Jennifer3141 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 We're about to sign up for the dog training 4-H group and one of the requirements is the kids' social security numbers. What do they use those for? I NEVER give out my kids' real numbers anywhere but I'm having a hard time figuring out what nefarious reason the 4-H would have. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndie Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I have seen lots of forms that ask for the kids ss#. I just leave it blank and if questioned, tell them I am not comfy giving out that information. Unless it's a govt form, no one needs to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 I have seen lots of forms that ask for the kids ss#. I just leave it blank and if questioned, tell them I am not comfy giving out that information. Unless it's a govt form, no one needs to know. That's what I don't get. Our local leader is adamant about getting them. So I'm going to give her false ones. But I don't get why they think they need them in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen in NJ Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I have seen lots of forms that ask for the kids ss#. I just leave it blank and if questioned, tell them I am not comfy giving out that information. Unless it's a govt form, no one needs to know. :iagree: I am not sure why the government is letting companies and organizations request them. I thought it was illegal to use SS# for anthing other then SS and taxes. Any lawyers out there know if this is true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Isn't that maddening. I think you're right to give a different one. I kept my kids out of the loop for a loooong time but now that they are driving and on their own health ins. college etc........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I have seen lots of forms that ask for the kids ss#. I just leave it blank and if questioned, tell them I am not comfy giving out that information. Unless it's a govt form, no one needs to know. :iagree: We've been in 4-H for 5 years. Every year you have to fill out the form that asks for their SSN. Every year I leave it blank and every year there is no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 :iagree: I am not sure why the government is letting companies and organizations request them. I thought it was illegal to use SS# for anthing other then SS and taxes. Any lawyers out there know if this is true? I thought so too. Isn't that why health insurance cards no longer have our SS numbers on them??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndie Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 That's what I don't get. Our local leader is adamant about getting them. So I'm going to give her false ones. But I don't get why they think they need them in the first place. Good move on your part. Maybe your leader doesn't realize she shouldn't be worrying so much about it; she might just be misinformed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 How can I protect my Social Security number? You should treat your Social Security number as confidential information and avoid giving it out unnecessarily. You should keep your Social Security card in a safe place with your other important papers. Do not carry it with you unless you need to show it to an employer or service provider. We do several things to protect your number from misuse. For example, we require and carefully inspect proof of identity from people who apply to replace lost or stolen Social Security cards, or for corrected cards. One reason we do this is to prevent people from fraudulently obtaining Social Security numbers to establish false identities. We maintain the privacy of Social Security records unless: The law requires us to disclose information to another government agency; or Your information is needed to conduct Social Security or other government health or welfare program business. You should be very careful about sharing your number and card to protect against misuse of your number. Giving your number is voluntary even when you are asked for the number directly. If requested, you should ask: Why your number is needed; How your number will be used; What happens if you refuse; and What law requires you to give your number. The answers to these questions can help you decide if you want to give your Social Security number. The decision is yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 They don't need it. Keep saying no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 :iagree: We've been in 4-H for 5 years. Every year you have to fill out the form that asks for their SSN. Every year I leave it blank and every year there is no problem. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
---- Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_midori Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 We went through this a number of years ago--we were told that they needed it for the kids' auctions when they sold calves. Um, no, it's not wages and you don't get to have it. I finally called the state extension office and asked them to speak to our local office. It IS income, however, and whoever gives you income is required to get your SSN (or EIN) in order to provide information on that income to the IRS. This is usually done on a W9. I would find out if that is why they are asking and, if so, just tell them that IF your child sells something and IF a SSN is needed at that time you would be happy to fill out the (government required) w9 information, including SSN. Not being interested in giving out your SSN is a very good reason to get a Federal EIN, btw! Website regarding IRS stance on 4h earnings: http://www.national4-hheadquarters.gov/library/4-H_IRS_Livestock_FAQs.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 We're about to sign up for the dog training 4-H group and one of the requirements is the kids' social security numbers. What do they use those for? I NEVER give out my kids' real numbers anywhere but I'm having a hard time figuring out what nefarious reason the 4-H would have. :confused: If your kids win prize money, the county needs social security numbers to issue checks, and to prepare Form 1099 if the prizes awarded within a calendar year exceed $600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 I have seen lots of forms that ask for the kids ss#. I just leave it blank and if questioned, tell them I am not comfy giving out that information. Unless it's a govt form, no one needs to know. The agency that runs 4-H clubs is the government. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 :iagree: I am not sure why the government is letting companies and organizations request them. I thought it was illegal to use SS# for anthing other then SS and taxes. Any lawyers out there know if this is true? It is not illegal. It was just promised to the American people by a politician (FDR) that it would NEVER happen. We know how the promises of politicians hold up. So, everyone and his brother demands it today. I'm really irked by the online forms that we have to fill out for a few things that simply DO NOT let you skip on to the next thing. I hate online forms anyway, because I edit and change everything. I have never given out my kids' numbers yet and I don't plan to start now (unless I gave it for PSAT...can't remember...will have to look). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 If your kids win prize money, the county needs social security numbers to issue checks, and to prepare Form 1099 if the prizes awarded within a calendar year exceed $600. Then they should wait until this unlikely event occurs, and get the numbers of the winners at that time, not everyone's number in advance. Data mining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 It IS income, however, and whoever gives you income is required to get your SSN (or EIN) in order to provide information on that income to the IRS. This is usually done on a W9. I would find out if that is why they are asking and, if so, just tell them that IF your child sells something and IF a SSN is needed at that time you would be happy to fill out the (government required) w9 information, including SSN. Not being interested in giving out your SSN is a very good reason to get a Federal EIN, btw! Website regarding IRS stance on 4h earnings: http://www.national4-hheadquarters.gov/library/4-H_IRS_Livestock_FAQs.pdf Everything is "income". Our tax prof used to say, "If you find a $20 dollar bill on the street, it's INCOME!" With that argument, every garage sale holder and craigslist seller would be getting the SSN. It isn't income to you until you have won something or sold something. They should get it then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise in Florida Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 4H is a government program. It is funded through the state university. Here that is University of Florida. They need race/ethnic information for funding and fairness issues. Each year the agents must compare the ethnic/racial percentages of the kids enrolled in 4H with the percentages of the county. They probably collect the SSNs the same way any agency does. However I agree with the previous posters that none of the agents I have met have insisted on the SSN. Leave it blank, do not put in a false number. Since that number might belong to someone it would be a form of identity fraud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted April 29, 2012 Author Share Posted April 29, 2012 Well, my group required something in the space for the last 4 digits. So let me introduce you to my kids 1-2-3-4 and 5-6-7-8. :lol: My kids are cloverbuds. We can't win prizes at 4H for a few years and if the problem should come up later in life, I'll worry about it then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 If your kids win prize money, the county needs social security numbers to issue checks, and to prepare Form 1099 if the prizes awarded within a calendar year exceed $600. This; their premium money, prizes, auction funds, etc. are all income. That's usually not a big deal, since it's not much and 4-H members are young, but I'm sure they collect them just to be more efficient. I doubt they want to track anyone down later. Just let them know that you will provide it if needed. I didn't give 4-H my dcs' numbers (I don't keep it with me or memorize it, specifically so that I can honestly say I don't know it when asked.) and it wasn't an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Please do not give out false SS numbers. That is considered fraud, even under these circumstances. The organization may have to report income and, if they report it under someone else's number, then they and you can be in trouble with the IRS. If you don't want to give them out, then just leave it blank. The false numbers belong to someone else and to use someone else's numbers is fraudulent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted April 29, 2012 Author Share Posted April 29, 2012 Please do not give out false SS numbers. That is considered fraud, even under these circumstances. The organization may have to report income and, if they report it under someone else's number, then they and you can be in trouble with the IRS. If you don't want to give them out, then just leave it blank. The false numbers belong to someone else and to use someone else's numbers is fraudulent. Again, they wouldn't accept blank so false it is. I'm NOT giving them out. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKidAcademy Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Then make them blatantly false: 123-45-6789 and 987-65-4321. Still fraud, but you will be making a point. Although I don't understand the "won't accept blank" thing - she can't force you to put pen to paper. Is she refusing to enroll your children unless you fill in that blank? I'd be calling the higher ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Then make them blatantly false: 123-45-6789 and 987-65-4321. Still fraud, but you will be making a point. Although I don't understand the "won't accept blank" thing - she can't force you to put pen to paper. Is she refusing to enroll your children unless you fill in that blank? I'd be calling the higher ups. A lot of forms are online today. Yes, those forms can refuse to let you proceed if you do not fill in all the blanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Then make them blatantly false: 123-45-6789 and 987-65-4321. Still fraud, but you will be making a point. Although I don't understand the "won't accept blank" thing - she can't force you to put pen to paper. Is she refusing to enroll your children unless you fill in that blank? I'd be calling the higher ups. :iagree: A university I worked for in the nineties used to require your SSN to set up a computer account. Some, rightfully, refused to provide their SSN. The university was *required* to provide these users with a dummy ID number in place of their SSN for the purpose of setting up their computer account. Eventually, they created a system that did not require the SSN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted April 29, 2012 Author Share Posted April 29, 2012 Then make them blatantly false: 123-45-6789 and 987-65-4321. Still fraud, but you will be making a point. Although I don't understand the "won't accept blank" thing - she can't force you to put pen to paper. Is she refusing to enroll your children unless you fill in that blank? I'd be calling the higher ups. Wow. You seriously need to read before you post sometimes. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Again, they wouldn't accept blank so false it is. I'm NOT giving them out. Period. Will it let you put in all 9's? That's what I do on forms like that, so that they know I am not giving a real number in a blank. Our 4H forms are still paper luckily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) Then they should wait until this unlikely event occurs, and get the numbers of the winners at that time, not everyone's number in advance. Data mining. I agree, and that's what I did. I didn't give out my kids' numbers until they won prize money; no checks can be cut in our county without the SS #s. I was explaining what the numbers are used for, not necessarily advocating giving them out before they're needed. Edited April 29, 2012 by LizzyBee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKidAcademy Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) Wow. You seriously need to read before you post sometimes. :lol: I apologize. I thought I had. Our 4-H is so low tech that enrolling online never even occurred to me. "Sometimes"? What else have I misread? I didn't realize I'd made a habit of it. Edited April 29, 2012 by TammyH spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 SO flipping annoying. My ds has been applying for jobs online, and one place won't let you proceed without putting in the SSN first. I have let ds know that they only need his SSN AFTER he is hired, for tax purposes. No need at all to require it to accept an employment application. Yeah. How DARE employers demand an SSN for someone who isn't even an employee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsBear Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 If your kids win prize money, the county needs social security numbers to issue checks, and to prepare Form 1099 if the prizes awarded within a calendar year exceed $600. Those forms can be filled out before a check is cut and can even be done after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 That's what I don't get. Our local leader is adamant about getting them. So I'm going to give her false ones. But I don't get why they think they need them in the first place. I am pretty sure legally you are not required to give it out unless for the government or employment. I would put a line through it and say "no." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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