How far behind level is TT anyways?

[NanceXToo]

This is me and my ds. I have been reluctant to consider TT because of all the negative hype I've heard about it, even though dh and I liked the demo we saw at the homeschool conference. I'm also reluctant to switch because I've already switched from RS to MM. I'm addressing ds's math difficulties in a different way right now, but thinking ahead to the end of MM, I am considering TT for my son after 6th grade. I know at 9 he's too young for me to decide his future, but I don't see him going into a science/math-heavy field (that's dd's 10), so TT might be just the thing for him.

 

Tara

 

And you are exactly the sort of person I hope my responses make a difference for when these threads come up. You liked the demo. So did your husband. You have a son it sounds perfect for. You think this might be the thing for him. You're probably right. But the negative hype is making you second guess yourself. You're why I post. :)

[Haiku]

I'm honestly curious - I'm not trying to criticize anyone's reactions or step on anyone's toes. I'm just trying to understand the dynamic.

 

My feeling from reading tons of threads on TT is that people who don't like TT tend to imply that TT is math for dummies and people who use TT for their kids are ensuring that their kids won't learn enough higher-level math to be successful in college. I can understand how that rouses strong passions. I wouldn't want to be told (or have implied) that the curriculum I use for my kids is watered down pablum.

 

My feeling is this: at the arithmetic level, I really don't think it matters who slowly or quickly a curriculum goes. There's really a finite body of knowledge covered by arithmetic, and I don't think it matters whether that body of knowledge is completely covered by 4th grade or by 7th grade. All that really matters is that it is covered thoroughly enough that a child can master algebra and higher math.

 

I understand concerns that TT is "lite" on higher math, but then again: some kids aren't going into math majors/careers, so do they really need meaty calculus if math is a struggle for them? AND we have seen many examples of people saying their kids completed TT and scored very high on the SAT/tested into or were successful in high-level college classes.

 

Personally, I think it's a wash. Use TT if you like it. Don't if you don't.

 

Tara

[Kari C in SC]

 

I read a quote in someones siggy one time that I can't quote word for word but the idea was that the best curriculum out there is the one that gets used.. TT every day is much better than a "better" curriculum that gets avoided or is hated and fosters a bad or defeated attitude about math.. Just my $.02

 

:iagree:

 

We have used several math programs, but came to use TT in 6th grade. We went from tears to getting it done and understanding it. My dd is doing pre-algebra this year. She does not LOVE it, but she does it and scores pretty well. The other HUGE bonus for me is that it grades. I am just not good at staying on top of that and you GOT to be on top of it with math. I learned the hard way on falling behind with grading to find that my dd was doing something wrong for weeks. My younger ds could probably skip ahead on math, but I have learned in my 13 years at this that while they may be ahead at 7 years old and you put them there - they may be in over their head 5 or 6 years down the line. So, I choose to keep him pretty close to grade level. I am sold on TT though. So glad after having tried so many different ones in the past.

[mothergooseof4]

I am going to agree that TT is NOT ahead. Perhaps if you compare it to a few other programs it is even behind. The authors have addressed that concern and state that they did not design the scope and sequence to be comparable to other curricula. It was not designed for ps, but for hsers and therefore "behind" really means nothing. And they assure that if you complete the program your child will have a full math education.

 

When I put my kids in the program I used the placement tests and placed two of my kids where it stated.....a level ahead of their "grade." My oldest placed two levels ahead of his grade but I chose to place him only one level ahead and have him only do quizzes up to the point that he scored under 90%. We found that he was able to skip only a third of that level and there was plenty to learn. He probably would have survived the level he placed in, but starting where he did built the confidence he was missing.

 

Another concern about TT is that it doesn't teach concepts or the "why" behind the math. I think that is a matter of opinion. I loved the question a pp asked, "Does your dc need the why? " I started hsing with some of the programs others consider the best at teaching concepts. My kids were in tears and I avoided math lessons. My kids just don't get some of that at this point and they all hate manipulatives. Plus I think some of it just requires higher levels of comprehension that come with age. I am a very math minded person and yet find that I only came to a full understanding of some concepts as an adult. So I introduce concepts and sometimes that clicks for them. Sometimes though it is just repetition that works for them. The "why" will come later. And we have no tears. So for my kids, focusing on "why" when they just don't get it causes frustration. We cover that but then move on to how and then cover why again later. That's why I supplement and would no matter what program I used.

 

I actually tried TT a few times before I stuck with it. I would start and then get nervous because of all of the negative comments. I would read how some felt that their dc was totally unprepared for college. But then I would read praises from others saying their dc were excelling in higher level college maths and these were in math related fields of study. How professors would even have these students help others by explaining some things the TT way. So I decided that some kids are just good at math and some aren't. Some are going to take things away from a program and their brain will just go deeper with it and some just need to know how to get it done. I remember being in 3rd grade and we had free time to write on the board. My teacher wanted to know who had been tutoring me because I was doing algebra. No one had ever shown me the things I was writing. I had simply taken what I knew and my brain went deeper. Some kids work that way and some don't. So who is to say that the ones that got to college after using TT and we're "unprepared" would have been any better off using a different program? If some kids get to college and excell after using a certain curricula and some are totally unprepared then that just tells me that some are mathematically inclined and some aren't.

 

That said, not every program works for everyone. People think differently. My kids hated some of the most popular curricula out there while I thought they made perfect sense. So if TT just doesn't work for your child then try something else. Perhaps your child needs this explained differently or at a deeper level. But, as for being behind.....behind what? We are not trying to keep up with ps. As long as everything is covered at some point and my kid gets it, that is all that matters. Place your child in the program at the point they are learning but not struggling and ignore the number on the cover.

Edited January 30, 2012 by mothergooseofthree

[DarlaS]

I am going to agree that TT is NOT ahead. Perhaps if you compare it to a few other programs it is even behind. The authors have addressed that concern and state that they did not design the scope and sequence to be comparable to other curricula. It was not designed for ps, but for hsers and therefore "behind" really means nothing. And they assure that if you complete the program your child will have a full math education.

 

 

:iagree:

 

They're not trying to meet any state standards, or one up another publisher by covering algebraic concepts in second grade etc. (so naturally, there was going to be a backlash among some members of the home school community) It's solid. It's thorough. It's developmentally appropriate. Coming from a more advanced program, you're going to want to go up a level or two. If that bothers you, don't switch.

 

I never used it below pre-algebra, and my oldest (my math geek) did start their algebra 1 when he was 12. No big deal.

 

It's not the be all end all of math programs. I'm using Lial's for my now 9th grader, but can see his sister using TT for high school.

[EmilyinND]

I know it's not an "advanced" math curriculum. I get that. Really.

 

And yet I always kind of hate to see it getting criticized for being so "BEHIND," potentially scaring people off from using it, and here's why:

 

At the end of last year (5th grade), after one year (our first) of using TT (at grade level, with NO supplements), my pretty non-mathy daughter took a standardized test and her total score was:

 

Total Mathematics - Stanine 7; National Percentile 82.

 

That meant she did as well as or better than 82 percent of other kids who took that standardized test nationwide (and you can be assured they used all different sorts of math curricula, not just "behind" ones like TT- yet she held her own, especially for a non-mathy kid).

 

Those scores were much improved over her previous years scores, but it wasn't just her scores that had improved by leaps and bounds that year.

 

It was her confidence in math.

It was her liking for math.

It was her willingness to do math without complaining.

Without crying.

Without hanging her head and going, "I'm no good at math. This is too hard."

 

If you have a kid who is great at math and likes math and thinks they are good at math, by all means, pick out some "advanced" math curriculum and do your thing.

 

But if you have a kid who feels like maybe they aren't so good at it, like it's hard, or if YOU aren't mathy, or if math is a daily struggle in your house, and you're tired of it, and you've been looking into TT and thinking, "Wow, that could be the answer...."

 

In my experience...you're right. Go for it!

 

DON'T let threads like these put you off and make you feel like, "Oh, no, it's too BEHIND, I'll ruin my kid."

 

You won't.

 

And if you don't want to take just MY word for it, check out this thread I started at the end of last year after I got those standardized test results back. Because a bunch of other people chimed in, too, with their positive results and outcomes after using TT.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259625&highlight=teaching+textbooks+standardized+test

 

But in case you don't want to click on a link or sort through all the replies on that other thread, here are some excerpts for you:

 

"We started using TT last year. This year my daughter's highest standardized test scores were in math. She does not like math at all but she is 2 years above grade level now and I believe it's because of TT. That has never been the case before.

 

My youngest son really likes math so instead of starting him with TT3 for third grade we started with level 4. He is also doing well and his highest scores were in math.

 

I am a firm believer in TT now!

 

Blessings,

Elise in NC"

 

***

 

"We love Teaching Textbooks here too.

 

Ds16 did TT Alg1, TT Alg2, and TT Geo. He took Integrated pre-calc in 10th grade at a public school and hated it. At 16yo he tested firmly into college Calculus. He used to show kids in his calculus class how to do basic algebra, because the way the ps taught it was ridiculous.

 

He is a mathy kid, and the program worked for him too. He just went at a faster pace than non-mathy kids would.

 

He excelled at all of his assesment tests, and understands how to use math out side of the text book."

 

***

 

"My Teaching Textbooks graduate got a 212 on his PSAT (98th percentile in math) and is doing well in Calculus.

 

I don't even think he quite finished Algebra 2"

 

***

 

"I'll add fuel to this; my son has used TT 4, 5, and 6. He scored in the 97th percentile in math on the Terra Nova this year. Last year he was 96th percentile on the Terra Nova, after using TT. Just so you know it is consistent, not just a fluke. I would not consider him a mathy child at all, he has always been a very strong reader, writer, and talker LOL. He is good at math, but it isn't his strongest area.

YAY TT!"

 

***

 

"My youngest son loves TT! He's used TT Math 5, 6, and 7 and is now using TT PreAlgebra.

 

He earned perfect scores on the math section of his 6th grade CAT test just a few weeks ago!"

 

***

 

"We also just got our scores back from the CAT 5.

DD 12 Math Computation-94/ Math concepts- 91..She is one who has struggled in the past with math.

DS 8 Math computation-95/ Math concepts-96...

I have one in college that used TT all the way through Pre-calc and she did well in her college calculus class.

Can you tell I am sold."

 

***

 

And those are just some of the threads about testing (there are more, go check the thread out for yourself if you're interested). You should read all the posts about kids gaining confidence, about math no longer being hated, feared, a struggle and so on. Again, I GET that it's not for everyone. But I HATE seeing the people it IS for being scared off by stuff that isn't even necessarily true or half as true as people make it out to be. This is a GREAT program for a lot of kids. I know, mine's one of them.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Thank you Thank you! My ds in 7th is non mathy & he is doing TT7. It has worked out so much better than Saxon & MUS for us. I love TT.

[EmilyinND]

 

 

But, as for being behind.....behind what? We are not trying to keep up with ps. As long as everything is covered at some point and my kid gets it, that is all that matters.

 

:iagree: Yes!! Would it be weird if I said I love you for this comment??:D

[akmommy]

It isn't "behind." There are way too many testimonials from people whose dc have done well on standardized tests and in college and the whole thing for me to believe it is "behind." :)

 

:iagree:

 

None of my kids scored advanced in math on our state standardized tests until we switched to TT. After a year of TT on grade level one child scored in the advanced level and the other in the upper end of proficient. Until then math had always been our biggest struggle. My Dd entered PS in 7th fully ready and capable for the standard 7th grade math program used by the school district. No, she's not advanced in math but, I don't think that had much to with the curricula used. She's just not a mathy kid.

[Elm in NJ]

My 5th grade twins went from CLE 5 to TT7. They love it. That being said, I might do Lials Basic Math next year instead of TT prealgebra because of the $$.

[Bloggermom]

I am very thankful for this thread. I have decided I WILL be using Teaching Textbooks next year for my soon-to-be 6th grader.

[mommymilkies]

Well, you know what? You don't get to ask a question on a public message board and then dictate whether people answer it with a "simple yes or no" rather than explaining their reasoning behind it, or responding to other people and elaborating and so on. That's ridiculous. And no, you did NOT phrase it as "Is TT behind or am I seeing things," but even if you DID phrase it that way, people could still say, "No, I disagree, and here's why." That's how a forum works. People discuss things. If you don't want a discussion, don't post on a forum. I am flabbergasted as to why you would be so bothered as to people posting their various opinions and experiences with this program. Why would this POSSIBLY be so upsetting to you that some people are posting that they had great experiences with it and that it made a positive difference in their children's lives?! (WITHOUT putting them "behind" no less!) I explained again and again that it wasn't out of defensiveness and I explained where I was coming from. If my particular response wasn't helpful to YOU, you could always just skim over it and read the next person's, but, again, my particular response might be helpful to somebody ELSE reading this thread. I also completely disagree with you about this thread getting off track. It was completely on track, in my humble opinion. Oh wait, maybe I should throw in a kilt pic to keep it even MORE on track, because that's the way we do things here! :P

 

I actually have seen this opinion often on this board, and I have been attacked more than once for giving suggestions further than simply the original question. Perhaps this should be clarified in the UA? Thank you for all the info on here. I think I might get TT as a supplement after reading this. We love Singapore, but I need my kids to do more independent work with math practice. They love computer games. Do you think level 5 Singapore would equate to 6 of TT for a supplement?

[NanceXToo]

My 5th grade twins went from CLE 5 to TT7. They love it. That being said, I might do Lials Basic Math next year instead of TT prealgebra because of the $$.

 

I agree that it isn't cheap! Of course, one benefit is that it holds its resale value really well! I tend to look for it used (possible with some patience lol) and save a few bucks, it always seems to sell fast and for not a WHOLE lot less than new price though)!

 

I actually have seen this opinion often on this board, and I have been attacked more than once for giving suggestions further than simply the original question. Perhaps this should be clarified in the UA? Thank you for all the info on here. I think I might get TT as a supplement after reading this. We love Singapore, but I need my kids to do more independent work with math practice. They love computer games. Do you think level 5 Singapore would equate to 6 of TT for a supplement?

 

Now that I can't answer as I've never seen or used Singapore myself!

[Dolphin]

I actually have seen this opinion often on this board, and I have been attacked more than once for giving suggestions further than simply the original question. Perhaps this should be clarified in the UA? Thank you for all the info on here. I think I might get TT as a supplement after reading this. We love Singapore, but I need my kids to do more independent work with math practice. They love computer games. Do you think level 5 Singapore would equate to 6 of TT for a supplement?

 

I am sorry you have been attacked, it does sometimes happen. Most of the time as long as it still ties into the thread, people do like to discuss topics on this board.

 

If your dc like computer games SM has ones that tie directly into that program. I would not confuse TT with a computer game. As for the level, have your kids do the placement and samples. That way you find out what level they should be at and if they respond well to the program.

[wapiti]

Do you think level 5 Singapore would equate to 6 of TT for a supplement?

 

As for equating, one might want to distinguish between sequence of topics and depth/rigor of practice problems. I know of at least one poster who uses TT as extra practice with SM and a number of other math programs, so perhaps she'll pipe in to respond to your question :D. There may be more cost-effective approaches to extra practice (such as free worksheets or the SM "extra practice" workbooks, or on-line "games" such as thatquiz and others). If you're looking for extra practice with instruction or word problems, there are other economical possibilities as well (MM Blue or Khan Academy).

[mommymilkies]

Well...I use Japanese Math, Singapore, Saxon, MEP, and RightStart. So I don't "need" extra, but my kids like work on the computer or directly with me. :lol: My ds has some fine motor issues but is fine with a computer, so something that he can do on there would be great for extra practice. Otherwise, I walk him through it all on our giant whiteboard wall. I only have so much time!

 

Does anyone have a link for Singapore computer programs?

 

Ok, they did the placements and only missed 1 of Math 6. We haven't done multiple digit division (547/14) yet. So I'm thinking that would be a good level to do for review practice.

Edited January 30, 2012 by mommymilkies

[mommymilkies]

How much math curriculum can one family consume? Its not a contest to buy and try to implement as much as possible.

 

TT has its place. Its a good sturdy program useful for a lot of kids. Other kids would not find it compelling and it would not be appropriate for that child.

 

TT was a lifesaver for my dyslexic kid. Im thinking of buying the alg 1 for him now. Lial's book is definitely NOT dyslexic friendly though he doesn't mind the work. It challenges him, but for this child, simple problems are better. Sequencing is the bugaboo of the dyslexic brain and alg is all about sequence.

 

It's not a consumption thing. Some work better with some of my kids' learning styles, some do not work. I have to go with a gifted student and two kids with delays or LDs to make it work. Before when I just used MUS, they were so behind you wouldn't believe it. In one year since using Singapore with supplements for less than 30 mins a day some days of the week, they are now "advanced" and like math. But I am finding a need to devote more time to the younger kids than what I am currently because of a lot of hand holding. So if that was directed towards me, then that is why I was looking at TT for my almost 10 yo to use for practice independently. :)

 

I mostly use the extras for review, atm, anyway. So if I had something else they could do independently for review, then I could get rid of some of my others and clear up much needed shelf space. Because they like MEP for practice together (fun!), JM for geometry, SM for understanding, Saxon for drill. We don't use all of all of them if that makes sense. I have yet to find one I'm 100% happy with. Bits and pieces.

Edited January 30, 2012 by mommymilkies

[Dolphin]

 

Does anyone have a link for Singapore computer programs?

 

 

 

http://www.singaporemath.com/CD_ROMs_s/26.htm

[mommymilkies]

Thanks. Does not run on Mac, though. :(

[wapiti]

It's not a consumption thing. Some work better with some of my kids' learning styles, some do not work. I have to go with a gifted student and two kids with delays or LDs to make it work. Before when I just used MUS, they were so behind you wouldn't believe it. In one year since using Singapore with supplements for less than 30 mins a day some days of the week, they are now "advanced" and like math. But I am finding a need to devote more time to the younger kids than what I am currently because of a lot of hand holding. So if that was directed towards me, then that is why I was looking at TT for my almost 10 yo to use for practice independently. :)

 

I mostly use the extras for review, atm, anyway. So if I had something else they could do independently for review, then I could get rid of some of my others and clear up much needed shelf space. Because they like MEP for practice together (fun!), JM for geometry, SM for understanding, Saxon for drill. We don't use all of all of them if that makes sense. I have yet to find one I'm 100% happy with. Bits and pieces.

 

While every kid is different of course, my 10 y.o. was pretty independent wtih MM, with all the teaching right there on the page. The practice problems of MM are apt to be similar to SM, though maybe you're looking to add a different style from what your child is learning with SM? For supplementing with MM, I'd look into the Blue series (organized by topic).

 

eta:

http://www.singaporemath.com/CD_ROMs_s/26.htm

Thanks for posting - I wasn't aware of this. I may have to post a s/o thread. Edited January 30, 2012 by wapiti

[Mommy22alyns]

Only here do we have throwdowns over math. :auto:

 

(I am smiling as I say that, BTW!)

[mommymilkies]

While every kid is different of course, my 10 y.o. was pretty independent wtih MM, with all the teaching right there on the page. The practice problems of MM are apt to be similar to SM, though maybe you're looking to add a different style from what your child is learning with SM? For supplementing with MM, I'd look into the Blue series (organized by topic).

 

eta:

Thanks for posting - I wasn't aware of this. I may have to post a s/o thread.

 

My kids literally cried over MM. I liked it (there's another thread where I went into detail), but they cried at the very sight of it. They found it tedious and overkill.

[Mandylubug]

My kids literally cried over MM. I liked it (there's another thread where I went into detail), but they cried at the very sight of it. They found it tedious and overkill.

 

:iagree: my boys definitely cried over it... I am having to use it with my 1st grade girls and they just are NOT getting simple addition. They get manipulatives but this curriculum is not assisting to establish the addition sentence to manipulative/hands on experience connection :/ I am actively seeking something else until I can get them on TT3

[Veritaserum]

:iagree: my boys definitely cried over it... I am having to use it with my 1st grade girls and they just are NOT getting simple addition. They get manipulatives but this curriculum is not assisting to establish the addition sentence to manipulative/hands on experience connection :/ I am actively seeking something else until I can get them on TT3

 

CLE is what I use for my kids who don't do well with MM. :) It's cheap and I like it better than TT (tried that, too).

[Mandylubug]

CLE is what I use for my kids who don't do well with MM. :) It's cheap and I like it better than TT (tried that, too).

 

I have looked and am looking at that program... I am at a loss though, I don't feel like I need to "restart" a grade 1 curriculum but don't want to throw them to grade 2 next year.. we aren't even finished with 1a with MM because they just aren't getting it.. perhaps I should just start over with another curricula. Ha ha.

[mommymilkies]

I have looked and am looking at that program... I am at a loss though, I don't feel like I need to "restart" a grade 1 curriculum but don't want to throw them to grade 2 next year.. we aren't even finished with 1a with MM because they just aren't getting it.. perhaps I should just start over with another curricula. Ha ha.

 

Maybe have them do the placement tests for CLE? I really liked MUS Alpha for that stage and RightStart math, IMHO, is the best for teaching it, but it is time consuming and expensive.

[Veritaserum]

I have looked and am looking at that program... I am at a loss though, I don't feel like I need to "restart" a grade 1 curriculum but don't want to throw them to grade 2 next year.. we aren't even finished with 1a with MM because they just aren't getting it.. perhaps I should just start over with another curricula. Ha ha.

 

A nice thing about CLE is that you can start in the middle. Each level has 10 LightUnits (workbooks). The placement test and scope & sequence can help you figure out where to start. You can order just the workbooks you want from each level. :) You could also start with 101 and skip the review sections so that you can do more than one lesson per day until you reach stuff they haven't learned before.

[Mommy22alyns]

I agree, it's easy to start in the middle with CLE. And don't forget the placement tests!