Scratching my head on this news story....

[teamturner]

This is just so sad! An elected official shouldn't be this stupid.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,380143,00.html

 

When you visit the local Dallas/Fort Worth news station's website, there is a place to vote if you think it's racist or not and when I voted there were actually a little over 2% that agreed that it was. What??? :confused:

 

This guy needs to go back to high school science class and perhaps an English class to understand what an analogy is. Or is it a metaphor? I didn't major in English and I only have emerging 3rd graders so we haven't gotten that far yet. :tongue_smilie:

 

Here's the actual news story from the local tv interview:

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/pollP44Question

[fivetails]

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. :lol:

 

That's nuts. "Black hole" is a term from astronomy - and it has nothing to do with black people. :rolleyes:

 

His examples don't relate to each other - he compared "black hole" to "jew you down" ....what the heck?

 

 

(and the cake thing? I think someone's head has cake in it.)

 

Weird.

[PrairieAir]

What friggin' idiot! Did it ever occur to him that angel food cake is called that because it's light and airy and that devil food cake is so named because it's so rich it's almost sinful? Arent' black sheep less common than white sheep? Couldn't the term black sheep have something to do with superstition rather than race? I don't know. There are a lot of other thoughts that would occur to me about the origins of these terms before racism. The black hole thing is just completely moronic though. Hmmm. Maybe I'm not supposed to use the term moron either? Talking about "Jewing" someone down is another story entirely since it specifically mentions an ethnicity. :glare:

[lynn]

This is just plain ignorance, stupid I don't know.

[GraceinMD]

It reminds me of the situation several years ago in D.C., where a public official resigned because he had offended people by using the term 'niggardly' (miserly) when talking about the administration of a fund. People, of course, accused him of using "the n word," and his ability to be effective was kaput. It didn't even matter that he pointed out that the two words aren't even SPELLED the same, and there is no racist meaning in 'niggardly'. Sad.

 

Interesting reading on this particular controversy on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22), including an incident where a school teacher had to apologize for teaching the word - it offended a parent because it "sounds similar to a racial slur." There's also the university student who was offended (at U of Wisc) and who said, "I was in tears, shaking," she told the faculty. "It's not up to the rest of the class to decide whether my feelings are valid."

 

Note to self: continue vocabulary studies for ds!

 

Note to Hive Mind, especially those who are African-American (or who have African-American family members):

~do we who are white need to be more racially sensitive in cases like the OP's Fox News story and the 'niggardly' situation?

~do those of us who "don't get it" not get it because we don't have to think about race all the time? I'd really like to have a little more insight here.

 

Note to OP: I hope I didn't hijack your thread! Thanks for posting - I find use of language a fascinating subject.

[jail warden]

Hmmmm.... I think it's called a black hole, because you can't see anything, therefore it's black. Nothing to do with race!

 

It is sad that it's coming to this. That we need to tiptoe around everyone. I don't want to be ignorant and hurt people's feelings at all, but to the point where everyone is offended over such trivial comments is just rediculous.

[Mom2GirlsTX]

Oh I'm in DFW and hadn't seen that, but I try hard not to keep up with Dallas politics unless it is airing on my beloved classical radio station WRR.

If you have been around her long enough, these stupid type quips have been going back and forth for years. A scientific term is racist? Oh please!

Then I saw the name John Wiley Price the story made sense to me, since he was involved. Google his name and you will find years of this kind of thinking. JWP loves to be the center of the news/attention. He has been complaining aobut everything for years, so makes sense that black hole and angel food cake are next to get his goat. Honestly, this guy loves to complain.

[teamturner]

It reminds me of the situation several years ago in D.C., where a public official resigned because he had offended people by using the term 'niggardly' (miserly) when talking about the administration of a fund. People, of course, accused him of using "the n word," and his ability to be effective was kaput. It didn't even matter that he pointed out that the two words aren't even SPELLED the same, and there is no racist meaning in 'niggardly'. Sad.

 

Note to OP: I hope I didn't hijack your thread! Thanks for posting - I find use of language a fascinating subject.

 

Yes, I remember the niggardly situation too. Here's what a blogger who posted on the local news website had to say about the use of "black".....

 

For years "Whities" have been associating "Black" with something/anything "bad" or "scary". This has been passed on from the slave days and has become a lingo and accepted language to use in the general public. The word "Black" has been used in Business, social and day to day conversation in a degrading way. Take this for an example:

- Black Market?

- Black Hole

- Black Cloud?

- "...the difference is black and white". In this context, white being good and black being bad.

The rejection and discontent from the African American community comes because there are too many things, events etc that are marked black to describe bad. And we all know why this is....cause whities are doing it! That's why a buddy of mine, when he heard this argument said, "Well, Don't call me black then, call me African American!"

But there is a greater message here...If a large number of community members don't want the word used or it somehow makes them feel uncomfortable, why use it??? Can we all get along???

 

Okay, so now the word black can't be used to relate to anything negative? Someone else posted how black is used in positive ways too, i.e. a black belt in martial arts is the highest level, formal wear is "black tie", being "in the black" means there's profit, there's more of them. It's just amazing that there are people who agree with this thinking. But yes, like Gracie in MD said to those who are African American, is this usage of the word "black" offensive in any way? And by the way, I don't understand why anyone would choose angel food cake over devils food cake!!! YUM!

[beansprouts]

duplicate post deleted

[beansprouts]

For years "Whities" have been associating "Black" with something/anything "bad" or "scary". This has been passed on from the slave days and has become a lingo and accepted language to use in the general public. The word "Black" has been used in Business, social and day to day conversation in a degrading way. Take this for an example:

- Black Market?

- Black Hole

- Black Cloud?

- "...the difference is black and white". In this context, white being good and black being bad.

The rejection and discontent from the African American community comes because there are too many things, events etc that are marked black to describe bad. And we all know why this is....cause whities are doing it! That's why a buddy of mine, when he heard this argument said, "Well, Don't call me black then, call me African American!"

But there is a greater message here...If a large number of community members don't want the word used or it somehow makes them feel uncomfortable, why use it??? Can we all get along???

 

 

 

I disagree about these origins. Since ancient times darkness has been associated with evil, and corruption. In science black simply means "an absence of light". "Black market" is underground, unseen, and has nothing to do with any person's ethnic origin. The phrase, "The difference is black and white" simply shows the greatest possible contrast between two extremes and does not make a judgment about either one.

[fivetails]

The blogger examples sound just as silly.....

 

Black hole - covered already (well, a black hole - no light!)

 

Black market - far as I ever understood this one, it's called such because it's quiet, secret, shhhhh...think darkness, undercover, night time.... (though of course black market business isn't always conducted at night LOL ..but it's the image)

 

Black cloud - as in gloom? depression? yeah....gloomy black/grey storm clouds hovering over a person!

 

difference is black and white - opposites! like "the difference is night and day"

 

Why do people seem to sometimes look for offense where it isn't? :confused:

 

 

There *are* times when skin colours/races/etc *are* used in a derogatory manner --- and of course that ought to be addressed. This stuff ain't it, IMO. :)

[starlashine]

I disagree about these origins. Since ancient times darkness has been associated with evil, and corruption. In science black simply means "an absence of light". "Black market" is underground, unseen, and has nothing to do with any person's ethnic origin. The phrase, "The difference is black and white" simply shows the greatest possible contrast between two extremes and does not make a judgment about either one.

 

I could say this a different way, but it is how I feel about this and well put, so why bother?;) Me tired today. I think the whole thing is ridiculous. I don't understand why someone would take offense to "black hole" being used "correctly" - it's been a common analogy for years, despite how "technically" accurate it is. Oh yeah, he took offense because he wanted attention. Typical politician.

[beansprouts]

I could say this a different way, but it is how I feel about this and well put, so why bother?;) Me tired today. I think the whole thing is ridiculous. I don't understand why someone would take offense to "black hole" being used "correctly" - it's been a common analogy for years, despite how "technically" accurate it is. Oh yeah, he took offense because he wanted attention. Typical politician.

 

 

But if he is getting attention for being an idiot, how does that benefit his career??

[Tracey in TX]

UGH! The Dallas city council is filled with half-wits. Maybe it's a job prerequisite?

fwiw, I thought that angle food cake and devil's food cake were served at a scientific forum.:tongue_smilie:

[RoughCollie]

Besides which, I have never seen a black person -- they have all been various shades of brown.

 

I had the hardest time when my kids were young because they could not understand how our dear friends could be called "black" when they were obviously not that color at all.

[Michelle T]

maybe we just shouldn't be able to use the word "black" for anything, including the color. Just retire it from our language. How does "black hole", have anything to do with black people? This guy just wants to get his name in the news, but he made himself look stupid doing it.

 

The term "jewing down" is blatantly prejudiced, as it specifically targets Jews as cheap, miserly people who are always pushing for bargains. How that could be compared with black hole is beyond me.

Michelle T

[*anj*]

 

Note to Hive Mind, especially those who are African-American (or who have African-American family members):

~do we who are white need to be more racially sensitive in cases like the OP's Fox News story and the 'niggardly' situation?

 

 

It's really unfortunate that despite his high profile position in Dallas County, Mr. Price is apparently quite ignorant of basic scientific terms and cake recipes.

That's just ridiculous.

 

I understand the etymology of the word "niggardly" and that it is not a slur. I also understand the etymology of the "n-word" and the reason that it is a slur. Logically there is no good reason to avoid the word "niggardly." But-but-but...

It sounds like the other word.

Poor spellers may think it looks like the other word.

It's a word with a negative connotation that some would say also describes people who are called "the n-word."

 

So why use it?

It is an arcane word that could easily be substituted with another. Our language is fluid, constantly evolving. Words fall out of usage or change in meaning all the time. Words like "gay", "queer", and "intercourse" have lost their original meanings and now mean something else. When was the last time you heard someone say "We had such a gay time at the picnic yesterday!" or "I need to have a serious intercourse with you now"? And we no longer refer to bundles of sticks as "faggots" either.

 

So yes, I think that word can be dropped. It's not an important or common word, and the misinterpretation factor is considerable.

 

~do those of us who "don't get it" not get it because we don't have to think about race all the time? I'd really like to have a little more insight here.

 

Note to OP: I hope I didn't hijack your thread! Thanks for posting - I find use of language a fascinating subject.

 

I don't know that I think about race all the time.

I think that maybe it's hard to understand this if it's never been part of your reality. But I even hesitate to say that because I know that some people do manage to "get it."

 

Many years ago, before we all had the Internet there was an article that was circulated in hard copy. It talked about how people tend to take their advantages for granted because they've never actually dealt with discrimination. It had examples kind of like this:

 

"Imagine you need to rent an apartment.

You call the contact person on the phone and they tell you that the apartment is still available.

You make an appointment to see it.

You arrive and see the look of disappointment cross the landlord's face as he tells you the apartment is no longer available.

You wonder why this always happens."

 

That kind of thing, you know?

I'd really like to find that again because at the time I thought it was great. I wonder if now I'd think the same or if I'd be like this :ack2:.

[GraceinMD]

But-but-but...

It sounds like the other word.

Poor spellers may think it looks like the other word.

It's a word with a negative connotation that some would say also describes people who are called "the n-word."

 

So why use it?

It is an arcane word that could easily be substituted with another. Our language is fluid, constantly evolving. Words fall out of usage or change in meaning all the time.

 

 

*anj*, thanks for posting. The bold sentence above may have been the PERFECT phrase to help me understand. My dh is a linguist, and is always saying just what you said - that language is dynamic, not static. Now, I argue with him about this (because it :auto: me CRAZY when he says things like, "...SoandSo and me...." when he means, "...and I...." - and this is especially true when we pray - I mean, you shouldn't correct someone's grammar when you're PRAYING, right? But it's VERY distracting to me!), but I do see the point. I hate that we've lost certain words, but, you're absolutely correct that we don't HAVE to use the word niggardly. I guess I could file it under, "Phrases that might offend," or, better yet, under, "Think about other people first," but ... it still bugs me.

 

I guess I don't think I *see* race, and don't *hear* the words that are jarring, but it's quite possible (even likely, given our society, and where I was raised) that I DO make judgements based on appearance. That's a real benefit to cyber-relationships, yes? But that's where our WORDS and our VOCABULARY *do* matter - and (flipping back to the other side), I hate to lose words.

 

That said (flipping again), I hate that some are so quick to take offense. If I used the word 'niggardly' in a post, I would HOPE that people wouldn't think, "What a racist pig," but would think, "I'll bet she has NO idea that that was jarring - because she doesn't SEEM like a bomb thrower."

 

Losing train of thought. Must go to bed. Thanks again, *anj*!

[Dawn E]

So why use it?

It is an arcane word that could easily be substituted with another. Our language is fluid, constantly evolving. Words fall out of usage or change in meaning all the time. Words like "gay", "queer", and "intercourse" have lost their original meanings and now mean something else. When was the last time you heard someone say "We had such a gay time at the picnic yesterday!" or "I need to have a serious intercourse with you now"? And we no longer refer to bundles of sticks as "faggots" either.

 

 

So yes, I think that word can be dropped. It's not an important or common word, and the misinterpretation factor is considerable.

 

 

:iagree: Well said, Anj. I'm rather surprised anyone would choose to use that word despite its meaning or connotation. The news story is not all that shocking to me. These type of meetings are often so emotional that they tend to disintegrate into the absurd.

[3littlekeets]

This is just so sad! An elected official shouldn't be this stupid.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,380143,00.html

 

When you visit the local Dallas/Fort Worth news station's website, there is a place to vote if you think it's racist or not and when I voted there were actually a little over 2% that agreed that it was. What??? :confused:

 

This guy needs to go back to high school science class and perhaps an English class to understand what an analogy is. Or is it a metaphor? I didn't major in English and I only have emerging 3rd graders so we haven't gotten that far yet. :tongue_smilie:

 

Here's the actual news story from the local tv interview:

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/pollP44Question

 

 

This discussion has been had in diversity meetings and ivy towers for years-- it is nothing new. Though for some of us, it may seem absurd, for others, it may be hurtful. I learned about this in a Comm Theory or Interpersonal Comm text in the early 90s.

 

http://www.stanford.edu/group/CBPA/BAQ.html (see Summer, 2005 newsletter)

 

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:uNaRPd9X0fIJ:www.unh.edu/residential-life/diversity/aw_article14.pdf+blacklisted+blackballed+black+magic+racism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

http://www.yorku.ca/ycom/style/sg35.html

 

 

Similarly, I know what the "definition" of retarded is, but when people refer to computers that don't turn on, friends who act up, or policies that are offensive as "retarded," they clearly mean "stupid, worthless, and idiotic," and their words are frequently accompanied by movements that refer to people with mental retardation. When they say "I didn't mean to be offensive -- well, it is! In this case, the word is used specifically as a pejorative deriving from people's understandings of MR.

 

In this case with race, the words may seem innocuous independently, but I do seem merit in the idea that it is the large pattern of negativity that is problematic, not just one word, kwim?

 

Lame is another case where many of us see some make a big deal out of nothing, after reading this, though, I get it a bit more

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/blogs/edgecentric/metaphors_for_bad/000792.html

 

I guess what I am saying is, like people before, if the goal of language is to help us impart our thoughts and ideas to others, why not choose those words that are non-offensive, if possible? We may not always know what offends others, and language does change, but as it changes, why can't we try to adapt?

 

Just my .02?

[Mom to Aly]

Actually, a black hole is often described as "nature's ultimate fury". I took many courses in African American Lit in college, and in one of them we did a whole thing about neg connotations connected with "black" (same thing in French, by the way, with feminine vs. masculine--feminine gets a ton of bad stuff, from death on). From black magic, black for mourning, black for witches, Black Monday, Black Wednesday, Black Friday, Black Death, black market, shall I go on? And there are also many instances where black shows bad and white shows good. How often do we see that in books and movies, even as recent as Harry Potter?

 

Many writers have tried to protest against that as well, including Maya Angelou, Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston, Alice Walker & Ralph Ellison. It is a much bigger thing than you would think, and this man is not the first to have brought it up, by any means.

[Dawn E]

This discussion has been had in diversity meetings and ivy towers for years-- it is nothing new. Though for some of us, it may seem absurd, for others, it may be hurtful.

 

Your post was very enlightening and also very well said. I apologize if I seemed to make light of the offense. I am white, but also grew up in MS. In fact, I currently live in the MS Delta. Race issues are as tangible here as the thick humidity. We cannot overlook that deep wounds have been suffered and wounded ears hear differently. I don't think we could ever be careful enough to censor our language as to never offend anyone; however, I think it is very important to try to speak with care. Also, humility in addressing these offenses is also important. Though it may be absurd to me, I have to be willing to think outside of my box. Many times the issue is respect, or lack thereof.

[Kris]

Besides which, I have never seen a black person -- they have all been various shades of brown.

 

I had the hardest time when my kids were young because they could not understand how our dear friends could be called "black" when they were obviously not that color at all.

 

I had to answer exactly the same questions.

[beansprouts]

Besides which, I have never seen a black person -- they have all been various shades of brown.

 

I had the hardest time when my kids were young because they could not understand how our dear friends could be called "black" when they were obviously not that color at all.

 

This bugs me also. It is occasionally necessary to identify a person by their physical appearance. But for the most part, I think such groupings only lead to division among people.

[Karen sn]

Besides which, I have never seen a black person -- they have all been various shades of brown.

 

I had the hardest time when my kids were young because they could not understand how our dear friends could be called "black" when they were obviously not that color at all.

 

Dark chocholate is way better than white!

 

I agree with the dog here (rough collie - no offense in dog comment, just trying to be light hearted) - And my skin is clearly not the color of angel food cake. Although - I have seen people whose skin is as dark as midnight and those who are as white as typing paper.

 

And - as far a "Jewing" someone down. A few times people have used that word around me. I like to think I should be more frugal, get what I pay for and feel good about the purchase. I have learned to not let it offend me in the least. Even though I only have a little Jewish blood - my boyfriend likes to say that his Jewish girlfriend this and that proud thing about how I saved us money.

 

Maybe Jewing someone down means not letting anyone rip you off. Since when is that bad?

 

Although the way someone used it a few weeks ago did bother me - "You don't have to be Jew salesman" when describing how easy it was for to sell Mona-vie.

 

And when someone is ill or scared, "white as a ghost." Actually - ghosts aren't white. The ones I have seen appear like their flesh incantations or they are a grey blur - although I have seen a red and a blue blur before - they were very evil.

 

And if it offends anyone - well you can just call me the sheep with the matted hair.

[Karen sn]

maybe we just shouldn't be able to use the word "black" for anything, including the color. Just retire it from our language. How does "black hole", have anything to do with black people? This guy just wants to get his name in the news, but he made himself look stupid doing it.

 

The term "jewing down" is blatantly prejudiced, as it specifically targets Jews as cheap, miserly people who are always pushing for bargains. How that could be compared with black hole is beyond me.

Michelle T

 

WHAT is wrong with bargaining? I tell ya - when I have a yard sale, I totally love the bargainers! I mean - whatever I don't sell is going to be given away to the thrift store and I have to cart it there myself, so I love to haggle on a price - I will ALWAYS go down - and be glad I got rid of some junk!

 

Think about how many times people say they want a Jewish lawyer!

 

What about the comment "horse's ass" - supposed to be an idiot. But my horse had a really cute butt. Oh, here come the tears...........

[Karen sn]

This discussion has been had in diversity meetings and ivy towers for years-- it is nothing new. Though for some of us, it may seem absurd, for others, it may be hurtful. I learned about this in a Comm Theory or Interpersonal Comm text in the early 90s.

 

http://www.stanford.edu/group/CBPA/BAQ.html (see Summer, 2005 newsletter)

 

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:uNaRPd9X0fIJ:www.unh.edu/residential-life/diversity/aw_article14.pdf+blacklisted+blackballed+black+magic+racism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

http://www.yorku.ca/ycom/style/sg35.html

 

 

Similarly, I know what the "definition" of retarded is, but when people refer to computers that don't turn on, friends who act up, or policies that are offensive as "retarded," they clearly mean "stupid, worthless, and idiotic," and their words are frequently accompanied by movements that refer to people with mental retardation. When they say "I didn't mean to be offensive -- well, it is! In this case, the word is used specifically as a pejorative deriving from people's understandings of MR.

 

In this case with race, the words may seem innocuous independently, but I do seem merit in the idea that it is the large pattern of negativity that is problematic, not just one word, kwim?

 

Lame is another case where many of us see some make a big deal out of nothing, after reading this, though, I get it a bit more

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/blogs/edgecentric/metaphors_for_bad/000792.html

 

I guess what I am saying is, like people before, if the goal of language is to help us impart our thoughts and ideas to others, why not choose those words that are non-offensive, if possible? We may not always know what offends others, and language does change, but as it changes, why can't we try to adapt?

 

Just my .02?

 

Well. I like that people are reclaiming words. (The "Lame is sexy" button wearer.)

 

I like the word witch. Means healer. You can't offend me when you inadvertantly call me healer.

 

When my dd found out that b*tch really means female dog (or female dog whose given birth - whatever) she said, "Oh. Well, I am female and I like dogs. You can call me b*tch."

 

I still laugh at her simplistic view and innocent way of viewing it. It definately allows her to move freely under the imposing words of others.