CHURCH TAX in Germany. Say WHAT?

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh come on. To the CATHOLIC (and I married one, who went to Seminary early on, considering the priesthood, so I'm kinda aware of this), denying the sacrament of the Eucharist IS denying the worship. The sacrament is the whole deal. It doesn't "count" without the sacrament of the Eucharist.

 

So you can argue that one all day, but it IS denying worship to a professing Catholic who refuses to pay a tax.

 

So, ALL Catholic churches are refusing worship to me as a non-Catholic? This is the *exact same thing*. These people are declaring themselves to not be Catholic, and they don't want to face the consequences of their action. They are *free to choose a different church*. If they are Catholics, then they need to follow Catholic rules.

[TranquilMind]

So, ALL Catholic churches are refusing worship to me as a non-Catholic? This is the *exact same thing*. These people are declaring themselves to not be Catholic, and don't want to face the consequences of their action. They are *free to choose a different church*. If they are Catholics, then they need to follow Catholic rules.

 

No, it isn't the same. You really aren't Catholic (unless I am mistaken in what you are saying), so you are not a professing Catholic who is barred from participation in the Eucharist. Many of these people are Catholic and want to remain Catholic, but are just not going to pay another tax, on top of the other taxes they already pay, in this Economy. Maybe they lost jobs...who knows?

 

The great irony here is if they abolished the tax, the people would probably pay up voluntarily and willingly. I know I am always more willing to give and I give more when it isn't extracted from me. Extract from me and that's all you will get.

[Tiramisu]

Funny that this should come up...Dh did withdraw himself from the RCC in Germany. The tax was an issue but, personally, I think the root was spiritual. It was a kind of rebellion, really. When we were seeking to marry within the RCC in another country that does not have a church tax, it was determined that he did not technically ex-communicate himself. That actually requires a different, more complex process, we were told.

 

The good news--for those who care about such things--is that we received the sacrament of marriage, and now, several years later, dh attends Mass everyday and the traditional Latin rite on Sundays. So much for youthful rebellion! :D

 

Dh sees the German church tax situation much as Regentrude does, while for me, as an American, it's harder to understand.

[TranquilMind]

Funny that this should come up...Dh did withdraw himself from the RCC in Germany. The tax was an issue but, personally, I think the root was spiritual. It was a kind of rebellion, really. When we were seeking to marry within the RCC in another country that does not have a church tax, it was determined that he did not technically ex-communicate himself. That actually requires a different, more complex process, we were told.

 

The good news--for those who care about such things--is that we received the sacrament of marriage, and now, several years later, dh attends Mass everyday and the traditional Latin rite on Sundays. So much for youthful rebellion! :D

 

Dh sees the German church tax situation much as Regentrude does, while for me, as an American, it's harder to understand.

 

Hmmm. Interesting. Well, you never know how it is going to turn out, as your husband proved. Lots of people get away in their youth but then come back.

[WishboneDawn]

I just can't get that worked up about this. To refuse to pay the church means declaring you're not a Christian and I think the RC church is fully within its rights to deny the sacrament to those who have said they're not Christian. The RC church has said its reviewing the matter. Fine.

 

Seems like it's more a government mess that both Christians and the RC church are caught in.

[WishboneDawn]

No, it isn't the same. You really aren't Catholic (unless I am mistaken in what you are saying), so you are not a professing Catholic who is barred from participation in the Eucharist. Many of these people are Catholic and want to remain Catholic, but are just not going to pay another tax, on top of the other taxes they already pay, in this Economy. Maybe they lost jobs...who knows?

 

 

Indeed. But the other side might be that for the sake of a small amount of money they willingly proclaim that they are not Catholics. Taxes trump faith and religion and the cloak of the church is easily shed when a bit of money is on the table.

[Mrs Mungo]

No, it isn't the same. You really aren't Catholic (unless I am mistaken in what you are saying), so you are not a professing Catholic who is barred from participation in the Eucharist.

 

How are they professing Catholics when they are denying that they are Catholics? Either you are a member of that church or you are not. If you want to be Catholic, then declare yourself one and pay the fee. If you don't want to pay the fee, then join one of the (many) free churches.

[TranquilMind]

WishboneDawn: I just can't get that worked up about this. To refuse to pay the church means declaring you're not a Christian

Not in scripture, it doesn't.

 

Deuteronomy 15:10

Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.

 

Deuteronomy 16:17

Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD your God which He has given you.

 

1 Chronicles 29:9

Then the people rejoiced because they had offered so willingly, for they made their offering to the Lord with a whole heart, and King David also rejoiced greatly.

 

Proverbs 11:24-25

There is one who scatters, and yet increases all the more, and there is one who withholds what is justly due, and yet it results only in want. The generous man will be prosperous, and he who waters will himself be watered.

 

Proverbs 22:9

He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.

Malachi 3:10

“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,†says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

 

Matthew 6:3-4

But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

 

Luke 6:38

Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.

 

2 Corinthians 9:6-8

Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed.

 

James 2:15-16

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,†and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

 

and I think the RC church is fully within its rights to deny the sacrament to those who have said they're not Christian. The RC church has said its reviewing the matter. Fine.

 

 

But they didn't say they weren't Christian. They removed themselves from taxation. This is not the same thing.

[Mrs Mungo]

But they didn't say they weren't Christian. They removed themselves from taxation. This is not the same thing.

 

One, I didn't say they said they weren't Christian. I said they had to claim that they were not a *member of the church* these are very different things.

 

Did you actually read the article? Here are some quotes from various people:

 

"I quit the church already in 2007," Manfred Gonschor, a Munich-based IT-consultant, said. "It was when I got a bonus payment and realized that I could have paid myself a nice holiday alone on the amount of church tax that I was paying on it."

 

"I haven't quit because I still think that I might want to get married in a church one day, even though I know that's absurd," said Anna Ainsley, a 31-old-year banker and a Protestant from Frankfurt. "But when I see my tax declaration, then I think every year that I should finally quit."

 

"This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," the bishops said in a statement. "It is not possible to separate the spiritual community of the Church from the institutional Church."

 

"I know people who quit for financial reasons but then still want their children to be baptized. That's not OK in my opinion," she said.

 

It is clear from the article that in Germany the Catholic church has determined that not paying the tax=quitting the church.

 

eta: My church doesn't do counseling or provide any number of services for people who are *not members of that specific church*. You can come to church, you can be a Christian, you can be part of the body of believers, but *some services* are reserved for members. MOST churches have rules like this of some sort.

[WishboneDawn]

But they didn't say they weren't Christian. They removed themselves from taxation. This is not the same thing.

 

But what is it they have to do to remove themselves from taxation? They have to say they aren't Christian or Catholic. So yes, they DID say they weren't Christian.

 

If they're paying taxes, they are adults. They should be aware of the issue and be aware of the consequences of the choice they made. If their Catholic faith is important to them then perhaps the ideas that underpin the closed sacraments should be as well and they should not be expecting the church to make compromises to suit their preferences.

[WishboneDawn]

One, I didn't say they said they weren't Christian. I said they had to claim that they were not a *member of the church* these are very different things.

 

Did you actually read the article? Here are some quotes from various people:

 

It is clear from the article that in Germany the Catholic church has determined that not paying the tax=quitting the church.

 

eta: My church doesn't do counseling or provide any number of services for people who are *not members of that specific church*. You can come to church, you can be a Christian, you can be part of the body of believers, but *some services* are reserved for members. MOST churches have rules like this of some sort.

 

It sounds like people expecting membership privileges without the weight and responsibility of membership.

[Carol in Cal.]

But what is it they have to do to remove themselves from taxation? They have to say they aren't Christian or Catholic. So yes, they DID say they weren't Christian.

 

 

Exactly.

[Avila]

Is there a point to this besides trying to tar the Catholic Church with extortion or prove that it is unscriptural? Because I think the OP is just arguing for the sake of arguing that, at this point.

 

Plenty of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, have explained what the real story is with this. You obviously don't have to accept it, but it is beginning to look like your whole point is to diminish the faith and rules of faith of other board members.

[Mom-ninja.]

Is there a point to this besides trying to tar the Catholic Church with extortion or prove that it is unscriptural? Because I think the OP is just arguing for the sake of arguing that, at this point.

 

Plenty of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, have explained what the real story is with this. You obviously don't have to accept it, but it is beginning to look like your whole point is to diminish the faith and rules of faith of other board members.

 

I honestly don't understand why someone would get upset about something that is happening in another country, where one doesn't live, isn't a citizen, and has zero effect on one's life.

 

We are not talking about any human rights violations and barring that a country is allowed to make it's own laws.

[rdj2027]

In order to leave the church in Germany you need to go to the Office of the Registrar or directly to the congregational office and file a paper stating you are leaving the Roman Catholic/Lutheran Evangelical church. It simply means you are not a member of either denomination.

[Mrs Mungo]

Not in scripture, it doesn't.

 

You realize that every one of those verses is exhorting people to give? This verse struck me, in particular:

 

“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows."

 

Are you suggesting that the Lord is extorting people here? Is He not requesting a tithe and *then* giving a blessing?

 

Same in this verse:

Luke 6:38

Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.

[Parrothead]

Is there a point to this besides trying to tar the Catholic Church with extortion or prove that it is unscriptural? Because I think the OP is just arguing for the sake of arguing that, at this point.

 

Plenty of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, have explained what the real story is with this. You obviously don't have to accept it, but it is beginning to look like your whole point is to diminish the faith and rules of faith of other board members.

 

I honestly don't understand why someone would get upset about something that is happening in another country, where one doesn't live, isn't a citizen, and has zero effect on one's life.

 

We are not talking about any human rights violations and barring that a country is allowed to make it's own laws.

:iagree::iagree:

 

I'm not getting why this bothers anyone other than the Germans who are involved. The German Catholics who declare to the church registry office that they are no longer Catholic do not need to receive the Sacraments of the Catholic church. It is as simple as that.

 

The decree requires that faithful who declare to a registry office that they are no longer members of the Catholic Church, will no longer be able to actively participate in Church life and there receive the sacraments.

Source

 

That is it in a nutshell. IF one is no longer Catholic one is no longer in need of the sacraments - including the Eucharist.

 

If one is Catholic in Germany one pays the tax. If one is Catholic outside of Germany one pays for the upkeep of the parish church of which one is a member. The money goes to the church one way or another.

 

ETA: If the German Catholics (and Lutherans, Jewish, etc.) don't like the tax, why aren't they working toward changing the law?

Edited September 30, 2012 by Parrothead

[regentrude]

The great irony here is if they abolished the tax, the people would probably pay up voluntarily and willingly.

 

I am pretty sure that you are mistaken. A large portion of formal church members who pay the tax is not actively involved in the church and is not attending worship. They prefer to remain "members" of their church formally, for historical or family or value reasons or because this is how they grew up - but do not participate in active fellowship. If they would not automatically fund the churches through their tax, many would not give a single thought to donating to the church.

(Which is another problem, of course).

[TranquilMind]

]One' date=' I didn't say they said they weren't Christian. I said they had to claim that they were not a *member of the church*[/b'] these are very different things.

You said:

 

Mrs Mungo: How are they professing Catholics when they are denying that they are Catholics? Either you are a member of that church or you are not. If you want to be Catholic, then declare yourself one and pay the fee. If you don't want to pay the fee, then join one of the (many) free churches.

 

So unless your argument is now that denying one is a Catholic is not denying one is a Christian, then this is exactly what you said.

 

 

None of the rest is at issue.

[TranquilMind]

I honestly don't understand why someone would get upset about something that is happening in another country, where one doesn't live, isn't a citizen, and has zero effect on one's life.

 

We are not talking about any human rights violations and barring that a country is allowed to make it's own laws.

 

Sometimes it is just the principle of the thing. :confused:

 

Really? YOu are never concerned about what is happening in any other country?

[Mom2Es]

We have looked into it (as most of the family has dual nationality but we live in the UK and would rather be paying taxes here).

 

When I lived in the U.K., we had to pay both. Inland Revenue was on our backs for a couple of years after we left, too.

[Incognito]

Back when I was in school I wrote a little paper about the Swedish Lutheran Church (state church) compared to my North American Protestant Church (not Lutheran). I wish I could find it and paste it here for you. I grappled a bit with the whole tax thing and said I was glad that we give of free will and it forces us to realize what we are giving and shapes our character that way.

 

I really do think, though, that you should read more about what it means to be Catholic.

 

And perhaps tour a great big church building, then imagine it had only 25 people who regularly attended and needed to fund its maintenance. Yes, church buildings should be supported by their members, but how in the world would that work in post-Christian Europe? Something needs to pay to keep up those beautiful buildings. Or they can just be destroyed, but I would venture to say that the church tax isn't really a matter of faith so much as a cultural tax to support old buildings.

[TranquilMind]

You realize that every one of those verses is exhorting people to give? This verse struck me, in particular:

 

 

 

Are you suggesting that the Lord is extorting people here? Is He not requesting a tithe and *then* giving a blessing?

 

Same in this verse:

 

Yes, but it is not to be demanded, but cheerfully given, voluntarily. That's the heart he wants, if you read it in context and with the NT verses. He says prove me, to see if it isn't true! Not "you'd better, or I got guys in Jersey who will take care of you.".

[Avila]

Yes, but it is not to be demanded, but cheerfully given, voluntarily. That's the heart he wants, if you read it in context and with the NT verses. He says prove me, to see if it isn't true! Not "you'd better, or I got guys in Jersey who will take care of you.".

 

And again, your point is what?

 

That the Church is sending in Jersey guys after people in Germany? Really? :tongue_smilie:

[Whereneverever]

Yes, but it is not to be demanded, but cheerfully given, voluntarily. That's the heart he wants, if you read it in context and with the NT verses. He says prove me, to see if it isn't true! Not "you'd better, or I got guys in Jersey who will take care of you.".

 

:nopity: if people don't like it, they don't have to belong. They can join a free church.

[momma2three]

The great irony here is if they abolished the tax, the people would probably pay up voluntarily and willingly. I know I am always more willing to give and I give more when it isn't extracted from me. Extract from me and that's all you will get.

 

Why do you assume that? It seems like in the US that most churches spend a substantial amount of time and energy asking for money. I don't have hard statistics about that, but it's been true in the churches I've gone to (entire Sunday services devoted to the importance of giving 1-2x per year, mentions every week, special appeals when emergency costs occur, etc).

 

This system actually sounds much more efficient and practical way to raise money, so that the churches can concentrate on actual ministry, instead of spending time fundraising.

[momma2three]

And perhaps tour a great big church building, then imagine it had only 25 people who regularly attended and needed to fund its maintenance. Yes, church buildings should be supported by their members, but how in the world would that work in post-Christian Europe? Something needs to pay to keep up those beautiful buildings. Or they can just be destroyed, but I would venture to say that the church tax isn't really a matter of faith so much as a cultural tax to support old buildings.

 

 

This is a good point, especially since many of these buildings are tourist attractions, and bring in money to local businesses and to the general area when people come to see them. My parents live in Europe and are big "church tourists." They aren't religious but love art and architecture and visit churches all over Europe, and there are a number of people like them.

[TranquilMind]

WishboneDawn: But what is it they have to do to remove themselves from taxation? They have to say they aren't Christian or Catholic. So yes, they DID say they weren't Christian.

 

I'd like to know exactly what the wording is of what they are signing. The articles merely say that they have removed themselves from the roll of the Church for tax reasons.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, but it is not to be demanded, but cheerfully given, voluntarily. That's the heart he wants, if you read it in context and with the NT verses. He says prove me, to see if it isn't true! Not "you'd better, or I got guys in Jersey who will take care of you.".

 

WHAT? Where is anyone threatening anyone with anything except not receiving services from an organization which they proclaim not to be a member of?

 

One' date=' I didn't say they said they weren't Christian. I said they had to claim that they were not a *member of the church*[/b'] these are very different things.

You said:

Quote:

Mrs Mungo: How are they professing Catholics when they are denying that they are Catholics? Either you are a member of that church or you are not. If you want to be Catholic, then declare yourself one and pay the fee. If you don't want to pay the fee, then join one of the (many) free churches.

 

So unless your argument is now that denying one is a Catholic is not denying one is a Christian, then this is exactly what you said.

 

I am a Christian and I am not a Catholic. I am a member of one church in town, and I am not a member of a church of the identical denomination up the road. They have declared that they are not members of the Catholic church. Therefore, the Catholic church no longer feels the need to serve them in the way that they serve actual members of the church as an institution. Are you a member of a church? Do you understand what that means, apart from being part of the body of believers?

[Avila]

You know, if I quit my job, I have no expectation that they will keep sending me a paycheck or that they will pay for my health insurance. No one is holding those things over my head to make me work a job that I don't want, but quitting the job automatically means losing the benefits the job gave me.

 

The fact that a job I voluntarily quit is no longer sending me a paycheck is not extortion.

[TranquilMind]

momma2three: Why do you assume that? It seems like in the US that most churches spend a substantial amount of time and energy asking for money. I don't have hard statistics about that, but it's been true in the churches I've gone to (entire Sunday services devoted to the importance of giving 1-2x per year, mentions every week, special appeals when emergency costs occur, etc).

 

Wow. I would walk out of any church that had so little understanding of God's economy as to spend entire worship times on this.

 

It is barely mentioned where I go. Many churches never mention it at all, and simply have a box at the back where you can give. I prefer that. And we've always been significant givers, but not because of the church or what the guy up front is saying, but because of what God is saying about it in His Word.

 

so that the churches can concentrate on actual ministry, instead of spending time fundraising

 

No church should spend time fundraising. Our pastor said about a month ago that they had needed a new sound system, so they thanked God for a sound system when He brought it in his time. Someone gave them a check the following week for the entire amount, out of an internal motivation to do so. That's how I see things work.

[TranquilMind]

And again, your point is what?

 

That the Church is sending in Jersey guys after people in Germany? Really? :tongue_smilie:

Well...Vinnie and his henchmen are Catholic, you know....you've seen The Sopranos, right?

 

[Just kidding! Making a little joke here about the Jersey guys. ;)]

[Mrs Mungo]

Wow. I would walk out of any church that had so little understanding of God's economy as to spend entire worship times on this.

<snip>

No church should spend time fundraising. Our pastor said about a month ago that they had needed a new sound system, so they thanked God for a sound system when He brought it in his time.

 

Uhhhh...:confused: No church should spend time on asking for money, but your pastor was asking for money for a new sound system in the same sentence?

 

Your posts are coming across as you using the opportunity of this news story to bash the Catholic Church. And I'm not even Catholic.

[Mergath]

TranquilMind, if this is weighing so heavily on your mind, I guess the only option is for you to move to Germany and set up a sort of underground railroad through which you can smuggle communion wafers to lapsed Catholics. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.

[mommaduck]

It might also be best to remember that if we don't belong to a certain group, then we have limited understanding of how things actually work or are read within that group. If you have an issue with said group, just don't join it, trust me, no one is twisting anyone's arm.

[IsabelC]

But the really outrageous thing about Germany is no homeschooling. So I doubt many of us will be lining up to move there!

[regentrude]

I'd like to know exactly what the wording is of what they are signing. The articles merely say that they have removed themselves from the roll of the Church for tax reasons.

 

Here is a link to a standard form that is used to declare leaving the church:

http://xaniaformularserver.de/FORM/248/PDF/3019.pdf

 

After filling in personal info, the wording in box 6 is:

 

I declare that I / my children under 14/ people listed separately

are leaving the following church or religious organization:__________

 

(You'd fill out Roman Catholic of Evangelical Lutheran)

Edited September 30, 2012 by regentrude

[rdj2027]

The form (though you do not have to use it, you can make up your own) says:

 

I (first name, last name) born on (date) in (place) hereby declare my withdrawal from the (enter Roman Catholic or Lutheran Evangelical) denomination.

 

Signed:

 

Identified by: (Personal ID, birth certificate)

 

 

That is all you need to submit (well along with the money for the fee)

[kitten18]

 

So it seems to me that your beef is not with the German situation per se, but with Catholicism altogether. Thus, this whole thread starts to seem of doubtful relevance. (Though it was educational!)

:iagree: I completely agree. That is feeling I have had since the beginning of the thread.

I do appreciate all that I have learned.:001_smile:

[mommaduck]

The thing is, setting aside this tax issue, it is one of the precepts of the Church that Catholics are required to contribute financially according to our ability. Although the church authorities wouldn't normally specify a minimum dollar amount, broadly speaking, this rule would seem to be what you'd describe as an "enforced" donation. The precepts are considered a sort of bare minimum for active church membership, and breaking one of them could be a mortal sin (depending on the circumstances under which it was broken) and make them ineligible for one or more sacraments. So this is considered a serious matter.

 

We also have (to use your language) "enforced Mass attendance" and "enforced catechism exams" and other such requirements.

 

So it seems to me that your beef is not with the German situation per se, but with Catholicism altogether. Thus, this whole thread starts to seem of doubtful relevance. (Though it was educational!)

Some jurisdictions have "enforced confessions"...oh my, how terrible to be counseled by my priest on a regular basis! ;)

[aggieamy]

Boy oh boy do I love threads where non-Catholics are getting all outraged about what Catholics are doing. It just makes my day. Hope all the outraged non-Catholics start explaining our faith to people too. You know, all the Mary worship and eating our young that Catholics do. :glare:

 

TranquilMind, if this is weighing so heavily on your mind, I guess the only option is for you to move to Germany and set up a sort of underground railroad through which you can smuggle communion wafers to lapsed Catholics. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.

 

LOL. What a wonderful soution. You'll have to foot the bill for all the communion wafers yourself though.

 

It might also be best to remember that if we don't belong to a certain group, then we have limited understanding of how things actually work or are read within that group. If you have an issue with said group, just don't join it, trust me, no one is twisting anyone's arm.

 

:iagree:

 

Does anyone care to hear what this Cradle Catholic thinks about the Methodist religion? No? Why not? My neighbor is a Methodist and so was my college room mate!

[mommaduck]

Boy oh boy do I love threads where non-Catholics are getting all outraged about what Catholics are doing. It just makes my day. Hope all the outraged non-Catholics start explaining our faith to people too. You know, all the Mary worship and eating our young that Catholics do. :glare:

 

 

 

LOL. What a wonderful soution. You'll have to foot the bill for all the communion wafers yourself though.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Does anyone care to hear what this Cradle Catholic thinks about the Methodist religion? No? Why not? My neighbor is a Methodist and so was my college room mate!

What, don't you know?! It's okay to beat up on Catholics...just not okay for a Catholic to comment on anyone else ;)

[Laurie4b]

 

I had a private chat with a colleague about this. He explained that the benefits of church membership in German include a tremendous amount of social stuff that is handled by family or government over here, or privately. This includes nursing homes, visiting health care workers, and that sort of thing.

 

This is my understanding as well. You get the same services that the state would provide, but get them through the church, so the state collects money for those services for the church.

 

I think the concept (not the method) similar to some school voucher laws that have been proposed that would include being able to give the voucher to a religious school to provide the services that your local public school would if you chose that.

 

I could be wrong, but that's my impression.

[Laurie4b]

The article says that it extends to other Christians as well.

 

No, just the members of the Lutheran and Catholic Churches. Ds attends a church in Germany and the members don't pay state tax.

[FairyMom]

TranquilMind, if this is weighing so heavily on your mind, I guess the only option is for you to move to Germany and set up a sort of underground railroad through which you can smuggle communion wafers to lapsed Catholics. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.

 

:lol: :lol:

[momma2three]

Wow. I would walk out of any church that had so little understanding of God's economy as to spend entire worship times on this.

 

It is barely mentioned where I go. Many churches never mention it at all, and simply have a box at the back where you can give. I prefer that. And we've always been significant givers, but not because of the church or what the guy up front is saying, but because of what God is saying about it in His Word.

 

 

 

No church should spend time fundraising. Our pastor said about a month ago that they had needed a new sound system, so they thanked God for a sound system when He brought it in his time. Someone gave them a check the following week for the entire amount, out of an internal motivation to do so. That's how I see things work.

 

Churches have bills to pay, and if they're not getting enough voluntary donations, of course they have to ask. You say right here in your post that your pastor does it too. It's nice that someone in your congregation could just write a check like that, but when my church needed $75,000 of roof repairs a few years ago, yes it took several weeks of the deacons standing up in every service to talk about what needed to be done and how the church needed donations. It doesn't really seem like a sensible answer for people to just throw up their hands and leave when an organization that's important to them needs to pay their bills.

[Juniper]

The whole tax part of this thread fascinates me. I was thinking about when Jesus told Peter to catch a fish and open it's mouth. Inside were the two coins to pay the temple tax. Then he makes the famous statement of "giving to Caesar what is Caesar's."

 

I have never quite looked at it in this light. Jesus was paying a "church" tax...to the Roman government. He commands Peter to do the same. I am not really drawing any conclusions at this point, but I do find it interesting.

 

To go further, he gets upset about the money changers and lenders IN the temple, but not at the tax the Romans have him pay to even be able to participate in the worship at the Temple.

[TranquilMind]

Mrs Mungo: Uhhhh...:confused: No church should spend time on asking for money, but your pastor was asking for money for a new sound system in the same sentence?

 

He wasn't asking for money. It just kept squealing, and he had to change mikes several times. Then he said, "Well, we will need a new sound system one of these days; Thank you, Lord, for when you send that." Someone apparently decided that it was for him to do, and did pay for it anonymously, subsequent to that.

 

Your posts are coming across as you using the opportunity of this news story to bash the Catholic Church. And I'm not even Catholic.

 

Well, you are mistaken. I'm just not following the logic, when virtually the entirety of the Mass rests on the Eucharist. No pay, no Eucharist. I have a problem with that.

[TranquilMind]

momma2three: Churches have bills to pay, and if they're not getting enough voluntary donations, of course they have to ask.

 

Why aren't they giving?

 

 

You say right here in your post that your pastor does it too.

 

No, I did not mean to suggest that. I clarified in a previous post.

 

 

It's nice that someone in your congregation could just write a check like that, but when my church needed $75,000 of roof repairs a few years ago, yes it took several weeks of the deacons standing up in every service to talk about what needed to be done and how the church needed donations.

 

This would irk me to no end. Several weeks of blathering on about it every service? Why not just tell them once? Pressure, pressure, pressure.

 

 

It doesn't really seem like a sensible answer for people to just throw up their hands and leave when an organization that's important to them needs to pay their bills.

 

Nor does it seem sensible to deny the crux of the worship to people who won't pony up the dough. And I'd question how much is really "needed" to pay the bills, as compared to what is customary. Maybe we don't need large churches at all? I understand if they are already built, but historical associations renovate those all the time.

[TranquilMind]

The whole tax part of this thread fascinates me. I was thinking about when Jesus told Peter to catch a fish and open it's mouth. Inside were the two coins to pay the temple tax. Then he makes the famous statement of "giving to Caesar what is Caesar's."

 

I have never quite looked at it in this light. Jesus was paying a "church" tax...to the Roman government. He commands Peter to do the same. I am not really drawing any conclusions at this point, but I do find it interesting.

 

To go further, he gets upset about the money changers and lenders IN the temple, but not at the tax the Romans have him pay to even be able to participate in the worship at the Temple.

 

 

That's actually the best biblical point on this that I've seen yet. Good catch!

 

But in the last paragraph, I think that is the point. Romans did what they did, and He didn't expect more of them. But for those in the Temple, insiders, who ought to know better, He found this sort of moneychanging contemptible.