amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I know we're going through testing, and i know I'll have to get this under control, but what are your opinions? Pretend it's out of his control and give me some insight. Ds wanted to go out and play but his boots are wet. He said he was going to go throw them in the dryer. Dd asked if he could throw hers in as well. He immediately gets mad and yells. "Great! Now i have to get your stupid boots. Why can't you get your own stupid boots?! No. I'm not doing it." Dd and i ignored his rant. He walked over to the boots, picked up all 4 and put them in the dryer. Why does he have to have his tantrums? He usually does whatever he just screamed he was not going to do. It just takes so much more effort and energy to have that pre-task tantrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Not sure but I know several adults like this. Just like to state the unfairness in their view I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialClassical Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well, simply put I would say he might have diminished impulse control. We have experienced the situation you described since our daughter was small. We required her to obey and disciplined her for her outbursts. Then we found out she had FASD and began to understand her better. People say with consistent dicipline the child will learn self control, but with a kid who has organic neuro issues, that control is much harder to exercise. (She is our fourth, so i can see the difference.) How that plays out is that if someone asked you or me to do something we didn't want to do, we would grouch about it in our head, but some children don't have the ability to keep it inside. I think it is a positive that he does the task. That shows he knows the right thing to do is help someone else. Hopefully someone can help you figure out the impulse control issue. The way I try to have compassion for her is by thinking about how I feel when hormones or situations are pushing me to the edge and then realize that she felt like that the majority of the time before we found meds that helped her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Joyofsix- the thought of him growing up like this is what really scares me! Jvander- i know for sure he's not dealing with any degree of FAS, so that's good! But hes got neuro problems. Yes, he has very poor impulse control. I really hope we can pinpoint which problem is causing the bulk of his behaviors. Between treating the underlying issues, therapies, and I'm sure meds at some point, maybe we'll get somewhere. I still want to try an intense ABA program with him. But I'm not changing anything just yet. We have to survive a few more months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 No advice, but lots of hugs. Praying that the light at the end of the tunnel appears soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Personality? DD can be like this. She's a grouchy perfectionist. However, when someone is really in need (sick, hurting) she's the first to turn all motherly, and takes the most amazing care of that person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom31257 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Have you tried having him "redo" what he just did but in a nice way? It would be like retraining his brain on how he should have handled it. I personally don't think you should ignore bad, disrespectful behavior even if he can't help it. My nephew has severe developmental delays, severe epilepsy, ocd/autistic behaviors, etc. His parents nor our family ever allow him to act badly without at least requiring him to apologize and try to make it right. We are also quick to try and redirect him when we see it coming on as well. My sister and brother-in-law felt they should try to parent him as much as they could as they would have any other child. Would you allow your daughter to act that way without any discipline? I think it is okay to require him (even if he gets diagnosed with something) to do things he is asked with a good attitude. Hopefully you can at least get to the point that he can do what he's asked without voicing his negative opinions. I deal with that in my own ds. If he expresses his negative opinions, I'm making him restate it in a positive way. I think I know why people used to say, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 If innate personality, how can it be worked on? It's not a good quality, and I'm sure will hinder him in life. He sounds like the drunk, abusive neighbor. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 I dont like that he gets away with it, but it seems any attempts at retraining just escalates his behavior. When i have specifically worked on his language, his physical aggression increases. Going through this cycle is why his previous behavior therapist switched kids. She felt she could help dd cope much better than she was capable of helping ds change. New therapist basically blows it off as sibling rivalry, and blames homeschooling (since they're together so much. He refuses to accept me saying it was WORSE when they spent 7 hours away from each other in ps). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Some people's brains take every zigzag as a full frontal attack. They respond with attack mode. When it gets to the point of screwing up life/getting arrested, it is amazing what meds can do. My favorite was the lady who brought a letter asking her to not walk around the trailer park with a loaded rifle. She held it up and screamed at me: TELL THEM TO STOP THESE LETTERS. THIS STRESSES ME OUT. She was 80. After a spell of homelessness, she ended up on meds in a group home where I had the pleasure of seeing her smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 DS does this too. I agree with Jvander that impulse control plays into it. One thing I did want to note is that for DS, his meanness seems to directly correlate to his anxiety level. Up until 6 months ago, I never thought DS had an anxiety problem, because he always acts so self-assured and confident. But then I came to realize that underneath that self-assured exterior was a very anxious boy who expressed his anxiety through acting out, being mean, verbal and sometimes physical aggression, etc. It didn't look like "regular anxiety" - he never expresses worry or fear, unless I probe for that kind of information. So I started focusing on addressing the underlying anxiety whenever he acts out - instead of focusing on the way the anxiety is being expressed. So, if he talks back or is disrespectful, I'll try to figure out what's behind that and I might say "You seem upset. What's on your mind?" instead of immediately coming down on the inappropriate behavior. I still address the behavior issue, but now I'll often address it AFTER we've talked about what's really going on. I've found that he's much more receptive to redirection once his real concern has been addressed. This has really been helpful for us, but it's not a magic bullet. It takes time and consistency just like any other approach. And sometimes he truly is just "being mean", but more often than not, I find that there's an underlying concern that is driving the behavior. Hang in there. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thank you everyone! Heigh Ho- you're right. I completely missed the fact that he had a problem and figured out how to solve on his own. I cant imagine the process his brain went through to get there. It was more than the original post, because it didnt even register to me how much he processed. Dandelion- i have been thinking about anxiety lately. That and depression. Kalanamak- when this is all figured out, i hope he has a positive reaction to meds. I sure dont want him freaking out at 80! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 If innate personality, how can it be worked on? It's not a good quality, and I'm sure will hinder him in life. He sounds like the drunk, abusive neighbor. :( the brain is amazingly elastic. we can change a whole lot about who we are. and even more about how we express our feelings. we truly are not "trying to find ourselves", we are "creating ourselves". there is a great ted talk i watched yesterday about how two minutes of a strong body posture pose actually changed hormonal leves in people, making them less timid and more confident. think of it: two minutes, standing like wonderwoman, can change a life if it leads to a new job or a new relationship or or or. many things aren't that simple, but if instead of thinking "great, now i have to do something else" he was able to switch it to "i'm so glad she gave me a chance to do something helpful" the whole world would change for him. good luck! ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I understand it is easier to ignore it for fear of it escalating, but really that doesn't resolve the issue either. I'd be willing to let it escalate IF it eventually hits home that the behavior won't be tolerated. I would have calmly responded that he is not going out until he redoes that without the attitude. I sure wouldn't tell my other kids to rephrase to appease him. Your dd didn't say anything wrong or rude and I think it really sends the wrong message to her about accepting and tiptoeing around abusive behavior for the sake of making peace. I would have said, "Resay that without the hateful attitude or you can stay in. That was really a petty thing to explode over. Do you need to go to your room to cool down and try this again?" Some of it might be sibling stuff. So what? That still doesn't make it acceptable. I'd find a different therapist with some sense. One that ignores your issues or blames it on unrelated things they are biased against isn't going to be much help and might very well be undermining your efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 So what if it is personality? Smh At that point, you pull him aside and say, "Okay everyone has different temperaments. Some are quicker to anger than others. But that is not an excuse to go all raving nuts with everyone either. That makes you and everyone around unhappy and I really don't think that is what you want, yes? So if you feel yourself about to lose it, you really need to take a few minutes to calm down, take a breath, and respond rationally. Maybe you are justified to be ticked, maybe you aren't, but it doesn't excuse hateful behavior." We all have flaws we have to over compensate for in some manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 We don't always ignore just for ease, but sometimes it's amazing to watch how different his reaction is based on things that seem so simple. If dd does not respond to him, he's pretty quick to apologize. When i try to redirect or require him to apologize, he goes off the deep end (still only 60lbs, no real threat yet). Part of the reason dd has a therapist is for her to cope with ds. The therapist and i almost always talk to dd following an incident, and i stress to her the ds's behavior is ridiculous and she should not have to deal with it. The flip side is that dd is really good at triggering him. I cant count the times that dd has intentionally antagonized ds and was able to quietly get out of her responsibilities. I'm getting much better at catching this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom31257 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I just noticed that you are a single mom, and I hope it's okay to ask, but has he always been this way? Did you go through a divorce that has caused him to have a lot of inner anger? How much is his dad involved in his life? Obviously, don't answer if it's too much to ask. It seems to me that anger and meanness usually come from someone hurting in some way. Brain factors may contribute to the inability to control it, but some kind of hurt probably put it there to start with. Does that make sense? You say he went to public school before. Could things have happened there that have caused the behavior problems (abuse, bullies, etc.)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I will disagree. The big sis did one thing wrong -- she gave work to a much younger child. It should be the service giver's decision to volunteer to help another, not as a response to the recipient's demand for service. It's the adult's move to coach the volunteering in a positive manner and to teach the difference between service and servant. We will agree to disagree then. There is no servant or service in this house. It's all family helping family. She wasn't rude, he was more than capable of the task, and such are basic things that people living together do for each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 I left his father 2-3 months before he was born. His father saw him with near consistency until he was 18 months old. He'd also been in daycare or school from 8 months until about 6yr8mo. The other possible problem could be media. When he was younger, i figured out that horror movies quieted him (he was either silent or screaming bloody murder. A person gets desperate when the blood curdling screams take over the day!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 If he had the language to discuss possible hurt or anxiety, it would help a lot, but he really lacks expressive communication (note i said communication- he's obviously capable of screaming at dd and i, but he is not able to sit down and really talk). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 How about this one- we're watching a show on netflix. When the show ended, i jokingly prevented ds from going to the next episode because it goes automatically. He was laughing, jokingly struggling against me holding him, but when it was 2 seconds from switching, he started crying. He knows we were playing. It only takes 14 seconds to go to the next episode, and he has no patience to wait for it. Again, we were completely playing. He was laughing. Never got mad. Just started crying. A few seconds into the next episode and he's fine. He's fine now and cuddling. I'd be curious to see what would happen if i did it again, but I'm not going to. This almost makes me think anxiety, but over waiting 14 seconds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 He just problem solved and he's filled to the top. Adding on to his task list put him over, so he spilled. Mini-meltdown, better than holding it in and going into full blown meltdown. Try coaching your dd to say "hey, great idea, don't turn the dryer on, I will put my boots in with yours and then turn the dryer on." He then gets a positive response, instead of more work. What he has now is like you telling the neighbor that you're going to the grocery store, and the neighbor asking if you'll pick up the items on his list. Instead of "eggs" you get a big list that requires more than the quick in/out/express lane that you had envisioned. This is spot on, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 If he had the language to discuss possible hurt or anxiety, it would help a lot, but he really lacks expressive communication (note i said communication- he's obviously capable of screaming at dd and i, but he is not able to sit down and really talk). I think he communicated. Have you been around many 7 year old boys? I don't mean that snootily but they are generally not a crew that sits around and shares their feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I left his father 2-3 months before he was born. His father saw him with near consistency until he was 18 months old. He'd also been in daycare or school from 8 months until about 6yr8mo. The other possible problem could be media. When he was younger, i figured out that horror movies quieted him (he was either silent or screaming bloody murder. A person gets desperate when the blood curdling screams take over the day!). Sorry, I need to pick up my jaw from the floor. How does one even figure this out?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I think he communicated. Have you been around many 7 year old boys? I don't mean that snootily but they are generally not a crew that sits around and shares their feelings. LOL Yes. Pretty much. He doesn't sound like he has hard time communicating his feelings to me either. He just needs to be directed in how to do to it politely. *shrugs* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Kalanamak- when this is all figured out, i hope he has a positive reaction to meds. I sure dont want him freaking out at 80! In her case she'd done *okay* in life until she started losing her memory a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 I know little boys, or even boys in general may not let the emotions flow verbally. His expressive language tests very scattered from about 2yrs to 5yrs. Tests aside, his SLP puts him at a 3-4yrs range. His receptive testing tests out of range (meaning she didnt open the level above where he flew through) yet he seems to have poor processing. I have seen him with other boys, and he is not able to keep up conversation with boys older than 3. His two closest friends are a 3yo and a very disabled 8yo. He lasts maybe a few minutes when playing with other boys. He just doesn't have the language. :( I agree that he communicated his lack of desire to throw dd's boots in the dryer, and that he solved a problem on his own, I'm just wondering how i work on this. Redirecting, getting to him before a problem, and attempting to talk are all things I'm trying. Working with his overall impulse control is something I'll add. I have no idea how i figured out that terrible movies gave us a little peace. The process was probably the same as when people figure out that baby sleeps better in the swing, or sitting on a dryer stops the screams. I've since changed (big time) what he's allowed to watch. My favorite movie when i was little was beetlejuice. Watching it with adult eyes, i dont see how it was appropriate for me, but it happened. He did not babble as a baby. He screamed, or was momentarily quiet. He screamed in the car, screamed once he outgrew the swing, screamed in his stroller, inside, outside, his father's house, at home, in daycare.... I was desperate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I have a few kiddos with quirks that I simply cannot keep myself from trying to discipline. However, I have found that attempting to discipline behavior that results from mental illness or disability is pretty ineffective. Particularly if the discipline comes before the child is stabalized with treatment. That does not mean the child gets a free pass, but a simple action=consequences formula isn't always going to work when there is a cognitive disconnect. There were lots of things I thought I wouldn't tolerate or would never do when I had my first child. But sometimes we don't get the perfect little package. Sometimes we get a child who needs to be treated individually and in ways that other parents "would never." Medications may make a world of difference, but you'll have to make that decision on your own. It is a tough decision to make and you can expect to be roundly condemned for it- probably by the same parents who don't tolerate this or that. Having a SN child is a whole different universe. Continue to look for a good medical team, do your homework, rely on well rounded and informed advice and try avoid folks who tell you it's all your fault. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 OK, here's another guess, and it goes along with what others have said. He's concentrating really hard about going to play. He knows he has to get his boots and dry his boots and that is his focus. Then, your DD asks him to dry HER boots and it completely derails him b/c he is concentrating so hard on doing his own thing. So he says it out of frustration but is still able to get DDs boots and put them in the dryer. You could also ask the question why did he stop and get DDs boots? Why did he do the good thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 You could also ask the question why did he stop and get DDs boots? Why did he do the good thing? This is really what i wonder a lot with him. He's so verbally violent. Basically tells others where to shove it, but goes and does things for them. Seems like a "typical" abuse pattern of apologizing before hitting again. :( It makes me wonder which side of him will prevail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 This is really what i wonder a lot with him. He's so verbally violent. Basically tells others where to shove it, but goes and does things for them. Seems like a "typical" abuse pattern of apologizing before hitting again. :( It makes me wonder which side of him will prevail. Have you been abused by someone else? verbally or otherwise? He could be triggering something subconsciously in you. It might be something to think about. You don't have to answer me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 My neighbor is an abusive drunk. He constantly yells at his boys, wife, and occasionally my kids (i defend my kids). But when i hear ds yelling the way he does, i can "hear" my neighbor. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Your DS is a long way from an adult abusive drunk. Mostly because you are helping him. I hope you get some answers. (Hugs) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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