TOG - too much. SL too little. Suggestion for high school history and lit?

[momee]

We've done SL core 100 and are on the cusp of ordering 200. I have reservations though, based on what I've seen so far.

 

Regarding SL - we are happy with it so far but I do feel the literary analysis is weak and the writing is non-instructive.

 

TOG is an option though it would have to be drastically pared down. I like it fine, the pace is just unrealistic for this student. Actually I think it is unrealistic for most students at the high school level, but that's a personal opinion.

 

Anyone come up with something in the middle of the two?

 

(probably stepping on lots of toes in my analysis but that's how I feel about them)

Edited September 17, 2012 by momee

[jessicalb]

I just make up my own history curriculum and use IEW for the writing portion. My basic formula is choose an excellent source or two for the core information, find a bunch of supporting books and documentaries and activities, discuss everything, invite questions and exploration, and have the student respond in some way (drawing, projects, writing, whatever).

 

The beauty of this is that it can so easily be ramped up or down for the student and/or the life circumstances. And, it can so easily be modified if any aspect isn't working.

[Tenaj]

My Father's World?

[caroljenn]

We love My Father's World!

[Candid]

Tapestry does offer trimming charts for all the year plans except the first year. You may wish to see if those are online so you could look at them.

 

I disagree with it being too fast for most students as I teach a small co-op and thus far we have been fine with the pace in lit and we certainly don't have all advanced students.

[Candid]

My Father's World?

 

I think MFW has even less lit than Sonlight, but I have not compared directly recently. I maybe be mistaken on this.

[momee]

Thanks for your responses everyone. Even yours, Candid :) Even though we disagree...I appreciate your response.

 

I guess I had a different experience. A 9th grade boy doing year 1 rhetoric and he grew to HATE literature. We got through year 1 and began year 2. Once we were tasked with the three Shakespeare plays over 6 weeks we were fried! That was the end of TOG for us.

 

I have a completely different learner coming into high school now and am stuck with where to go with her. She won't even look at TOG because her brother hated it so much.

 

But thanks for your thoughts, they caused me to click on the website (Now whether that was good/bad? We'll see.)

[Guest BookShopLady]

ToG is not for the faint of heart. I would like to offer one more comment on ToG, whether you use it or not, but before I do...no matter which curriculum a family chooses for homeschooling it is about loving to learn for life and loving life and not about the curriculum!

 

Our family deals with too much info on a weekly basis due to ToG, but if the kids get through even 2 of the 20 books recommended, we have an impressive history/lit/art/gov/philosophy discussion during our family time. We also use this curriculum in a co-op setting and after 2 years together (starting our third), everyone has finally come to a happy balance. The authors of ToG never intended that it be used in its entirety or that every book without exception should be read and discussed. I love the saying, "take in knowledge like drinking out of a fire hose." That is what Tapestry presents!

 

I have used Sonlight, thoroughly explored MFW, used Veritas Press elementary & Omnibus and I have finally landed on ToG. I don't recommend ToG, though until the oldest child in the family is at least a fifth grader! I also believe that the value of ToG comes from the student's choice of what books and topics to study for any given week as long as all the student's are studying the same week...this makes the richest conversation. My husband (a brainy, philosophical, engineer who teaches advanced courses at our local Community College) is staggered by the things his kids discuss at the dinner table!

 

To be successful with ToG, one must not see the curriculum as the teacher, but rather as a loose guide & wise suggestion. If you tried to do all of the books-you would go loony in three weeks!!

 

I respect each family's choice of curriculum. I just wanted folks to know it is possible to be successful with ToG if you can be its master and not let it master you!

 

~Curriculum Junkie & Homeschool Mom of 3 Independent High Schoolers

[curlylocks]

ToG is not for the faint of heart. I would like to offer one more comment on ToG, whether you use it or not, but before I do...no matter which curriculum a family chooses for homeschooling it is about loving to learn for life and loving life and not about the curriculum!

 

Our family deals with too much info on a weekly basis due to ToG, but if the kids get through even 2 of the 20 books recommended, we have an impressive history/lit/art/gov/philosophy discussion during our family time. We also use this curriculum in a co-op setting and after 2 years together (starting our third), everyone has finally come to a happy balance. The authors of ToG never intended that it be used in its entirety or that every book without exception should be read and discussed. I love the saying, "take in knowledge like drinking out of a fire hose." That is what Tapestry presents!

 

I have used Sonlight, thoroughly explored MFW, used Veritas Press elementary & Omnibus and I have finally landed on ToG. I don't recommend ToG, though until the oldest child in the family is at least a fifth grader! I also believe that the value of ToG comes from the student's choice of what books and topics to study for any given week as long as all the student's are studying the same week...this makes the richest conversation. My husband (a brainy, philosophical, engineer who teaches advanced courses at our local Community College) is staggered by the things his kids discuss at the dinner table!

 

To be successful with ToG, one must not see the curriculum as the teacher, but rather as a loose guide & wise suggestion. If you tried to do all of the books-you would go loony in three weeks!!

 

I respect each family's choice of curriculum. I just wanted folks to know it is possible to be successful with ToG if you can be its master and not let it master you!

 

~Curriculum Junkie & Homeschool Mom of 3 Independent High Schoolers

 

:iagree: - - there is great wisdom in this post!

[luvnlattes]

We are using TOG here but my 9th grader is doing a D/R blend. I thought about switching to something else but there are so many things that I like about TOG I wanted to continue. However, I knew for my son it would be total overload if we went with the full-on R schedule. I was inspired by some posts on Harmony Art Mom's blog that talked about how she has tweaked TOG to make it work for her family. A couple of the posts that helped me were:

 

http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com/2009/02/tapestry-of-grace-and-my-struggle-to.html

 

and http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com/2011/02/tapestry-of-grace-and-notebooking-how.html

 

After reading these (and possibly others I can't find right now) I was inspired to make TOG our own...tweak it in a way that will work for our family. So my son has 2 or 3 R lit selections and the rest will come from the D list. He is not reading every selection and I am incorporating the lit into an overall English credit that has other work included.

 

I previewed the D and R history selections and chose the level that I thought he was capable of. The depth of the answers he brings to the discussions are what make me comfortable that he is doing high school level work.

 

You may decide that this isn't the route for you, but I wanted to encourage you in case you are wanting to do a pared down version of TOG.

[Candid]

Thanks for your responses everyone. Even yours, Candid :) Even though we disagree...I appreciate your response.

 

I guess I had a different experience. A 9th grade boy doing year 1 rhetoric and he grew to HATE literature. We got through year 1 and began year 2. Once we were tasked with the three Shakespeare plays over 6 weeks we were fried! That was the end of TOG for us.

 

I have a completely different learner coming into high school now and am stuck with where to go with her. She won't even look at TOG because her brother hated it so much.

 

But thanks for your thoughts, they caused me to click on the website (Now whether that was good/bad? We'll see.)

 

Well, I will say I would have steered you to a different year plan for ninth grade. I consider Year 2 the biggest of the year plans both on volume and on difficult materials. I think the Shakespeare part is the easier part of that year plan and I'm impressed he didn't bail at Dante.

 

Do look at the trimming plan, but with your daughter, chose a year plan that matches her level to begin with and show her the books. Tell her she'll have to work hard then tell her it is Tapestry. I've had to work through a similar problem because my now 10th grader tried to read Dante back when he was sixth grade because I was reading it. He was sure it was the worst thing ever. He's just finished the whole two week Tapestry reading and in one giant sitting and admitted that although not entirely easy it wasn't as horrible as he had remembered.

[rjand6more]

I think MFW has even less lit than Sonlight, but I have not compared directly recently. I maybe be mistaken on this.

 

Lit volume, yes, MFW does not have the volume. It does have more substance to the program, though, and the writing assignments are excellent with lots of instruction.

 

I have used SL through Core 100. This is our 3rd year with MFW high school.

[shanvan]

We are using TOG here but my 9th grader is doing a D/R blend. I thought about switching to something else but there are so many things that I like about TOG I wanted to continue. However, I knew for my son it would be total overload if we went with the full-on R schedule. I was inspired by some posts on Harmony Art Mom's blog that talked about how she has tweaked TOG to make it work for her family. A couple of the posts that helped me were:

 

http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com/2009/02/tapestry-of-grace-and-my-struggle-to.html

 

and http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com/2011/02/tapestry-of-grace-and-notebooking-how.html

 

After reading these (and possibly others I can't find right now) I was inspired to make TOG our own...tweak it in a way that will work for our family. So my son has 2 or 3 R lit selections and the rest will come from the D list. He is not reading every selection and I am incorporating the lit into an overall English credit that has other work included.

 

I previewed the D and R history selections and chose the level that I thought he was capable of. The depth of the answers he brings to the discussions are what make me comfortable that he is doing high school level work.

 

You may decide that this isn't the route for you, but I wanted to encourage you in case you are wanting to do a pared down version of TOG.

 

Thank you! We had a really long post a while back about ways that families make TOG work for them. I don't remember these being linked and they are great! Another tool in my arsenal that will help me make it work for us. I especially love that she shows how she picks and chooses and does not try to cover everything. I'm trying to let go of the idea of an 'ideal' TOG week meaning we followed the plan as written and embrace the concept that we followed it as I deemed best for our family. It really is about whether or not Dc are learning and producing appropriate work for their level.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

ToG is not for the faint of heart. I would like to offer one more comment on ToG, whether you use it or not, but before I do...no matter which curriculum a family chooses for homeschooling it is about loving to learn for life and loving life and not about the curriculum!

 

Our family deals with too much info on a weekly basis due to ToG, but if the kids get through even 2 of the 20 books recommended, we have an impressive history/lit/art/gov/philosophy discussion during our family time. We also use this curriculum in a co-op setting and after 2 years together (starting our third), everyone has finally come to a happy balance. The authors of ToG never intended that it be used in its entirety or that every book without exception should be read and discussed. I love the saying, "take in knowledge like drinking out of a fire hose." That is what Tapestry presents!

 

I have used Sonlight, thoroughly explored MFW, used Veritas Press elementary & Omnibus and I have finally landed on ToG. I don't recommend ToG, though until the oldest child in the family is at least a fifth grader! I also believe that the value of ToG comes from the student's choice of what books and topics to study for any given week as long as all the student's are studying the same week...this makes the richest conversation. My husband (a brainy, philosophical, engineer who teaches advanced courses at our local Community College) is staggered by the things his kids discuss at the dinner table!

 

To be successful with ToG, one must not see the curriculum as the teacher, but rather as a loose guide & wise suggestion. If you tried to do all of the books-you would go loony in three weeks!!

 

I respect each family's choice of curriculum. I just wanted folks to know it is possible to be successful with ToG if you can be its master and not let it master you!

 

~Curriculum Junkie & Homeschool Mom of 3 Independent High Schoolers

 

I think this is true about most curriculum. We used SL for a couple years. One year we went almost completely by the schedule. Other years I used the schedule as a starting point for a couple weeks and then did a couple weeks of more in depth reading on the period.

 

We've used TOG mainly as a scheduling device, without doing any of their literature. I find the readings seem a little unbalanced from week to week. Some weeks have books that make me wince, they are so challenging (and I have a degree in English lit and love history). Other weeks seem not to differentiate between rhetoric and dialectic. It doesn't matter. It's my tool. I am not the servant of my curriculum.

 

For the OP, have you looked at the history chapter in The Well Trained Mind? I've found that to be a good way of finding the right fit for us.

[M&M]

I suppose the question is , "In which direction would you prefer to tweak?" If SL is not enough of what you want and TOG is too much, would you prefer to cut or add to your choice?

 

I understand your struggle with TOG, I have it I use it and Year 2 was killer for dd. We skimmed through year 3 and now are happily doing Y4.

 

Why are we happy now? I have made changes, I am steering this ship, not TOG. I allow dd to choose what she would like to read for lit, we don't do all the TOG analysis. This year we will do a mix of LToW and WTM, and sometimes we will do a little of TOG...and some days we will just read and enjoy. We will cut, trim, skip. Right now dd loves the history books, when she gets tired of them I will pick something else to do, maybe we'll just watch some movies, look at our timeline book, and read the literature. I have changed my focus I no longer care so much about gaps, missing content, my focus is on truth, beauty and virtue. I want to see the light in my dc's eyes because they connect with what they are learning in some way.

 

I let curriculum suck the life out of our school day, it was not the curriculum's fault, the fault was mine. Life got busy, very busy and I let the plans of others determine what my children's learning looked like. When things didn't work I felt guilty and had trouble determining what was wrong. It has taken many years to feel this confident, and I spent the summer really looking at my options, funny thing is that the books I wanted to use with all 5 of my dc were in fact in TOG already scheduled. Even the FIAR books I wanted to use with my youngest! I knew that I could now use TOG fully with all of my children and not get bogged down. I treat TOG the same way I do my library, there are lots of books I cannot take them all home I pick and choose what I like. I take those books home, some get read, and some do not. I don't let it bother me that some books don't get read, and I don't fret that I left lots of books untouched on the library shelves. TOG narrows down my public library, and gives me a starting point for each week.

 

If this is not for you, then add to SL or MFW or whatever else you fancy..bottom line is that you must determine what works for you as the teacher, and then you can work out how to present the material to your student.

[CyndiLJ]

Might I suggest Notgrass? I was impressed with their history and literature components, and thought there was a really nice balance there with no overkill.

 

Cindy

[Pretty in Pink]

You do not have to do all of TOG every year. Pick and choose which credits you want to award during which years. I imagine you would do all four years of history and literature. Do one year or semester of government, fine arts, church history and geography. You don't have to do it all.

 

There was an excellent thread on this a long time ago and I lost it when I switched computers. Perhaps someone else knows what I'm referring to and can link it? I swear I saw it in the K-8 board, but I could be mistaken. I ran across it at about 2 a.m. once.

[luvnlattes]

I especially love that she shows how she picks and chooses and does not try to cover everything.

 

This was what was helpful for me and I'm glad it was for you too.

 

I'm trying to let go of the idea of an 'ideal' TOG week meaning we followed the plan as written and embrace the concept that we followed it as I deemed best for our family. It really is about whether or not Dc are learning and producing appropriate work for their level.

 

:iagree:

[Tiffani]

I suppose the question is , "In which direction would you prefer to tweak?" If SL is not enough of what you want and TOG is too much, would you prefer to cut or add to your choice?

 

I understand your struggle with TOG, I have it I use it and Year 2 was killer for dd. We skimmed through year 3 and now are happily doing Y4.

 

Why are we happy now? I have made changes, I am steering this ship, not TOG. I allow dd to choose what she would like to read for lit, we don't do all the TOG analysis. This year we will do a mix of LToW and WTM, and sometimes we will do a little of TOG...and some days we will just read and enjoy. We will cut, trim, skip. Right now dd loves the history books, when she gets tired of them I will pick something else to do, maybe we'll just watch some movies, look at our timeline book, and read the literature. I have changed my focus I no longer care so much about gaps, missing content, my focus is on truth, beauty and virtue. I want to see the light in my dc's eyes because they connect with what they are learning in some way.

 

I let curriculum suck the life out of our school day, it was not the curriculum's fault, the fault was mine. Life got busy, very busy and I let the plans of others determine what my children's learning looked like. When things didn't work I felt guilty and had trouble determining what was wrong. It has taken many years to feel this confident, and I spent the summer really looking at my options, funny thing is that the books I wanted to use with all 5 of my dc were in fact in TOG already scheduled. Even the FIAR books I wanted to use with my youngest! I knew that I could now use TOG fully with all of my children and not get bogged down. I treat TOG the same way I do my library, there are lots of books I cannot take them all home I pick and choose what I like. I take those books home, some get read, and some do not. I don't let it bother me that some books don't get read, and I don't fret that I left lots of books untouched on the library shelves. TOG narrows down my public library, and gives me a starting point for each week.

 

If this is not for you, then add to SL or MFW or whatever else you fancy..bottom line is that you must determine what works for you as the teacher, and then you can work out how to present the material to your student.

 

:iagree: Yes! What she said!!

I've used SL and some others for high school. I make TOG work. I don't let it work me :)

This is how I tweak. I have some Progeny Press lit. studies that we're using for British Lit for my senior. My freshman is reading some TOG books and doing some PP studies. We also implement IEW into writing assignments.

I've used Notgrass for Econ and govt. simply b/c I wasn't using TOG at the time to be able to use it for 4 years to get the govt. credit. These are just a few examples of how I make it work for us.

[shanvan]

You do not have to do all of TOG every year. Pick and choose which credits you want to award during which years. I imagine you would do all four years of history and literature. Do one year or semester of government, fine arts, church history and geography. You don't have to do it all.

 

There was an excellent thread on this a long time ago and I lost it when I switched computers. Perhaps someone else knows what I'm referring to and can link it? I swear I saw it in the K-8 board, but I could be mistaken. I ran across it at about 2 a.m. once.

 

I think I know the thread you mean. It's bookmarked on my other computer. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[shanvan]

You do not have to do all of TOG every year. Pick and choose which credits you want to award during which years. I imagine you would do all four years of history and literature. Do one year or semester of government, fine arts, church history and geography. You don't have to do it all.

 

There was an excellent thread on this a long time ago and I lost it when I switched computers. Perhaps someone else knows what I'm referring to and can link it? I swear I saw it in the K-8 board, but I could be mistaken. I ran across it at about 2 a.m. once.

 

Is it the advice from Janice in this thread?

 

You wouldn't believe how many times I've looked this up, bookmarked, lost, printed, lost, looked up, bookmarked...you get the idea. I'm getting good at finding it!

[MAIMOM]

Is it the advice from Janice in this thread?

 

Oh My!!!! Thank you for posting this link!!!! I am so very thankful for the info in this post. What a blessing! I look forward to putting her wise encouragement to work!

[Shelly in VA]

Regarding SL - we are happy with it so far but I do feel the literary analysis is weak and the writing is non-instructive.

 

Hey there! :001_smile: If you are looking to stay with SL, but supplement their literary analysis, have you considered Windows to the World: An Introduction to Literary Analysis from IEW? I started this in the spring with my two teens, and they love it. I was not surprised that dd enjoyed it, but I was floored that ds15 liked it. This is a subject I thought I would have to drag him through, but the stories and exercises have been very engaging to him. If you haven't seen it, you should know that it uses short stories to teach literary analysis, but you could easily have your students doing additional longer reads without requiring specific lit analysis work on those.

 

Hth!

[sandra in va]

We've done SL core 100 and are on the cusp of ordering 200. I have reservations though, based on what I've seen so far.

 

Regarding SL - we are happy with it so far but I do feel the literary analysis is weak and the writing is non-instructive.

 

 

Hi Momee!

I remember when you switched from TOG to SL - and how it was very freeing for you schedule-wise. Are you still enjoying that aspect of SL? B/c honestly, that was one of the main reasons we returned to SL after using TOG for a few years.

 

SL isn't perfect, though. We had the same issues with it that you mentioned - specifically the lit analysis and the writing. We are big IEW users here, so we supplement with that in elementary school and junior high. However, my high schoolers are taking online courses - my freshman is doing a writing tutorial and a LL course to supplement. My junior is taking AP English Language through PAH.

 

So, that is my middle of the road - we use SL but we don't use their writing and supplement with some lit analysis.

 

Hope that helps!

[Zoo Keeper]

We've done SL core 100 and are on the cusp of ordering 200. I have reservations though, based on what I've seen so far.

 

Regarding SL - we are happy with it so far but I do feel the literary analysis is weak and the writing is non-instructive.

 

TOG is an option though it would have to be drastically pared down. I like it fine, the pace is just unrealistic for this student. Actually I think it is unrealistic for most students at the high school level, but that's a personal opinion.

 

Anyone come up with something in the middle of the two?

 

(probably stepping on lots of toes in my analysis but that's how I feel about them)

 

My guys are younger than high school, but we use SL. I love how the schedule keeps me going and is not overwhelming. But I agree that the writing and literary anaylsis is not what I am looking for. I have done a test run of TOG (those big samples) in the past, and it was just. too. much.

 

My solution has been to keep on plugging away with SL, add in some extra/different books if I felt it was needed, and use SWB's lectures on literary analysis and writing (here's the middle grades one, and the high school one). Good stuff there. :001_smile: I plan on keeping this combo going as long as possible.

[Mommyfaithe]

Where have you been all my life??? :grouphug:

Seriously, this is why we do NOT use TOG. I have some of the classic sets and use them in my planning, but totally fall back on WTM guidelines for my high schoolers. I need my kids to be independent learners who depend on me to keep them on track and to be their mentor...not their warden.

 

Anyway, ThAnks for your great post....can we be friends:D?

 

 

ToG is not for the faint of heart. I would like to offer one more comment on ToG, whether you use it or not, but before I do...no matter which curriculum a family chooses for homeschooling it is about loving to learn for life and loving life and not about the curriculum!

 

Our family deals with too much info on a weekly basis due to ToG, but if the kids get through even 2 of the 20 books recommended, we have an impressive history/lit/art/gov/philosophy discussion during our family time. We also use this curriculum in a co-op setting and after 2 years together (starting our third), everyone has finally come to a happy balance. The authors of ToG never intended that it be used in its entirety or that every book without exception should be read and discussed. I love the saying, "take in knowledge like drinking out of a fire hose." That is what Tapestry presents!

 

I have used Sonlight, thoroughly explored MFW, used Veritas Press elementary & Omnibus and I have finally landed on ToG. I don't recommend ToG, though until the oldest child in the family is at least a fifth grader! I also believe that the value of ToG comes from the student's choice of what books and topics to study for any given week as long as all the student's are studying the same week...this makes the richest conversation. My husband (a brainy, philosophical, engineer who teaches advanced courses at our local Community College) is staggered by the things his kids discuss at the dinner table!

 

To be successful with ToG, one must not see the curriculum as the teacher, but rather as a loose guide & wise suggestion. If you tried to do all of the books-you would go loony in three weeks!!

 

I respect each family's choice of curriculum. I just wanted folks to know it is possible to be successful with ToG if you can be its master and not let it master you!

 

~Curriculum Junkie & Homeschool Mom of 3 Independent High Schoolers

[JadeOrchidSong]

We are using TOG here but my 9th grader is doing a D/R blend. I thought about switching to something else but there are so many things that I like about TOG I wanted to continue. However, I knew for my son it would be total overload if we went with the full-on R schedule. I was inspired by some posts on Harmony Art Mom's blog that talked about how she has tweaked TOG to make it work for her family. A couple of the posts that helped me were:

 

http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com/2009/02/tapestry-of-grace-and-my-struggle-to.html

 

and http://harmonyartmom.blogspot.com/2011/02/tapestry-of-grace-and-notebooking-how.html

 

After reading these (and possibly others I can't find right now) I was inspired to make TOG our own...tweak it in a way that will work for our family. So my son has 2 or 3 R lit selections and the rest will come from the D list. He is not reading every selection and I am incorporating the lit into an overall English credit that has other work included.

 

I previewed the D and R history selections and chose the level that I thought he was capable of. The depth of the answers he brings to the discussions are what make me comfortable that he is doing high school level work.

 

You may decide that this isn't the route for you, but I wanted to encourage you in case you are wanting to do a pared down version of TOG.

 

Thank you very much for sharing!