Do feel that a pastor/minister/church leader should have a M.Div degree?

[T'smom]

Someone mentioned that a small church needed a pastor, but wasn't able to pay one enough for the pastor to pay back loans. My dad (who is a pastor) worked as a pastor while still in school. It was a tiny church in a rural area and he was given a percentage of the offering. It wasn't much, but I'm sure it helped. It was also experience. (The main way his schooling was paid for was by my mom working while he went to school!) This was also a really long time ago.

If God wants him in the ministry, He will open the doors that need to be opened.

[NotAVampireLvr]

I would also suggest a less expensive college and then go for a M. Div at a bible college to save money. Pastors in general do not make much, especially in the early years. Having that much school debt is very unwise IMO.

[Stayseeliz]

My husband and I both have degrees from seminary. My husband has an MDiv but isn't in the ministry anymore. I don't believe a $75k education is necessary to be a pastor. There are good online schools, etc that are much less. But I do think it's important to have a pastor who really knows how to understand scripture and has studied counseling, pastoral care, etc.

[Joanne]

Yes, at least.

[Jaybee]

I haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if I repeat. It is a very good idea to get a bachelor's degree in an unrelated and practical field, both for the broadening of experience as well as in case he needs to be bivocational at some point, especially when starting out. Then he can help support himself with that degree while working on an M.Div. It gives him something to fall back on if things go badly with the economy, or if the ministry position changes, or any number of unexpected happenings. Ministry positions can be unpredictable. I wish my husband had had better advice on that--he was told to get a B.S. in psychology, which is practically useless. The M.Div. degree is a rich and deeply satisfying degree, and you really learn so much. You "can" learn those things on your own, but really, it is a wonderful course of study, and the environment is intellectually and spiritually stimulating, not to mention the lifelong friendships you make.

[forty-two]

Definitely agree that its a v v v good idea to get a bachelor's in something marketable, or else learn a trade, or *something* - have some sort of fallback skill for earning a living.

 

I do have Big Feelings about avoiding/disdaining an M.Div. or higher theological education in general because of the sad but true fact that education can sometimes lead to pride issues, though. That bit of human nature is certainly something to be watchful for as one learns more - but it is *not* the fault of education itself, nor is it a reason to avoid education entirely.

 

I mean, this is a classical ed board - despite all the criticism classical ed gets about promoting head knowledge at the expense of character/heart-knowledge/what-have-you, we still believe it is worthwhile - that a strong academic-focused education, though not the end-all, be-all, is still valuable. Why does that suddenly not count when it's a matter of religion? Why is religious knowledge seen as less valuable and more dangerous?

 

I do believe that the original languages are a must - so much crappy, crappy doctrine has been promulgated by sincerely ignorant individuals. And church history is a big help - gives you a better chance to realize that this keen new insight you just had actually leads to a heresy - one that was debated and settled 1500 years ago.

[Parrothead]

This is one of those things that kind of boggles my mind. In my church priests are well educated. Even our deacons have at a minimum a masters in theology.

 

My friend's church on the other hand doesn't. She belongs to an independent Baptist church. Their pastor retired this summer. Their church has been looking for a new pastor for a while. They just hired an early 20-something. He still lives at home with his parents. And while he seems to know his faith and is charismatic (as in well spoken, personable, etc.) I have a hard time believing that this seemingly-still-wet-behind-the-ears-with-no-formal-education in ministry/theology and pastoral counseling or even basic business skills will lead the church well.

 

That said, I think spending $100,000 for a master's degree is a bit outrageous. If I get mine (in theology) according to the plan it will cost me under $50,000 over 5.5 years. I'll be CLEPing out of 30 basic ed credits and saving roughly $8000 doing so. This will be through an accredited private college with a combination of online and summer intensive classes on campus.

[DB in NJ]

No degree necessary. Scripture plainly spells out the qualifications for Pastors. A 4 year degree (or more) is not among the listed requirements ;)

[forty-two]

This is one of those things that kind of boggles my mind. In my church priests are well educated. Even our deacons have at a minimum a masters in theology.

 

My friend's church on the other hand doesn't. She belongs to an independent Baptist church. Their pastor retired this summer. Their church has been looking for a new pastor for a while. They just hired an early 20-something. He still lives at home with his parents. And while he seems to know his faith and is charismatic (as in well spoken, personable, etc.) I have a hard time believing that this seemingly-still-wet-behind-the-ears-with-no-formal-education in ministry/theology and pastoral counseling or even basic business skills will lead the church well.

 

That said, I think spending $100,000 for a master's degree is a bit outrageous. If I get mine (in theology) according to the plan it will cost me under $50,000 over 5.5 years. I'll be CLEPing out of 30 basic ed credits and saving roughly $8000 doing so. This will be through an accredited private college with a combination of online and summer intensive classes on campus.

:iagree:On another board we were discussing educational requirements for pastors, and I was told that our denomination's requirements - four year M.Div program, three years classroom, one year vicarage (internship for pastors), requires knowledge of original languages - were considered to be incredibly, incredibly high wrt the rest of American Protestantism :001_huh:. I was shocked that it was considered so very uncommon.

[forty-two]

No degree necessary. Scripture plainly spells out the qualifications for Pastors. A 4 year degree (or more) is not among the listed requirements ;)

Granted, one can be a genuine pastor without any education whatsoever. The only doctrinal requirements my denomination has is that to be a pastor you have to called by a congregation to serve as their pastor. That's it.

 

But to do it *well*, it takes a bit more. Certainly you can learn on the job - all pastors, no matter how well educated will - but a certain baseline can help safeguard congregations against more common errors. And my denomination considers knowledge of the original languages, theology, and church history (plus how to preach, counsel, etc.) to be our baseline.

 

And while I get other churches have different baselines, the denigration of the very idea of a baseline, or even having a theological educational at all, is very puzzling and disturbing to me :001_huh:. I mean, all pastors - whatever their starting knowledge - should be continually studying and learning.

[MindyD]

Dh and I both have bachelors in Christian Studies and obviously went to a private, Christian university. That amount of debt is a very bad idea. I would strongly urge him to get an undergrad degree in something that will get him a job. One day in class, my professor said "Statistically speaking, only 1 out of 10 of you will actually be in the ministry as a paid vocation within 10 years." At the time, I didn't believe him, but he was right. It's not that everyone gave up, but life takes people on different paths. So many of the people I went to school with ended up going back to school for more useful degrees (financially speaking) or else had a difficult time finding a job that would pay the bills for a family. That's not to say that nearly all of us aren't using our degrees in some way, but few are being paid for it. A man has a responsibility to prepare for taking care of himself and his family.

Perhaps he could double major if he really wants the undergrad religious degree? I agree with others that he can go for his MDiv at a much less expensive school.

[MindyD]

I don't think the people that say a degree isn't needed don't want and expect their pastor to study. They simply don't require that official piece of paper to prove it.

[lionfamily1999]

Granted, one can be a genuine pastor without any education whatsoever. The only doctrinal requirements my denomination has is that to be a pastor you have to called by a congregation to serve as their pastor. That's it.

 

I was told that our denomination's requirements - four year M.Div program, three years classroom, one year vicarage (internship for pastors), requires knowledge of original languages

 

But to do it *well*, it takes a bit more. Certainly you can learn on the job - all pastors, no matter how well educated will - but a certain baseline can help safeguard congregations against more common errors. And my denomination considers knowledge of the original languages, theology, and church history (plus how to preach, counsel, etc.) to be our baseline.

 

And while I get other churches have different baselines, the denigration of the very idea of a baseline, or even having a theological educational at all, is very puzzling and disturbing to me :001_huh:. I mean, all pastors - whatever their starting knowledge - should be continually studying and learning.

Does your denomination have requirements or not? I'm confused.

 

Also, I don't quite understand how DB denigrated the idea of a baseline. She just pointed out that the scripture doesn't say a degree is necessary.

 

Personally, I don't think that a piece of paper saying you made it through college courses with a minimum score proves someone to be learned or prepared to serve God as a pastor. I voted "no." Some of the most knowledgeable people I've had the joy to discuss God and the Bible with have not had any formal education beyond high school. They looked into it as they were led. They sought and found.

 

I'm worried this will come across as combative, it isn't meant to be. Your post confused me on two counts (whether or not there are requirements regarding educational achievements and how DB denigrated the idea of those standards). I disagree with you, but I understand why you feel the way you do.

No degree necessary. Scripture plainly spells out the qualifications for Pastors. A 4 year degree (or more) is not among the listed requirements ;)

[forty-two]

I don't think the people that say a degree isn't needed don't want and expect their pastor to study. They simply don't require that official piece of paper to prove it.

That's probably true in a lot of cases, but there's also this undercurrent of anti-intellectualism - that all a pastor (or anyone) needs is a Bible and the Holy Spirit - that at best there's no value in studying what "mere humans" have written and thought about theology, and at worst that such "head knowledge" is actually damaging.

[Annie G]

There are a few separate issues here.

 

#1 - Pastors cannot pay off $100,000 in student loans. Don't do it!!!

 

#2 - MDIV's can be earned without $100,000 in student loans. (My dh earned his MDIV without racking up $1 in debt b/c he worked at a job with tuition reimbursement. Plus the school deeply discounts for people who remain in churches of that denomination during their education. He has debt from his undergrad, but not the MVID. Certainly NOT $100,000!:001_huh:)

 

 

#3 - There is a huge percentage of MDIV people who cannot find FT pastorates. Finding a FT pastorate without the MDIV is going to be difficult. Bivocational ministry is an option if he doesn't get the MDIV.

 

#4 - In order to be a great pastor, he really needs the Greek/Hebrew. He really needs the classes on writing sermons, counseling, church organization, etc... He needs to set his ideas up against people who disagree and have academic arguments he must answer.

 

 

#5 - If it were my child, I'd encourage him to intern with a pastor for a while. Working as an associate pastor or youth pastor through school would be a great idea. (There are things that seminary doesn't cover!)

 

 

#6 - Pastoring is not a very stable job in many ways. He needs to have skills to fall back on should he need to get a secular job to provide for his family between ministry positions.

 

 

 

I am married to a pastor, and before I married him I served on a Pastor Search Committee. I will tell you, honestly, that there are two piles for resumes ime. Those with MDIV or higher. Those without.

 

:iagree: Our son in law has his MDIV but an undergrad degree in business. He's currently employed by a church as a worship pastor, and he also handles the business aspects of the church. He is prepared to do it all- counsel, preach, handle the music, etc. He and dd both have advanced degrees with no debt- they worked hard and paid as they went to school. It was tough, but not as tough as paying student loans for years and years.

[forty-two]

Does your denomination have requirements or not? I'm confused.

 

Also, I don't quite understand how DB denigrated the idea of a baseline. She just pointed out that the scripture doesn't say a degree is necessary.

 

Personally, I don't think that a piece of paper saying you made it through college courses with a minimum score proves someone to be learned or prepared to serve God as a pastor. I voted "no." Some of the most knowledgable people I've had the joy to discuss God and the Bible with have not had any formal education beyond high school. They looked into it as they were led. They sought and found.

 

I'm worried this will come across as combative, it isn't meant to be. Your post confused me on two counts (where or not there are requirements regarding educational achievements and how DB denigrated the idea of those standards). I disagree with you, but I understand why you feel the way you do.

Yeah, I was unclear on the requirements :doh.

 

Theologically speaking, we hold that the only requirement to be a pastor is to be called by a group of Christians to be their shepherd. So an underground house church in China can decide that member A of their little group is best qualified to be pastor, call him, and he is a real pastor, authorized to administer the Sacraments. You do the best you can with what you have.

 

And here in the U.S., we are blessed with a lot, have a lot to work with. So we have the luxury to be able to educate our pastoral candidates to a high standard. And so we don't certify candidates without their having gone through seminary, which includes studying the Bible in the original languages, etc., because we both believe it to be of value and are capable of doing it. But for places that aren't capable of it, it's a practical issue, but not a doctrinal one - pastors are pastors because they are called to serve a congregation, not because of their education or lack thereof. Does that make sense?

 

And it is probably my Big Feelings on the whole anti-intellectual strain in American evangelicalism that prompted my reaction, not her actual words :doh.

[Sherri in MI]

I do think that an M.Div is needed- however a bachelors from a bible college is not. My dad got a bachelors in math at a public university before going to seminary.

 

:iagree:

 

In fact I would recommend getting a bachelors in an unrelated field, esp. one in which one could get a secular job if one ever had too. Speaking as a former pastor's wife whose husband is unemployed.

[lionfamily1999]

Yeah, I was unclear on the requirements :doh.

 

Theologically speaking, we hold that the only requirement to be a pastor is to be called by a group of Christians to be their shepherd. So an underground house church in China can decide that member A of their little group is best qualified to be pastor, call him, and he is a real pastor, authorized to administer the Sacraments. You do the best you can with what you have.

 

And here in the U.S., we are blessed with a lot, have a lot to work with. So we have the luxury to be able to educate our pastoral candidates to a high standard. And so we don't certify candidates without their having gone through seminary, which includes studying the Bible in the original languages, etc., because we both believe it to be of value and are capable of doing it. But for places that aren't capable of it, it's a practical issue, but not a doctrinal one - pastors are pastors because they are called to serve a congregation, not because of their education or lack thereof. Does that make sense?

 

And it is probably my Big Feelings on the whole anti-intellectual strain in American evangelicalism that prompted my reaction, not her actual words :doh.

Okay, that makes way more sense. :lol:

 

I was like... we have no requirements... we have these requirements :huh: :lol:

 

I said no for the same reason you just named. I think it's unfair to make requirements in general that would not allowed for the persecuted churches to function or imply that they are not getting the real word, iykwIm.

 

I see now, thank you for understanding (hearing) my tone :D

[*********]

No degree necessary. Scripture plainly spells out the qualifications for Pastors. A 4 year degree (or more) is not among the listed requirements ;)

 

 

Like. :001_smile:

[justasque]

Couple thoughts -

 

It is wise to look at what he will need to be employed in his field of interest, as you are doing. But based on what you've posted, it does not seem like he can afford to get it.

 

Have you helped him to explore other professions that would either take less education or provide more income?

 

I'll be frank: I think taking on $100K in debt is foolish and irresponsible unless you are very likely to be able to pay it back promptly. That kind of debt will cause significant hardship for a very long time, affecting both him and his future family, and very possibly you and your husband as well depending on circumstances. With the economy the way it is, I'd be even more careful.

 

If you could afford to pay for most of his education up-front, then it sounds like a master's degree is a good goal. But it sounds like you can't afford it.

 

You mentioned tuition of $21K; I assume he'd live at home? If not, you'll have to plan for another $7K in room and board each year. Don't forget books, which can run as much as $500 per semester.

 

You said he'd get $3K-$5K in scholarships. Is that merit aid, or need-based aid? Do you anticipate any need-based aid? Are you and hubby able to pay part of his tuition, or is he on his own? How much of the estimated family contribution are you likely to be able to come up with? Have you compared the cost of this college to other schools, such as public colleges, private schools with large endowments, etc? Will the loans he gets be the type where the interest is subsidized or put on hold while he's in school, or the type that start accruing interest immediately? Is there a possibility of a work-study job as part of his financial aid package?

 

Having looked briefly at the school's web site, I am somewhat concerned that they do not seem to offer significant amounts of merit aid. You mentioned that your son scored well on his ACT; many schools offer such kids quite a bit of merit money.

 

We found that the "sticker price" was usually significantly different than what our kids actually ended up paying, and that a higher sticker price didn't always mean a higher actual price. It's wise to shop around, read up on financial aid, and ask lots of questions. I encourage you to look at other schools, even if he is unlikely to attend one, simply to give you some sense of the options. You're looking at spending a LOT of money - be sure you're getting what you want, and paying a good market rate for it.

[Tap]

Couple thoughts -

 

It is wise to look at what he will need to be employed in his field of interest, as you are doing. But based on what you've posted, it does not seem like he can afford to get it.

 

Have you helped him to explore other professions that would either take less education or provide more income? Yes, but he feels 'called' to this and it is what he really wants to do. I am trying to nudge him to consider other options.

I'll be frank: I think taking on $100K in debt is foolish and irresponsible unless you are very likely to be able to pay it back promptly. :iagree: That kind of debt will cause significant hardship for a very long time, affecting both him and his future family, and very possibly you and your husband as well depending on circumstances. With the economy the way it is, I'd be even more careful.

 

If you could afford to pay for most of his education up-front, then it sounds like a master's degree is a good goal. But it sounds like you can't afford it. We moved to this area years ago, partly due to the amount of colleges. We have told the kids, that we will not pay for tuition, but we will let them live at home rent free if they are carrying a serious load and working for their own spending money. We will help with incidentals, like supplies and books as we are able to.MU is 20 minutes from our home and he will live here.

 

You mentioned tuition of $21K; I assume he'd live at home? If not, you'll have to plan for another $7K in room and board each year. Don't forget books, which can run as much as $500 per semester. answered above.

 

You said he'd get $3K-$5K in scholarships. Is that merit aid, or need-based aid? Merit, it is GPA/SAT/ACT based and is for 5 years. He is on the cusp between $5,000 and $3,500 so his GPA for the rest of this year will determine which category he is in. . Do you anticipate any need-based aid? Maybe. Dh lost his job last year. We started a new business. Based on last year's taxes he will not get free aide. We are talking to the school about how to submit/get rejected/resubmit with special circumstances. If he gets any free aide, the school will match $500 of it. Are you and hubby able to pay part of his tuition, or is he on his own? How much of the estimated family contribution are you likely to be able to come up with? Books/fees only. We have put all of our money into dhs business. We also have a daughter in private school to pay for and our savings has lasted 9months but is just about gone. Have you compared the cost of this college to other schools, such as public colleges, private schools with large endowments, etc? Yes, but this is were he wants to go. (He doesn't have many opinions on things. He is very, very easy going, happy-go-lucky and is not a demanding person. He has a servants heart and would give anyone the shirt off his back. He wants solid t-shirts and plain blue jeans, he doesn't even like brand names. He is not a big dreamer, so, when he asks for something this specific, I know it really matters to him and I try to accommodate. Will the loans he gets be the type where the interest is subsidized or put on hold while he's in school, or the type that start accruing interest immediately? We are still applying, we don't know yet. Is there a possibility of a work-study job as part of his financial aid package? Possibly, but we won't know until later. By the time he starts there, he will have 2 years as a paid tutor experience so maybe he can find a job as a tutor there. Most of his experience is in tutoring upper level math (up to college calculus 2) but they only require basic math classes so I don't think they will have a need for what his skill set is in that arena,. They do have a coffee shop, but since he only drinks water, that would be kind of an odd fit for him. LOL

 

Having looked briefly at the school's web site, I am somewhat concerned that they do not seem to offer significant amounts of merit aid. You mentioned that your son scored well on his ACT; many schools offer such kids quite a bit of merit money. Answered above. Yeah, he had a lot of early application offers from colleges, even a few Ivys. He wants to stay in this area. Yale was after him for a while, and they have a Divinity school. He just wasn't interested..

 

We found that the "sticker price" was usually significantly different than what our kids actually ended up paying, and that a higher sticker price didn't always mean a higher actual price. It's wise to shop around, read up on financial aid, and ask lots of questions. We talked to the admins people for a couple hours one day. The lowest they expect him to pay is $10,000 and that is with free aid and matching. I encourage you to look at other schools, even if he is unlikely to attend one, simply to give you some sense of the options. You're looking at spending a LOT of money - be sure you're getting what you want, and paying a good market rate for it. :iagree: It is just getting him to fill out the application. IF I could do it for him, that would be great! He is very self motivated and has been in college for 2 years. He is not expecting me to do any of it for him. He is just pretty adamant about what he wants. LOL

 

 

We talked yesterday again and it sounds like I am making some progress on the idea of waiting one more year. He Will likely stay in CC and finish his associates. I told him I will help to pay tuition at the CC if he takes classes that will broaden his foundation and give him a start toward other careers. Not instead of...just as a bi-vocation.

 

 

 

 

I really, really appreciate everyone helping me think this through. It is nice to know that I am not out of the norm, thinking that this is an excessive amount to spend on this particular degree.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Tap, tap, tap

[Trivium Academy]

Personal opinion. A pastor's heart and passion about teaching others about God is more important than any degree s/he will ever earn. Degrees are only important to his desired path for example, if he wants to teach divinity or other class. Look to see what his elders have?

[justasque]

>> I am trying to nudge him to consider other options.

 

I think you're wise to help him see other possible ways to reach his goals.

 

>>We have told the kids, that we will not pay for tuition, but we will let them live at home rent free if they are carrying a serious load ...

 

Have you toured the other colleges in the area? Might at least be worth a visit. You really don't know how much any of them will cost you until you're very late in the application process. The more paths you plan for, the more choices you will have come spring of senior year.

 

>>Do you anticipate any need-based aid? Maybe.

 

That would be a big help. Why not ask him to plan at least two paths, one based on getting a decent amount of need-based aid to this school, and one as a backup if you do not qualify for much non-loan need-based aid.

 

>>We also have a daughter in private school to pay for and our savings has lasted 9months but is just about gone.

 

:grouphug:

 

>> Have you compared the cost of this college to other schools, such as public colleges, private schools with large endowments, etc?

Yes, but this is were he wants to go...He is not a big dreamer, so, when he asks for something this specific, I know it really matters to him and I try to accommodate.

 

Hopefully the school will come through. But encourage him to think outside the box. Are there majors at this school that would give him a better chance of a job with a good starting salary? That way he could still have the school, even if not the major. You could also help him to explore other schools where he could get the major he wants, perhaps at a lower price or with a better fin aid package.

 

>> Yale was after him for a while, and they have a Divinity school. He just wasn't interested..

 

It's nice for you that he wants to stay with family. :)

 

>>The lowest they expect him to pay is $10,000 and that is with free aid and matching.

 

Meaning $10,000 in loans? Or $10K plus the loans in his fin aid package?

 

>>It is just getting him to fill out the application. IF I could do it for him, that would be great! He is very self motivated and has been in college for 2 years. He is not expecting me to do any of it for him. He is just pretty adamant about what he wants. LOL

 

It's not easy being a parent! :grouphug: Perhaps you can offer to do the parts of the app that you can do, and he can do the rest.

 

>> We talked yesterday again and it sounds like I am making some progress on the idea of waiting one more year. He Will likely stay in CC and finish his associates. I told him I will help to pay tuition at the CC if he takes classes that will broaden his foundation and give him a start toward other careers. Not instead of...just as a bi-vocation.

 

That sounds like he will have a solid foundation when he graduates the CC, at a price you both can afford.

 

Good luck!!!

:grouphug:

 

>>I really, really appreciate everyone helping me think this through. It is nice to know that I am not out of the norm, thinking that this is an excessive amount to spend on this particular degree.

 

You are a wise, wise mom to help him to consider this aspect. The school is in the business of getting students, not of counseling them to make wise financial decisions.