Conversation with a Princeton science professor this morning...

[shanvan]

I just had a long conversation at the ice rink with a professor from Princeton University. She has multiple connections in admissions at several universities. She confirmed for me that colleges and universities are now looking for students who have committed a significant amount of time to 1 or 2 activities. They are no longer impressed with a long string of AP test achievements and a long list of extracurriculars. They want to see that the student worked long and hard and persevered to take a particular interest to the highest level possible for the child, whether it be music, science, or whatever interest. Apparently colleges are having a huge crisis with students who either cannot handle time management, or try to do it all and then crash and burn and either have a mental health crisis or drop out completely. Admissions officers are thinking that a student who shows he or she knew how to choose where to focus will be more likely to succeed.

 

She also feels that the whole 4H will hurt your transcript idea is not true, especially if 4H has given your child many opportunities to shine in areas of leadership, public speaking, marketing, event planning, research, etc. She said that would actually give kids an advantage over the typical high school student who just does not communicate well (according to admissions officers).

 

This professor has had to think over and research a lot of these issues because her daughter takes a lot of time off from school to pursue figure skating. Now, I have no direct experience with admissions officers, so I cannot say that everything she told me is true, but I thought I'd share what I learned. It reinforces everything I've been reading lately.

 

ETA: She also said that APs in science areas or foreign languages are more impressive to colleges than the more typical APs and they are more likely to actually award credit based on them.

Edited March 13, 2012 by shanvan

[FaithManor]

Thanks for sharing. It is always good to hear a variety of viewpoints and then try to make some sort of cohesive whole of all of it, choose a path, and hope! :D

 

We have never heard of trouble with 4-H in terms of the midwestern schools. It's pretty highly respected out this way and I would assume that this is because the midwestern 4-H clubs tend to be very active with a huge array of specializations that the kids can involved with and the colleges have been amply exposed to it. However, we had heard that it was looked down upon by the east and west coast schools.

 

Our kids are specializing in the sciences and 4-H is one avenue of that though it isn't likely to be emphasized much on the transcript since they'll have individual accomplishments through 4-H that stand for themselves such as our competitive rocketry team that is headed for national finals. Our team is financially sponsored through 4-H, but the competition is not a 4-H competition. There will many things like this though if we find that a particular east coast school is not adverse to 4-H, we would be likely to then mention it in the extra-curriculars section of the application.

 

Some of the schools ds is looking at are taking a middle ground on the AP exams. They'd like to see maybe 2-4 to show due diligence and higher level learning, but they are also seeing the same thing - burned out high schoolers entering college already very, very weary and having spread themselves so thin, they can't think straight. Hopefully, admissions' departments will remain less extreme which will make it easier for ds to continue his science pursuits.

 

Again, thanks for the post.

Faith

[Kathy in Richmond]

I just had a long conversation at the ice rink with a professor from Princeton University. She has multiple connections in admissions at several universities. She confirmed for me that colleges and universities are now looking for students who have committed a significant amount of time to 1 or 2 activities. They are no longer impressed with a long string of AP test achievements and a long list of extracurriculars. They want to see that the student worked long and hard and persevered to take a particular interest to the highest level possible for the child, whether it be music, science, or whatever interest. Apparently colleges are having a huge crisis with students who either cannot handle time management, or try to do it all and then crash and burn and either have a mental health crisis or drop out completely. Admissions officers are thinking that a student who shows he or she knew how to choose where to focus will be more likely to succeed.

 

She also feels that the whole 4H will hurt your transcript idea is not true, especially if 4H has given your child many opportunities to shine in areas of leadership, public speaking, marketing, event planning, research, etc. She said that would actually give kids an advantage over the typical high school student who just does not communicate well (according to admissions officers).

 

This professor has had to think over and research a lot of these issues because her daughter takes a lot of time off from school to pursue figure skating. Now, I have no direct experience with admissions officers, so I cannot say that everything she told me is true, but I thought I'd share what I learned. It reinforces everything I've been reading lately.

 

ETA: She also said that APs in science areas or foreign languages are more impressive to colleges than the more typical APs and they are more likely to actually award credit based on them.

 

Thanks for sharing! I think that what the professor advised is pretty much on the money from our experiences. My dd was accepted to Princeton in 2010, and she did have a couple of areas of passionate pursuit in her high school years.

 

Did this professor happen to address homeschoolers in particular, though? All of the admissions officers I spoke with when my kids were applying to college advised me that for homeschoolers, test scores (including AP and SAT II) and outside evaluations & grades counted a lot more heavily than they did for schooled applicants. We are similar in the eyes of the admissions office to an unknown school; they cannot compare our kids to students they've admitted in the past from the same high school. Most of them expressed some regret that they have to place more emphasis on our test scores, but they told me that they didn't have a good alternative since they can't put much stock in mommy grades.

 

Just the same, I think that a homeschooler need not take every AP and SAT II exam out there. Hmmm, interesting...we did very much emphasize the math, science, and foreign language tests. My son didn't do any English or history APs, and it didn't hurt him in the admissions process. He had no interest in those APs & didn't see the point in completing them only for the purpose of college admissions. The time he would have needed to devote to a course like APUSH would have eaten into his schedule and taken away from his computer science and math pursuits. And it was the depth of his comp sci and math, both in and out of school, that probably accounted for his application successes.

 

As for 4H, my daughter was a member throughout high school, and on a shooting sports team no less.;) She was adamant about representing herself honestly on her college applications, so the 4H was there. She even used a 4H camp experience as a large part of her common app essay. She didn't get a sense from her various college interviews that the colleges (East, West, and Central US) look down upon 4H; instead they seemed honestly interested in her 4H involvement & leadership....(and she and a friend just received administrative permission to start up the first shooting sports club at her university!)

Edited March 13, 2012 by Kathy in Richmond

[Create Your Ritual]

Just listening in. Thanks for sharing that!

[Jane in NC]

The only place where I have heard 4-H may be a negative is here on these boards. Did I miss something?

 

For my son, 4-H was a way of indicating achievement at the state level. He had a list of accomplishments and also won a 4-H college scholarship.

 

During one of his scholarship interviews when doing the college circuit senior year, he encourntered a Russian prof who was not familiar with the organization and asked what it was. Another professor on the panel, someone who had grown up in the Midwest, exuberantly answered the question since he had been a 4-Her in his youth!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The only place where I have heard 4-H may be a negative is here on these boards. Did I miss something?

 

For my son, 4-H was a way of indicating achievement at the state level. He had a list of accomplishments and also won a 4-H college scholarship.

 

During one of his scholarship interviews when doing the college circuit senior year, he encourntered a Russian prof who was not familiar with the organization and asked what it was. Another professor on the panel, someone who had grown up in the Midwest, exuberantly answered the question since he had been a 4-Her in his youth!

 

There was an article?/study? about a year ago that suggested that activities like JROTC or 4H were not as positively viewed as other extra curricular activities. Some commentators spun this as a bias against conservative or more rural type activities.

 

I found this Time interview with the author of the study.

 

I don't know if the study controlled for participation levels. My impression is that colleges are more influenced by depth of involvement and experience than by being a member of a lot of different organizations, but not that committed to any.

[annabanana1992]

How do you think sports commitment is perceived? My son is a swimmer who spends 3-6 hours per day at the pool. He couldn't possibly fit in a bunch of activities so this is encouraging news, but on the other hand it may not carry the weight of 4-H which provides a variety of experiences within a single context....

 

thoughts?

[shanvan]

Did this professor happen to address homeschoolers in particular, though? All of the admissions officers I spoke with when my kids were applying to college advised me that for homeschoolers, test scores (including AP and SAT II) and outside evaluations & grades counted a lot more heavily than they did for schooled applicants. We are similar in the eyes of the admissions office to an unknown school; they cannot compare our kids to students they've admitted in the past from the same high school. Most of them expressed some regret that they have to place more emphasis on our test scores, but they told me that they didn't have a good alternative since they can't put much stock in mommy grades.

 

 

 

When I told her we would do some AP tests just to verify that Ds's grades are earned (as opposed to being given by mommy) she admitted that as homeschoolers it probably is important to do even if the college isn't going to award credit. She was speaking in general terms, not from a homeschooling stand point.

[shanvan]

How do you think sports commitment is perceived? My son is a swimmer who spends 3-6 hours per day at the pool. He couldn't possibly fit in a bunch of activities so this is encouraging news, but on the other hand it may not carry the weight of 4-H which provides a variety of experiences within a single context....

 

thoughts?

 

From her experiences, colleges are more interested in a student who has pursued individual sports than team sports. Of course, I am sure that some students involved in team sports do stand out. In general the thinking seems to be that a child who pursues an individual sport cannot rely on anyone else to get them to a certain level of achievement. They have only themselves to depend on (or blame) for how successful they are and cannot rely on help from the team as they work through setbacks. And, since most schools don't offer many individual sports, students who pursue them tend to be forced to figure out how to manage time so as to allow them to continue in their chosen sport (same applies to other areas of extracurricular involvement). She has had to do a lot of defending her Dd's figure skating to the school b/c her Dd was not being given the same leeway afforded to the students who are participating in school related team sports. They would not count the skating as phys ed!

[Laura in CA]

ETA: She also said that APs in science areas or foreign languages are more impressive to colleges than the more typical APs and they are more likely to actually award credit based on them.

 

I don't know about the 'impressive' part, but the latter part is true of, for example, Stanford, which gives credit only for math, computer science, science (but not bio or enviro), and (some) foreign language AP exams.

 

Like Kathy's son, my son is a math/CS kid, but I'm having him take AP Lang next year because he likes to read and argue and because it'll be good for him. :D We'll see how he does ... :001_smile:

[Nissi]

Hmm...ds. wants to be a doctor so I figured it would be good for him to do AP humanities in high school and do science in college with labs. He has done AP courses in Human Geo, US Govt.& Politics, European History, Macroeconomics, Psychology, Literature, and Language. He is also doing AP Statistics and Calculus BC. So he'll have more in Humanities, Math, and English. For his senior year I was considering AP US History but now I am thinking perhaps AP Physics or Bio. may be better. Any thoughts? Right now we are considering Spanish 3, AP Statistics, and perhaps honors US History. I have no ideas for English. Can he not take English since he already has 4 credits (including one in 8th grade) for English? He is heavily involved in Speech and Debate and I would like him to have a lighter course load in the senior year. Bible courses, Philosophy, Art History, Doctor shadowing, etc. but would not like this to be at the expense of science courses. Any suggestions for the senior year courses?

[Kareni]

I have no ideas for English. Can he not take English since he already has 4 credits (including one in 8th grade) for English? He is heavily involved in Speech and Debate and I would like him to have a lighter course load in the senior year.

 

I'd be leery of skipping English senior year even if he does have four credits. (My daughter ended up with five credits of English from 9th through 12th grades.)

 

Are you considering his Speech and Debate activities as extra curricular activities? If so, you might consider having him do a formal Speech class as an English class. Hewitt homeschooling has a semester long Lightning Literature Speech course that examines famous speeches through history. It's a half credit course, and I believe it's one of their lighter LL programs.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Laura Corin]

I just had a long conversation at the ice rink with a professor from Princeton University. She has multiple connections in admissions at several universities. She confirmed for me that colleges and universities are now looking for students who have committed a significant amount of time to 1 or 2 activities. They are no longer impressed with a long string of AP test achievements and a long list of extracurriculars. They want to see that the student worked long and hard and persevered to take a particular interest to the highest level possible for the child, whether it be music, science, or whatever interest.

 

They want passion for the particular subject that the child wants to study.

 

Laura

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This grew quite long.

 

I’m not in a position to say that I’ve been there, done that with my own kids. However, I have been in a position to watch a lot of folks apply to Navy. I think that you need to put the comments about AP into context.

 

First, I do totally agree with the comment that a long string of extra curriculars is not that impressive. Especially when you talk to the student and they struggle to describe their activities in this or that club. I realize that service academies are specifically looking for instances in which an applicant took leadership. But I think that it is more and more true that colleges are looking for students who have taken the reins at something and put a lot of themselves out there to make a difference.

 

On the AP classes, at least in my part of Northern Virginia, one reason why a large number of AP classes isn’t a silver bullet is because so many students now have a half dozen AP courses under their belt. Part of this is the inflationary effect of competition to get in to college. Part of it is that many districts are offering AP courses as their only honors option. So if you are hoping for a competitive college, you have to pick between AP US History or a non-honors course. There isn’t an option to pick between honors and AP.

 

(In fact, this was an issue of discussion during the last school board election. One group, that was pushing a “restore honors†campaign had a couple folks elected. The school board recently voted to add in five honors courses in English and history/government – if there is sufficient enrollment. Of course, this means that students and parents will have to choose to enroll in honors when AP is available, not knowing if this will mark them from the point of view of admissions offices as “not taking the most challenging courses availableâ€. There might be a strong trend of “you firstâ€.)

 

So let’s say that you have a pool of applicants.

 

Student A: No AP courses because none were offered. Strong results in his honors classes. SAT M700 V720. Three season track & cross country athlete. Captain of cross country team since sophomore year. Has coached middle school track team for three years. Organized a 5k as a fund raiser for the middle school in order to buy track uniforms. Is currently working on the second year of this 5k and is setting up a non-profit group to keep it going after he goes away to college.

 

Student B: Took three AP courses. Exam results were 1/2/2. SAT M520 V510. Has wrestled since middle school. Went to state championships twice. Works full time during the summer and part time during the school year at a gym.

 

Student C: Took seven AP courses. Exam results were 1/2/2/2/3/3/3 SAT M600 V620. Is a member of several different student clubs, but does not have a leadership position in any of them. Plays football, basketball and spring track.

 

Student D: Took three AP courses. Exam results were 4/5/5 SAT M680 V710. Member of debate team and model united nations. Has been on the leadership of the model united nations organization for two years. Mentors MUN participants from a local middle school who come up to the high school to compete.

 

Student E: Took seven AP courses. Exam results were 3/3/4/4/4/4/5 SAT M720 V750. Competitive cyclist who registers in local and state races as an individual, not part of a school team. Participated in demanding long distance cycling events. Competed in Ironman distance triathlon (one of only six participants in his age group to finish).

 

Student F: Took one AP course, even though several were offered. Exam results 4. SAT M680 V700. Was on the football team as a freshman. Active in church youth group. Is a youth leader for AWANA. Mother has MS and is wheelchair bound.

 

None of these are real people, but they are composites of students I’ve met.

 

So with these as the students in the pool, a homeschooler can decide to strike out and do their own thing, crafting a unique educational experience that reflects their interests. Or they can create a demanding track that parallels the best that a demanding high school might offer. Either one of these could be done fabulously. And either one could be done poorly.

 

IMHO, to say that AP courses don’t impress admissions needs to be taken in the context of many applications from students who have a lot of AP courses (some with strong scores and some without). Sitting in an AP classroom everyday isn’t going to cover over poor AP exam results or mediocre SAT scores. But I’m not convinced that you can just brush off the value of taking AP and doing well at it.

 

And of course, this is all without taking into consideration things like race and ethnic background, family issues, income and educational level of the surrounding community, etc. And it’s not to say that AP is essential or the only route. For homeschoolers might also take SAT subject tests, community college courses (keeping in mind Creekland’s concerns with regard to medical school admissions), or other outside quantifiers like NLE or debate or FLL or a hundred other opportunities to show that the student has strong interests and is able to excel at demanding academics and activities.

 

Like I said at the beginning, this is only my opinion and put out there with only the experience of watching several years of candidates apply for a service academy. I just think that the comment that admissions is not impressed by AP may reflect that they are seeing a lot of them. And that many of the students with AP courses may not have corresponding exam scores or SAT scores.

 

FWIW, I am trying to look at AP exams as serving two possible purposes. They might provide college credit (with a whole string of caveats), but they might also be the outside verification of the level of academics that my kids pursued.

 

What I really, really don't want is for my kid to be the one who has no answer to questions about what he does in his free time, nothing he can point to as a strong interest or passion and describes his after school routine to include getting a snack, taking a nap and watching TV before doing a little homework. (That was a real candidate and his grades and test scores reflected that routine.)

 

[FWIW, reading Crazy U, Debt-Free U, and Acceptance over the last half year has convinced me that the college admissions process is not being played as a low key game by a large segment of the population. Alas, a good portion of these folks live in my county - which is home to something like 3-5 Super Zipcodes. I wish I felt like I could sit back and just let my kids' talents come forth on their own time. If we lived somewhere else, I probably would feel more like I could. But here, it feels hyper competitive. So take the above with a grain of salt as coming out of that context.)

[Teachin'Mine]

Excellent post Sebastian!

 

What I would also consider, is that this is coming from the mom of a dedicated skater. Her daughter is doing an individual sport and devoting a lot of time to that singular pursuit. So this may also be influencing her perception of what's required. IMO overall, I think her advice is good for some students, and for others, a different path can work equally well.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I should add that I think that Students A, D & E are strong competitors. (Which doesn't mean that they are shoe ins or that they will all be accepted everywhere they apply.)

 

Student F is intriguing and his familiy situation makes him worth taking a second look at.

 

Student B seems to have put sports over academics.

 

Student C is middle of the road. Could do well in college. Might also depend on where he stands relative to his high school peers. If his high school profile shows that students rarely make over a 2 on AP exams, or if he self studied for an exam or if he had to take AP courses online or at another high school, then it could demonstrate a lot of initiative. On the other hand, he might be significantly weaker than other candidates from his school and/or area and might not be a motivated college student.

[Nissi]

I'd be leery of skipping English senior year even if he does have four credits. (My daughter ended up with five credits of English from 9th through 12th grades.)

 

Are you considering his Speech and Debate activities as extra curricular activities? If so, you might consider having him do a formal Speech class as an English class. Hewitt homeschooling has a semester long Lightning Literature Speech course that examines famous speeches through history. It's a half credit course, and I believe it's one of their lighter LL programs.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

Kareni, thank you for the suggestion. I am considering speech and debate as extracurriculars. He has taken Omnibus II (all the readings) and Omnibus III (Primary books only) in 8th and 9th grades. AP Lang. in 9th grade (4/5), Rhetoric I and Logic with TPS in 10th grade and is currently in AP Lit. in 11th grade. One possibility is the C.S.Lewis study with Potter's School which is a one semester course. Speech might be a little overkill for him at this point. Journalism might interest him but I don't know who offers this. Would Philosophy count? Also, I am not sure how to title the Omnibus courses on the transcript. Would something like Great Books of the Medieval World for Omnibus II work? I am not quite sure how to title Omnibus III. Thanks for any input.

[MBM]

Apparently, kids who follow their passions in high school do not always get into the top schools. Case in point: I was just reading about a student who took Math 55 somehow through Harvard while he was in high school (!) -- and managed to finish it (!) -- yet he didn't get into Harvard. He also placed very high at USAMO, did not quite make IMO, but did win some other prestigious international math contests. Here was a stellar, passionate math student, who was good all-around, yet he didn't get into Harvard or Princeton. He wound up getting accepted by MIT, which is fantastic, but it wasn't his top choice.

 

Regarding APs, even though my son is math obsessed, he is pretty much expected to sit for the AP test of any class he takes and score high; otherwise, he'll risk looking like a slacker. That's just how it is in our high school. Luckily, the school begins AP classes junior year, with a few exceptions for sophomores, so that helps alleviate the pressure somewhat. They also don't play the game of having kids sit so that the school can brag about the number of kids taking the AP. They prefer that kids be well-prepared and score high.

[shanvan]

Excellent post Sebastian!

 

What I would also consider' date=' is that this is coming from the mom of a dedicated skater. Her daughter is doing an individual sport and devoting a lot of time to that singular pursuit. [b']So this may also be influencing her perception of what's required.[/b] IMO overall, I think her advice is good for some students, and for others, a different path can work equally well.

 

The conversation was a huge generalization of trends in college admissions. I do want to point out, that while this mom is speaking from her own experiences and goals as the mom of a dedicated figure skater, she is also a college professor who has spoken directly with and has personal friends in the admissions office. She did also admit that homeschoolers would be approaching admissions somewhat differently than families whose children attend school--especially regarding APs.

 

I thought her observations were helpful since I've been reading through How to Be a High School Superstar: A Revolutionary Plan to Get into College by Standing Out (Without Burning Out) . Her observations seem to echo what I've been reading and it's good to have some idea of what the trends are in admissions--as long as they don't change in another 4 years!:lol:

I agree that individual circumstances (how competitive admissions are where you live, opportunities available, illnesses in the family, etc.) are going to influence how each family approaches high school. Of course there are different paths. I have a problem with Ds who is interested in everything and just does not want to specialize, so we've got some serious decisions to make about how he is going to approach high school extracurriculars. I don't know that we will choose the route of specializing. We are still considering, and I don't know that we will actually make a decision until he's done at least one year of high school. I've also always assumed he would have a job and save for college, but now I'm wondering where that will fit with all the study time and extracurriculars?

 

I'm wondering just how much the current trends in admissions are going to affect most high school kids. It seems to me that standing out among other applicants is going to be more of an issue at the selective schools, not necessarily for the average student who wants to attend a local university. And, it's just a current trend in admissions. We aren't bound to follow it just because someone said so. In the end each family is going to decide what works best in their own particular circumstances.

 

Can you imagine taking a kid who is well rounded and forcing him to specialize, then finding out 4 years later that colleges have come full circle and are back to wanting well-rounded kids again?:rolleyes: I'm going to be tailoring high school to suit my child, not admissions offices.

 

Still, I want to know what colleges are looking for. There are ways to highlight what makes your child unique, even if he or she doesn't choose to pursue a particular interest to the nth degree.

 

I'm still thinking through high school and, like other posters, I have no direct experience. I hope some of what I wrote makes sense!

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Kareni, thank you for the suggestion. I am considering speech and debate as extracurriculars. He has taken Omnibus II (all the readings) and Omnibus III (Primary books only) in 8th and 9th grades. AP Lang. in 9th grade (4/5), Rhetoric I and Logic with TPS in 10th grade and is currently in AP Lit. in 11th grade. One possibility is the C.S.Lewis study with Potter's School which is a one semester course. Speech might be a little overkill for him at this point. Journalism might interest him but I don't know who offers this. Would Philosophy count? Also, I am not sure how to title the Omnibus courses on the transcript. Would something like Great Books of the Medieval World for Omnibus II work? I am not quite sure how to title Omnibus III. Thanks for any input.

 

This link is to a syllabus for a course titled "Emergence of the Modern". Would that be something parallel to Omnibus III?

 

He could do British Literature or a World Literature course. Creative Writing or drama. Arthurian legend. World mythology (which could include Arthurian legends and even Lord of the Rings). The Bible as literature (I might throw in Pearl, Pilgrim's Progress, parts of Dante, Paradise Lost and maybe something really modern like The Red Tent - in part because it is emblematic of how the Bible stories are handled "in the world"). My college had a Tolkein, Lewis and someone else course. Literature of war (could include ancients, Civil War, WWI (especially poetry), WWII and on to the present.

 

It's great to be in a position of being creative. But unless his college career is one that will not have him in courses with reading and writing, I wouldn't miss the opportunity to help him improve these skills. It wasn't uncommon for me to need to read a work and write a 3-5 page paper on it every week - in each of my English and history courses.

 

On the journalism idea, I met a high schooler recently who writes for a local online community newspaper. She was doing a column and a number of articles for two different community online sites run by the same company. Evidently she earned over $2000 during the year doing this. And it sounded like she'd learned a lot about writing and journalism.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I definitely feel your pain about trying to gaze into multiple crystal balls and determine what your kid wants to be and what colleges want.

 

And I am with you on being wary of chasing trends, only to find out that you are last year's flavor. I think that often what comes out of admissions offices as explanation is a justification for why they picked the students they wanted to pick.

 

I have also heard the suggestion to find a couple venues and dig deeply into them. And I still think that is sound advice.

 

I'm just hesitant to take deep involement in a passion as a pass on also needing to be deeply involved in academics.

 

(I wasn't really trying to disagree with you - or with the prof, too much. I do think that sometimes we (parents, homeschoolers, people in general) may tend to seize on a bit of conventional wisdom that backs up what we want to do anyway. And of course, that is no less applicable to what I've written.)

[Kathy in Richmond]

I've watched a lot of homeschoolers go through the college admissions process over the years, through my friends scattered about the US, my kids' friends from math teams, competitions, AoPS friends, etc. Purely anecdotal here...

 

I'm not discounting AP at all, and I don't think that the Princeton professor was, either. My take on what she offered was that doing more and more APs doesn't get you extra brownie points in admissions if you're studying so much that you've sacrificed other interesting pursuits. Her point about wanting kids that know how to prioritize their energies and not be overwhelmed when they hit college deserves some thought. We have personally witnessed quite a few friends and acquaintances have an extremely difficult time once they've arrived at MIT (overwhelmed & scared, don't know how to ask for help, end up dropping out; not just one kid, but several). Universities want to admit kids who will succeed. Having a string of AP 5s and another long string of unrelated extracurriculars sends up warning thoughts. Will this kid crumble when he gets his first B? Does he know what ECs he wants to pursue in college, or will he be overwhelmed by the choices? MIT experienced two student suicides already this academic year; it's a major concern there now.

 

Back to APs: Those homeschoolers we've known with top scores in lots of APs and a nice extracurricular pursuit or two HAVE done extremely well in elite university admissions. Here I'm talking reaching a level like National AP scholar before grade 12 or Siemens awards. The Ivies in particular have scooped up the homeschoolers I know that fall into this category. Equally talented kids we've known w/o the ton of AP scores have not fared so well in Ivy admissions. One gal in particular (math major) took lots of upper level math at a local well-respected university in the DC area (not community college). Her results were surprisingly poor at the elites. On all other counts she had what it takes, a very nice record of math competition participation/results and an EC (non-academic) that was taken to the highest national level. Another mom I know who is a superb homeschooler (kids in Harvard and Yale) was told directly by a Harvard admissions officer that her kids' AP grades, SAT/SAT II testing were impressive to them, not the countless community college A's that they received. Her kids also had very nice academic competition results and sports in their favor.

 

So don't rule out APs for homeschoolers yet. They certainly have a place in demonstrating rigorous coursework.

 

BUT, I've also seen excellent admissions results from homeschooler friends with ho hum AP scores and limited outsourced coursework (so not as much outside verification of mommy grades). These kids poured their hearts and souls into their academic extracurriculars such as the Intel science fair, math research, personal businesses. These kids tended to do better at the tech schools and Stanford and were less well-received at the Ivies. They had a few more bumps in the road when they hit university and had to adjust to the difficult coursework/tests, etc; not as exciting as the project and research work that they were accustomed to previously. But they eventually did well.

 

Again, these observations are just based on the sample of kids we know. My kids did do lots of APs with great results, mostly because I wanted them to be challenged at home, and university coursework was not available locally that could challenge them as much as AP level work (and APs were the less expensive route for us - $$ was a consideration here). One of my kids had top national academic awards in math and computer science and is extremely 'pointy' in his interests and coursework, while the other has broader interests and is more well-rounded, but still had several awards (just not at the level of her brother). My son knew from kindergarten age what he wanted to be when he grew up; my daughter still doesn't know.

 

I just find this fascinating... and I'm still pretty amazed at how lucky we were in the process. We just followed the paths that seemed to maximize learning for them at the time. We had one eye on colleges, but most of our decisions were based on what was good for the child, not what would optimize admissions results. :) And yes, I'm very glad that this process is over for us!!

 

ETA: shanvan, I've just discovered the Cal Newport books this year, and I love them - they fit our family's philosophy.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Kathy in Richmond

[MBM]

College admissions is so wonky. I think at some point the applicants are all so wonderful, they probably just throw the applications up in the air, and then admit the ones that land on top. I wonder if stapling on a few big bills would help? (j/k!)

My son would so love to just study math and do the minimum of everything else. As it is, he spends a lot of time on English and history (what should be his math time, he says), but I think he's learning a lot. It's not a complete loss! :D

And then there's grad school...

[shanvan]

I definitely feel your pain about trying to gaze into multiple crystal balls and determine what your kid wants to be and what colleges want.

 

And I am with you on being wary of chasing trends, only to find out that you are last year's flavor. I think that often what comes out of admissions offices as explanation is a justification for why they picked the students they wanted to pick.

 

I have also heard the suggestion to find a couple venues and dig deeply into them. And I still think that is sound advice.

 

I'm just hesitant to take deep involement in a passion as a pass on also needing to be deeply involved in academics.

 

(I wasn't really trying to disagree with you - or with the prof, too much. I do think that sometimes we (parents, homeschoolers, people in general) may tend to seize on a bit of conventional wisdom that backs up what we want to do anyway. And of course, that is no less applicable to what I've written.)

 

Yes, 'pain' is the right word!

 

No worries. I'm not sure I have a set opinion on all of this yet, except that there are several valid approaches to high school. I think of these posts as a helpful discussion. My opinion seems to change every time I read a different take. (Maybe, time to stop reading?) Sometimes I think I'd be better off wearing blinders and plugging along matching activities and courses to my Dc instead of obsessing about what this book or that person says about x,y,z issue in preparing for college!

[shanvan]

College admissions is so wonky. I think at some point the applicants are all so wonderful, they probably just throw the applications up in the air, and then admit the ones that land on top. I wonder if stapling on a few big bills would help? (j/k!)

 

:lol::lol:

 

My son would so love to just study math and do the minimum of everything else. As it is, he spends a lot of time on English and history (what should be his math time, he says), but I think he's learning a lot. It's not a complete loss! :D

 

And then there's grad school...

 

That is so evil! I will not think about grad school...will not think about grad school ...will not think about.....will not think.....la, la, la ...putting it out of my mind!

 

Whispering: Do you know any good books I could read about it? You may want to post them on the k-8 board so the moms with elementary students can think ahead! j/k

[Jane in NC]

One of my good friends is on the faculty at Cal Tech. Granted, he mostly works with grad students, but he has commented that many of his students would not have been admitted to Cal Tech as undergrads. His grad students have gone to LACs, state unis, Ivies and Ivy-wannabes. The critical thing is that they developed their passions in undergrad and then, more importantly, found their mentor in grad school.

 

Many of us have students whom we believe are headed to grad or professional school eventually--either because of their personalities or because their future careers demand it. I think what is critical is that our kids find colleges that allow them to grow so that they can successfully pursue their future options.

 

Again I will argue that homeschooling allows students to build foundations upon which they can discover potential passions. Whether this includes AP or not is obviously up to the individual student.

[memphispeg]

 

Again I will argue that homeschooling allows students to build foundations upon which they can discover potential passions. Whether this includes AP or not is obviously up to the individual student.

 

In the best of all possible worlds (we're reading Voltaire these days) ALL schooling should allow students to build those foundations for passions.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One of my good friends is on the faculty at Cal Tech. Granted, he mostly works with grad students, but he has commented that many of his students would not have been admitted to Cal Tech as undergrads. His grad students have gone to LACs, state unis, Ivies and Ivy-wannabes. The critical thing is that the developed their passions in undergrad and then, more importantly, found their mentor in grad school.

 

Many of us have students whom we believe are headed to grad or professional school eventually--either because of their personalities or because their future careers demand it. I think what is critical is that our kids find colleges that allow them to grow so that they can successfully pursue their future options.

 

Again I will argue that homeschooling allows students to build foundations upon which they can discover potential passions. Whether this includes AP or not is obviously up to the individual student.

 

I have heard variations on this theme in several different contexts lately. I've heard it relative to USNA admissions (in fact it was my classmates and I that were whispering it to each other when we were training to be BGOs). It is definitely the case with a few military specialties, where sucessful applicants to OCS have masters degrees and foreign language fluency.

 

I think this will be one of the consequences of so many more students applying to college. It leaves the selective schools (whether that is a service academy, an elite school, a selective LAC or tech school or just the flagship state school) with more than enough applicants for the slots they have.

 

One piece of balance I'm trying to keep in mind is that there isn't just ONE place where my kids will get a good education, a solid foundation for professional success and a rich environment for developing as adults. In fact, I often look at some of the most elite of selective universities and think that their goals as institutions may not actually line up with the goals I have for my kids.

 

Anyway, off to make pecans and cherries into suitable offerings for Pi Day. If anyone finds a great source for infallible crystal balls, don't forget to PM me. :D

[MBM]

That is so evil! I will not think about grad school...will not think about grad school ...will not think about.....will not think.....la, la, la ...putting it out of my mind!

 

Whispering: Do you know any good books I could read about it? You may want to post them on the k-8 board so the moms with elementary students can think ahead! j/k

 

Oops. Don't mean to provoke unnecessary anxiety. I meant that to be an encouraging comment. :)

In our experience, getting a masters degree was not terribly difficult (my son has an MS in EE). My daughter will be going away possibly this fall once she knows who will take her. She made it into two of her choices so far, and is waiting to hear from two others. Unfortunately, she has a steady boyfriend now here in Chicago and doesn't want to leave him. Ugh! Why can't she fall in love later? <--- that's the real problem. LOL.

Going for a PhD can be trickier. For that, I would definitely recommend reading how-to-navigate books. I used to have one bookmarked, but I can't find it now.

[regentrude]

One of my good friends is on the faculty at Cal Tech. Granted, he mostly works with grad students, but he has commented that many of his students would not have been admitted to Cal Tech as undergrads. His grad students have gone to LACs, state unis, Ivies and Ivy-wannabes. The critical thing is that they developed their passions in undergrad and then, more importantly, found their mentor in grad school.

 

Many of us have students whom we believe are headed to grad or professional school eventually--either because of their personalities or because their future careers demand it. I think what is critical is that our kids find colleges that allow them to grow so that they can successfully pursue their future options.

 

And in many subjects, where you go for your undergraduate does not matter all that much.

I teach at a state university and have met students who had been accepted into Ivies and chosen to decline this acceptance because they did not feel it worth the money; they came here instead. Our undergraduates get a solid education and go to all kinds of wonderful places for graduate school - and later nobody asks where they did their undergrad, it is grad school that counts.

 

So, we have decided to take the whole admissions lottery in a relaxed way. A good student will get into a good university, even if it is not an Ivy. I do not wish my DD to sacrifice her high school years to groom herself to look like the perfect applicant. She rides horses, loves it, spends a lot of time with it - but is not competing at national levels or winning impressive prizes. She has been singing in choir for many years, but has not participated in solo auditions, honors choirs, music competitions. I find this whole game of "demonstrating leadership in extracurriculars" absurd, because I honestly do not believe it has any bearing on future college success. And I feel sorry for every student who, instead of doing what he truly likes, spends his energy on developing himself into the perfect package and ends up not getting in. High school years are life years - not a time to be on hold, to be waiting for life to start, to put everything into the elusive college application.

 

So, we hope DD gets to go where she wants - but if not, I know she will get into a good school, and whereever she goes, the student is shaping the own education. In the end, what school that was matters much less than the selective schools would like us to believe.

[FaithManor]

I find this whole game of "demonstrating leadership in extracurriculars" absurd, because I honestly do not believe it has any bearing on future college success. And I feel sorry for every student who, instead of doing what he truly likes, spends his energy on developing himself into the perfect package and ends up not getting in. .

 

 

Regentrude, you hit on something that I've been thinking about. There are a record number of students headed to college and most institutions, due to budget cuts and belt tightening in general, are not expanding their faculty or classroom sizes. Thus, a HUGE pool of applicants vying for a fixed number of positions. Freshman class sizes at most colleges and uni's (trying to make a comparison of stats I'm seeing through Google) do not appear to be increasing in proportion to the record number of applicants.

 

Under these circumstances, it only stands to reason that some really great high school students will not get the offers they need to attend their first choice schools. They need to be prepared to not take the college admission's process as a personal indictment against themselves.

 

As for leadership, in 2007, there were - rough estimate - 15.6 million undergrads in the 2200 institutions of higher learning in the U.S. Assuming for the sake of argument that 3.9 million are freshman (1/4th), that's an awful lot of kids that are supposed to be "leaders" if they want to attend a top tier school. I don't know how many organizations there are in the U.S. for teens to "take leadership of", however, I'm willing to bet that in all of those organizations they can't allow everyone, no matter how talented and driven for college success they are, to become the boss. Someone, somewhere has to be a foot soldier for the cause...a member of the team...someone who participates for some reason other than to be the leader. Does this make them poor choices for college students? I think not!

 

This reminds me of our rocketry team. We have a competive Team America Rocketry Challenge team and only one student can be the team manager. Does this make the other team members less integral, less talented, less motivated, less.....? No, it does mean that one person delegates the job tasks and everyone recognizes that to be successful they must get behind the team manager and do their work to the best of their ability. They work as a team. I would certainly hate to think that when it came to college application time that the accomplishments this team has made only count for the team manager and not for the rest of the members. For one thing, that poor team manager kid would NOT be able to pull this off without his "comrades in arms". Each kid contributed the best they had to offer and I would hope that any college admin would recognize that the accomplishments of any leader are made on the backs of the very fine people whom he/she manages. But sometimes, when I listen to college admins talk about "leadership", I have to seriously wonder if they've ever stopped to consider this at all or what the consequences of having thousands "I'm the leader" wannabees on campus may mean for group dynamics. :lol:

 

Faith

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Regentrude, you hit on something that I've been thinking about. There are a record number of students headed to college and most institutions, due to budget cuts and belt tightening in general, are not expanding their faculty or classroom sizes. Thus, a HUGE pool of applicants vying for a fixed number of positions. Freshman class sizes at most colleges and uni's (trying to make a comparison of stats I'm seeing through Google) do not appear to be increasing in proportion to the record number of applicants.

 

Under these circumstances, it only stands to reason that some really great high school students will not get the offers they need to attend their first choice schools. They need to be prepared to not take the college admission's process as a personal indictment against themselves.

 

As for leadership, in 2007, there were - rough estimate - 15.6 million undergrads in the 2200 institutions of higher learning in the U.S. Assuming for the sake of argument that 3.9 million are freshman (1/4th), that's an awful lot of kids that are supposed to be "leaders" if they want to attend a top tier school. I don't know how many organizations there are in the U.S. for teens to "take leadership of", however, I'm willing to bet that in all of those organizations they can't allow everyone, no matter how talented and driven for college success they are, to become the boss. Someone, somewhere has to be a foot soldier for the cause...a member of the team...someone who participates for some reason other than to be the leader. Does this make them poor choices for college students? I think not!

 

This reminds me of our rocketry team. We have a competive Team America Rocketry Challenge team and only one student can be the team manager. Does this make the other team members less integral, less talented, less motivated, less.....? No, it does mean that one person delegates the job tasks and everyone recognizes that to be successful they must get behind the team manager and do their work to the best of their ability. They work as a team. I would certainly hate to think that when it came to college application time that the accomplishments this team has made only count for the team manager and not for the rest of the members. For one thing, that poor team manager kid would NOT be able to pull this off without his "comrades in arms". Each kid contributed the best they had to offer and I would hope that any college admin would recognize that the accomplishments of any leader are made on the backs of the very fine people whom he/she manages. But sometimes, when I listen to college admins talk about "leadership", I have to seriously wonder if they've ever stopped to consider this at all or what the consequences of having thousands "I'm the leader" wannabees on campus may mean for group dynamics. :lol:

 

Faith

 

I will confess that my own emphasis on "leadership" is in part because I spend so much time working with students applying to service academies and ROTC programs. Because the purpose of those programs is to produce military leaders, that does create a certain spin. (In a similar vein, I imagine that a school for performance majors would want to see examples of previous performance experience.)

 

Maybe "investment" is a better term than "leadership". Because you're right, there can only be so many chiefs in any organization. But there is a difference between a team member or group member who just shows up and one who is really contributing.

 

To use an example from scouts, anyone who is registered and paid up is considered an "active scout" by BSA. But there are registered scouts who only show up once a year, for their favorite campout. There are those who show up to most meetings, but not for service projects, planning meetings, campouts or work days. Then there are scouts who are have to miss a lot of meetings because of school or sports, but who are there for every single work day and service project and try to make most campouts. There are leaders in name only and leaders who never hold the official title.

 

It sounds like most of the rocketry team members you're describing would fall into the very invested category. What I'm trying to ferret out in an interview is the club collector who tries on all sorts of activities, but never puts out much effort in any of them. I think trying lots of stuff can be great; I just don't want my kids to just be receivers of the efforts of others. I want there to be at least some places where they are working to improve the activity they are in.

[HodgesSchool]

Absolutely! What highly selective schools chose 30 years ago and what they chose now is pretty much identical: students who show they have thrived in an academically challenging and relatively balanced situation before college AND have had some passion that made their application stick out of the pile.

 

When admissions folks are looking at a stack of 100 kids with 99% scores in everything they've done, the thing that makes that 1 who will be accepted stand out is where they've specialized and seem effervescent.

 

When admissions folks are looking at a stack of 100 kids with passion, it is the kid who has done well is a complex mix of difficult studies who will win their support.

 

If you're applying to less selective schools, I can easily imagine how either path might get you admitted. For the terribly selective, you really need both. And both passion and breadth has to be combined with a lot of luck, given the numbers these days!

 

I definitely feel your pain about trying to gaze into multiple crystal balls and determine what your kid wants to be and what colleges want.

 

And I am with you on being wary of chasing trends, only to find out that you are last year's flavor. I think that often what comes out of admissions offices as explanation is a justification for why they picked the students they wanted to pick.

 

I have also heard the suggestion to find a couple venues and dig deeply into them. And I still think that is sound advice.

 

I'm just hesitant to take deep involement in a passion as a pass on also needing to be deeply involved in academics.

 

(I wasn't really trying to disagree with you - or with the prof, too much. I do think that sometimes we (parents, homeschoolers, people in general) may tend to seize on a bit of conventional wisdom that backs up what we want to do anyway. And of course, that is no less applicable to what I've written.)

[memphispeg]

Regentrude;

I told my dds, the purpose of high school was high school, enjoy whatever you want to enjoy....keep your activities that really interest you, etc. We were pretty relaxed about all the extra-Cs...my kids just liked dancing, so that is what they did. They spent many happy hours doing it too. They took the classes that they felt would explore those fundamentals that everyone says need to be explored in high school and early college. So, less stress, happier, fulfilled teens, at least I hope.

My eldest dd was really happy to get to college and to be able to find her intellectual passion easily and she still dances up a storm. Youngest? We'll see. I know she'll know it when she sees it. She has applied to schools that appear to have the best programs in where her interests lie. No Ivys but some nice state and private schools that would allow her to shape her future.

[creekland]

 

So, we have decided to take the whole admissions lottery in a relaxed way. A good student will get into a good university, even if it is not an Ivy. I do not wish my DD to sacrifice her high school years to groom herself to look like the perfect applicant. She rides horses, loves it, spends a lot of time with it - but is not competing at national levels or winning impressive prizes. She has been singing in choir for many years, but has not participated in solo auditions, honors choirs, music competitions. I find this whole game of "demonstrating leadership in extracurriculars" absurd, because I honestly do not believe it has any bearing on future college success. And I feel sorry for every student who, instead of doing what he truly likes, spends his energy on developing himself into the perfect package and ends up not getting in. High school years are life years - not a time to be on hold, to be waiting for life to start, to put everything into the elusive college application.

 

So, we hope DD gets to go where she wants - but if not, I know she will get into a good school, and whereever she goes, the student is shaping the own education. In the end, what school that was matters much less than the selective schools would like us to believe.

 

This ended up being us too. I never was tuned into college admissions early enough to care too specifically about what we did, and by the time I did figure it out, it was too late to get more AP classes for middle son. So, in the end, it's probably why he was waitlisted at WUSTL, but... I'm thrilled with where he is [likely] going (University of Rochester) as I think it's a better overall fit for both him and our family in general. As an added bonus, he got to truly enjoy his teen years doing what he liked (esp chess and various youth group activities) and didn't have to stress out.

 

Lately, as I've read posts from kids on college confidential with regards to those top schools, I'm really pleased that my guy is not stressed over them at all and not shedding a tear about not getting in to WUSTL. Instead, he's excited about where he did get in and that we got the finances to afford it. I'm really glad we opted not to apply to any Ivies (their not having merit aid was one of the factors in not applying).

 

Enjoy life more, stress less.

 

Youngest son doesn't have any eyes set on top level colleges, so my "stress about college" days are pretty much totally over (I think). But I also think he's going to take the AP Bio test next year to help him get in to places with better opportunities for merit aid. Our school only offers cc credits and they just aren't looked at in the same light IME. He loves Bio, so taking an AP in it won't be extraordinarily stressful.

[Nscribe]

My head spins watching college admissions become more and more competitive and simultaneously seeing constant reports from colleges that students are entering underprepared. It is like a race where everyone is running further and faster to arrive and find out they should have been sailing, not running.

[Amy in TX]

And in many subjects, where you go for your undergraduate does not matter all that much.

I teach at a state university and have met students who had been accepted into Ivies and chosen to decline this acceptance because they did not feel it worth the money; they came here instead. Our undergraduates get a solid education and go to all kinds of wonderful places for graduate school - and later nobody asks where they did their undergrad, it is grad school that counts.

 

So, we have decided to take the whole admissions lottery in a relaxed way. A good student will get into a good university, even if it is not an Ivy. I do not wish my DD to sacrifice her high school years to groom herself to look like the perfect applicant. She rides horses, loves it, spends a lot of time with it - but is not competing at national levels or winning impressive prizes. She has been singing in choir for many years, but has not participated in solo auditions, honors choirs, music competitions. I find this whole game of "demonstrating leadership in extracurriculars" absurd, because I honestly do not believe it has any bearing on future college success. And I feel sorry for every student who, instead of doing what he truly likes, spends his energy on developing himself into the perfect package and ends up not getting in. High school years are life years - not a time to be on hold, to be waiting for life to start, to put everything into the elusive college application.

 

So, we hope DD gets to go where she wants - but if not, I know she will get into a good school, and whereever she goes, the student is shaping the own education. In the end, what school that was matters much less than the selective schools would like us to believe.

 

Thanks for this, regentrude. I always pay attention to your advice re: college matters and always find it sensible and helpful. :)

[MBM]

And in many subjects, where you go for your undergraduate does not matter all that much.

 

I agree. As long as the school has a strong program a student should be okay.

Many of my older kids' friends -- smart kids -- only applied to our state school but got in to terrific grad school programs afterward. A number of them are finishing up their PhDs right about now. They were worried about debt, although some of the Ivies do offer excellent financial aid.

[Kathy in Richmond]

I agree. As long as the school has a strong program a student should be okay.

 

Many of my older kids' friends -- smart kids -- only applied to our state school but got in to terrific grad school programs afterward. A number of them are finishing up their PhDs right about now. They were worried about debt, although some of the Ivies do offer excellent financial aid.

 

Yes, I agree, too. :) But we live in a state and income bracket where state university would have killed us financially. The COA is approximately $25,000 per year at the two in-state schools that would have met my kids' needs, and merit aid is scarce-to-not-available at those schools. We would have been full- pay there, and frankly, I'm not sure how we would have managed. We didn't feel like we had a lot of alternatives outside of looking at private universties. We ended up very lucky by the grace of God- the generous need-based aid policies at my kids' schools made their choices much, much less expensive than either U VA or William & Mary. One kid has already paid off his college loans, and the other will graduate debt-free.

 

Each individual family needs to educate themselves about the cost of college and the different financial aid and merit aid deals out there before they reach the college app stage!

[emubird]

My experience with interview committees for scholarships suggests that "leadership" can be interpreted pretty broadly. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're looking only for kids who have the right title next to their name. Someone can show leadership in a team situation without being the team "manager", and the admissions/scholarship folks are aware of this and looking for it.

 

Leadership isn't just who's giving orders. It's also demonstrating a passion for other kids to follow, or providing a good role model of how to work hard. It can be coming up with innovative ideas.

 

In fact, I suspect a lot of the admissions folks don't even take the titles all that seriously. They recognize that a lot of titles are bogus anyway -- so they'll look for what a student has to say about their role in an activity rather than the paper credentials.

 

I've watched admissions at both large and small colleges (from the inside, not as an applicant or parent of an applicant), and that's been my impression.

[shanvan]

My experience with interview committees for scholarships suggests that "leadership" can be interpreted pretty broadly. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're looking only for kids who have the right title next to their name. Someone can show leadership in a team situation without being the team "manager", and the admissions/scholarship folks are aware of this and looking for it.

 

Leadership isn't just who's giving orders. It's also demonstrating a passion for other kids to follow, or providing a good role model of how to work hard. It can be coming up with innovative ideas.

 

In fact, I suspect a lot of the admissions folks don't even take the titles all that seriously. They recognize that a lot of titles are bogus anyway -- so they'll look for what a student has to say about their role in an activity rather than the paper credentials.

 

I've watched admissions at both large and small colleges (from the inside, not as an applicant or parent of an applicant), and that's been my impression.

 

This is a very good point. The past president of our 4H club was not nearly as motivated and involved as Ds who is currently president. Even if Ds does not remain president he will continue to organize events and seek out mentors and speakers for the club, thus assuming a leadership role without the title. I also know an extremely shy high schooler who is president of his 4H club, but does not demonstrate leadership skills in any way. He is president b/c no one else wanted the job.