Just thought I'd post an update on what has transpired with the whole European credential situation. With regret, we have finally decided to enroll our daughter in a full-time IB school for the next two years. After trying by every means we knew to get the authorities here in Italy to acknowledge the requirements listed on their own website for recognizing American educational credentials, we had to admit our chances of success were very slim. It wasn't just a matter of documentation, but of finding any navigable path at all. Even as listed, the requirements are onerous to an American high school student living in Italy; in addition to two further years (13 total) of AP classes these requirements would have required her to return to the US to attend college for at least one additional year before entering a higher ed program in Italy. But we were given no reassurance at all, despite many meetings, that even this path would be recognized. In addition, the requirements for each European country are different and we had trouble getting the information we needed about each. Finally we reluctantly acknowledged that the IB program was the simplest and least stressful (and perhaps the only practicable) way to qualify her to attend a European university or conservatory. All countries, including the US, recognize the IB. While difficult, it would take a year less to complete. And she could continue to live at home while completing it. We have been enthusiastic home educators for twelve years now and would very much liked to have continued. I have to admit I shed more than a few tears when I realized we'd have to put her in school. But even I had to acknowledge that, due to onerous and ambiguous requirements, the past year really didn't feel much like home education. It felt like someone else (or more than one someone else) was leading us and not even telling us where we needed to go. I didn't mind being a pioneer and working hard, but I didn't think I should continue to homeschool at the expense of my daughter's own well-being and future. I hope that someone with a little more support (maybe in an easier country) and a few more years advance notice will soon find a way to qualify American homeschoolers for European education. I was hoping to do it. But I have to admit that moving to Italy on relatively short notice, not really by choice, and then trying to figure out how to qualify by several different countries' standards at the end of my daughter's high school education, and not in English, was more than I could do. A woman, even a stubborn and enthusiastic American homeschooling mom who loves what she does, is not an island. But I'm very glad for the twelve years of homeschooling we had.

I found this today in LaStampa and thought it would be a good addition to the list: http://matutor.scuola.zanichelli.it/base/ It's online practice for the math portion of the maturita', plus previous tests. Buona lavora!

Have you watched all the cosmology/astronomy videos on Khan Academy yet? My daughter watches them for fun during lunch, just because she enjoys having her mind blown by super massive black holes, scales of the universe, and theories about a possible fourth dimension ;-). You can do as little or as much as you want, or add it to something else. Also, I agree about the wisdom of giving yourself some time to get used to a new culture. It does take a lot of energy, especially since your husband will need extra help, too. I hope it goes well!

I have to admit that the C2 part went by me the first time, because I assumed B2. My daughter only had to pass Italian to B2 to start the conservatory, I think, and she must have just squeaked by. She got better once all her classes were in Italian, but I'm still not sure she's a C2! Amazing how they can turn on the mental juice when they have to, isn't it? And I hear you on the financial aid. I'm not counting on it! And Laura C., yes, there are good conservatory options outside of London, I think. I've got someone who used to conduct in the UK checking on the strings programs.

Oh, yes, I forgot about that! I rather did like the word "subjects," though. I think the reason I tend to say "school" is so that I won't say university, but also to distinguish from the type of conservatory that doesn't have any requirements except being in line for solo career/household name status (yikes!). I'm using it in the US sense. But you're right, of course, that it's not used in Europe, and that college is used both in the US and UK to refer to a subdivision within a university, so I'll keep that in mind when talking to people in the UK. My sloppy American habits could be quite confusing!

Absolutely. We've seen this already. It makes a huge difference. Otherwise, it feels like you're constantly reinventing the wheel, which is how I've felt like for about the past year. We are, however, slowly but surely, making progress.

Thanks, Laura. Well, that is a thorough page, isn't it? Admittedly, I have a headache at the moment and couldn't look at it that long, but I looked up "national," and I think it means I have to be a citizen of an EU country, though I wasn't entirely sure because it said "citizen or national." Perhaps it's worth a talk with the school, though. There's got to be some advantage to the mountain of paperwork we did to get residency here, and to paying all those European taxes!

I don't know the answer, but I posted the same question about Potter's School chemistry on my online math placement thread, so I look forward to seeing what people have to say. Evolution or lack thereof wouldn't matter so much for chemistry anyway, would it?

They don't care about the diploma accreditation? Wow, that could make a difference of thousands of dollars in umbrella school fees! Of course, I'll need to check that out for the schools we're most interested in. I'm getting extra documentation ready anyway. What you're saying about the American admissions officer surprises me, and I hope it's true. I have yet to find such a person, and wonder if it's because conservatories are usually smaller than universities. The director here candidly said she'd never had an Americans apply before, and was shocked to hear that the US doesn't have a European style exit exam. So far, our other experiences have been similar, though sometimes at least the contact person speaks English (not here). But it's good to know that there are American admissions people out there, and we'll keep trying to find them. Asta, may I ask another question? If you are an American who was talking to British schools, did you run into much higher fees because of American citizenship? The requirements on the Royal Academy websites seem clear and doable compared to elsewhere in Europe, yet with the non-EEA fees plus living expenses, the schools seem as expensive as US conservatories. If I thought that being an EU resident (and taxpayer, ouch) would somehow exonerate us from those double-ish outsider fees, I'd be much more keen dd applying. And yes, there is that language thing! That's one reason we're trying to figure out which schools are on the shortlist now. A romance language might be learnable, since dd now understands her classes given in Italian well enough. But with German, in particular, she'd be starting from scratch, so best to get started soon if it looks like a real possibility. Joan, I had sent you an e-mail as you suggested on one thread, but I'm not entirely sure it went through. If you're busy and your box is full, no problem, but I just wanted to make sure it even sent. Again, thanks for the responses, everyone!

Woohoo, thanks! Lots of stuff to go through here, and I will. Meanwhile, does anyone have experience with specific math or chemistry offerings/teachers from The Potter's School or Scholars Online?

Thanks, momof2cm! I did look at the linked brochures (at least the parts I could read), and they do say to present "proof of university certification." This is, of course, standard fare for Europeans and means exit exam results, but it requires interpretation for Americans, especially homeschooled ones. It's true that conservatories are separate from universities, but they almost all require academic qualifications. Conservatory entrance exams are necessary as well. Since music isn't often a big part of the various secondary school curricula, there has to be some way to test skill level and theoretical knowledge. At any rate, I'm still working on making a short list and making contacts in various countries, so we'll know where to concentrate in asking about what extra certification we need. I'll put these on the list of conservatories to ask about. What instrument did/does your dad play? Is he still an professional or active musician?

My dd needs a good online math course for next year, with support, and I'm honestly not sure what course we need. Dd previously worked with a tutor and skipped around on topics including a good bit of trig and calculus. What she understands, she seems to understand well, but I seriously doubt she got every facet of trig and precalculus up to that point. So, first question: Does anyone know of an online placement test she could take? And secondly: Given that she's likely to place anywhere between algebra II and calculus (but most likely somewhere in between those), and given that I can't teach her confidently anymore, in what sort of online class is she most likely to get good support? The method she had been using with the tutor was very visual and conceptual. She enjoyed it, and it was successful, so for the course, something similar would be good. She isn't likely to go into math/science, but still, we'd like the best course we can find and that she can reasonably do. Thanks! Laura

Ester Maria, I don't know if you are still considering this, or where in Italy you live, but the American School of Milan has been willing to allow our daughter to take American tests as a private candidate. The contact, Andrew Newton, is a very pleasant man. Message me if you'd like more info. Probably other American schools would allow outside candidates as well. I agree with the others. Most US schools don't require a diploma, and have their own requirements posted on their sites. They usually want ACTs, SATs, or SAT IIs. It often throws people in Europe for a loop when they hear this, but it's just a different kind of system. And most regard the bac fairly highly.

Thanks, Laura! I'm mostly thinking of this as a possible English-language equivalent of the maturita'. If they gave us no other choice, at least it beats that! Here's what the Italian website says about British qualifications: "The British secondary qualifications normally accepted consist of 6 passes in different subjects, at least 3 of which must rank at advanced level. The 3 A-levels must be related to the chosen Italian programme (course requirements). An A-level in Italian is valid for admission to any programme, independently of its subject field." If we pursued this, I guess we'd have to figure out how to do that lab component. Then, we'd have to see if A-levels were accepted in other European countries as well. The reason for not considering education in the UK itself (such as the Royal Academies, which quite seem do-able), is that the UK adds a pretty steep international fee for American citizens, at least as I understand the qualifications, making the Royal Academies just as expensive as US conservatories. If that's the case, we'd be more comfortable with the US. As for sitting for APs, we can do that here. In fact, we'll be traveling to Milan tomorrow for dd's first AP exam.

Joan, I've been reading these threads all day. Very interesting! Thanks!

For what it's worth, I'm adding the classical school syllabus for the Italian maturita'. It's in Italian, of course, but it's so Latinate that it's fairly comprehensible, and more so if you read French or Spanish. http://www.edscuola.it/archivio/norme/programmi/classico.html Italy has several types of licei, the most popular being the liceo classico and the liceo scientifico. And then, below the liceo level, there are istruzione tecnica and istruzione profesionale. For Americans, the requirements are unclear, and that's one reason I've been posting here lately. I did find this page: http://www.study-in-italy.it/php5/study-italy.php?lang=EN&idorizz=3&idvert=39 They seem to be in the process of updating it, though, so I'll have to see if I can find the relevant page in Italian and do a rough translation. (Having followed the links and read the Italian, I don't think anything has changed here. But they do seem to ask not ONLY for a US diploma and 4 APs, but for another year of college as well. Why, I have no idea.) My daughter is interested in music study, which is different from regular universities and polytechnics. In conservatory, you have a pre-accademico (high school program), a triennio (3 years, like undergrad), and a biennio (2 years, like grad school). You can start the triennio early, but you can't graduate until you get your high school diploma. We're having qualification problems, because we can't figure out what they'll accept. They Italian consulate in NYC told me last week that dd could take the GED, and the schools have discretion as to what else to require (like APs). We'll see. One reason everything is so unclear right now, all over Europe, is that the Bologna Process, a new EU standardizing reform legislation, has just been implemented. It's changing everything here, and so procedures for my daughter, who is in her first year here, are different from those governing her peers who started their programs a few years ago. No one understands them clearly yet, which is one reason it's hard to get a straight answer. The problem for any musician, of course, is how to fulfill all these requirements and still practice enough to be any good...

I know this is an old thread, but I'll just add the little I know about Italy: Homeschooling is legal, but most people don't realize it. You're supposed to follow the national curriculum and take tests. Leaving age is 16. That is, you're no longer required to go to school. But for any sort of further study, you need the maturita,' the national exit exam. That's usually taken at about 19, or after the fifth year of high school. I do know that my daughter would need a diploma of some sort (if you read my other posts, you know that this is in flux) to graduate from conservatory and to audition for any orchestra. There's a nascent homeschooling movement, which seems to be comprised mostly of people who either want to raise their children with more freedom, or who are avoiding some particular problem they see with the schools. They mostly have young children, at least for now. Some are dual nationality families. When I say we homeschool, I say it with the confidence of a crazy American, so I haven't had any shocked reactions, but some people do say something like, "I've heard of that, but it's not common here." Italians are generally warm, affectionate, polite people, so I wouldn't expect them to make a big stink about it if they did disagree. Also, they know that my daughter goes to a conservatory, so they probably assume we're doing it to allow her a flexible schedule for practice. She tells her Italian friends at the conservatory that she does online American school (which at this point is pretty much true), and they say, "Cool!" Then again, in Italy generally, there is a tradition of a sort of double narrative: That is, there's an official way of doing things, and then there are all the ways people actually get around the official way. I don't think they trust authority very much, though they do seem to trust tradition. So there's a bit of sympathy in the mindset, if no actual desire to homeschool. I don't know of any studies, but if I find any, I'll post them.

Saw these after I posted: Yes, I think they do fail people more here, and that the learning is more rote and less supported. I hear that anyone with an exit exam can get into European unis, but getting out can take many years. I'm less worried about music than I would be about, say, chemistry, because I know my daughter is extremely motivated, but if she fails, she fails. It could happen. And yes, she did have to pass a language exam to get into the school here. And she'd likely have to pass another one to get into the schools in most other European countries (maybe not the Netherlands or Finland), but watching her progress in Italian this year reassures me that it's doable, just a lot of work. And lailasmum, we have indeed thought of the A-levels. I was looking into it earlier this week, before I got sidetracked with other options. Do you happen to know if there are online courses in England that can prep for it?

Seekinghim45, it seems to me that we may be saying much the same thing, though perhaps in different words. Course descriptions and transcripts will be no problem. Truly, I've never heard of a US school wanting to see old at-home tests, but if they do, and my daughter decides to apply to a US school, we'll figure something out. Mainly, though, I was just wanting to know if anyone knew how things worked in Europe.

Replying to your questions here: Seekinghim45, we have documentation for some of the past work, but not all of it, because it's not usually needed in the US. I have always kept a daily diary and book/activity lists, plus some summaries I made at the time, but not always every paper or hour spent. Clonlara seemed to be willing to help us reconstruct what we needed to. So, I guess some classes are, like you say, "mommy records." They are usually the more reading-oriented ones. I don't know that particular Academy, but with two camps on the agenda already this summer, I unfortunately can't do one more thing. Sounds fun, though! I'll have to look it up. jjhat7, I took a look at the website, but unfortunately couldn't make heads or tails of it at the time (I was pretty tired). I'll have to have another look later. It could help if dd decides to take the A-levels, but unfortunately the Royal Academies in the UK seem to be as expensive as the American private/out-of-state colleges, at least for American citizens. They have steep "out-of-country" fees for non-EAA member countries. Joan, I replied to you on the bilingual board as well. What kind of high school documentation did you do/need? I'll keep looking for those threads and reading the boards generally, but if you happen to know what search terms would work or find links, that would be most helpful! Also, your explanation of the way the exam system works here shed a lot of light on my confusion last year about why everything concerning the conservatory happened at the last minute. That makes sense!

Dear Joan, Thanks very much for your reply, and also for your honest assessment of the Swiss conservatory you looked into. That's just the kind of info we need. If you can ask your dd's violin teacher which he schools he recommends (anywhere in Europe) for serious violinists, I would be most, most grateful! You're right that degrees don't always stack up evenly from country to country or system to system within a country. I got a whiff of this before we left the US, so I called Manhattan School of Music, where my dd was enrolled in pre-college, so see what they had to say. The answer, of course, was, "It totally depends." It no doubt depends on which US school you ask as well. We're currently making a short list of US schools for either undergrad or grad level as well, but that's an easier job than figuring out five different new systems in Europe. I'm also encouraging my dd to get some other kind of training as a back up, so it's possible that she will want to attend a different kind of school as well, but it's just too complicated to figure out all the steps simultaneously, when finding out the first step in Italy takes months! I'm becoming strangely accustomed to not knowing enough to plan ahead very far, which would have driven my former American New Yorker self crazy. I see your daughter is preparing for a competition. We rather miss those! Mine just did the one in the local school this year, because we don't know of any others yet. And we'll do a camp in Italy that is run by people from Manhattan School, and one in the US, to keep in touch and keep sharp. Thanks again!

Hello all, I posted the following thread in the college forum, and someone suggested that I post it here as well: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375981 Any help is much appreciated! We're hoping to document homeschooling (plus whatever else is needed) so that our daughter can enter a conservatory in the EU. Recommendations for specific European conservatories are welcome as well. I'm glad to see that there are people here who live in Europe!

Thank you, all who responded! I spoke with Clonlara last night, and although they are more expensive, I like them, because their process seems to be more about learning and less about checking boxes. So Gwen, you're right that we need to be prepared to document somehow, but at least with Clonlara it looks more like they'll take in-depth descriptions (which is more like what US colleges want) instead of having my daughter writing retroactive papers to show she did something. (I know I wouldn't want to have to do book reports on dozens of books I read two years ago!) But I'll have to investigate more. JJhat7, you raise a good question about other foreign students. So far as I know, the answer is that: 1) No, they don't have many foreign students--they told me as much themselves. Honestly, Italy isn't a primary destination for violinists; it's just where we happen to live. 2) The foreign students they do have are largely from China (especially vocalists) and come in via a special program that has different requirements (my guess is that it's more like an exchange program with Chinese universities), and 3) the few who do come from other countries come from other European countries, so they have taken their own exit exams. Our particular problem is that we are American, and homeschoolers. When we were investigating the move last year, I actually wrote Maya Frost, the woman who wrote The New Global Student, a book about her three daughters living and studying in South America. She was very kind, and said quite honestly that the reason the book focused on South America was that Europe was a hard nut to crack. I'd love for this diploma thing to just be a formality, as it apparently is in South America, because then my daughter could just take the GED and say, "Here's your piece of paper." But I don't think it's going to be that simple in the EU. If anyone knows otherwise, I'll be delighted to stand corrected! And yes, there is a whole certification layer for any foreign document that requires you to get everything FedExed, stamped, sealed, translated, taxed, and have your finger pricked in blood after waiting for hours for your number to come up at some office where bureaucrats glare at you over lowered glasses. But that's par for the course with immigration, especially in Italy--how well we know! We just want to make sure that we don't get all the way to that application desk just to have them send us back to the start. The whole situation is made more complicated by the fact that the people we are talking to don't speak English, and our Italian is enough to understand the general idea but not always the precise details, and as a result I'm never 100% sure what the take-home points were. And also, Italian conversations never seem to have a firm set of take-home points even when you're lucky enough to have a translator. So there's both a linguistic and a cultural gap we're trying to bridge. That's our own responsibility, we know. But hey, if I ever figure this out, I'll post details to make it easier for the rest of you! And meanwhile, if anyone has been there and has any more details for me, I'd still love to hear them!

This is my first post, so I hope it's in the right place! I did do a search, and was very pleased to see that there are people from Europe posting here, but didn't see anything exactly like what I'm looking for, so here goes: We are an American homeschooling family who moved to Italy last year from New York. My 17yo (high school junior) daughter plays violin and attends the conservatory here. She's done so well that the faculty suggested two months ago that she audition for the college level. Problem: She can enter the college conservatory program here, but she can't graduate without a diploma. Otherwise it's like she never went. Here's where it starts to get complicated. For a month, the school's director said they'd only take the Italian high school diploma, the maturita'. This is a problem for two obvious reasons: 1) My daughter hasn't studied the Italian curriculum and 2) Though she's learned a lot of Italian and takes classes in it, she's not fluent enough to do college-level exams in it yet. And if she tried to go back and cram it in, she couldn't finish her education in English, or practice violin at her current level. So we started looking at conservatories in other countries. Conservatories in the UK, Netherlands, Finland, Germany, Austria and perhaps Switzerland and France have good reputations. We started with the College Board website AP international portal and read the requirements for each country. England looks doable, but they're very expensive for US citizens. We wrote to a couple of conservatories in other countries (still need to learn more about them), but haven't heard back much, if anything. We do know, though, that many of these countries accept a high school diploma plus some number of APs (to demonstrate a year of college, since European high schools go 5 years). Very well. My daughter takes her first AP exam next week anyway. But the high school diploma is a sticking point with countries who don't know about/accept homeschooling, and don't realize that American colleges don't ask for it. In desperation, I looked up the umbrella school NARHS today and it's going to be a pain (and perhaps impossible) to document three years of work retroactively, but if I have to, I'll do it and even have my daughter write extra papers. But does anyone know if European countries accept this sort of diploma? And does anyone know if any of these countries will waive the requirement for students with several APs? Also, just this week, the director of the conservatory here said, "Bring us what you have and we'll see what we can do. Meanwhile, ask the US Embassy." I did call the Embassy and they said they don't do ed certification. Sounds like we're going to be in a typically Italian back and forth situation for a while. I'm glad the school is starting to understand where we're coming from, but we need to decide what to do about next year within the month. And regardless, it's probably going to be similar to what the other countries want. So, my questions are: Does anyone know what kinds of diplomas European countries will accept from homeschoolers, or how to get one that they will accept? Does anyone have experience with applying to European universities as a homeschooler? And does anyone have experience with European conservatories in particular? If so, I'd love to talk to you, no matter which country you're from. I have posted to expat boards, homeschooling college boards, and written every American I know who lives in Europe. No one that I know has been in this situation before, because either their kids are young and they're studying for the European exam, or they already have some college credit and can transfer in. We're in between. Sorry so long! Thanks for reading this far, and I hope this makes sense. If not, please feel free to ask clarifying questions.