally adopted - we have to decidedly avoid their pamphlets about cc- who go to county reviewers (free) to not feel behind and justify to them, that we don't care about their standard, or else we should integrate their standard, because that is what they will expect in their review of our children.

 

 

You need to read your state homeschooling laws and find out exactly what is legally required of you. If homeschoolers are not required to meet PS standards, then you don't have to justify anything. If the reviewer asks why you have not met CSS/PS standards, just say "Because I am not legally required to meet them. I set my own standards, which I feel are appropriate for my children, and that is my legal right as a homeschooler in this state."

 

Jackie

[regentrude]

. What if I had to put my kids in ps? Being prepared to enter a public school as a viable option is important to me. Wouldn't it be the best to have them have that choice? Now he is behind their standard, and currently, I am limited to homeschooling only now because if he attempted to goto ps, he would fail because they've supposedly covered items we have not and build onto their foundation. Same with my entering kinder gardener. I no longer have that option, because who would, put their kid into ps knowing they would have already failed the public school standard. But according to the curriculum choices with the methods I have used we thought we were doing well. So do I fail or pass as a suitable teacher?

 

 

There is so much repetition and redundancy in public school that being "behind" will hardly ever matter- except perhaps in math. Just because a kid may not pass the "standard" does not mean the kid can not do very well in public school.

When my kids attended public school, there was such a widespread discrepancy of abilities in the same classroom, even though all kids did attend public school, that I can not imagine that a kid who was actually home educated (and not simply left to rot) and who does not have any learning disabilities could not simply join his same age peers and be fine.

IMO, "standards" are completely overrated.

[regentrude]

I am confused why more people are not concerned about CC affecting homeschoolers. At the very least, it will affect our curriculum choices. But I don't believe that the standards are only going to apply to public schools.

 

 

Why would it affect my curriculum choices? Whatever goes on in ps does not affect my curriculum selection at present, and I fail to see how it would be in the future.

And judging from what goes on in ps, the bar hangs so ridiculously low that it should be easy to exceed any imposed "standards".

No, I see no reason to be concerned.

[boscopup]

 

 

Why would it affect my curriculum choices? Whatever goes on in ps does not affect my curriculum selection at present, and I fail to see how it would be in the future.

And judging from what goes on in ps, the bar hangs so ridiculously low that it should be easy to exceed any imposed "standards".

No, I see no reason to be concerned.

 

Exactly. If you weren't under your state standards before CCS, you aren't automatically under them now. CCS itself has nothing to do with homeschool. My state only requires me to report absences and be registered with a church school. When they adopted CCS, that didn't change.

[redsquirrel]

I live in NY, a 'high regulation' state, and CC doesn't effect me at all. I have to report everything we use, its educational purpose, and the scope of what we cover. I have to make a yearly educational plan and submit it for approval I didn't even know that NY is a CC state, and it adopted CC standards two years ago. CC hasn't changed any reporting guidelines at all.

[Arcadia]

States have Common Core Standards for PreK

 

California's Preschool Math Standards for Common Core http://www.sdcoe.net/lret2/pdf/ci/PreschoolLearning_Math.pdf

New York PreK Standard "New York State Prekindergarten Foundation for the Common Core"

Maryland's PreK Math Standards for Common Core http://mdk12.org/share/frameworks/CCSC_Math_grpk.pdf

Massachusetts PreK ELA Standards incorporating Common Core

http://www.doe.mass.edu/frameworks/ela/0311.pdf

[Hottater]

There has always been a philosophical difference between what the school districts do vs. what classical homeschoolers do when it comes to writing. When my oldest was in public school, their goal was to get the kids used to writing by drilling it into them. Don't worry about spelling, write phonetically, we'll fix that part later. Just get the pencil to paper and build up those writing muscles so you can perform for the standardized tests later. He came home with so many writing assignments and he did build a tolerance for it, but it killed any kind of interest in it.

 

SWB put it best in her Why Writing Programs Fail sample from her WWE Instructor Text. So, yes they are at odds. If you do plan to ever put them in school, it probably is a good idea to follow along with what the school districts are doing. I don't think their standards are higher than classical, just philosophically different. If you are looking to the end goal of excellent writing, WWE is working for you and you don't plan to actually put them in school, then WWE/WWS will ultimately have them writing better than the ps kids.

 

I do like to have them write more, so I have them write about something they are interested in. JJ usually writes and draws a picture about an animal for his animal study report. H likes to make up stories. I have her narrate the story for me, write it down and have her write it correctly. I also found First Writing Prompts that really help them express their opinions and gives me ideas for writing for fun. I don't drill it though and I don't do it often.

 

I would check this thread for curriculum that meets or exceeds CC standards if you have to match curriculum.

 

Jen, thanks for that. I am not totally nuts and illogical. SWB says it best in her analogies. To clarify my point about our children not having a point of reference, I meant this paragraph by SWB.

 

From second grade on, rather than putting the written model in front of the student, you will dictate sentences to him. This will force him to bring his memory into play, to picture the sentence in his mind before writing it down. Eventually you’ll be dictating two and three sentences at a time to a student, encouraging him to hold longer and longer chunks of text in his mind as he writes.

Many students who struggle with writing put down sentences that are lacking in punctuation, capitalization, or spacing—a clue that they have never learned to picture written language in their minds. Others can tell you with great fluency exactly what they want to write; if you then say to them, “Great! Write that down!†they’ll ask, “What did I just say?†Both are clues that students have not learned to visualize sentences and hold them in mind—both essential if the student is ever going to get words down on paper. Moving from copywork to dictation develops these skills.

 

Every day I get the deer in headlights look about just putting things down. If he was given public school curriculum, he would probably be struggling to trying to help him come up with ideas. I feel my kid is the avg kid. I hear all the time that many parents are finishing their kids' homework for them. But I also pray that one day I wouldn't dread have to put him in PS even more than I do now. If I did, would he be ok? Maybe, maybe not. Most likely not, now that I am aware of what's going on in school- he'd be behind everyone that wasn't taught these prompts, with no prior knowledge, then suffer esteem issues of not doing well. Which would probably be not working at his pace. So I'd have to immerse him in other curricula to catch him up, leaving me overwhelmed. It takes long enough to complete what I already have. Therein lies the cramming hours of other "stuff" that is philosophically different and practically pencil to paper different. From what I gathered - SWB essay doesn't think that it's age appropriate. I seriously wonder if me- as an under qualified instructor in most things in advanced placement courses in high school would ever get confident enough to homeschool all the way past elementary or even 3rd grade. Cause economically speaking, affording lab equipment and all the other opportunities and some attention to things that I probably couldn't provide that a high school or even middle school does - puts me in a "grass is greener" mode of thinking, in some respects, and "heck no!" in regards to relationships, religious views, and curriculum control. This is why my being able to maintain that choice to be able to put my kid into PS is important to me.

 

My reporting guidelines are not changed. But just the fact that state evaluators may expect this from parents is not cool. My evaluator probably won't enforce it. Requiring it and looking for it is different, yes. But it's only one step away. KWIM? Very fine line.

[redsquirrel]

States have Common Core Standards for PreK

 

California's Preschool Math Standards for Common Core http://www.sdcoe.net...arning_Math.pdf

New York PreK Standard "New York State Prekindergarten Foundation for the Common Core"

Maryland's PreK Math Standards for Common Core http://mdk12.org/sha...C_Math_grpk.pdf

Massachusetts PreK ELA Standards incorporating Common Core

http://www.doe.mass....ks/ela/0311.pdf

 

I think that is a good idea. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 years or so we move to universal pre-k. I find myself supportive of that idea. One thing I do know about pre-k, and that is that the quality of the program makes a huge difference. Kids in a good pre-k program do well academically in later years. Those who are in a warehouse type pre-K don't see the same benefit. Having some sort of agreement about what minimum standards must be met makes it easier to determine if a pre-k program is any good. It allows a common vocabulary.

 

I live in NY and I see they have CC preK standards. NY does not have universal pre-K or mandatory pre-K. Right now, it is available in some public schools for kids at high risk of academic failure, but even then, the funding is pretty shaky. I know a couple years ago some districts cut it altogether.

[Arcadia]

I live in NY and I see they have CC preK standards. NY does not have universal pre-K or mandatory pre-K. Right now, it is available in some public schools for kids at high risk of academic failure, but even then, the funding is pretty shaky. I know a couple years ago some districts cut it altogether.

 

California had preK standards for several years and was used as guidance for Headstart programs. I think Headstart is run by the state and not the school districts. The school districts run the SN preschools. The common core standard for PreK would probably be used as a guide by the state run preschools here. Headstart is impacted by the sequester.

 

NY Headstart page http://www.nyheadstart.org/.

[Joker]

This has been an interesting thread!

 

My oldest has been in ps middle school the past two years. CC standards have been appearing slowly. I actually have been impressed with how it has changed how math is taught. They are taught how to not only do the math but to be able to explain it. On every test, including the EOCs, they have written/essay questions detailing their understanding of their own problem solving. It was difficult for all the students at first but it has made a huge difference in how they think and do math. I'm glad they're doing it this way.

 

The teachers plan together to have lessons and writing assignments line up and the students' understanding is deeper now. Dd will learn something in science or civics and then write about it language arts. They've been studying Julius Caesar for the past two months in LA and next week that study will filter into other classes.

 

It hasn't made things worse here.

[*Lulu*]

 

 

There is so much repetition and redundancy in public school that being "behind" will hardly ever matter- except perhaps in math. Just because a kid may not pass the "standard" does not mean the kid can not do very well in public school.

When my kids attended public school, there was such a widespread discrepancy of abilities in the same classroom, even though all kids did attend public school, that I can not imagine that a kid who was actually home educated (and not simply left to rot) and who does not have any learning disabilities could not simply join his same age peers and be fine.

IMO, "standards" are completely overrated.

 

I just wanted to point out that even in math there is a great deal of redundancy built in especially between 5th and 8th grade in an attempt to get everyone ready for algebra in 9th. It is one of the reasons so many districts can allow more accelerated learners to skip 8th grade math, it is a repeat of everything that has come before.

 

The only places I see in our school that we are "behind", for my neuro-typical kid, are those in which I reject the school's scope and sequence and are on an entirely different path. Even still, I am confident by high school that we will have surpassed the expectations of the local schools. Providing something better than the local schools was a huge part of why we started down the path of home education in the first place and part of what influences all of my curriculum choices.

[regentrude]

I just wanted to point out that even in math there is a great deal of redundancy built in especially between 5th and 8th grade in an attempt to get everyone ready for algebra in 9th. It is one of the reasons so many districts can allow more accelerated learners to skip 8th grade math, it is a repeat of everything that has come before.

 

I completely agree. In fact, one could easily skip grades 6 through 8 altogether, because there is really not much taught in Middle school.

 

I was thinking more about being severely behind, as in trouble with arithmetic when approaching high school.

[Tracy]

I was thinking more about being severely behind, as in trouble with arithmetic when approaching high school.

 

There is acutally a philosophy that says you can wait until 6th grade to teach any formal math, and the student will still be ready for Algebra by high school.

[Roadrunner]

Has anybody read Brookings paper on Common Core?

 

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/newsletters/0216_brown_education_loveless.pdf

 

 

"What effect will the Common Core have on national achievement? The analysis presented here suggests very little impact. The quality of the Common Core standards is currently being hotly debated, but the quality of past curriculum standards has been unrelated to achievement...... The Common Core may reduce variation in achievement between states, but as a source of achievement disparities, that is not where the action is. Within-state variation is four to five times greater."

 

 

"Standards in education are best understood as aspira- tional, and like a strict diet or prudent plan to save money for the future, they represent good intentions that are not often realized."

[Χά�ων]

 

There is acutally a philosophy that says you can wait until 6th grade to teach any formal math, and the student will still be ready for Algebra by high school.

 

 

Yep. This was my view but DS decided he really wanted to do math this year. He went from 0 math instruction to completely caught up in just a few months. He hates subtraction with a passion and we spent almost 2 months just on learning subtraction facts. Would have been less but he spent the time declare how evil subtraction was and trying to argue with me over subtraction. "But mom 3-5 is -2 so the order does not matter." If I ever have another child if they learn nothing else they will learn subtraction before they learn negative numbers!

 

We never spent more than 20 minutes a day on math and averaged 4 days a week. Except the two months I was sick and we did nothing...

[snowbeltmom]

 

"Standards in education are best understood as aspira- tional, and like a strict diet or prudent plan to save money for the future, they represent good intentions that are not often realized."

 

 

I guess that explains why over half of the students that attend my local schools are expected to fail the new state math test.

[Arcadia]

...Within-state variation is four to five times greater."

 

 

"Standards in education are best understood as aspira- tional, and like a strict diet or prudent plan to save money for the future, they represent good intentions that are not often realized."

 

I agree. Even within the same county, the disparity is stark. Standards are benchmark tools.

[Tracy]

Yep. This was my view but DS decided he really wanted to do math this year. He went from 0 math instruction to completely caught up in just a few months. He hates subtraction with a passion and we spent almost 2 months just on learning subtraction facts. Would have been less but he spent the time declare how evil subtraction was and trying to argue with me over subtraction. "But mom 3-5 is -2 so the order does not matter." If I ever have another child if they learn nothing else they will learn subtraction before they learn negative numbers!

 

We never spent more than 20 minutes a day on math and averaged 4 days a week. Except the two months I was sick and we did nothing...

 

In CSMP, which we are using now for dd, it offers the use of negative numbers as an alternative to the traditional subtraction algorithm (borrowing).

[Way2blessed]

 

 

Did you actually look at the names on the validation committee for yourself? Because I have the list in front of me right now, and, well, you're wrong.

 

Alfinio Flores—Hollowell Professor of Mathematics Education in the Department of Mathematical Sciences and

 

School of Education at the University of Delaware’s College of Education & Public Policy

 

Feng-Jui Hsieh—Associate Professor in the Mathematics Department at the National Taiwan Normal University

 

Jeremy Kilpatrick—Regents Professor of Mathematics Education at the University of Georgia

 

Two of them actually specialize in math education, which I figure makes them pretty darn qualified to judge the validity of a set of math standards. And Feng-Jui Hsieh is a straight-up math prof, which I'm fairly sure makes him a mathematician.

 

But hey, don't let those pesky facts get in your way.

 

 

Actually, you might be wrong. Flores and Kilpatrick are professors of mathematics education. That is not the same thing as being a mathematician. Ever heard of the NCTM (the National Council of the Teachers of Mathematics)? The NCTM has done more, perhaps, than any other organization to destroy mathematics education in the United States. Its membership is comprised of teachers of mathematics rather than mathematicians.

And all it says about Feng-Jui Hsieh is that he is an associate professor in the math department at a school in Taiwan. I've researched him on the Internet and found nothing, so it is hard to say what are his exact qualifications. James Milgram, in contrast, has a strong history with regards to math education as a mathematician in one of the most prestigious universities known for being a top math institution.

[Corraleno]

Actually, you might be wrong. Flores and Kilpatrick are professors of mathematics education. That is not the same thing as being a mathematician. Ever heard of the NCTM (the National Council of the Teachers of Mathematics)? The NCTM has done more, perhaps, than any other organization to destroy mathematics education in the United States. Its membership is comprised of teachers of mathematics rather than mathematicians.

And all it says about Feng-Jui Hsieh is that he is an associate professor in the math department at a school in Taiwan. I've researched him on the Internet and found nothing, so it is hard to say what are his exact qualifications. James Milgram, in contrast, has a strong history with regards to math education as a mathematician in one of the most prestigious universities known for being a top math institution.

 

So do you agree with Milgram that the core standards should include completion of Alg I, Geometry, and Alg II by the end of 9th grade, and that all students should take calculus before they graduate HS? Do you think that is a realistic goal for American students in the next couple of years as CC is phased in?

 

Jackie

[stripe]

Just out of curiosity, how come when conservative Christian types suggest a common core (such as E.D. Hirsch or Bill Bennett), it is a GREAT idea, but when implemented, it becomes a dangerous tool of socialism/liberalism/taking over parental authority?

[*Lulu*]

Just out of curiosity, how come when conservative Christian types suggest a common core (such as E.D. Hirsch or Bill Bennett), it is a GREAT idea, but when implemented, it becomes a dangerous tool of socialism/liberalism/taking over parental authority?

 

I suspect it has to do with human beings liking the idea of change more than the change itself.

[regentrude]

Actually, you might be wrong. Flores and Kilpatrick are professors of mathematics education. That is not the same thing as being a mathematician.

 

 

In fact, some of the biggest problems in math education stem from the fact that the people who develop curriculum are math educators and not people who have ever actually used math in their daily lives.

The ideas of math educators about how math "should" be taught often originate in ivory towers and have no relationship to the set of higher math skills that will be required for math heavy occupations.

 

(For example: educators who make a curriculum that considers long division a waste of class time have most likely never spent much time doing polynomial division. Educators who advocate calculator use in elementary school have no clue about the necessity of developing number sense.)

[ravinlunachick]

I actually have been impressed with how it has changed how math is taught. They are taught how to not only do the math but to be able to explain it. On every test, including the EOCs, they have written/essay questions detailing their understanding of their own problem solving. It was difficult for all the students at first but it has made a huge difference in how they think and do math. I'm glad they're doing it this way.

 

 

That has been required for SC students since the late 90s. A good portion of the state test required 3rd graders and up to not only complete multi-step problems, but to also write a sentence explaining their answer. I will never forget what one sweet little girl wrote on her test 13 years ago, during my first year as a teacher. Bless her heart, she tried so very hard in math, but struggled all year. The state testing was nerve-wracking for her.

 

On one question, which involved all 4 operations as well as extraneous information, she was asked to explain how she found her answer. She wrote, "I thoughted and I thoughted and POOF it come to me." :laugh: All these years later, and I still find myself hoping she got full credit for that explanation!

 

As it happens, though, having to score those sorts of questions took a long time, so that testing results were not back until September or October of the following school year. It was also costly to pay for the time involved in scoring, so as budgets were cut, so were the number of open-ended/essay questions outside of ELA.

[Tracy]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/03/04/principal-i-was-naive-about-common-core/

 

I thought this was an interesting article written by a former CC supporter.

[regentrude]

There is acutally a philosophy that says you can wait until 6th grade to teach any formal math, and the student will still be ready for Algebra by high school.

 

 

I believe it when I see it.

I know about the published experiments where the students supposedly caught up in a few weeks, but I have a hard time believing that the familiarity with numbers and the general number sense and routine can develop in such a short time that a student would have by spending several years doing math (without a calculator, of course)

 

Also, I find beginning algebra in high school too late. Only the US teach like this with algebra packaged into a nice little labeled one-year package. Elsewhere in the world, it is simply "math". In my home country, 6th graders study geometric proofs and 7th graders linear equations as part of the regular mandatory curriculum in ps - NOT in a gifted program or magnet school.

 

I see no benefit in doing no math until grade 6. My son was doing algebra then.

[Tracy]

I believe it when I see it.

I know about the published experiments where the students supposedly caught up in a few weeks, but I have a hard time believing that the familiarity with numbers and the general number sense and routine can develop in such a short time that a student would have by spending several years doing math (without a calculator, of course)

 

Also, I find beginning algebra in high school too late. Only the US teach like this with algebra packaged into a nice little labeled one-year package. Elsewhere in the world, it is simply "math". In my home country, 6th graders study geometric proofs and 7th graders linear equations as part of the regular mandatory curriculum in ps - NOT in a gifted program or magnet school.

 

I see no benefit in doing no math until grade 6. My son was doing algebra then.

 

 

I mostly agree with you. I don't think that I could wait that long. However, the philosophy is no math curricula, but not no math. The idea is that the teacher brings out the math in everything that they do, helping the kids to apply it to their lives. The idea has helped me to decide what to do with my 5yo. He is very good in math, and it is better for him to just play with the numbers right now rather than have him do a worksheet every day. But no, I couldn't wait until 6th grade.

[thebacabunch]

Whenever I get worried about my kids being "up to standard" or, let's face it, competetive with their ps counterparts I just think back to the days before my oldest was homeschooled. I would volunteer in her classroom and the kids in her classes were NO WHERE near the state standards. A few of the brightest who learned to read pre-k and who were afterschooled were "at standard". The range in k was from my dd who could read, write some short sentences, add and subtract when she started school to kids who had never held a pair of scissors and who could not color within the lines. The standards aren't being met, won't be met, and the real comparisons will be scores based on a curve like they are now. Test results are "compared to other ___ graders in the state".

 

I too am following the WTM trajectory for writing and I am happy with it. I will take 1 correctly written and punctuated sentence from my second grader over a couple of sounded out, poorly written paragraphs about "what pizza toppings I like best". My second grader is copying her own narrations of high quality literature or copywork about Joan of Arc. My oldest dd wrote paragraphs about nonsense in second grade ps and it took me 3 years and good curriculum to get her to write concise essays that stayed on topic and were cohesive.

 

I do see the problems that could arise for homeschoolers. I do see a problem with a nationalized spine. I can also see some benefit. It really has little to do with me. My kids will continue to have years with standards testing that they blow everyone out of the water and years where they are behind. Meh, my goal is to help them get to college and do well there.

[Guest Shannonleewilson]

Interesting! Thanks for posting

[Corraleno]

http://www.washingto...ut-common-core/

 

I thought this was an interesting article written by a former CC supporter.

 

She's not really arguing against the CC standards, though, she's arguing against the fact that certain idiots in a local school have ignored the ideas & intentions of the standards, and focused solely on test scores. But that already exists w/NCLB. Kids in my state are already tested 3x/yr, and they stopped learning content, in favor of test prep, a long time ago.

 

The new standardized tests for CC are (allegedly) supposed to be more focused on critical thinking and less on rote memorization and multiple choice. I hope that's the case, but I'm not holding my breath — and anyway, knowing the way schools work, that may just lead to "critical thinking" workbooks instead of, you know, actual critical thinking.

 

But what the standards are, and how they are assessed, are two different issues, IMHO. I think CC standards are a good idea, and in most areas I think they're a big improvement. But I also think there needs to be a MAJOR overhaul of the assessment process. As long as teacher's jobs & salaries are dependent on test scores, teachers will do whatever they can to maximize those scores. I've always thought it was incredibly stupid and short-sighted to link those two things that way.

 

Jackie

[dereksurfs]

Maria Miller of Math Mammoth weighs in on the CC and why she is adopting it. I found this interesting:

 

When I first looked at the Common Core Standards for math in December 2011, I thought they didn't look that bad. Now that I've studied them in detail, I have found a few that are "out of place", but for the most part, I feel they are a VAST improvement over what the US has had thus far: 50 different sets of standards, many of which are really long "laundry lists" that have caused the typical math curricula to be "inch deep and mile long".

 

I have always felt the long lists of standards was the wrong way to go, as it causes teachers and curricula to teach many, many multitudes of topics with shallowness. CCS is bringing some saneness to this situation. There are now fewer standards per grade, allowing more focus on certain topics and themes, thus hopefully allowing for true mastery, instead of teachers hurrying through the topics and passing kids to the next grade without them mastering the math.

 

Another thing I noticed back then was that Math Mammoth (Light Blue Series) actually was "aligned" in many aspects already, especially in grades 1-5. So, for me, the decision to align MM to CCS wasn't difficult, but rather quite a natural step. I cannot feel it has made Math Mammoth any worse, because the common core standards for math are quite similar to how I think math should be taught: they emphasize conceptual development a lot.

 

The alignment is helpful to those homeschooling parents who are planning to put their child back to public school in a certain grade. They can be assured that their child will learn the same things as the child's peers in public school, and have an easy transition back to school.

 

Then, a large portion (though not the majority) of my customers are teachers: math teachers, elementary school teachers, special education teachers, and so on. They appreciate being able to purchase materials that are aligned to the CCS, since that is what they have to teach.

 

Some homeschoolers may need to take yearly tests that will eventually be based on the CCS, and will thus need a program that is aligned.

The rest of the homeschoolers, who do not have to worry about CCS as such, can enjoy the fact the curriculum has also been improved and revised in other aspects." -- Maria Miller

[MBM]

LOL. Having actually attended public school in a socialist system, I received an education that was far superior to what goes on in the majority of US public schools. So did students in other socialist countries (as some board members will attest to). Public schools as good as in the former Soviet Union or East Germany - oh man, WHAT an improvement that would be!

 

(To clarify: I have a LOT of things to criticize about socialism. But the educational system is most definitely not one of them.)

 

 

Regentrude, I'm curious if you think the educational system was good for the majority of students in East Germany? From my understanding, West Germany allowed a little room for differentiation whereas East Germany did not. I read this in a book called Top Dog: The Science of Winning and Losing by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman, and I'm wondering if the authors' description of East German schools is accurate.

 

From the book:

 

 

East German schools had been very rigorous but had provided little outlet for individualism. All the children had the same exact books and assignments. Children were on the same schedule, no matter what. Those who did well in their education were not rewarded or accelerated. Children who struggled were not accommodated. They were just told to stand in front of the class and apologize to their classmates, since their poor performance had let the rest of the students down. They'd been taught to wait for someone else to tell them what to do, when, and how much effort to put in it.

 

In former East Germany, the only kids who had agency [the capacity to act independently, to make one's own free choices, and to make decisions quickly] were the ones who got great grades. They were the only ones who felt somewhat in control of their lives. In West Germany, agency was not strictly associated with, or ruled by, school grades. In the Western schools, children could play to their strengths and pursue their own interests, and their education was somewhat customized according to their abilities. Kids had all sorts of ways to develop agency, not just through academic performance.

 

 

Essentially, what the authors are trying to point out is that the lack of agency in individuals from East Germany had an adverse impact on the new, unified Germany. I was just curious what an East German's perspective might be of the school system at that time.

[stripe]

I mostly agree with you. I don't think that I could wait that long. However, the philosophy is no math curricula, but not no math. The idea is that the teacher brings out the math in everything that they do, helping the kids to apply it to their lives. The idea has helped me to decide what to do with my 5yo. He is very good in math, and it is better for him to just play with the numbers right now rather than have him do a worksheet every day. But no, I couldn't wait until 6th grade.

As I recall in previous discussions on this forum, there are very few groups that actually advise no math /no structured math until 6th grade. I distinctly remember being corrected when I suggested this was the Waldorf approach; I was informed it was not. The only Waldorf people my mother and I know, however, did no math or very limited math until middle school, and all had an enormous amount of trouble with it. However, I have been informed on this forum that this is not proper Waldorf.

 

Anyway, I have a hard time agreeing that math curricula means filling out a worksheet. There are lots of other styles of math that are devoid of worksheets. I daresay for most of human history, worksheets have been absent, yet there was still a curriculum (i.e., plan) underpinning the arrangement. Being without a curriculum to me, although not to everyone, means having no particular plan, agenda, or direction. However, I know some people mean not using a program or boxed product.

 

That being said, I suggest anyone interested in Eastern European math take a gander at this Hungarian math video. This is what MEP is based on.

https://www.teachingchannel.org/videos/teaching-elementary-math-hungary

(Just close the pop up, you don't have to log on to view)

 

There's a link at the bottom to one on math in Morocco....may need to check that out too.

[regentrude]

Regentrude, I'm curious if you think the educational system was good for the majority of students in East Germany?

 

Yes. At least compared to what I see here in the US. The average student most received a more rigorous and well rounded education.

Students who were not intending to go to a four year university finished school after 10th grade with a recognized diploma and went on to vocational training, subject specific colleges, apprenticeship.

 

From my understanding, West Germany allowed a little room for differentiation whereas East Germany did not.

 

From the book:

East German schools had been very rigorous but had provided little outlet for individualism. All the children had the same exact books and assignments. Children were on the same schedule, no matter what. Those who did well in their education were not rewarded or accelerated. Children who struggled were not accommodated

 

Same books and assignments, yes - up to 10th grade. Only students bound for a four year university attended 11th and 12th grade - that was a reward for doing well, as this was very selective.

Children with learning disabilities, however, attended special schools.

Gifted students had the opportunity to attend magnet high school starting in 9th grade with focus on STEM, modern languages, classical languages. Students gifted in music or athletics could attend specialized schools beginning in 6th grade.

ETA: There was one more specialized school for gifted students who were identified at the end of 2nd grade - basically one top student per class/school. They were collected and educated together starting in 3rd grade in a school with extended Russian instruction. I was fortunate to attend such a school.

 

. They were just told to stand in front of the class and apologize to their classmates, since their poor performance had let the rest of the students down. They'd been taught to wait for someone else to tell them what to do, when, and how much effort to put in it.

 

Nonsense. Nobody ever had to stand in front of the class and apologize. Not in my school.

 

In former East Germany, the only kids who had agency [the capacity to act independently, to make one's own free choices, and to make decisions quickly] were the ones who got great grades. They were the only ones who felt somewhat in control of their lives.

 

Huh? I am not even sure what the author is trying to say here.

It was normal school. If you paid attention and did the assignments, you got good grades. If you goofed off, did not pay attention, did not study, you got poor grades. No different than school anywhere else in the world.

Free choices and free will were not something you had at all in a communist system. Whether you had good grades or not. If you did not want to go into a highly sought after major, good grades gave you some wiggle room. If you wanted a very selective major, good grades did not help if your parents were not members of the party.

But this had nothing to do with the school system.

 

 

ETA: In fact, the people who had the MOST free choices and independence were the ones with the poor grades: if you have good grades and go to university and have a qualified job, these are all levers the regime could use against you. Refuse to do xyz (spy on your neighbor, sign a contract with the internal security service, denounce a friend)? Lose your place at uni, lose your job, lose your child's high school spot. OTOH, if you were a low worker in a factory, they had no leverage- what could they threaten to take away from you? Nothing. If you had no privileges (like education, or your child's educational opportunity), there was nothing they could take away.

 

In West Germany, agency was not strictly associated with, or ruled by, school grades. In the Western schools, children could play to their strengths and pursue their own interests, and their education was somewhat customized according to their abilities. Kids had all sorts of ways to develop agency, not just through academic performance.

 

Again, no idea what they are trying to say. The most criticized thing about the West German school system would be the early selection and tracking (which I personally consider a strength, and which is now a feature in the common German school system.)

 

Essentially, what the authors are trying to point out is that the lack of agency in individuals from East Germany had an adverse impact on the new, unified Germany. I was just curious what an East German's perspective might be of the school system at that time.

 

I do not understand their definition of agency.

In any society, high performing students have more choices. If anything, that factor was mitigated in East Germany.

 

What is certainly true is that the communist system did not encourage independence and allow for free choices; this mentality certainly hampered many east Germans after the reunification. But again, this is not something that had to do with the school system, but rather with society as a whole, where people did not have many choices and did not have to make decisions, because things were decided for them.

[JennyCook]

Did anyone see Glenn Beck on the blaze today? He discussed common core with some ex teachers, a political consultant, and a few others (I don't member their credentials).

 

For the record, yes...most states have adopted CC already, but many are now trying to get out. There are grassroots movements all over the nation making a big difference.

 

I really don't like the differences I've seen since CC was adopted as far as the standards go. Fuzzy math is now being taught at our PS. But putting the standards aside, I really do have a bigger problem with nationalizing education. Some don't see that as a problem. I just don't believe that this nation was meant to be run that way. What would our founding fathers think? I Admit, I'm very against the "big bad government" taking over. :).

 

Mandatory preschool was mentioned earlier. Our legislature just tried to pass a bill about mandatory preschool as well. Seriously!?!?! That bugs me SOOO bad! The government can NOT do a better job with my kids than I can. I see it as (another) attack on the family. We should be trying to pull families together, not tear them apart. I'm not saying that schools are bad. They are neccesary. I realize that everyone can't homeschool. But when the government gets involved in things like this, it really does effect the amount of local control we have.

 

If I were a PS teacher, I would be irritated by the amount of data collecting that needs to be done. SOOO much time is spent doing this. I'd feel like a "data drone." Can't we just let the teachers teach? Lets hire good principals and local leaders and let them hire and fire teachers based on if they are good teachers or not. (Yes, I know this brings new problems)

 

Honestly there are so many things about PS that are frustrating, and many of them I can't devise a solution for. They do the best they can sometimes and really do want to give kids a good education. I'm just grateful I get to homeschool my kiddos. :)

 

 

[JennyCook]

Here's a link to a few clips from the Glenn Beck show. If you want to watch the whole thing you have to have blaze or sign up for the free two week trial.

 

http://www.utahnsagainstcommoncore.com/glenn-beck-slams-common-core/

 

 

[dereksurfs]

Here's a link to a few clips from the Glenn Beck show. If you want to watch the whole thing you have to have blaze or sign up for the free two week trial.

 

http://www.utahnsaga...ms-common-core/

 

 

Well, I listened to part and it was pretty much what I expected to hear - a big dose of sensationalism, fear mongering and demonizing of all parties involved. That's how shows like this appeal to people similar to the evening news, Rush Limbaugh, Howard Stern, etc... The more drama the better. Here's a line which pretty much sums up the show's opinions:

 

"Your child will have absolutely no hope of being able to think after this curriculum." -- Glenn Beck :lol:

 

This really makes me wonder how many of the folks who get all worked up into a frenzy like this have even read the common core. Guess what, Glenn? The CC is not even a curriculum. I'm pretty sure any child who continues to study math curricula aligned with CC such as SM and MM will be able to think much clearer than Glenn is here. This conspiracy theory reminds me of similar ones such as all the hysteria during the 'birther movement.' Oh well, there will always be resistance to change of any kind, especially when Big, Bad Gov't is involved. :eek:

[dmmm]

..While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, using Glenn Beck's to try to establish fact....no I will refrain.

 

FYI Jenny, if isn't Mandatory Pre-school. It is Universal Pre-school. I am sure that Glenn Beck would like his listeners to think that Obama wants to control the minds of every 3 year old in the universe, but what it really means is that all children will have access to pre-school. You will not be forced to send your kids, your kids will not be taken away if they do not attend. You will still be able to homeschool your toddler. But I am sure as you know, pre-school cost money for the parent. This is to make education more accessible to those family's that are unable to pay for it.

 

Once Glenn Beck is used as a source for fact, my tin foil hat gets a second layer. :hat:

 

You actually have to pay to listen to him now? And people do? :crying:

[boscopup]

For the record, yes...most states have adopted CC already, but many are now trying to get out. There are grassroots movements all over the nation making a big difference.

 

My state is trying to get out, but after looking at it myself, I think that's a bad idea in my state's case. It would cost them a LOT of money to come up with new standards (which they would be required to do for THIS year, and it usually takes them 3 years to come up with one - too late!).

 

I really don't like the differences I've seen since CC was adopted as far as the standards go. Fuzzy math is now being taught at our PS.

 

CCS does not dictate whether a school should use fuzzy math or not. CCS may even make the fuzzy math turn out better... The standard algorithm is part of CCS. It must be taught now. The problem with fuzzy math was that standard algorithms weren't being taught.

 

I mentioned in another CCS thread what I heard on the radio (conservative radio, at that! :D) one day recently... A local school had an amazing leap in math ability in one 6th grade class. Of 120 students, at the beginning of the year, 52 were below grade level in math. After ONE semester using common core standards, they now have only 10 below grade level in math. That's a huge change! The teachers felt like they had more freedom to be creative in their classrooms.

 

Mandatory preschool was mentioned earlier. Our legislature just tried to pass a bill about mandatory preschool as well. Seriously!?!?! That bugs me SOOO bad!

 

CCS does not require preschool, so that would be an issue with your state, not with CCS. States have the right to mandate preschool or not. I'm not seeing big government in there with this one. Your state is the one trying to pass the bill, not the federal government.

 

I don't see anything about preschool on the CCS website. They state that CCS is for K-12.

 

Have you read the CCS?

 

If I were a PS teacher, I would be irritated by the amount of data collecting that needs to be done. SOOO much time is spent doing this. I'd feel like a "data drone." Can't we just let the teachers teach?

 

I'm not sure anything has changed with the data collecting? Obviously, it hasn't hampered the math teachers of the 6th grade class mentioned above. I would think NCLB would be more data collecting than CCS...

[Corraleno]

"Your child will have absolutely no hope of being able to think after this curriculum." -- Glenn Beck :lol:

 

Hey, that hasn't held Glenn back! ;)

 

I think the main reason that he, and others of his ilk, oppose CC is because there's such a focus on logic and critical thinking. CC expects students, beginning in 1st grade, to be able to distinguish between opinion and fact, and actually support their opinions with facts. If that happens, poor Glenn will be out of a job!

 

This really makes me wonder how many of the folks who get all worked up into a frenzy like this have even read the common core.

 

 

Yeah, that's the funny part. One of the motivations behind CC was the fact that students cannot read and critically analyze information, and yet almost all of the objections to CC that I've read are along the lines of: "my neighbor says..." or "I saw this on FB..." or "I heard this on talk radio." Kind of proves the point, doesn't it?

 

Jackie

[Way2blessed]

 

 

So do you agree with Milgram that the core standards should include completion of Alg I, Geometry, and Alg II by the end of 9th grade, and that all students should take calculus before they graduate HS? Do you think that is a realistic goal for American students in the next couple of years as CC is phased in?

 

Jackie

 

 

I don't think Milgram is saying that those things mentioned must be included in Core Standards. I think he is pointing out that they are part of the standards in high achieving countries. Common core purports itself as being based on high standards, when in math it is not. I certainly think that American children are capable of attaining high standards if we make that the goal and work toward it. But I also realize that there are parts of our country that are behind in education already and would not be able to make such a leap at the same rate as areas already advanced academically, which is one of the many reasons I don't support a nationalized curriculum ;)

[Tracy]

Math education in this country has been so poor for so long, that not even the elementary teachers understand it well enough to teach to high standards. I am not sure how we can overcome that.

[kitten18]

Maria Miller of Math Mammoth weighs in on the CC and why she is adopting it. I found this interesting:

 

When I first looked at the Common Core Standards for math in December 2011, I thought they didn't look that bad. Now that I've studied them in detail, I have found a few that are "out of place", but for the most part, I feel they are a VAST improvement over what the US has had thus far: 50 different sets of standards, many of which are really long "laundry lists" that have caused the typical math curricula to be "inch deep and mile long".

 

I have always felt the long lists of standards was the wrong way to go, as it causes teachers and curricula to teach many, many multitudes of topics with shallowness. CCS is bringing some saneness to this situation. There are now fewer standards per grade, allowing more focus on certain topics and themes, thus hopefully allowing for true mastery, instead of teachers hurrying through the topics and passing kids to the next grade without them mastering the math.

 

Another thing I noticed back then was that Math Mammoth (Light Blue Series) actually was "aligned" in many aspects already, especially in grades 1-5. So, for me, the decision to align MM to CCS wasn't difficult, but rather quite a natural step. I cannot feel it has made Math Mammoth any worse, because the common core standards for math are quite similar to how I think math should be taught: they emphasize conceptual development a lot.

 

The alignment is helpful to those homeschooling parents who are planning to put their child back to public school in a certain grade. They can be assured that their child will learn the same things as the child's peers in public school, and have an easy transition back to school.

 

Then, a large portion (though not the majority) of my customers are teachers: math teachers, elementary school teachers, special education teachers, and so on. They appreciate being able to purchase materials that are aligned to the CCS, since that is what they have to teach.

 

Some homeschoolers may need to take yearly tests that will eventually be based on the CCS, and will thus need a program that is aligned.

The rest of the homeschoolers, who do not have to worry about CCS as such, can enjoy the fact the curriculum has also been improved and revised in other aspects." -- Maria Miller

 

That was great. Thanks.