s/o Christians go to heaven? What about the earth? Psalm 37, Matthew 5 etc.

[Lovedtodeath]

Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth and they will reside forever upon it.

 

Matthew 5:5 the meek shall inherit the earth

 

I would like to hear your views. If I am raptured at the return of Christ then will I stay in heaven?

 

What then of the earth?

[tntgoodwin]

Well there are differing views on when/if a rapture occurs. But, as I understand it, those who are raptured then come back and rule with Christ when Christ returns a third time to rule for the millenium.

 

Someone let me know if I am way off base here.

[Joanne]

Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth and they will reside forever upon it.

 

Matthew 5:5 the meek shall inherit the earth

 

I would like to hear your views. If I am raptured at the return of Christ then will I stay in heaven?

 

What then of the earth?

 

Maybe "God" was simply speaking largely, metaphorically, with intentional hyperbole to make a point?

 

Why does it have to be so complicated with heavy literalism? In fact, that detracts from the meaning/truth/guidelines.

 

In Matthew, Jesus was speaking in riddles - on purpose. He was using a literary technique to enhance communication. It's not supposed to be literal. Psalms are songs and poetry; absolutely not meant to be literal.

 

Why do we keep having to strip the Bible of the ambiguity in order for God to be real?

[lionfamily1999]

It seems to me that Revelations says we all come back from heaven to live on Earth with God.

 

But then, :shrug:, I figure as long as we end up with Him it won't really matter if we're in the Bahamas or strolling streets of gold :p

[PeacefulChaos]

Well there are differing views on when/if a rapture occurs. But, as I understand it, those who are raptured then come back and rule with Christ when Christ returns a third time to rule for the millenium.

 

Someone let me know if I am way off base here.

 

This is our view, as well, in a nutshell.

[Dustybug]

I believe that when "believers" die they go to heaven. When Christ comes back (Second Coming) he will bring those back with him to earth. I believe that he will reign on earth and the earth will be restored back to perfection. I think that heaven is a holding place till that time.

 

There are plenty of scriptures that talk about this that are not allegorical.

 

 

:iagree:

[tntgoodwin]

My view is that after the Tribulation, Christ will return with the dead believers who were in heaven, and the living believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air as He comes down to the earth. Then He will reign for 1000 years (unsure if this is literal or just means a long time), after which he will defeat Satan for eternity, then judge the living and the dead.

[Jay3fer]

You could read the Left Behind series for one view of end times. :-)

We're Jewish and believe in a weird mix of bodily (earthly) AND spiritual (heavenly) "world to come."

 

But like the pp said, most of us don't spoil the message of every Biblical passage with the clunky weight of literalism. We don't know enough to understand it all, and I think most Jews would find it arrogant to sit down and describe, step by step, God's plan for the world.

 

On a practical level, however, I do have to have answers for my daughter when she asks what will happen when the sun gets old and the human race goes extinct like the dinosaurs. When that happened last week, I said, "I know that some people believe that will happen, but I believe Hashem (God) has a different plan that He is waiting to show us."

[twoxcell]

What I believe is that for now when Christians die and/or are raptured they go directly to heaven as it is now. After the tribulation and the second coming, Christ will set up his reign on earth for 1,000 years. After this time is over the heavens and earth will be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth will be made. I hope that makes sense I'm not good at typing that out.;)

Edited January 19, 2012 by twoxcell

[twoxcell]

Wanted to add that I'm not set on that interpretation that is just what I have been taught and what makes sense to me at this time.:001_smile:

[twoxcell]

 

My view is that after the Tribulation, Christ will return with the dead believers who were in heaven, and the living believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air as He comes down to the earth. Then He will reign for 1000 years (unsure if this is literal or just means a long time), after which he will defeat Satan for eternity, then judge the living and the dead.

:iagree: Something like this. Except Satan will be in holding during the 1,000 years.

[tntgoodwin]

:iagree: Something like this. Except Satan will be in holding during the 1,000 years.

 

Yes, that too.

[leeannpal]

Maybe "God" was simply speaking largely, metaphorically, with intentional hyperbole to make a point?

 

Why does it have to be so complicated with heavy literalism? In fact, that detracts from the meaning/truth/guidelines.

 

In Matthew, Jesus was speaking in riddles - on purpose. He was using a literary technique to enhance communication. It's not supposed to be literal. Psalms are songs and poetry; absolutely not meant to be literal.

 

Why do we keep having to strip the Bible of the ambiguity in order for God to be real?

 

A hearty Amen!

[Lovedtodeath]

What wonderful contributions to the conversation. Every one. Thanks.

 

My husband and I have been reading Revelation and Luke chapter 21 straight through to get a better understanding.

 

Any more thoughts?

[Celia]

I have so many thoughts about this! But no time to write until tonight. Will do so later!

[Cricket]

I believe that when "believers" die they go to heaven. When Christ comes back (Second Coming) he will bring those back with him to earth. I believe that he will reign on earth and the earth will be restored back to perfection. I think that heaven is a holding place till that time.

 

There are plenty of scriptures that talk about this that are not allegorical.

 

:iagree:

[Whereneverever]

 

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/mosynod/web/endtme-1.html. It's multipage, with a tiny next button on the bottom.

Edited January 19, 2012 by theretohere

[Onceuponatime]

Maybe "God" was simply speaking largely, metaphorically, with intentional hyperbole to make a point?

 

Why does it have to be so complicated with heavy literalism? In fact, that detracts from the meaning/truth/guidelines.

 

In Matthew, Jesus was speaking in riddles - on purpose. He was using a literary technique to enhance communication. It's not supposed to be literal. Psalms are songs and poetry; absolutely not meant to be literal.

 

Why do we keep having to strip the Bible of the ambiguity in order for God to be real?

 

:iagree:

 

I also tend to believe "heaven" is not a physical place.

[ScoutTN]

Jesus comes back on the Last Day.

All the dead are raised.

Final Judgement. Christians are justified by Christ, others face the eternal wrath of God. Every kneee hsall bow and Every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

New Heavens and New Earth - Christians with glorified bodies live in a perfect world with the Triune God forever with no sin, suffering, evil etc. A real world, tangible and sensory - not merely "spiritual".

 

 

I am amil and don't believe in the rapture. All are raised at one time.

Between now and the Last Day, Christian souls are separated from their bodies at death. Souls with God, bodies decay or subject to the "natural" forces of a fallen world (cremation etc.) The final resurrection will unite those souls with their glorified bodies.

Edited January 19, 2012 by ScoutTN

[unsinkable]

Any more thoughts?

 

Yes.

 

You should go to Divinity School.

[tntgoodwin]

Read 1 Thessalonians 4 as well.

[Lovedtodeath]

Read 1 Thessalonians 4 as well.

:thumbup1:

[Lovedtodeath]

Jesus comes back on the Last Day.

All the dead are raised.

Final Judgement. Christians are justified by Christ, others face the eternal wrath of God. Every kneee hsall bow and Every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

New Heavens and New Earth - Christians with glorified bodies live in a perfect world with the Triune God forever with no sin, suffering, evil etc. A real world, tangible and sensory - not merely "spiritual".

 

 

I am amil and don't believe in the rapture. All are raised at one time.

Between now and the Last Day, Christian souls are separated from their bodies at death. Souls with God, bodies decay or subject to the "natural" forces of a fallen world (cremation etc.) The final resurrection will unite those souls with their glorified bodies.

All of this sounds right to me except the rapture part. :) (oh, and I think that it is more complicated than 2 judgments. (Luke 12) I tried googling amil and got nothing?

[Celia]

In line with the verses you brought up in Psalm 37 and Matthew 5, I believe that meek do indeed inherit the earth. But this idea starts way back before Psalms.

 

In Genesis, Abraham is given some promises, and these promises, as we are told in Galatians 3:8, constitute the gospel. We're also told in the same chapter of Galatians that we can take part in these promises through faith in Christ.

 

Abraham was promised two main things: some land and a seed (descendant)

 

Genesis 12:1-3

 

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

The promises continue in Genesis 13:14-15

 

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

 

So this very land that Abraham was looking at was to be an eternal inheritance for the descendants of Abraham.

 

Having considered those promises, let's move on to the promises to David in 2nd Samuel 7. David, at this time, was upset that while he dwelt in a palace, God was still worshipped in a tabernacle. David then receive a message from God through Nathan that had a wonderful promise.

 

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

 

So now, we see that there has been a seed promised, a land, and a king to rule over that land.

 

We see the importance of this in the very first verse of the New Testament:

 

1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

Solomon, David's son, did build a beautiful temple for God, but Christ,as the greater Son of David is building a temple for God not of stones, but of people. Eph. 2

 

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

Now that's not to say that there won't be a physical temple when Christ returns to set up his Kingdom. There will be. The last 8 chapters of Ezekiel tell us a lot about it! Another passage that comes to mind is Micah 4

 

1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days

That the mountain of the LORD’s house

Shall be established on the top of the mountains,

And shall be exalted above the hills;

And peoples shall flow to it.

2 Many nations shall come and say,

 

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,

To the house of the God of Jacob;

He will teach us His ways,

And we shall walk in His paths.â€

For out of Zion the law shall go forth,

And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3 He shall judge between many peoples,

And rebuke strong nations afar off;

They shall beat their swords into plowshares,

And their spears into pruning hooks;

Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,

Neither shall they learn war anymore.[a]

4 But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,

And no one shall make them afraid;

For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

5 For all people walk each in the name of his god,

But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God

Forever and ever.

 

Even after Christ's ressurrection, and 40 days of being taught by Christ about the Kingdom of God, the apostles that that would be the time when the Kingdom would be restored unto Israel (Acts 1). Jesus didn't tell them that they had it all wrong. That heaven was actually the plan. Nope. He told them that he didn't know the time. Then they watched him ascend, and were told that he would return the same way.

 

I realize I didn't address the 2nd part of your question here. I'll do that in another post later this evening.

 

A couple other verses to ponder on in the meantime"

 

Dan 2

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

 

Hab. 2

14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

Ps 115

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;

But the earth He has given to the children of men.

[Whereneverever]

All of this sounds right to me except the rapture part. :) (oh, and I think that it is more complicated than 2 judgments. (Luke 12) I tried googling amil and got nothing?

 

Do you have any specific questions on amillennialism?

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Do you have any specific questions on amillennialism?

I didn't even no what it stood for. lol ;)

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Even after Christ's ressurrection, and 40 days of being taught by Christ about the Kingdom of God, the apostles that that would be the time when the Kingdom would be restored unto Israel (Acts 1). Jesus didn't tell them that they had it all wrong. That heaven was actually the plan. Nope. He told them that he didn't know the time. Then they watched him ascend, and were told that he would return the same way.

Yes. Exactly!

[Celia]

So here's my thoughts on what happens from when we die until the resurrection, and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom on earth.

 

I think that when we die, we're really dead. Not that our souls go somewhere else. I mean, think of the very first lie in the Bible - "ye shall not surely die". People haven't wanted to believe that death is a finality ever since the beginning. But apart from the hope of eternal life being given to us, it is. After that first sin, they were banned from the tree of life so they wouldn't live forever. If they had an immortal soul in them, this wouldn't have been necessary.

 

Here's some verses for support of what the Bible says death is:

 

Ecc. 9:5,For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

 

Eze. 18:20a The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (there are many references to souls dying in the Bible, thus the soul isn't immortal)

 

James 4:14b For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

 

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

 

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

 

Man was made through being formed from the dust of the ground, and to dust we shall return.

 

There isn't any consciousness in the grave, which is why it's aptly spoken of as a sleep.

 

The consistant message in Scripture is that we can gain immortality through Christ. It's not something we have naturally, but it's conditional.

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

So then, on to the resurrection. The first thing that Christ will do upon his return is to raise the dead.

 

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

If the soul did go to heaven at death, there really isn't a need for a resurrection. But Christ said that that's when our reward would be (Luke 14:14).

 

Think back again to Abraham. He was personally promised the land, and he never received any of it (Heb 11:13).

 

Also consider Acts 2. We're explicitly told that David didn't go to heaven:

 

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

 

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

1 Corithians 15 is a must-read on the resurrection. I'll quote some of it here:

 

 

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

So basically, Christ was the first to be risen from the dead to eternal life (firstfruits). All die, as we are like Adam, but those who are in Christ will be given life when he returns. He'll reign, and subdue those who oppose him (think about Micah 4, previously quoted). Finally, all who live will be his servants, and then, the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord (Hab. 2, previously quoted), and there will be no more death.

 

This belief hold in the hope of the resurrection and the millenial reign of Christ was the prevailing one for quite some time.

 

Edward Gibbon, in his work, the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire has this to say about how this all changed.

 

"The ancient and popular doctrine of the Millennium was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ. As the works of the creation had been finished in six days and their duration in their present state, according to a tradition which was attributed to the prophet Elijah, was fixed to six thousand years. By the same analogy, it was inferred that this long period of labour and contention, which now almost elapsed, would be succeeded by a joyful Sabbath of a thousand years; and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the saints and the elect who had escaped death, or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon the earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection.

 

......The assurance of such a Millennium was carefully inculcated by a succession of fathers from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, who conversed with the immediate disciples of the apostles, down to Lactantius, who was the preceptor to the son of Constantine [about 360 A.D.] It appears to have been the reigning sentiment of the orthodox believers; and it seems so well adapted to the desires and apprehensions of mankind, that it must have contributed in a very considerable degree to the progress of the Christian faith.

 

But when the edifice of the church was almost completed, the temporary support was laid aside. The doctrine of Christ's reign upon earth was a first treated as a profound allegory, was considered by degrees as a doubtful and useless opinion, and was at length rejected as the absurd invention of heresy and fanaticism." (from Chapter 13, The Progress of the Christian Religion)

 

So there's my bucket of thoughts on the matter, although I could go on for a lot longer on the topic!!!