Janice in NJ Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Why do you assign these? Do you really think these kinds of assignments help build "team"? Because the only thing my kids learn is how to cover their butts so when one (or two) kids in the group do nothing, it doesn't affect the grades of the diligent kids. In other words, they learn how to send multiple emails and re-explain things a kazzillion times to the kids who are checked out. They learn to set deadlines for the deadbeats in the group, so when they do nothing, the kids who are doing something have time to do extra work so it doesn't affect their grade. Is that what you want them to learn? 'Cause I'm not sure they're learning how adults work in teams. I've never been in a team with this wide of a spread when it comes to ability and diligence. And it looks like the prof designed the teams so two hard workers are paired with two hardly even showing up for class types. Is "projects" just teacher code for communism in the classroom? The diligent kids who are doing the reading and their homework are supposed to tutor the not-so-diligent in the material and work ethic for free? Vent over! Peace, Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 For the group projects I am familiar with, students select their own team mates. I completely agree: what you describe turns diligent kids off team work - because it means they will be doing all the work while the slackers reap benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice in NJ Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 THANK YOU for responding!!!! When I was typing, I kinda hoped you would agree with me. Now I can show dd that I'm not crazy and she's not crazy: I have a lot of respect for you, regentrude. And now I respect you even more because you agree with me. :001_smile: Peace, Janice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 The one group project I had in college was for a class that focused on small group communications and interplay. The project was totally open: the group had to find a problem, define it and solve it (or at least offer solutions). We got to pick which group we'd be in. 40% of the grade came from the project and the group could vote students off their group (I forget the rule on this whether it was simple majority or consensus except for the one booted out). This would result in an almost automatic fail of the class. My section had a bit of a controversy when the grad student in charge of our section pressured one group to boot out a star athlete. I'm not sure why the grad student did that if the group didn't complain, but they wouldn't give the star the boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Honestly I see very little value in this type of group work. In real life, yes, you often end up doing all of the work for the ____ because someone else doesn't care and you do, but you don't usually end up having to credit them for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice in NJ Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 It's decided. Group Projects aka Communism in the Classroom Maybe someone should set up a group project to explore the long-term psychological results of exposure to group projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinL in Canada Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Same view here re group projects : ( My three oldest sons all attended a private Christian school for gr 12, and one of their major complaints was exactly what you described. They quickly learned to seek out other diligent kids as their teammates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkateLeft Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Ugh. That's a sensitive topic in our house right now. My daughter dropped a technical writing class this semester because the entire course grade was based on a series of group projects. There were no individual assignments at all. The groups were assigned by the professor at the start of the semester, and unfortunately, she ended up with a bunch of people who just didn't care about their grades. After doing all the work for two group projects, she decided to drop. It was REALLY hard for her to give up on a class, but she wasn't willing to risk her 4.0 GPA on other people getting their work done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Ugh. That's a sensitive topic in our house right now. My daughter dropped a technical writing class this semester because the entire course grade was based on a series of group projects. There were no individual assignments at all. The groups were assigned by the professor at the start of the semester, and unfortunately, she ended up with a bunch of people who just didn't care about their grades. After doing all the work for two group projects, she decided to drop. It was REALLY hard for her to give up on a class, but she wasn't willing to risk her 4.0 GPA on other people getting their work done. Hey, I'm curious did she voice any of this to the professor? While in the real world you can't always do this as directly as you can in college, you can usually get your point in about who has done the work if you get stuck schlepping someone on a project. In a classroom situation, if she is going to drop, or maybe after she has dropped, it wouldn't hurt to drop by a professor's office hours or send an email letting them know why you dropped the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totmama Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Because the only thing my kids learn is how to cover their butts so when one (or two) kids in the group do nothing, it doesn't affect the grades of the diligent kids. In other words, they learn how to send multiple emails and re-explain things a kazzillion times to the kids who are checked out. They learn to set deadlines for the deadbeats in the group, so when they do nothing, the kids who are doing something have time to do extra work so it doesn't affect their grade. This is basically how it works at my real-world job! :) I hear you on your vent, and I'm not trying to be facetious. Just funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen in VA Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Because the only thing my kids learn is how to cover their butts so when one (or two) kids in the group do nothing, it doesn't affect the grades of the diligent kids. In other words, they learn how to send multiple emails and re-explain things a kazzillion times to the kids who are checked out. They learn to set deadlines for the deadbeats in the group, so when they do nothing, the kids who are doing something have time to do extra work so it doesn't affect their grade. That is my kids' experience. Group projects STINK! My kids have only been allowed to choose their groups occasionally, and even when they were involved in group selection, the projects didn't go much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 When I taught undergrads, I never assigned any group projects. My personal experience is as you described. Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Is that what you want them to learn? 'Cause I'm not sure they're learning how adults work in teams. I've never been in a team with this wide of a spread when it comes to ability and diligence. When we had group projects for my engineering undergrad and postgrad courses, we had to submit a project report which includes a Gantt chart. The Gantt chart and report includes all the project tasks and who has been assigned to each. The examiner would question each individual on their part of the project. Our project teams were assigned by the tutors. For undergrad and postgrad, my tutors chose to group by alphabetical order. I had managed teams which has a wide spread of diligence. We gave bonus to people who do more work ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) I've had more than I'd like of them during my schooling. The worst was the one when I was taking a class of all professors and my father died. I had to pull the final project together amid family events and drama, and ended up doing 3/4 of the work. The other professors claimed soccer tournaments, migraines, etc. That one killed any inkling I ever had of assigning them myself. One of my collegues routinely assigned one for the class I also teach. They had received a grant for "service learning" some years back, and they were determined to keep teaching it that way. This professor even got several awards for this project (an award given by other professors, not students). And for years, I always got several students who transferred to my section to avoid that project. Well, this semester I only got one, and she had dropped it with them the previous semester. So I saw them in the hall and asked if they still were teaching that project. The answer was, "No, I got tired of all of the whining. I decided to go back to individual projects." :001_smile: During my research days, naturally there were times that the big shot took credit, but IMHO it is different when you're being paid and that sort of thing is the norm until you get funding for your own projects. When I was in charge, I picked my own team from a group of people that were at least minimally competant and present during work hours. Edited October 11, 2012 by GVA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 My husband assigns group projects because he'd like the students to get some research experience in. However, it would be too time consuming for each student to do all the work for a decent research project. Also, I'm not sure they would have the space for each student to have their own project. My daughter's experience with group projects in college has actually not been too bad. However, she's only had group projects in her honor's courses and her science/engineering courses. I don't know what it would be like in general ed non-honor's courses. She did have one lab partner who just wasn't capable of doing the work in an engineering course. That was a problem. (However, this was another class where there just wasn't the space/materials for everyone to be on their own.) Generally, the professors who are checked in seem to have a good handle on who is and isn't pulling their weight. If the professor doesn't know, there are usually more serious problems with the class than just who's pulling their weight in the group projects. For a time, though, I did have to teach genetics under a guy who insisted that we assign a group quiz grade to groups that studied together. They'd been assigned into their groups. There was a lot of bad feeling about students who needed more help, or who never did understand what was going on. These students weren't slacking off, they just weren't getting things. It created a lot of stress and bullying. I really hated it. In the end, I couldn't take the unfairness of the situation and just started giving super easy quizzes so everyone would get over the minimum grade for the extra points to get assigned to the group. It was really stupid, as harder quizzes would have been more helpful for most of the students to learn the material. But I didn't have the choice to drop the way things were done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 For a time, though, I did have to teach genetics under a guy who insisted that we assign a group quiz grade to groups that studied together. They'd been assigned into their groups. There was a lot of bad feeling about students who needed more help, or who never did understand what was going on. These students weren't slacking off, they just weren't getting things. It created a lot of stress and bullying. I really hated it. In the end, I couldn't take the unfairness of the situation and just started giving super easy quizzes so everyone would get over the minimum grade for the extra points to get assigned to the group. It was really stupid, as harder quizzes would have been more helpful for most of the students to learn the material. But I didn't have the choice to drop the way things were done. Ugh, so they took the tests individually and got graded together? That sounds horrifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I hate group projects too! My worst one was in a group I was assigned to my 1st semester of college where the other members were close friends and only 1 other student and myself weren't in the same sorority. These girls were impossible. They scheduled all the meet ups for when they wanted to meet and ignored my need to be at funeral and visitation for a close relative, they ignored the other girl's work and class schedule, they were so uptight and wanted everything their way (which was ridiculous), rejected all of my ideas and those of the other girl, and assigned themselves the parts they wanted. The other non-sorority girl and I worked our butts off to do our parts but when we told them we could not be there because of xyz and they scheduled a meeting then anyway, it wasn't our fault. Seriously- was the one girl supposed to be fired and was I supposed to miss my grandmother's funeral?? The final act of witchy behavior was when the other girl and I got our grades. The prof. took off a full grade letter because she had received "numerous reports" that we didn't do our parts. I'm still angry about that. I was only 17 and intimidated, embarrassed, wasn't really assertive yet, so I never complained. It was the last week of class so I wouldn't have to go back but I still regret not speaking up. I assume the other girl who was very shy never tried to defend herself either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkateLeft Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hey, I'm curious did she voice any of this to the professor? While in the real world you can't always do this as directly as you can in college, you can usually get your point in about who has done the work if you get stuck schlepping someone on a project. She did try to get in touch with him numerous times. He doesn't read emails, and often doesn't show up for office hours. She tried emailing him to schedule an appointment outside of office hours, to ask his advice on how best to work with her particular group. At the time, she'd decided to be constructive rather than complaining. Over a week went by before he replied, "I'll see you in my office hours." Then he didn't show up. She won't bother letting him know why she dropped the class. It's not worth it, and probably won't change his teaching style. Instead, she'll leave a review on RateMyProfessor. So her problem was a combination of the group assignments comprising the entirety of the course grade, and a disorganized, disinterested professor. I suspect he's one of those people who chooses to have students do all group projects because it's less work for him. The good news is that every other teacher she's had has been wonderful. This one was just a bad apple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Sandra Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Janice, As frustrating as the experience has been for your kids, you rightly observed that they have learned the valuable skill of documenting everything. This is a vital skill in the working world, so perhaps it will ease their frustration to know that something good has come from their negative experience. When they enter the professional world, their "c. your b." files may one day spare them from being thrown under the bus by a colleague. HTH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Let me join flyingiguana as another voice with something positive to say about group projects. (But first I'll note that I never assigned group projects in my Math classes. I would not even know how to do this.) My son had several group projects in his Archaeological Methods course. One project required using surveyor's equipment--more than one person obviously needed. Their major project (and a major portion of their grade) was performed by assigned groups. Everyone in the class was an archaeology major or minor. Their project took advantage of the skills that each member had. The biology major/arch minor had one skill set, for example, that the others lacked. One team member had an official grammar police membership card. Her skills were utilized. Archaeology works via a team approach. My son spent seven weeks at a dig last summer, four of them working on a well. There was a team of three who traded off digging, drawing, communication with other on-site staff, pump monitoring, the physical labor of installing boards to shore the well. It is the sort of work that requires communication and trust. This should be the point of the group exercises performed in classrooms. I do think that group projects probably work best in honors courses or those for serious students within a major. My engineer husband does not work in isolation. Everything is done with a group and requires documentation so that other people can understand each individual contribution. People who do not have communication skills can be at a severe disadvantage in the labor market (as SoCal Sandra also noted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC3 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 In grad school many of us used group projects in class because we were inexperienced and didn’t really know how to lecture for long periods. It was a well-known way to eat up time! My attitude about group projects hasn’t changed much since then. As I became more experienced as a teacher, I moved away from group work because I didn’t find it to be the best way to use the limited amount of class time given. I believe that class time should be spent mostly with the students and teacher working together to discuss the readings for that given week. Group work—although I do think it has a place in college—should be utilized informally between students outside class time, not during the precious time that the professor and the students have together! In the English classroom I don’t think group projects work that well. I do understand that it could have a place for certain kinds of assignments (like a group proposal or presentation), but I don’t assign that kind of work in my writing or literature classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 In grad school many of us used group projects in class because we were inexperienced and didn’t really know how to lecture for long periods. It was a well-known way to eat up time! .... I believe that class time should be spent mostly with the students and teacher working together to discuss the readings for that given week. Group work—although I do think it has a place in college—should be utilized informally between students outside class time, not during the precious time that the professor and the students have together! . In physics, the situation is completely different. Group work has a valuable place during class time (I can highly recommend Eric Mazur's "Confessions of a converted lecturer" ).In fact, inexperienced teachers start out by just lecturing the whole period, LOL. Listening to somebody lecture about physics is not a very effective way, and including group activities ("Peer instruction" as per edu-speak) does enhance understanding to a degree that lecturing won't. As every instructor knows, you only really know a subject when you are teaching it; so this technique gives the students the opportunity to briefly teach each other. Doing this IN class with an instructor present makes it possible to catch misconceptions and to not cement wrong ideas. I actually use a group activities frequently in class. The big difference to what the OP describes is that these are short activities that do not constitute a major part of the course grade - not large projects which have all the disadvantages the OP described. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I think group projects in 100 and 200 level classes - Gen Ed and Pre-Req's essentially - have a negative effect if the students can choose their teammates because of the exact problem described by the OP and there is always a segment of students that will not apply themselves to anything outside their major or are in college for all the wrong reasons, potentially also lazy. However, what I've found at the 300-400 level is that by then, many of these students have been weeded out. The lazy ones don't have the grades to get into their majors, they failed too many classes, etc. I "carried" too many students on "group projects" in those early courses, but actually enjoyed some of the group work in my junior and senior year because in music, you don't make it to the level without extreme diligence and type-A personality. I would think many majors are like that. Therefore, we were at that point, more on an even keel in terms of work-ethic and goals. I never had a slacker from junior year on in my major or minor and we turned out some pretty serious projects. One semester, three of us one the composition award - competing against the music comp majors (which we were not) - for the annual Christmas Carol competition. (Goal was to write a special SATB arrangement for the elite choir along with piano and pit-orchestra accompaniment.) That wouldn't have happened if there had been any slackers. But again, the lazy ones had been bounced from the music department through the first two years for lack of achievement. I am NO fan of schools assigning "group" projects in junior high or high school. There just isn't anything in that environment that good students can do to escape the ones without work ethic. The two years dd attended school 5th and 6th grade, she was stuck in some HORRID kids on group projects and I ended up raising quite a fuss with the administrator and especially since I had dd document every meeting she had with these people and a few we even videotaped. Group projects were suspended for the year and teachers informed that they couldn't assign them unless they were going to do more direct management and have consequences for the kids that wouldn't work so the good students would not be penalyzed by doing all of the work. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 In physics, the situation is completely different. Group work has a valuable place during class time (I can highly recommend Eric Mazur's "Confessions of a converted lecturer" ).In fact, inexperienced teachers start out by just lecturing the whole period, LOL. Listening to somebody lecture about physics is not a very effective way, and including group activities ("Peer instruction" as per edu-speak) does enhance understanding to a degree that lecturing won't. As every instructor knows, you only really know a subject when you are teaching it; so this technique gives the students the opportunity to briefly teach each other. Doing this IN class with an instructor present makes it possible to catch misconceptions and to not cement wrong ideas. I actually use a group activities frequently in class. The big difference to what the OP describes is that these are short activities that do not constitute a major part of the course grade - not large projects which have all the disadvantages the OP described. Ditto -- and I don't even grade mine. I also tell them working in a group is optional, but most of them choose to anyway. I briefly teach a concept. Instead of giving the number of examples I used to, I give fewer examples, and then say 'Now you try this one.' After some time to attempt it, I work the problem. In a smaller class, I will say (towards the end) 'Now you try this one. When you have it correct, you may leave.' This provides an impetus for students to attempt to get the correct answer quickly. Doing the work when I can walk around and catch any misconceptions while they're DOING them is imo far more productive for students. When I was just lecturing, many would watch me do the lecture, and then turn in homework where every problem was incorrect, showing a rather fundamental misunderstanding of the material. Math is not a spectator sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Coming at this from a different perspective, I have worked on several different engineering projects for a few different companies. There are always people who are carried by the rest of the team. Sometimes it is because they just don't know what they are doing and sometimes it is because they just don't care. It is very rare to have a competent cohesive group. I think college is a good place to learn how to work with group dynamics. It may be frustrating to have a bad group when a grade depends on it, but it is much more stressful to have a bad group when you job depends on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Ninja Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I do think that group projects probably work best in honors courses or those for serious students within a major. I agree. It doesn't work from K-12. It is questionable in the first 2-3 years of college because the same dynamics are present. The kids who care, are motivated and comprehend the material do most the work, and the other students slack and get a better grade than they usually get because they are riding on the coattails of the better students. All the good students learn is that they are being used, and they hate group projects. However, my dc have experienced that as juniors and seniors in college, group projects are far more enjoyable, and they don't mind them. My dd said that she has enjoyed them because, in her major, all students have to go to grad school. All the students who are juniors or seniors are serious about their grades and getting into grad school, so they care. They all work together, follow through on their individual parts of the group projects, and meet their deadlines because they want to succeed and get a good grade. Ds said he never thought a group project could work, until that academic level. I think it is true that students need to be 'weeded out' before group projects have a chance of working well for and benefitting all the students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I had an experience when I was taking a course with the army that suggests a different issue with group projects. It was a sort of follow on course to one that I had just taken. We had to do group work in groups of four, but two of the guys in my group had taken the first level course the year before. My problem was, they basically took over the project and I felt like I had no real opportunity to learn the material. They had had a whole extra year to practice some skills, and it was also a much more forign topic to me, and I needed time to work through each aspect of the subject to really get a grasp of it. But the guys on my team were really only interested in getting a high mark and getting it done as quickly as possible. I found that a lot in learning my trade actually. It was one where working in groups was the norm all the time so they trained that way too. But the tendency in group training was always to put people in the role they were best at, or to kind of do their work for them if they were put in a role they were less expert in, so the team showed up well. But that wasn't really always ideal for the people to learn the individual skills. I eventually became pretty good at it, but it took a lot longer than it should have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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