Waiting for Superman

[regentrude]

When my kid sister was in elementary school (mid-80s), they did not differentiate any assignments (even reading), but had the advanced students assist the slower ones during seatwork. (Which I think was actually brilliant.)

 

I do not find this brilliant at all. Occasionally, that may be a fun break in routine, but it effectively means that the advanced students do not get instruction. But they are entitled to an education as well - I don't send them to school to act as teacher's aides, but to be taught.

[Arcadia]

The problem with afterschooling here is that the for some parents, satisfying the bottom rungs of the Maslow's hierachy of needs is already draining. Here I don't know what provisions there are for children who are on free breakfast and lunch to have enough to eat during summer holidays. There are children staying in shelters/emergency housing going to school.

 

Cartoon Network needs cable TV subscription. PBS kids is free to air but not all homes get good reception.

 

The other choice is tutoring, which is what the stereotypical Asian parents do in this area. One finds a Saturday school for the third language, does music privately and hires a math tutor as well as uses the public library.

 

Chinese (as a race) has a strong cultural heritage dating back to the Imperial Exams of tutoring and afterschooling. Its probably politically incorrect but my kid's teacher do subconciously expect asian parents to afterschool. I do agree than asians tend to "dominate" the libraries here doing homework afterschool.

I entered kindergarten in the late 70s but went to a catholic (mission) school so there was more leeway in how we were taught. Most of my teachers are nuns.

[jenbrdsly]

What would you like the parents to be responsible for?

 

In my district, I am responsible for instilling behavior expectations, seeing that the child attends regularly, arranging for care when he's sick, and ensuring that homework and studying is done. I am responsible to see that he arrives ready to learn (fed, emotionally calm). I agree to all that.

 

 

 

This. (What you said.) That is what would help. When I taught at a "good school" in a "good neighborhood" this is what I got from parents. But when I was teaching in an impoverished neighborhood, I didn't get this type of parental support at least 95% of the time. The kids who were getting this type of support at home, did a lot better.

 

The frustrating thing was that I could tell that ALL of the parents really loved their kids. But some people knew to do these things, and some didn't.

[jenbrdsly]

 

PS: I have a friend who teaches PS 1st grade in SoCal and her stories about children of immigrant laborers who do not have any parental help (ability or time) to do even simple posters like favorite foods, favorite animal, culture of any country etc is heart breaking. Some of them send their kids to school because it has subsidized lunch and acts as a free child care center and she says a lot of the kids just disappear and move on every few months.

 

 

This is what happened to me when I taught in NoCal too. That's why I felt that the movie was a bit biased because it didn't into the effect poverty plays into student achievement.

[jenbrdsly]

It is ridiculous that well behaved students with educated parents have to afterschool in order to get the grade level learning objectives covered. In my time, the teachers taught effectively or the school board let them go. What's your take? What do you think the teacher should be responsible for?

 

 

Sorry! 3 posts in a row. The multi-quote on the new board is confusing.

 

I think that teachers should be responsible for bringing all of their students up at least one grade level every year, assuming that the students aren't coming and going all the time. Most of the standardized tests I've seen aren't measuring this. They are measuring whether or not the teacher brings the kid up to the current grade level. That makes things really hard if you have a third grader for example, who enters your class not knowing the ABCs. You might do a stellar job bringing that child up to the first or second grade reading level that year, but the kid would still fail the third grade test and the teacher would look incompetent.

 

 

This would of course, allow for more differentiated instruction, which in my view is essential.

[regentrude]

I think that teachers should be responsible for bringing all of their students up at least one grade level every year...

That makes things really hard if you have a third grader for example, who enters your class not knowing the ABCs. You might do a stellar job bringing that child up to the first or second grade reading level that year, but the kid would still fail the third grade test and the teacher would look incompetent.

 

Which just illustrates that grouping children by age is not very useful, and that grouping by ability would make things much easier for all concerned: teachers, and students, both low and high performing ones.

[Roadrunner]

That makes things really hard if you have a third grader for example, who enters your class not knowing the ABCs. You might do a stellar job bringing that child up to the first or second grade reading level that year, but the kid would still fail the third grade test and the teacher would look incompetent.

This would of course, allow for more differentiated instruction, which in my view is essential.

 

 

 

What happened to failing a grade? What is a child not knowing the ABCs doing in a third grade class to begin with?

If you are teaching first grade material to a third grader, shouldn't that kid still be in the first grade?

 

In my school if you failed just one subject (out of 6-7), you had to repeat an entire year. You knew well what you needed to do to get an A (very few managed this), to get a B, a C or to just pass it (class was taught to the strongest student and differentiation was handled through different expectations - depth of knowledge). It would never occur to anybody to let a kid who can't read or write sit in a third grade classroom. I am talking about neurotypical kids.

[regentrude]

In my school if you failed just one subject (out of 6-7), you had to repeat an entire year. You knew well what you needed to do to get an A (very few managed this), to get a B, a C or to just pass it (class was tought to the strongest student and differentiation was handled through different expectations - depth of knowledge).

 

 

But Roadrunner, you did not go to school in the US

[Roadrunner]

But Roadrunner, you did not go to school in the US

 

 

I was just trying to show an example that it is done in other places. :)

 

I think asking a teacher to teach multiple grades within each classroom is too much.

[Dana]

 

 

 

What happened to failing a grade? What is a child not knowing the ABCs doing in a third grade class to begin with?

If you are teaching first grade material to a third grader, shouldn't that kid still be in the first grade?

 

In my school if you failed just one subject (out of 6-7), you had to repeat an entire year. You knew well what you needed to do to get an A (very few managed this), to get a B, a C or to just pass it (class was taught to the strongest student and differentiation was handled through different expectations - depth of knowledge). It would never occur to anybody to let a kid who can't read or write sit in a third grade classroom. I am talking about neurotypical kids.

 

It's now social promotion.

In our state, currently all districts (to my knowledge) don't assign grades below 50 to help prevent students from failing.

It is vey very rare to have a student repeat a year. And the summer remediation programs just have the students attend and pass.

[jenbrdsly]

What happened to failing a grade? What is a child not knowing the ABCs doing in a third grade class to begin with?

If you are teaching first grade material to a third grader, shouldn't that kid still be in the first grade?

 

 

I did retain several kids. But when a whole school is failing, then that means that practically every child would have to be retained. The kids who would enter my third grade class not knowing the ABCs were usually new to the country and facing severe poverty issues.

[SKL]

 

I did retain several kids. But when a whole school is failing, then that means that practically every child would have to be retained. The kids who would enter my third grade class not knowing the ABCs were usually new to the country and facing severe poverty issues.

 

 

Interesting thought: on one hand you have well-to-do kids being "redshirted" at a high rate, and on the other end of the spectrum, you have kids whose parents can't afford another year of child care and thus send their kids to school as early as possible, ready or not. Seems to me that retaining kids who can't perform at grade level (for non-temporary reasons) is as kind as redshirting them, especially if it's done early enough.

 

I tutored in a third-grade class in a low-income area, and the teacher informed me that there were only 4 students in the class who had any hope of being promoted. Some of the failing kids were already old for their grade.

 

Then again, social promotion is nothing new, either. My dad was 15 in the 8th grade when the truancy court finally let him drop out, because he couldn't read a 2nd grade reader.

[SKL]

I do not find this brilliant at all. Occasionally, that may be a fun break in routine, but it effectively means that the advanced students do not get instruction. But they are entitled to an education as well - I don't send them to school to act as teacher's aides, but to be taught.

 

The reason I found it brilliant is that it is really helpful to have to explain a concept to another person. I discovered this when I was tutoring a fifth-grader in math, and I had to really break stuff down in order to make sense. Math came easy to me, so I never really had to think about "why" we borrow when we subtract, for example.

 

My sister loved school while I hated it. So my thought is that there must have been something healthy about the interaction. She didn't come out a brainiac, but a very competent and well-rounded person, one who was not afraid to tackle any kind of problem.

 

I'd love for my younger daughter to be recruited as a teaching helper rather than left to do her own thing while the rest of the class catches up (and she's in a high-standard Lutheran school). As it is, she feels lonely and friendless in school. Being the best reader isn't everything.

[MistyMountain]

As I recall, economic researchers from Northwestern? (I could be wrong about that) went into low performing schools and paid kids for good grades. It made a remarkable difference for a lot of them. The researchers point was that if it only takes $100 a year of possible incentive money to get kids to do well in school, then that is a heck of a lot cheaper than society paying the price later for high school drops outs.

 

Did anyone else see that? Please fill me in on everything I've forgotten. :)

 

Haha I actually watched both documentaries on the same day and I immediately thought of that too. It actually didn't make much difference though. They were expecting great results and the change was very small. It wasn't really much of a success. The conclusion was that it could be motivating for kids that were just maybe a grade value in a subject or two away from the goal but I don't know the cost expenditure was worth it. To me the conclusion was it didn't really work.

[MistyMountain]

This movie made me really sad that there are schools that perform so poorly in these bad neighborhoods. I think it was a little tough on teachers and teachers unions but I do get some of the points they were making with that. I do not think teachers shoulder most of the blame of this problem but I agree it should not be impossible to fire a bad teacher.

 

It just isn't right that these kids are not graduating high school and if they do graduate they are barely literate. I don't know how to fix it but there has got to be something that can be done. Other industrialized countries manage to educate most of their citizens and they all beat us on test scores. We throw money at the problem but it isn't working. I do think finding ways for parents who may be single parents who work a lot a way to get involved in their schools and their kid's education. If we tell them how to help their kids and why maybe they will find ways. I think we need more solid curriculum going back to what was used in the old days.

 

I know charter schools are not the answer but we can look at the successful ones and see what they are doing and find what works and use it in the brick and mortar schools. It breaks my heart those kids who were in dismal school that led to drop out factories as they were called in the movies and that school was a way out but there wasn't many spots. I am lucky that my area has an abundance of charter options and zone exemptions for failing schools. I was zoned for a pretty bad school but I had lots of good scoring charters and homeschooling as options.

 

I do like the point they made about tracking. I never thought of that much. My high school had tracking but we shouldn't lump kids like that anymore. There are late bloomers who blossom later in life. Times are different then when that was started and not that many went to college and the ones that didn't could get really good factory jobs.

 

I am still mulling over the movie but it was really hard to see those neighborhoods and the schooling options. We need to invest in our kids because like they movie said prison is a lot more expensive.

[jenbrdsly]

I've been mulling over the movie for a while too. What I finally decided to do was create a page on my blog called "For Teachers". It's meant to help with home-school communication so that teachers can share with parents ways that they can help encourage learning at home. None of the suggestions cost any money to implement.

 

If I was a parent at one of the drop-out factories, and my child didn’t get chosen in the lottery to go to one of the higher performing schools, the first thing I would do would be Google "Didn't get into KIPP" or "Alternatives to Charter School". I thought I could find good search words like that to title my post. But I couldn't! That's not an apparently common search term.

 

So on one hand you have parents who for whatever reason (money/education/social experience) are ready to go bananas and Google everything if their kids' educational dreams get thwarted. On the other hand you have parents who for whatever reason (lack of money/lack of education/degrading experiences due to poverty issues) don't have the energy to go bananas and Google everything, or else don't know that other people do that. Maybe they don't even have a computer, or time to go to the library and use computers that are available. I’m not saying any of this with any judgment.

 

 

But I think that this difference between parenting styles (and how poverty influences that) is a big contributing factor to how schools perform. The documentary didn’t mention that at all.

 

One last thing, when I didn't Google KIPP Alternatives I found this link, which seems to indicate that the KIPP experience isn't as rosy as "Waiting for Superman" would lead you to believe.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Jen, if that hits only one teacher out there...amazing. You are amazing girl. :hurray:

[jenbrdsly]

Has anyone seen this http://playspent.org/ ?

 

It lets you see what it's like to be a single mom earning $9 an hour and trying to make ends meet. There's a bunch of things about education in it that are really heartbreaking. It just shows yet again how poverty factors into the "Waiting for Superman" discussion.

[SarahW]

I picked up a new book at the library: How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the hidden power of character by Paul Tough. I'm only about half way through so far, but it's really interesting.

 

He talks about a lot of things people have mentioned in this thread, the effect parents have on school outcomes, character, motivation and reward.

 

He has a whole chapter about Roseland in Chicago, and another chapter about KIPP.

 

I've learned a lot. Not just about why inner-city schools are failing, but also a lot about myself and how I learn things.

[ktgrok]

 

 

YES! I agree with this 100%. But still... I don't think it should be that you expect schools to do everything. Parents have responsibility too.

 

I don't think they expect schools to do everything. I DO think it is reasonable to expect schools to educate students. That's kind of why they go there. One should not have to teach their children to read/write/do math when they are already in school 6 hours a day.

[SarahW]

I realized that the book I mentioned has a lot of stuff on the internet about it, which may be easier to browse than finding the book at the library:

 

‘How Children Succeed’ — Q&A with Paul Tough : http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2012/10/23/how-children-succeed-qa-with-paul-tough/

 

 

Paul Tough on 'How Children Succeed' through grit, adversity : http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/10/17/daily-circuit-how-children-succeed

 

And all of his articles here http://www.paultough.com/articles/

 

A quote from the Q&A article:

 

Q) Thanks for agreeing to talk about the book. Briefly, what is it about?

A) The book is about two things: first, an emerging body of research that shows the importance of so-called non-cognitive skills in children’s success; and second, a new set of experimental interventions that are trying to use that research to help improve outcomes for children, especially children growing up in

disadvantage. Some of this research is decades old; some is very new. Part of what I’m trying to do in the book is to show the connections between fields of research that are generally kept quite separate, including various branches of economics, neuroscience, pediatrics, and psychology.

Q) What kind of non-cognitive skills are you talking about and are these things that can really be taught in a classroom?

A) The skills I’m talking about include grit, curiosity, perseverance, conscientiousness, self-regulation, and optimism. I do think they can be taught in the classroom – I think most of us can think of a teacher in our past who helped us develop one or more of those skills – but I don’t think we yet have an ideal model for exactly how to teach them in the classroom. There are a couple of experimental classroom interventions that I think seem particularly promising, including Tools of the Mind, which uses extended make-believe play and other teaching strategies to develop self-regulation in 4- and 5-year-olds, and OneGoal, the Chicago-based high school program that teaches juniors and seniors a particular set of non-cognitive skills designed to help them persist in college. But I don’t think it’s an accident that many of the interventions I write about aren’t classroom-based, but are the work of mentors or psychologists or pediatricians or coaches. And the book points out that the most effective time to help a child develop healthy non-cognitive skills is in early childhood, before the first day of school.

[jenbrdsly]

I realized that the book I mentioned has a lot of stuff on the internet about it, which may be easier to browse than finding the book at the library:

 

‘How Children Succeed’ — Q&A with Paul Tough : http://www.washingto...ith-paul-tough/

 

 

Paul Tough on 'How Children Succeed' through grit, adversity : http://minnesota.pub...hildren-succeed

 

And all of his articles here http://www.paultough.com/articles/

 

A quote from the Q&A article:

 

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Wow. Thanks for the links. I'm going to order that book from the library.

[laughing lioness]

It seems like the point of the movie was to show the desperation poeple are feeling about thier educational options- that was the focus, that's what the movie portrayed well.

 

My sister had her kids in school. She was also the only stay at home mom in the neighborhood. She said after school her kitchen would be full of neighborhood kids doing homework. Basically she said she might as well be homeschooling her dd, because she had to explain so much, be so present, etc to help her dd get everything done (she was in the GAT program in an upr middle class neighborhood).

 

For the amount of $ being taxed and spent on public schools, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have expectations about what they will deliver. If we'd demonopolize the government schools, there would be more choice and more excellence.

[SarahW]

 

 

Wow. Thanks for the links. I'm going to order that book from the library.

 

Glad to rec!

 

Now that I've finished it, the most fascinating part of the book for me was the fact that one of the biggest predictors of life accomplishment was the child's assessment in the Strange Situation. The children who "passed" (were attached to their parent) were far more likely to succeed in life than children who "failed" (who were indifferent to their parent).

 

So it's not like he is saying that "grit" is something that comes about from being emotionally independent from birth. Rather, it's something that children can develop only from a place of stable emotional attachments.

 

My 6yo hates being dropped off at school every morning, and runs up and gives me a big hug when I pick him up so....according to this assessment he just might turn out to be successful adult!

[readinmom]

I watched this over the weekend, again. I feel bad for the mom that lost her job, daughter was not allowed to "graduate" with her class. It's wrong when parents are left to feel that their only option to a good education is a charter school; also, that those that are "in" will succeed.

 

Poverty, at any level, sucks. Until we declare our children our greatest natural resource, we will continue to see problems like these.