Talk to me about Logic of English (eta: and SWR)

[shinyhappypeople]

I am drawn to it but, at the same time, terrified to take the plunge. Is it really as good as it looks? ETA: Now I'm looking at Spell to Write and Read, so I'd appreciate comments on that program, too. Thanks :)

[dbmamaz]

i watched a bunch of their videos on youtube and really loved them. Day one we had tears . . . but thats just cuz this kid hates writing so much. He was crying at having to write three words that start with qu. sigh. I think this might be the one thing I force down his throat . . this kid is 9 and can not write at all. its time to do something about it! but day 1 (first part of first lesson) we havent even done the first spelling list!! We'll see. This kid just hates all curriculum, and we've managed to go freeform on almost everything, but some day he's got to learn to do things he doesnt want to do!!

[Hunter]

I downloaded it. I ended out switching back to Spalding WRTR 4th edition. If the author ever finishes the curriculum and publishes part 2, I might use it, but until that happens I'll stick with Spalding 4th.

[shinyhappypeople]

So, between posting the OP and re-visiting this thread I came across Spell to Write and Read. Can anyone compare them? They seem very similar. The idea that I can get everything I need for SWR for under $100 is appealing. Is the amount of writing similar (older DD hates to write)? Is it more/less flexible, or about the same?

[RootAnn]

LOE is more scripted than SWR. (SWR has a learning curve for the teacher that I think is taken away somewhat with LOE's script.) LOE is a "all in one" where she encorporates handwriting, spelling, phonics, and grammar. You can do that with SWR but it is isn't required and it isn't spelled out (as) clearly (esp. handwriting and grammar).

 

I use SWR, but it isn't for everyone. Your kid will have to write spelling words every day. You can tailor it so they are only writing 10 words per day and then ramp it up as you go. (My oldest was writing-phobic and it used to take us 30 minutes to get five words written back when she was six years old. (She was a Wiggly Willy & kept falling off her chair. She also complained she didn't like the sound the pencil made on the paper.)

[Delighted3]

I have used SWR, but I have only looked at LOE. SWR is definitely cheaper and it can be the only spelling program that you ever buy for all your kids

. There can be quite a bit of writing depending on what you require. There is writing phonograms, writing the spelling list from dictation, and quizzing words. Some of this can be done orally and you can also start slowly with doing a limited amount of words per day and work up to more. SWR has a lot more extensive word lists. The word lists in LOE are not nearly as comprehensive and you will have to use something else after LOE. I do like the grammar component in LOE, but it hasn't enticed me enough to switch. I think LOE probably has more hand holding using the method and planning the lessons, but SWR has tons of online support and is very easy to use once you get past the learning curve. SWR really worked for my kids.

Joy

[kirstenhill]

LOE is definitely great if you need something all planned out for you, and want "fun stuff" like games. I tried How to Teach Spelling before LOE and I just could not figure out how to make it work for us. My DD's spelling has improved tremendously (we're at lesson 23 of 40 right now). Next year we'll probably go thru it again with the advanced lists. It is definitely not the best "value" on the market in terms of rule and phonogram based programs, but if you need/want hand holding, it is so wonderful and user friendly. I don't mind at all having to use something else after she is done with the advanced lists - I'm hoping perhaps by that time (18 months or more from now) they may have the next level out or maybe by that point I won't need so much hand holding and I can use a simpler program. :-)

 

I also just started using the Foundations beta with my DSs who are almost 4 and almost 6. I started the older one in half way thru that program and the younger one at the beginning. Then next year The older one will do Essentials, I guess.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'm using LOE (spelling only) with the advanced spelling lists for spelling with dd10. I love it! We had tried traditional workbook-based spelling, and me giving her weekly lists based on words she misspelled, and while she did fine on the tests there was no retention/carrythrough into her writing. She would shove it into Short-term memory, regurgitate it for the test, then promptly forget it.

 

To me what makes the difference with LOE is the spelling dictation method - your student engages her brain to apply the spelling rules she is learning to figure out why words are spelled a particular way. It gives you a language and a vocabulary about spelling to apply to her own spelling while writing.

 

I just bought the pdf of the TM, and I got the pdf of the advanced spelling list from LOE. We work through the spelling lesson on the whiteboard, and she writes the spelling rules and the spelling lists in a notebook. With my little dd, I will go through the whole program, probably starting this summer.

 

Definitely watch the videos on the LOE website! Watch them all if you have time, but definitely watch the spelling dictation video, several times. The magic is in this method, where you are working together with the child so they actually learn how to spell, rather than just trying to memorize a list of words.

[Kalmia]

I have been using LOE with my youngest since September. I started with SWR and switched to How to Teach Spelling with my oldest (and continue to use HTTS with him). I like and will continue with LOE with my youngest until we advance past what they have published, then I will either switch to the lists in SWR or HTTS. Since LOE and SWR are both based on Orton-Gillingham methods (as is Spalding) the material they cover is the same, the methods differ slightly.

 

Here are some things I noticed:

 

1. LOE: Open-and-go with scripted teacher's manual and workbook. It is so incredibly easy to use. SWR major learning curve. Long teacher's manual with tiny type must be read and digested to implement the program effectively.

2. The reverse of the LOE Spelling rules flashcards have examples of words that use the rules. The reverse of the SWR spelling rules flashcards have pictograms invented by the author to help you remember the rule.

3. LOE Essentials: Begins the study of the 1000 most common words. There will be a book before LOE Essentials (LOE Fundamentals) and I assume more advanced books after it eventually. SWR: Has lists for all the most common words and can be used from K-12

4. LOE much much more expensive than SWR.

5. LOE phonogram flash cards include more modern sounds such as long e for words that end in y. SWR holds true to the older pronunciation of this y as a short i. (So honey would not be hon-ee but hon-i). I wrote in the modern pronunciations on my SWR cards.

6. LOE phonogram cards split some of the phonogram sounds between the basic and advanced flash cards. So basic card has x saying /ks/ advanced card introduces x as /z/. I think both sounds are on the same card in SWR. I just wrote the /z/ in on my basic card.

7. LOE has all its teacher training videos free on YouTube. Extra training videos are available on their website for free (like Crazy Words). I don't know if there are any training videos for SWR.

8. LOE eventually includes root word study and talks a lot about the origin of words. I don't know if SWR does this or not.

9. The markings used in LOE are similar but not exactly the same.

10.There is an emphasis on syllabification in LOE. I don't know if this is true of SWR.

[RootAnn]

6. LOE phonogram cards split some of the phonogram sounds between the basic and advanced flash cards. So basic card has x saying /ks/ advanced card introduces x as /z/. I think both sounds are on the same card in SWR. I just wrote the /z/ in on my basic card.

 

 

I think x just has /ks/ on the basic card in SWR.

 

8. LOE eventually includes root word study and talks a lot about the origin of words. I don't know if SWR does this or not.

 

 

This info is in the WISE guide(which is the list of words & activities to go with them) for many of the words, but it is your choice if you include it because SWR isn't scripted like LOE is.

 

10.There is an emphasis on syllabification in LOE. I don't know if this is true of SWR.

 

 

While SWR breaks the words into syllables, there isn't any explicit teaching of syllabification. I've missed this & have tried to add it on my own this year. (AAS has this as well. I wish SWR would add it.)

[dbmamaz]

second part of the first lesson today, the actual spelling list. obviously the words were very easy for him, but there was no tears and no complaining and i think the sounding out was something that kinda made sense to him. I love the scripted part . .. my other kids did reading and spelling at school and i was a terrible speller, so i'm loving this. its helping me, too

[Chrysalis Academy]

second part of the first lesson today, the actual spelling list. obviously the words were very easy for him, but there was no tears and no complaining and i think the sounding out was something that kinda made sense to him. I love the scripted part . .. my other kids did reading and spelling at school and i was a terrible speller, so i'm loving this. its helping me, too

 

 

 

I'm feeling like a broken recond here . . . but the spelling dictation method is such a huge deal! To me it is really the heart of why this program works so well. I'm learning a lot from going through it, too!

[Tracy]

This is a good list. We use SWR, so I thought I would add to it (my comments in red).

 

Here are some things I noticed:

 

1. LOE: Open-and-go with scripted teacher's manual and workbook. It is so incredibly easy to use. SWR major learning curve. Long teacher's manual with tiny type must be read and digested to implement the program effectively. Yes, there is a learning curve, but after that it is completely open-and-go. For me, the learning curve was about 2 months. The Yahoo Group is very helpful.

2. The reverse of the LOE Spelling rules flashcards have examples of words that use the rules. The reverse of the SWR spelling rules flashcards have pictograms invented by the author to help you remember the rule. They have recently changed this, removing the pictograms.

3. LOE Essentials: Begins the study of the 1000 most common words. There will be a book before LOE Essentials (LOE Fundamentals) and I assume more advanced books after it eventually. SWR: Has lists for all the most common words and can be used from K-12 The SWR lists include 2000 words.

4. LOE much much more expensive than SWR.

5. LOE phonogram flash cards include more modern sounds such as long e for words that end in y. SWR holds true to the older pronunciation of this y as a short i. (So honey would not be hon-ee but hon-i). I wrote in the modern pronunciations on my SWR cards.

6. LOE phonogram cards split some of the phonogram sounds between the basic and advanced flash cards. So basic card has x saying /ks/ advanced card introduces x as /z/. I think both sounds are on the same card in SWR. I just wrote the /z/ in on my basic card.

7. LOE has all its teacher training videos free on YouTube. Extra training videos are available on their website for free (like Crazy Words). I don't know if there are any training videos for SWR. There are some great free videos on YouTube. In fact the Yahoo Group recently started keeping a list in their Files section. They do sell additional videos and offer training courses. I have never used either, as the manual and Yahoo Group have been enough for me.

8. LOE eventually includes root word study and talks a lot about the origin of words. I don't know if SWR does this or not. SWR does do this. There are references to root words throughout the spelling lists, and in the new log book, it includes three reference pages for Greek and Latin root word study.

9. The markings used in LOE are similar but not exactly the same.

10.There is an emphasis on syllabification in LOE. I don't know if this is true of SWR. Syllabification is taught in SWR and used with every word in the spelling lists. I am not sure how the emphasis compares to LOE.

 

 

You don't say what age children you are using it for. Since the LOE program is not yet complete, you are limited to using it for the middle elementary grades. I understand it can be adapted for younger children, but I am not sure how easy that would be to do if you are new to the program.

[Kalmia]

Tracy,

 

My kids are 7 and 13. I began SWR with my son in 3rd grade and switched to How to Teach Spelling by 4th or 5th, but continued to use the phonogram and rule cards from SWR for reinforcement. I started my daughter with How to Teach Spelling in K, but was not happy with it for a beginning learner. When I saw LOE for beginning 2nd with her, I knew it would be a good fit for the way she learns (loves workbooks).

 

An additional difference: LOE is secular and the SWR version I have is Christian. I heard there was one version made for the school market that was secular, but could not find it when I was buying.

 

Spalding, LOE and SWR are all excellent programs. You can't go wrong with any of them.

 

Oh, and I think LOE Fundamentals is closing in on publication. They sent out the "rough draft" of their cover on FB today.

[besroma]

LOE is definitely great if you need something all planned out for you, and want "fun stuff" like games. I tried How to Teach Spelling before LOE and I just could not figure out how to make it work for us. My DD's spelling has improved tremendously (we're at lesson 23 of 40 right now). Next year we'll probably go thru it again with the advanced lists. It is definitely not the best "value" on the market in terms of rule and phonogram based programs, but if you need/want hand holding, it is so wonderful and user friendly. I don't mind at all having to use something else after she is done with the advanced lists - I'm hoping perhaps by that time (18 months or more from now) they may have the next level out or maybe by that point I won't need so much hand holding and I can use a simpler program. :-)

 

I also just started using the Foundations beta with my DSs who are almost 4 and almost 6. I started the older one in half way thru that program and the younger one at the beginning. Then next year The older one will do Essentials, I guess.

 

What do you think of Foundations so far?

[kirstenhill]

 

 

What do you think of Foundations so far?

 

The beginning lessons fit my almost 4 year old to a T. He's super curious about words and writing. I can keep it fun and so far do most of a lesson in 10-15 minutes. We're at lesson 10.

 

For my Kindergartener, it isn't as much of a perfect fit but it's a better fit than what I was doing before. I started teaching him to read about a year ago with Phonics Pathways. We stopped using that early last fall, and I started using Essentials (slowly) with him and then just practicing reading. He can read Cat in the Hat or Frog and Toad with a bit of help. I had a hard time finding the right pacing for him with LOE Essentials though - he definitely wasn't ready for the workbook, but just doing some spelling dictation and a game or two here and there wasn't making the phonograms or rules "stick". We made it thru about lesson 8.

 

So, I decided to try him out in Foundations, starting with about lesson 47. Some of the reading is still pretty easy for him, but it is the perfect difficulty of spelling and phonogram practice in manageable chunks of 5 words per lesson. The lessons seem longer at this point of the program. Since he still wants to practice reading, I am having him read to me for ten minutes from books we pick together (longer if he chooses) and work on Foundations for 15 minutes. We can't get thru a whole lesson in that time frame, especially since almost every lesson at this stage suggests a game (and I don't have the time or energy for a game every day!). But even with not doing the program with him exactly "as written", I still think it is working better than what I was doing before.

[A home for their hearts]

 

Oh, and I think LOE Fundamentals is closing in on publication. They sent out the "rough draft" of their cover on FB today.

 

Foundations is the name of the kindergarten/1st grade curriculum they are getting ready to release.

[Soror]

We are using Foundations right now. The lessons ramped up pretty quickly imo and include a lot. I like it but do feel it is a bit much sometimes, especially the writing portion. It would not have worked for ds in K but 1st would have been ok I think with modifications.

[A home for their hearts]

We are using Foundations right now. The lessons ramped up pretty quickly imo and include a lot. I like it but do feel it is a bit much sometimes, especially the writing portion. It would not have worked for ds in K but 1st would have been ok I think with modifications.

 

 

We are using Foundations as well. If the writing is too much I would suggest using letter tiles. White boards are great as well.

[Soror]

I let dd write in print for some of it. It is too much for her learning cursive. She is a perfectionist and is doing well with it but is not ready to write that much, I thought there was too fast of a leap w/ the cursive from letters to lots of words and not enough practice on the joining together. For my son he would be freaking at the writing period as he's always been behind in that regard.

[violamama]

We use SWR and I love it. If you had asked me what I thought about it 6 months ago, I would have said it was hard to use. I had gone to a training class, too.

 

The thing that changed it for me was watching a tutor I hired come teach once a week for about 6 weeks. Watching her put the program into action with such patience and have fun with it reassured me that I was doing it "right".

 

For me, I think most of my issues were related to being a rookie and not really SWR's fault, if YKWIM. I'm glad we're doing it now because I like the long-term trajectory of it, that it is complete and is now routine for us.

 

We just did our first diagnostic test and after about a year of it (in which we started with a lot of alphabet recognition games) he came in around grade level 2.3, not including at least 3 words he missed because he was tired/distracted. So it seems to be going well.

[Mom2pandc]

I used LOE at an accelerated 1 lesson every 1-2 days with my 9 y/o and at a slower pace for my 6 y/o. It has worked great for us. I modified it for the 9 year old by removing parts of the dictation and only occasionally doing composition together. We cut out much of tr phonogram review as well once he had them memorized and just focused on the new phonograms, spelling rules, and grammar. Now that he's finished all 40 lessons, I'm using the advanced spelling lists that are online for his weekly spelling list (they didn't have these the first time he went through).

For my 1st grader we do 1 lesson a week. I like that its all in one place. Reading, spelling, grammar, dictation, etc. her success and improvement in reading is all I need to be sold on this program and method. Well worth the $ I spent. It's very easy to modify this for your child's individual needs in my opinion and this is our first year homeschooling.

[mary.margaret]

I'm really enjoying this thread as I've spent several weeks now comparing SWR and LoE!

 

Could someone who uses LoE Essentials help me understand how you are able to use advanced spelling lists with the Essentials program? One of the reasons I have been hesitating is that the purchase price would only get us through one year of material. Would you start at the beginning and teach the rules again, etc but use different words for examples? I know my boys will need more than one year of this excellent material, so I'd like to understand this going into it. Can new lists merge right into the Essentials teacher's guide?

 

And for those using the beta LoE Foundations program, what would you do to prepare a 5 year old (who is sounding out small words but has trouble with writing letters) while we're waiting for the Foundations program to come out?

 

Thank you,

Mary-Margaret

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'm not sure if our experience is relevant to your question - we use the advanced spelling lists, we just substitute them for the lists in the book. I'm using LOE for spelling remediation with a 10 yo, and while she needed the spelling rules from the beginning, I knew she would be insulted by the "easy" words in the book. The advanced spelling list makes it perfect for her.

 

With my younger dd I will use it as written, and then perhaps go through again, just reviewing the spelling rules, with the advanced list. That would be one year of the full program, then a second year of spelling once a week.

[kirstenhill]

I'm really enjoying this thread as I've spent several weeks now comparing SWR and LoE!

 

Could someone who uses LoE Essentials help me understand how you are able to use advanced spelling lists with the Essentials program? One of the reasons I have been hesitating is that the purchase price would only get us through one year of material. Would you start at the beginning and teach the rules again, etc but use different words for examples? I know my boys will need more than one year of this excellent material, so I'd like to understand this going into it. Can new lists merge right into the Essentials teacher's guide?

 

And for those using the beta LoE Foundations program, what would you do to prepare a 5 year old (who is sounding out small words but has trouble with writing letters) while we're waiting for the Foundations program to come out?

 

Thank you,

Mary-Margaret

 

 

I haven't done the advanced lists yet, but I plan to do it next year as our second year through the program. I'm guessing we'll review the phonograms and rules as necessary as we go. There are so many phonograms to remember that at this point my DD is not 100% solid on all the sounds of all the less-used phonograms, so I think it will be good review. We also have not done all the grammar and composition, so we may do more of that the second time through.

 

As far as what to do with your five year old while you wait for Foundations to come out...you could just wait since Foundations does really start at the very beginning with the strokes that make up portions of each letter and with learning the phonogram sounds for the first time. But if you want to be working with your dd right now in a way that would "fit in" with what foundations teaches, you could look at the handwriting products in the Logic of English store: http://www.logicofen...ore/handwriting

 

You could buy a pdf of either the student handwriting book or the quick reference chart and start working on the basic strokes (it doesn't have to be on paper -- you could do it on a salt tray, on dry erase, in shaving cream, etc) or a few letters.

 

Or you could start working on making sure your five year old knows all the sounds of the first 25 single letter phonograms if she doesn't know them already. You mentioned that she can sound out small words, so I am assuming she does know at least some of the sounds. But since LOE teaches all the sounds at once, you could work on the additional sounds of some of those letters with fun games. Since you'll need the phonogram cards later anyway you could order a set now, or if you are not wanting to order anything yet, you can see a list of the phonograms laid out the way LOE does it on their website, and you could make your own flash cards or game cards.

 

Any work you do right now with her right now will just be either stuff she will review in Foundations, or you may be able to start her part way through the program by the time you have it in your hands. I was able to start my Kindergartener in at about lesson 46, but I started my almost-4-yr-old right at the beginning.