Is it possible / legal...

[Ester Maria]

... for a high student to complete TWO courses of high school studies simultaneously, with minimal "double dipping" (as there would presumably be some overlapping content or maybe even entire courses overlapping, but the student would still get tested with each program according to its bibliography), with two different institutions / online / umbrella arrangements? Do things change if the high school programs are associated with different countries, in different languages, and the student wants to keep both options open? Is it problematic to be registered within one school system and fulfill its requirements, while at the same time belong to another accredited online diploma program or umbrella?

 

Are there any documents which regulate this and explicitly state that a student can or cannot belong to two distinct courses of study at the same time? Would one even be required to inform each institution and program of the fact they belong to another one too?

 

I am not interested in the discussion of why on Earth would one go that route, I am only interested in whether it is legally problematic or no.

 

Thank you in advance. :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

... for a high student to complete TWO courses of high school studies simultaneously, with minimal "double dipping" (as there would presumably be some overlapping content or maybe even entire courses overlapping, but the student would still get tested with each program according to its bibliography), with two different institutions / online / umbrella arrangements? Do things change if the high school programs are associated with different countries, in different languages, and the student wants to keep both options open? Is it problematic to be registered within one school system and fulfill its requirements, while at the same time belong to another accredited online diploma program or umbrella?

 

Are there any documents which regulate this and explicitly state that a student can or cannot belong to two distinct courses of study at the same time? Would one even be required to inform each institution and program of the fact they belong to another one too?

 

I am not interested in the discussion of why on Earth would one go that route, I am only interested in whether it is legally problematic or no.

 

Thank you in advance. :)

 

It may depend a little on which countries.

 

I seem to recall exchange students who met the requirements of graduation in their host US high school, then went home to complete the requirements in their home country.

 

If a program requires, for example, biology, it's not like the biology gets "used up" by one program.

 

You might try searching on some international expat boards. Sounds like the sort of thing they would be working through.

[Ester Maria]

Do you know of any such boards, Sebastian? My online presence is pretty much limited to these boards, so I have no idea where to search.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Do you know of any such boards, Sebastian? My online presence is pretty much limited to these boards, so I have no idea where to search.

 

I know they exist, but I'm not on any.

 

You might want to ask some of the folks who've been overseas a bit. Joan in Geneva, Heather in NC and Laura Corin spring to mind. But I'll bet a post on the general board would shake others loose.

 

The one thing that I did wonder was if a country had a test that qualified a student for free university enrollment if there might be some kind of residency requirements.

 

Unfortunately, my kids were only kindergarten when we were in Germany, so that's not a side of schooling I know.

[Teachin'Mine]

I can't imagine that there's any laws against it and it sounds like a good idea if the student wants to keep their options open. As long as they're willing to do the work required, there's no reason they shouldn't.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know that you can go to two community colleges or even higher at the same time. I would assume that would be ok at the high school level to but do not know absolutely for sure. The issue at the college level is more to do with financial aid. You could not use the same grant / financial aid for two different programs at the same time.

[Nan in Mass]

Wouldn't an IB program sort of be like that? One would have a diploma from one's high school as well as the IB exam results? I'm not sure how IB works, so I could be wrong, but it might be worth investigating as a test case. I would be willing to ask my high school contact person about this, if you like. And you might call Clonlara and Kolbe and a few of the other US schools that offer a homeschool diploma which incorporates courses taken elsewhere.

Nan

Edited February 10, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[Laura Corin]

My only concern would be to document all aspects very carefully, using public exams. Otherwise it might seem that the studies were not going to a high enough level (because so many subjects were achieved).

 

So I could imagine, for example, doing three A levels (UK system) and three APs (US system) but only if the child were taking all the exams to show achievement. It's quite common, for example, for American children at boarding school in the UK to take A levels and also the SAT so that they can get easier entrance to US universities.

 

As for the previous question about the IB: the IB course is usually instead of other high school studies, so the transcript would just reflect the same studies as the IB exams document.

 

Laura

Edited February 10, 2012 by Laura Corin

[Laura Corin]

Spam reported

[Nan in Mass]

In the US, when one "graduates" from school, one is given a diploma by the school. The diploma says that the student graduated. It might also say whether the student has graduated with honours. The diploma itself, within the US, is not important. It is assumed that this is an easily copiable piece of paper. What is important is that one now, forever after (in theory) is able to contact the school and ask them to send a "transcript" to another institution. A typical transcript lists the courses taken, the year taken (9th grade, etc.), the final grades assigned in those courses, and the date of graduation. A "course" is usually half a year or a year long and consists of a series of classes, assignments, and tests. There is usually a "final" but the final is usually only meant to force the student to review all the material again, not an ultimate test of the mastery of the material. The final is usually worth somewhere between 20% and 30% of the final grade in the course. One's transcript might also mention exams taken and extra curricular activities. Or it might not. If one's state has a school-leaving exam, then those scores would probably be mentioned on the exam. My state, Massachusetts, has an exam, but it is relatively recent. It is given in 10th grade. One has to pass it to graduate but it tests minimum knowledge to graduate so it isn't equivalent to the UK exams.

 

AP, SAT, and SAT2 (subject) exams are given by a commercial company. Colleges use them to compare applicants, but they aren't used by the state to determine graduation. For example, a student who went to his classes, did not do any of the work, but studied at home and took and passed 8 AP exams would not graduate. He might be able to negotiate something with the school as a homeschooler or with a private school, but as far as his own public school was concerned, he attended but did not pass any of his courses so he would not be allowed to graduate. The reverse is also true. It is perfectly possible for a student to go to a public school, take "AP classes" (ones designed to prepare a student to pass the AP exam), receive passing grades in all the classes (on the transcript) and graduate, while at the same time doing very poorly on the AP exams when the time comes to take them. Or not even take the exams. Naturally, schools would like their students to take and do well on the exams, but it isn't typically a requirement for graduation.

 

I suspect IB programs in the US work similarly, but I am not sure. (In other words, students who go through an IB program in public school have both a diploma and transcript from the school, and their certificate from passing the IB exam????) Hopefully somebody who has more experience with the IB program will post. The reason I mentioned the IB exam is because that is considered a complete high school course of study, whereas the AP's are only considered to be proof of having reached a certain level in one subject. Outside the US, it might possibly be that institutions consider having done well in a certain number of AP exams proof of having "completed" a high school course of study, but within the US, this is not true. One could not say one had graduated just because one did well on a number of AP exams unless one had made other arrangements (like private school or home school).

 

The US might not be a good country to try to double-up with, from this perspective. It might be better to double up with a country in which "graduated" means "passed a certain set of exams".

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Ester Maria - You might want to look at this thread for more information on how US diplomas work (if doubling up with the US is a consideration): http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346555

 

I think the simplest way to double up with the US would be to pick a cover school that would issue you a US diploma while double-dipping (Clonlara might?). Another way would be to sign up for something Keystone or K-12 or Kolbe or American School and not tell them you were also doing another course of work. They would issue you a diploma when you had completed their materials. It might or might not be "accredited". To be absolutely safe, you might want to pick a school program that is "regionally accredited" as are most public schools, rather than accredited through a private school accreditation program. The accreditation is only as good as the company that does the accrediting. If you are using a school that only has accreditation from an organization that accredits private schools, you might want to look at some of the better prep schools in the US (Phillips Academy Andover or Exeter would be examples) and make sure that your school has the same accreditation? Maybe? (It might turn out that that agency doesn't cover homeschool/correspondence/online schools. I'm guessing here.) That is how I would go about it, anyway.

 

It is an interesting question.

Nan

[Laura Corin]

Nan, would it work for a US-based pupil to have a US umbrella school transcript, stating a full range of normal courses backed up by a few US exams (say the SAT and some SAT subject or AP exams) and also have a high-school-worth of foreign qualifications, backed by another school. Then you would have the full 'US graduation' requirement, and the rest would be on top of that. Would there be any disadvantage to this? I was assuming that EM was thinking about something like this, but I may be wrong.

 

Laura

[In The Great White North]

I know of no regulations that would prevent this.

 

You could, for instance, go to school in Europe and do an accredited US homeschool program. You could sign up with Kolbe and Clonlara and get two transcripts. Neither would even need to know about the other unless you wanted to use a class from one for the other.

 

The question would be how much you could double dip.

[1Togo]

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but is there any disadvantage later on to going with an outside agency like Clonlara, Kolbe, or NARS? College acceptance? Scholarships?

Edited February 10, 2012 by 1Togo

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have one friend, who has used Crossroads Christian School for cover documentation and transcripts.

 

I don't think she had any issues with her eldest (who was accepted to a couple places and got good honors level scholarships). However, one school told her that her son would get better consideration if he applied as a straight homeschooler rather than with the covering org transcript.

 

I am guessing that the basis for this is that the admissions board for this school has one staffer who briefs all of the homeschoolers. He is in a pretty good position to point out the strengths and challenges of a homeschool app. On the other hand, someone applying with a cover transcript may end up being dinged if the profile for that school doesn't indicate that a high level of their grads go on to 4 yr and 2 yr colleges.

 

This is an example of what I mean by Profile. This one is for an entire school district. I've also seen them for specific schools. At one point in time, admissions officers had a big book with all of these stats. I think this is now something that guidance officers provide to the colleges each year upon request.

 

I don't know if this is something that a homeschool umbrella org would provide or would be able to provide. I'm also not sure if a college would get any useful information from it, since the actual instruction is so individualized and the life goals of the students varies so much.

[1Togo]

Thanks. Also, I see that a NARS diploma would be a Maine diploma, so I am wondering if a student who does not live in Michigan would be considered an out-of-state student for college apps in their home state.

Edited February 10, 2012 by 1Togo

[Nan in Mass]

Mind you, I'm just guessing here. It isn't as though I had tried any of this. : )

 

I think the question is work for what? For entry to US universities? You would face the same problems than any US homeschooler using that cover school would face. For entry to foreign universities? They probably would prefer to look at the foreign qualifications, those being more quantifiable and familiar (really guessing here). I'm not sure why anyone would want a US high school diploma LOL. US universities accept foreign students using their foreign qualifications all the time. The student has to prove proficiency in English via an exam. Would the US university be more likely to accept a student because the student had a US diploma on top of a foreign one? I doubt it. I think the universities accept or turn down based on a) whether the student has the minimum academic qualifications and they would probably be familiar enough with the foreign qualifications to judge based on those and b) other factors like balancing the student body and trying to have an interesting student body, one which will do them credit. Residency is considered when applying to a public (state run) school. Most of the rest want as diverse a student body as possible. The US diploma might be advantageous if one weren't going to university, if one were seeking employment with a US employer. It might also be advantageous if one wishes to have anything to do with security clearances (really guessing again) or with the military or the military academies.

 

Having been through the application process for a US college, I can tell you that sometimes the application has a statement that one must sign that says that one has submitted ALL academic records. This would mean writing to any cover school in which one were enrolled and asking them to mail the transcript, or writing to any testing organization and asking them to mail all the exam scores. It might be that the cover school has something similar that it wants the applicant to sign. This is the part where one must either decide to lie or one must tell one school about the other or the university about both. This is pretty common. The question would then be whether any organization cared whether there were other transcripts and exams involved.

 

To give a practical example of this:

 

In order to apply to university as a public high school graduate, my son had to contact his high school and ask them to send his transcirpt to the university. He also had to contact the community college, where he had taken a refresher math class, and ask them to send the university a copy of his community college transcript. He had to write to the college board company and ask them to send his SAT scores. And because the university also asked for letters of reference, he had to ask his employer (or his guidance councelor) to send a letter, and one of his old high school teachers to send a letter. He chose his chemistry teacher, since he was going into a technical field and he knew his chemistry teacher would remember him. This letters were private arrangements between the boss or teacher and my son. The school had nothing to do with that part. In his university application, there was a place where he had to sign a statement saying that he had submitted all academic records. The application asked about his health, his hobbies, other accomplishments and awards, jobs, whether he had ever been to court, why he wanted to go to this school, and his citizanship and state residency. He also was interviewed (optional). The school was especially interested in his grade point average (GPA) (sent by his high school), SAT scores (sent by the college board company), letters of reference, and whether he had had four years of high school science (through pre-calc). (Some high schools have a graduation requirement of only 3 years of math - algebra 1, 2, and geometry. This university wanted to see that the applicant had not stopped taking math classes and had the appropriate math skills to be successful.)

 

My middle son graduated from my homeschool and applied to the same school. He filled out the same application. I sent his high school transcript, something I wrote up showing his high school courses. He had taken community college classes as part of his high school, so I listed those on the transcript with an asterix indicating that he had taken the classes elsewhere. The community college had to send a separate transcript listing those same classes. The college board company sent his SAT scores. He had letters of recommendation from a community college professor and his community college advisor (in lieu of a high school guidance councelor). We used his community college gpa. The university also wanted a piece of paper of some sort from our town's school system saying that he was homeschooling legally and that he had completed their requirements for graduation. Note that this is not the same thing as completing the high school's requirements for graduation AT ALL. It just means that as a homeschooler, he had completed the requirements the state (represented by the town) has for home schoolers. (In this case, the school approves my educational plan each year and I submit work samples and a progress report at the end of the year.) I think we might have had trouble if we hadn't had that piece of paper. I was told the reason behind this is that the university ws trying to make sure that high school drop-outs are not disguising the fact by saying they are homeschoolers. This particular school might accept a high school drop-out IF he had taken the GED (the US high school equivalency exam). It might ask that he take some community college classes first, however.

 

Another route into US universities is through the community college system. The community college has its own entrance exams, to avoid dealing with all sorts of unknown foreign qualifications or problems with English proficiency and in order to give students without an academic record a chance. Requirements vary from college to college, but it is possible to find one whose only requirement is proficiency with English. One can even take ESL classes there and take remedial math and literacy classes. They don't count towards one's degree, however. Once a student has aquired some community college credits, it is possible to apply to a university as a transfer student. And this is where it gets complicated: Some universities care whether the student originally had or did not have a high school diploma or GED. Some universities do not, after a certain number of credits. It depends on the college. I have had people from two different public Massachusetts state universities give me two different answers about my youngest, who will have completed about a year of community college credits by the time he applies to university. One will consider him a college student transfering to another college and be totally uninterested in his high school record. The other will consider him a high school student who took some college classes and want his high school record AND THAT PIECE OF PAPER FROM THE TOWN SCHOOL SYSTEM SAYING HE "GRADUATED" (the universities are rather confused about the town school system's role in homeschooling) FROM HIGH SCHOOL. (Not shouting - just being lazy about italics.)

 

Anyway, you now probably know way more than you ever wanted to know about my children's application to university LOL. And you are probably more confused than ever about the US educational system.

 

Nan

 

ETA - A post with information about accreditation: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3597940#poststop

Edited February 10, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

1togo - I think you mean a Maine diploma? If you are considering NARS, you might want to do a board search for more information. I seem to remember there being some controversy surrounding them? Maybe?

 

At least in our case, residency for one's state school has nothing to do with where one's diploma is issued. Residency is determined by other things, like driver's license, lease, electric bills, etc. I'm sure diploma could be part of that, but only if it were a recent diploma, probably from a brick-and-mortar school.

Nan

Edited February 10, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[1Togo]

You are right. I meant Maine. When I did a search, I found that I asked about NARS a while back, but I didn't think about the out-of-state diploma until today.

Edited February 10, 2012 by 1Togo

[Joan in GE]

I don't actually see how it could legally be a problem...

 

In Europe, some countries/schools are really only looking at exam results as the 'diploma' for a school has no bearing. Eg in Switzerland, if you finish high school with good grades but don't do the Maturite - you have nothing, if you want to go to university right away. If you want to do an apprenticeship, they'll give you a test, or look at test results from 9th grade or other things...

 

But they will take an American diploma with AP's

 

If someone who finished high school here in Switzerland, then went and did the French bacc, how would that be different?

 

I say 'if you want to go to uni right away' as they will give some kind of value to life experience and other diplomas when you are 25 yo...but that's a long time to wait...

 

So if someone wanted to do a US diploma and prepare for the matu at the same time (just in case), I would document the credits for the US diploma using materials for the Matu...but at the same time see what preparation could overlap to do AP's and SAT II's....

 

Foreign languages done at a regular European level should be a breeze for SAT/APs...

 

Bio and physics C AP's might be a bit higher than a matu, while physics B about the same as an AP...Chem - not sure...

 

Calculus AB - if not for a math science track might be about the same...BC might still not be high enough for math/science track...though overlap definitely....

 

Human geo AP unrelated to Geo matu...history no idea...statistics gets no value in Swiss uni applications...neither computer....

 

Have to run but will maybe edit later,

Joan

[Trilliums]

When the kids were in a charter school in CA the school explicitly stated that they could not be simultaneously enrolled in any other schooling option. BUT, the charter schools are affiliated with the public school system. I believe this is primarily a funding issue. This was several years ago though, and the rules/laws governing home ed (in every state!) are often in flux.

[Pixie]

I know some French expat who have kids attending school in the US and they are also enrolled in the CNED. A long time ago, I had planned on my kids taking the French baccalaureat at the end of high school (after all we had to get though it so they should too lol) however I don't think we will go through with it, neither one speaks or writes French well enough to have a chance to pass, never mind the extra time that would be needed to cover the different subjects.

[Nan in Mass]

Another thought - I think maybe I remember seeing that the Alliance Francais says its Saturday school prepares its students to take the French bacc? And if I am remembering correctly, those students would have a French bacc AND a US high school diploma. I think the French school in Boston probably gives its students a US private high school diploma and also has their students take the bacc. Ester Maria - The easiest way to answer this question might be just to give them a call. I have never spoken to them, just looked at their website, but I suspect they would easily be able to answer your question. They deal with a variety of students, some of whom may be trying to combine two countries other than the US, also, so they may know whether there are disadvantages. I think this is their contact info (off a different website and I haven't time at the moment to double check with theirs):

 

45 Matignon Road, Cambridge, MA, 02140, USA

Tel: (+1) 617 499 1451

Fax: (+1) 617 499 1454

contact@ecolebilingue.org

www.ecolebilingue.org

 

Nan

[Ester Maria]

You could, for instance, go to school in Europe and do an accredited US homeschool program. You could sign up with Kolbe and Clonlara and get two transcripts. Neither would even need to know about the other unless you wanted to use a class from one for the other.

This is what I effectively had in mind, yes - as an alternative if the said child does not get into a boarding school.

 

I am a little overwhelmed now. :leaving:

I need to think about this some when I de-stress myself from thinking about it now.

Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions.

 

[too much info]

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ester Maria

[1Togo]

NA

Edited February 10, 2012 by 1Togo

[8filltheheart]

Ok, I haven't gone through and read the whole thread. Only this post and your OP. I am confused (and obviously lazy ;) ) Is the boarding school here in the US? What are the benefits to a US diploma? (asking b/c I don't readily see any for my own kids, so this is a serious inquiry.)

 

Kolbe is accredited and is flexible about allowing parents to substitute in coursework. I think they would be more than willing to work with you. The problem is that you will end up having to create huge numbers of your own courses b/c the ones they offer don't get that advanced. Homeschool providers just aren't equipped to provide coursework for extremely advanced students.

 

One option that you might be able to implement might be MIT's new certificate program that they are launching this spring. Perhaps you could substitute in those courses so that you don't feel the onus on you to create/grade/provide the class. http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/mitx-education-initiative-1219.html

[Ester Maria]

Nan, I only know what dual graduation looks like with ESABAC (Italian maturita' + French Bac combined). That is what originally we had planned for our eldest, but we will see, as she switched to the French system.

 

The problem is that, if I gather things correctly, to have a "US matriculation" she would need a completed course of studies, because there is no exact equivalent to Bac in the American system. Unless she took APs / SATs / etc. as an external candidate? I first thought of that option, but I have no idea how it works.

[Laura Corin]

And then how does one even go about APs and SATIIs and whatnot? How does one request testing - with the international schools probably? - but while de iure not homeschooling because enrolled with the other system?

Most international schools allow external candidates, I think.

 

Alternatively, there are IB options, but I think they only function for full time enrollment - I am not sure how does it work if one is a non-attending student?

 

To my knowledge, one can't take the IB exams if one is not a full-time student in the same school. It's not like APs or A levels.

 

 

Good luck making decisions - this all sounds quite tough.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

 

The problem is that, if I gather things correctly, to have a "US matriculation" she would need a completed course of studies, because there is no exact equivalent to Bac in the American system. Unless she took APs / SATs / etc. as an external candidate? I first thought of that option, but I have no idea how it works.

 

From my own previous researches and Nan's confirmation, you need a high school transcript to show that you have complete US high school, not exams. Some (but not all) pupils back up the transcript with APs and most (college-bound) will back it with the SAT/ACT. But the transcript is the basic document, not the exams.

 

For comparison, Husband went to high school in Dallas and took no exams beyond the SAT. It was the transcript that got him into university.

 

It really is sounding as if the easiest thing would be to either a) go completely with the US system: transcript plus any US exams or b) go with a foreign system (bac or equivalent) topped up with US SAT(s) and APs if necessary in order to allow entrance to a US university. It's worth looking at some US college websites and seeing how they deal with overseas qualifications. For example, many US universities accept A levels as the equivalent of AP exams.

 

Laura

Edited February 10, 2012 by Laura Corin

[Ester Maria]

It really is sounding as if the easiest thing would be to either a) go completely with the US system: transcript plus any US exams or b) go with a foreign system (bac or equivalent) topped up with US SAT and APs if necessary in order to allow entrance to a US university.

I would like to go with B), she would like to go with A). That is basically the crux of the issue. Thus her crazy suggestion to somehow mesh the two options.

 

I would really need her to go with B) for some other things too. I need her enrolled.

[1Togo]

Just wondering. Is your daughter planning on US university? If she is an advanced student and plans on US university, why doesn't she start now?

[Ester Maria]

What are the benefits to a US diploma? (asking b/c I don't readily see any for my own kids, so this is a serious inquiry.)

Heaven help me figure out what goes on in her mind.

 

[cutting too much info, sorry, this is making me nervous]

 

(Is not Kolbe Christian? I saw amongst their requirements Christian theology and such.)

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Ester Maria]

Just wondering. Is your daughter planning on US university? If she is an advanced student and plans on US university, why doesn't she start now?

Because she has no clue what she really wants and really badly needs a few additional years (at least) to mature a bit. Seriously. She is NOT a good candidate for early enrollment of any kind.

[EKS]

 

Alternatively, there are IB options, but I think they only function for full time enrollment - I am not sure how does it work if one is a non-attending student?

 

 

There is a place that just started up that is offering online IB courses, but you have to be enrolled in an actual IB school to take them. And they don't have a full complement of courses yet.

[Nan in Mass]

Ester Maria - This might be as simple as getting a French bacc and then applying to a US university with the French bacc. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Here, for example, is from Harvard's frequently asked questions section on foreign applicants. I snipped out the bits that I thought would be of interest to you. It boils down to this (in case you are feeling too overwhelmed to want to read through it): There is no cap to the number of foriegn applicants accepted. Foreign applicants are encouraged to finish their course of study, even if part way through, they meet the requirements for admission to Harvard (a common situation when US high schoolers are compared to something like the French bacc program). Foreign students must take the SAT and two SAT subject tests. The subject tests cannot be two maths or in the student's native language. They do not need to take the Test Of English as a Foreign Language test. They must take the SAT and two subject SATs even if they have IB, A-levels, or APs. When you fill out the financial aid forms, Harvard will give you a certificate of eligibility which you then use to get a student visa. As contrast, I looked at the University of New Hampshire website for its requirements for foreign students http://admissions.unh.edu/apply/international-students/application-requirements/ It pretty much says that you have to submit any transcripts of previous coursework translated into English and SAT scores and TOEFL scores.

 

Harvard

 

Are there quotas for international applicants?

 

There are no quotas or limits for international students. All students are considered in the same pool for all places in the incoming class, regardless of citizenship or the school they attend. A student's chances for admission and financial aid are not affected by citizenship or by the location of the school that the student attends.

 

Are there secondary school course requirements for admission?

 

There is no single academic path we expect all students to follow, but the strongest applicants take the most rigorous secondary school curriculum available to them.

Must a student have certain grades or marks to be considered for admission?

 

The Admissions Committee recognizes that schools vary by size, academic program and grading policies, so we do not have rigid grade requirements. We do seek students who achieve at a high level, and most admitted students rank in the top 10-15 percent of their graduating classes.

How familiar is the Admissions Committee with secondary schools? their rigor? what marks mean in a particular school or educational system?

 

We have worked hard for many years to learn about schools around the world. Our careful study of different schools, curricula and educational systems benefits, too, from information we receive directly from schools, extensive personal communication with school personnel and the interview reports we receive from our alumni/ae, who meet thousands of applicants to the College each year. We can always learn more, so we welcome information students think might be helpful to the Admissions Committee in understanding their accomplishments in their school communities.

 

Does Harvard consider non-required test results, such as Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate, Abitur or GCE A-levels?

 

Yes. We value predicted A-level and IB results along with any information that helps us form a complete picture of an applicant's academic interests and strengths. However, results from these examinations cannot substitute for our required admissions testing. All applicants must submit the results of the SAT I or ACT as well as two SAT II Subject Tests.

 

What should students know about visas?

 

All applicants who are not U.S. citizens or permanent residents must submit the Financial Statement for Students from Foreign Countries (sent with the application materials or available at www.fao.fas.harvard.edu) whether applying for financial aid or not. We can then issue a Certificate of Eligibility (the I-20 form) to admitted students who accept our offer of admission. Students may present this form at the nearest U.S. Consulate to apply for the F-1 Student Visa.

 

Required Admissions Testing

 

What standardized tests does Harvard require?

 

We value predicted A-level and IB results along with any information that helps us form a complete picture of an applicant's academic interests and strengths. However, results from these examinations cannot substitute for our required admissions testing. All applicants must submit the results of the SAT I or ACT as well as two SAT II Subject Tests. Students should not submit two Subject Tests in mathematics to meet this requirement. Candidates whose first language is not English should ordinarily not use a Subject Test in their first language to meet the two Subject Tests requirement. For information about the SATs, consult www.collegeboard.org/; for the ACT www.act.org.

Are there minimum required SAT I, ACT or SAT II scores?

 

Harvard does not have required minimum scores; however, the majority of students admitted to the College score between 650 to 800 on each section of the SAT I as well as on the SAT II Subject Tests. We regard test results as helpful indicators of academic ability and achievement when considered thoughtfully among many other factors. The Admissions Committee understands that international students may not be as familiar with the SAT and ACT formats as American citizens. Nevertheless, international students who distinguish themselves for admission often present the Committee with exceptionally strong standardized testing by any measure.

Which SAT II Subject Tests should students take?

 

Applicants must take two SAT II Subject Tests and may choose any two subjects, using the following guidelines:

 

• The English Language Proficiency Test (ELPT) is not acceptable.
  
• Students should not submit two Subject Tests in mathematics to meet this requirement.
  
• Candidates whose first language is not English should ordinarily not use a Subject Test in their first language to meet the two Subject Tests requirement.
  
• Applicants may wish to convey the breadth of their academic interests by taking tests in a variety of subjects.
  

What if English is not a student's first language?

 

A strong knowledge of English is essential for successful study at Harvard, including the ability to understand and express thoughts quickly and clearly. We require the results of the SAT I or ACT and two SAT II Subject Tests for all candidates. The SAT II English Language Proficiency Test (ELPT) is not acceptable. Students are not required to submit the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) unless the SAT exams are not available in their current location. Candidates whose native language is not English should not take either of their two SAT II tests in their native language.

Must students sitting for GCE A-levels or other international credentials submit SAT I and SAT II scores?

 

Yes. We realize students educated abroad may be unfamiliar with these examination formats, but all applicants must submit the results of the SAT I or ACT and two SAT II Subject Tests.

What if students cannot take the SAT or ACT in their country?

 

The SAT I and SAT II tests are now given in almost all countries. We realize that students might have to travel some distance or might have to plan for testing long in advance, but these test results are required tools in our analysis of applications. In our competitive applicant pool, students lacking these test results are usually denied admission. Foreign students in one of the very few countries where the SAT is not available (for example, China) may submit alternative testing such as the Graduate Record Examination. For more information about the GRE, consult www.gre.org. Students in such countries should also take the TOEFL.

Does Harvard consider scores from previous administrations of the SAT I, ACT or SAT II?

 

Yes.

If a student takes the required tests more than once, which results does Harvard consider?

 

We consider a student's best test scores, but it is generally our experience that taking tests more than twice does not improve scores noticeably.

[Nan in Mass]

Or second option (posted here to save confusion) - Contact Clonlara (which is a non-religious cover school) and ask them if they will issue a US diploma for coursework taken through a French program of study. http://www.clonlara.org/home/international%20

 

There are, of course, many other options. But as someplace to start, I would ask here.

 

Nan

[Joan in GE]

At the International School of Geneva they give:

 

American High School Diploma AND the IB (for those who have done it)....

 

First, not everyone does the IB. Some do just some of the courses - I guess it would be like doing AP exams or something.

 

Since everyone has done enough coursework to get a Diploma - generally speaking, they give those too. :-)

 

Since they are not in one state, I guess they wouldn't have a state history..and don't know what their other requirements are...

 

I wouldn't recommend the school due to reputation and high prices, but probably there are similar policies in American high schools where they are doing the IB....

 

When the kids were in a charter school in CA the school explicitly stated that they could not be simultaneously enrolled in any other schooling option. BUT, the charter schools are affiliated with the public school system. I believe this is primarily a funding issue. This was several years ago though, and the rules/laws governing home ed (in every state!) are often in flux.

 

Thanks for expanding my knowledge! The value of the hive. There is always more to learn...

 

Joan

[Laura Corin]

At the International School of Geneva they give:

 

American High School Diploma AND the IB (for those who have done it)....

 

Everyone does the IB, but the school can also produce US-style transcripts based on the same course work for those who need them.

 

Laura

[garddwr]

Ester Maria - This might be as simple as getting a French bacc and then applying to a US university with the French bacc. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

 

 

I agree with this. If your student graduates from high school overseas, there is no need to simultaneously complete an American style diploma. Universities enroll foreign students all the time. Some examples from my family:

 

Older sister graduated with French Baccalaureate, she did take SAT (maybe at the American school); she had a transcript from the French Lycee, and recommendations as required (although the concept proved a bit difficult to get across--especially the fact that the recommendations were supposed to highlight the student's strengths!) She attended Stanford U. A younger brother and sister graduated from Swedish schools--one with an IB, the other from a music conservatory type school. Both attended university in the States. I graduated from an American school in Europe with an IB diploma; navigating the US college admissions process was certainly easier that way, as I had the standard diploma and the school offered SAT and AP tests--but you didn't have to be a student at the school to sign up for the tests. I did take a couple of AP's for subjects I didn't have classes in. I do consider my school issued High School diploma and my IB diploma to be separate--the requirements for the first were acquiring a certain number of credits over four years of high school, the requirements for the second were completing required IB work (such as the extended essay) and passing the exams--while some of the classes overlap, the diploma requirements did not overlap at all.

Because European school systems are so different, it can be helpful to have some American style documentation--certainly SAT, possibly AP's, some of my siblings did EPGY classes online. One challenge we saw was that European grading systems (except for Sweden) tended to be significantly more demanding than American--French teachers don't like to give A's, at least not at the school we were at! (I was in middle school at that time). But many American universities, especially the top tier schools, are aware of the discrepancies.

Good luck! I would love to take my kids overseas for a few years some time.

 

--Sarah

[Joan in GE]

The problem is that, if I gather things correctly, to have a "US matriculation" she would need a completed course of studies, because there is no exact equivalent to Bac in the American system. Unless she took APs / SATs / etc. as an external candidate? I first thought of that option, but I have no idea how it works.

 

I know some kids who applied to a US school with a Swiss maturite. It was evaluated by some organization in the US that evaluates the value of foreign degrees/paperwork. Because it is so unknown, they actually gave it not such a good rating, and they had to get it re-evaluated. They did then get accepted...

 

Probably a French bacc is better known, since more French candidates probably go to the US...

 

For AP's and SAT's here, they were done at international schools or other types of private schools.

 

Joan

[Deb in NZ]

I would check with a few universities that you would expect her to apply to as to what entry requirements they have. Here in NZ the universities list a varity of secondary school qualifications that they accept (NCEA, Cambridge, IB, SATs, etc.) Even if a student has none of the above, there are a couple alternative paths to university entrance.

 

JMHO,

[Laura in Torino]

Ester Maria, I don't know if you are still considering this, or where in Italy you live, but the American School of Milan has been willing to allow our daughter to take American tests as a private candidate. The contact, Andrew Newton, is a very pleasant man. Message me if you'd like more info.

 

Probably other American schools would allow outside candidates as well.

 

I agree with the others. Most US schools don't require a diploma, and have their own requirements posted on their sites. They usually want ACTs, SATs, or SAT IIs. It often throws people in Europe for a loop when they hear this, but it's just a different kind of system.

 

And most regard the bac fairly highly.